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Old 21st March 2019, 03:20 AM   #201
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
"The government has been described as sick and uncaring by an organisation representing more than 10,000 British nationals in Europe over NHS healthcare plans for pensioners in a no-deal Brexit scenario.

British nationals who have retired to EU countries have reacted with fury to what they describe as an insulting and offensive offer by the government to cover healthcare costs for up to one year if they had applied for or are undergoing treatment before exit day."

Charming. Get diagnosed with any serious illness after no-deal Brexit day and you'd have to return to the UK for treatment, possibly on a regular basis. Smells like Hunt's work, or maybe IDS. Somebody who doesn't give a **** about others. I wonder what ******** dreamt it up?
This was the will of the people who voted to Leave remember.
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Old 21st March 2019, 03:24 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
I'm absolutely baffled. May is going for the 'Are you really, really, REALLY sure you won't back my deal?' route, despite the Commons having rejected it twice already.

And I thought I was hard of hearing, evidently May must have it even worse than me!
It only has the 1st and 3rd greatest defeats in history, surely she can rack up more of the top 10 before she can really take it seriously.
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Old 21st March 2019, 03:41 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
I'll posit the suggestion that May, who was a remainer initially, has been deliberately bolloxing this process so as to make the whole thing fail and fail spectacularly while making the ratbags like Rees-Mogg and Farage the villains of the piece. Not only will the Brexit deadline get extended, that extension will eventually go on indefinitely...on and on...until everyone realises the UK is never ever leaving at all and everyone can go back to where they were before the thing flared up.
I'm not so sure that Theresa May ever was a "true" remainer. My view is that she made a tactical and political decision to support the Remain campaign rather than it being an ideological position. When she was Home Secretary, she repeatedly said things that gave the impression that she wanted the UK to be free of EU interference in our ability to deprive people of their human rights. I think that she is a Leaver and that primary Leave motivation is to reclaim sovereignty that she feels has been lost to the EU.
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Old 21st March 2019, 03:43 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
So not driving the bus over the cliff, but backing it over the cliff while trying not to drive forward.
Yeah, with members of the ERG being forcibly held back by Anna Soubry and Rudd to stop them from tipping the bloody thing right over.
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Old 21st March 2019, 03:45 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
This was the will of the people who voted to Leave remember.
Brits abroad didn't get to vote in the referendum.
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Old 21st March 2019, 03:47 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
There are options that could be done, but are utterly unacceptable to DUP or British Parliament.

1. The backstop applies to NI only.
2. The backstop can be overturned by a referendum in NI. The referendum must have a 60% treshold to end the backstop, allow ranking of choices and must include Irish reunification as an option.

EU already suggested the first option, but Theresa May, in her infinite* wisdom, declined. I think EU might agree to the second as well, but same problem applies. DUP will never agree to it, no British PM would. There's one more I can think of:

3. Time-limit the backstop to 2100. This kicks the can down the road far enough not to be anyone's problem. It may be acceptable. It's not a good solution, but it might work. The necessary technology should be implementable before that date.

* infinitely small, unless she really is trying to stop Brexit altogether. We'll see in just over a week.

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Why not time limit it to in the year 2525?
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Old 21st March 2019, 03:48 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I'm not so sure that Theresa May ever was a "true" remainer. My view is that she made a tactical and political decision to support the Remain campaign rather than it being an ideological position. When she was Home Secretary, she repeatedly said things that gave the impression that she wanted the UK to be free of EU interference in our ability to deprive people of their human rights. I think that she is a Leaver and that primary Leave motivation is to reclaim sovereignty that she feels has been lost to the EU.
She's a career politician. Her 'ideology' is whatever, at the time, is most likely to get her elected.
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Old 21st March 2019, 03:48 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Why not time limit it to in the year 2525?
If man is still alive
if the woman can survive ...


It's too far away. So is 2100 of course, but the date isn't quite as absurd and still allows for a fig leaf for the odd MP that genuinetly wants Brexit, but is put off by the backstop (if any exist). A time limit to 2525 does not.

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Old 21st March 2019, 03:53 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
I'll posit the suggestion that May, who was a remainer initially, has been deliberately bolloxing this process so as to make the whole thing fail and fail spectacularly while making the ratbags like Rees-Mogg and Farage the villains of the piece. Not only will the Brexit deadline get extended, that extension will eventually go on indefinitely...on and on...until everyone realises the UK is never ever leaving at all and everyone can go back to where they were before the thing flared up.
I've been suggesting this since day 1 of her premiership. I'm not sure the position is accurate, the signs waver from one side to the other, most recent signs are genuinely point towards "no, this really is her best". We'll see the truth in the next eight days.

I certainly hope we're right and the Don was wrong all along
So does he, I think.

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Old 21st March 2019, 03:56 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I've been suggesting this since day 1 of her premiership.
I think a lot of people have been thinking it for quite a long time. Despite the wise advice embodied in Hanlon's Razor, the level of incompetence currently on display strains credibility almost beyond breaking point.

Dave
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Old 21st March 2019, 04:03 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
She's basically blaming parliament for all the trouble, and she doesn't say a single word of blame about Jean-Claude Juncker, Donald Tusk, Michel Barnier and the other European leaders. I believe this might indicate a certain lack of lucidity on her part.
Because the Brexit mess is the fault of May, UK parliamentarians and the UK populace.
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Old 21st March 2019, 04:05 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I think a lot of people have been thinking it for quite a long time. Despite the wise advice embodied in Hanlon's Razor, the level of incompetence currently on display strains credibility almost beyond breaking point.

Dave
But let's be honest, in the Parliamentary Incompetence ranks for the last few years she's definitely on the curve. There are too many Moggs, Johnsons and Davises (to name but three) to make her an outlier and it's a toss up between her and her predecessor for the title of "Most Damaging Prime Minister".
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Old 21st March 2019, 04:05 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Don't forget that MPs voted about a week ago to request a delay to Brexit:
Come up with a coherent plan and maybe the EU will grant it.

Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
They also rejected the UK leaving the EU without a deal by 321 to 278 votes.
Which means nothing.
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Old 21st March 2019, 04:07 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
In my opinion, she is not completely without merit, because she has been seeking what she calls an "orderly Brexit",
Syat in the customs union then. Simples.
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Old 21st March 2019, 04:08 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
What do you think everybody wanted from her and Brits? Reminder: Portion of Deal (Irish backstop) was May's idea!

We are not responsible fort terminal idiocy of Brits, that they can't agree on anything including what they want...
Don't go confusing Brexiteers with facts. Their brains might overheat.
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Old 21st March 2019, 04:09 AM   #216
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This petition to revoke article 50, started after May's speech last night, has gained nearly 750,000 signatures in 12 hours

There's so much traffic that the site is down more often than it's up.
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Old 21st March 2019, 04:11 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
It's a UK government website.

Be amazed it's ever up.
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Old 21st March 2019, 04:11 AM   #218
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A petition to revoke Article 50 has crashed out the UK Gov petitions site and has been gaining 1,500 signatures a minute.

petitions-site-crashes-after-thousands-back-call-to-revoke-article-50


And a link to the petition itself for anyone interested


It's up and down at the moment, if only we could tell how many signatures have been missed...
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Last edited by P.J. Denyer; 21st March 2019 at 04:12 AM. Reason: Eta: Ninja'd while sorting out my links!
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Old 21st March 2019, 04:12 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
There are options that could be done, but are utterly unacceptable to DUP or British Parliament.

1. The backstop applies to NI only.
2. The backstop can be overturned by a referendum in NI. The referendum must have a 60% treshold to end the backstop, allow ranking of choices and must include Irish reunification as an option.
<snip>
3. Time-limit the backstop to 2100. This kicks the can down the road far enough not to be anyone's problem. It may be acceptable. It's not a good solution, but it might work. The necessary technology should be implementable before that date.
1. Effectively a border in the Irish Sea, not acceptable to DUP and much of the Conservative and Unionist Party.
2. Which means what exactly? What replaces the backstop?
And don't munder on about magic "technological solutions"'; if these were actually possible the Brexiteers would have enumerated them and agreed to the Backstop knowing it would be a short term measure.
3. Again not acceptable to the DUP and CUP. Basing actions on possible future technological developments is stupid in the extreme.
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Old 21st March 2019, 04:13 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Nice attempt to excuse Corbyn's childish behavior. he damaged himself quite a bit with that stunt. Corbyn does a great job of undeerminng his own credibtility without May getting involved.
Imagine what a strong position a competent Labour with a good leader could be in right now...
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Old 21st March 2019, 04:15 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I think a lot of people have been thinking it for quite a long time. Despite the wise advice embodied in Hanlon's Razor, the level of incompetence currently on display strains credibility almost beyond breaking point.

Dave
Yeah. Another thing, if you wanted to stop Brexit and excise it from British politics ... that's how you do it. No really, if she wanted to stop leaving the EU from being a major driving force in British politics there is no better way but to make it a farce to be laughed at derisively for generations to come.

The problem could be that Parliament isn't playing the game as it should. Corbyn is not interested in opposing Brexit, the voters aren't keen to trust Corbyn with tying his own shoelaces (with good reason) and Brexiteer propaganda swayed large sections of the Tory party towards a no deal Brexit, promising a free unicorn to everyone.

A genuine option is her plan backfired and badly.

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Old 21st March 2019, 04:19 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Imagine what a strong position a competent Labour with a good leader could be in right now...

If only the Labour Party had the ability to vote themselves a better leader by opening up a challenge to his leadership.
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Old 21st March 2019, 04:20 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
1. Effectively a border in the Irish Sea, not acceptable to DUP and much of the Conservative and Unionist Party.
Yes, I think I said as much just before the list

Quote:
2. Which means what exactly? What replaces the backstop?
And don't munder on about magic "technological solutions"'; if these were actually possible the Brexiteers would have enumerated them and agreed to the Backstop knowing it would be a short term measure.
Nothing. If the backstop is voted against by the NI on a referendum as described above, the GFA can be rendered void because it became obsolete and unnecessary. Notice it's quite harsh, 60% of votes must be to end the backstop, reunification must be on the referendum and it must be a ranked choice referendum, meaning a large consensus of NI electorate wishes a return of hard border.

This is entirely doable and democratic. It's not a simple "in or out" choice like the Brexit referendum was.

Quote:
3. Again not acceptable to the DUP and CUP. Basing actions on possible future technological developments is stupid in the extreme.
I was thinking more along the lines of: 80 years is long enough for major cultural shifts. It's enough for major political shifts twice over. It's obviously long enough for technological shifts too, but those may well be unnecessary by 2100. Either EU will be a functional democratic superstate or gone by then, either renders the backstop less than necessary.

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Old 21st March 2019, 04:21 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Imagine what a strong position a competent Labour with a good leader could be in right now...
Sadly we have to just imagine

Jeremy Corbyn once again demonstrating that he has adopted the politics of the 6th form common room by storming out in a strop when he doesn't get his own way.

Jeremy Corbyn was swept into the Labour leadership on a tide of support from those who will be damaged most by the Brexit policies that he advocates.
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Old 21st March 2019, 04:24 AM   #225
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When Corbyn was made leader I actually thought it was a hopeful sign for British politics - an actual left-winger leading the Labour party, rather than the ToryLite we've had since Blair. Sadly, I think he's done more harm than good and will ultimately move the country as a whole even further to the right.
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Old 21st March 2019, 04:25 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
If only the Labour Party had the ability to vote themselves a better leader by opening up a challenge to his leadership.
The problem is that Jeremy Corbyn would likely be reelected not least because thousands of people have left the party in disgust over his leadership - those that remain are increasingly hard-line Corbynites.
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Old 21st March 2019, 04:27 AM   #227
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https://twitter.com/freeWorld2/statu...07624808136710

Quote:
German TV unfolds the whole #Brexit coup, dark money, dark adds. Whistleblower Mr. Sanni explaining how it all works.

They are also going after Banksy's money. They're at his diamond mines. Deserted!

What @carolecadwalla said.

That's what the @BBC should have done.
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1108677368351260672

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A German TV reporter appears at @guardian for an interview. "You're doing a whole hour on Brexit crimes?" I say. No British broadcaster has done that. "In Germany, we think this is a v important topic. It affects the entire future of Europe. People really need to know the truth."
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Old 21st March 2019, 04:30 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Brits abroad didn't get to vote in the referendum.
Some of them did, for example the two in this house. It depends on how long you've been an expat.
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Old 21st March 2019, 04:37 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Sadly we have to just imagine

Jeremy Corbyn once again demonstrating that he has adopted the politics of the 6th form common room by storming out in a strop when he doesn't get his own way.

Jeremy Corbyn was swept into the Labour leadership on a tide of support from those who will be damaged most by the Brexit policies that he advocates.
I disagree. Corbyn's reasons for supporting Brexit are more sound than the Tories (xenophobia). He is right. The free movement of workers has driven down wages for the UK population. It is a low-income credit driven economy. Whilst employment is now high, incomes are pathetic. People are not saving and are up to the eyeballs in debt including mortgages. When I was between jobs a few years ago, I was competing with East Europeans happy to accept low salaries (for an accountant) and I was most discombobulated having been used to employers snapping me up.

Having said that, I am a remainer. However, I do see where the Corbyn brand of Brexit is coming from.
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Old 21st March 2019, 04:41 AM   #230
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Merkel has spoken this morning and said that a short delay would be possible ONLY IF the deal is accepted before the 29th (which apparently is impossible). If not, it's no deal bye bye and she asked the 27 remaining members to concentrate on the future after Brexit.
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Old 21st March 2019, 05:18 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I disagree. Corbyn's reasons for supporting Brexit are more sound than the Tories (xenophobia). He is right. The free movement of workers has driven down wages for the UK population. It is a low-income credit driven economy. Whilst employment is now high, incomes are pathetic. People are not saving and are up to the eyeballs in debt including mortgages. When I was between jobs a few years ago, I was competing with East Europeans happy to accept low salaries (for an accountant) and I was most discombobulated having been used to employers snapping me up.

Having said that, I am a remainer. However, I do see where the Corbyn brand of Brexit is coming from.
As do I. The solution, of course, to a true friend of the worker is to work through the EU to achieve good conditions and comparable livable wages for all European workers. Corbyn's abandoning the workers of Europe.
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Old 21st March 2019, 05:20 AM   #232
The Great Zaganza
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The real battle the workers of the UK have is with the City of London, not Brussels.
Brexit will make their lives worse, not better.
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Old 21st March 2019, 05:30 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I disagree. Corbyn's reasons for supporting Brexit are more sound than the Tories (xenophobia). He is right. The free movement of workers has driven down wages for the UK population. It is a low-income credit driven economy. Whilst employment is now high, incomes are pathetic. People are not saving and are up to the eyeballs in debt including mortgages. When I was between jobs a few years ago, I was competing with East Europeans happy to accept low salaries (for an accountant) and I was most discombobulated having been used to employers snapping me up.

Having said that, I am a remainer. However, I do see where the Corbyn brand of Brexit is coming from.
True. The problem is the goal to induce wage inflation in this manner is more likely to backfire than anything else. The proper approach is not to limit the inflow of the workers, it is to support labor unions, support collective barganing, legislation introducing greater worker rights (paid leave, certain expenses, etc) and so on.

Restricting immigration is the tariffs of labor. It's all fine and well until somebody decides granting visas is also an option and goes with that. Then what? You did nothing.

His reasons may be pure but his reasoning that of a rock.

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Old 21st March 2019, 05:40 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
1. Effectively a border in the Irish Sea, not acceptable to DUP and much of the Conservative and Unionist Party.
2. Which means what exactly? What replaces the backstop?
And don't munder on about magic "technological solutions"'; if these were actually possible the Brexiteers would have enumerated them and agreed to the Backstop knowing it would be a short term measure.
3. Again not acceptable to the DUP and CUP. Basing actions on possible future technological developments is stupid in the extreme.
Reconquer ireland! That is a solution to the backstop! Once Ireland stops being an independent nation it won't be part of the EU.
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Old 21st March 2019, 06:04 AM   #235
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https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/stat...08533019832323

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Commons Leader Andrea Leadsom on #RevokeArticle50 petition that crashed Parliament website

http://bbc.in/2Jr10gA
Video embedded in tweet.
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Old 21st March 2019, 06:18 AM   #236
The Don
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I disagree. Corbyn's reasons for supporting Brexit are more sound than the Tories (xenophobia). He is right. The free movement of workers has driven down wages for the UK population. It is a low-income credit driven economy. Whilst employment is now high, incomes are pathetic. People are not saving and are up to the eyeballs in debt including mortgages. When I was between jobs a few years ago, I was competing with East Europeans happy to accept low salaries (for an accountant) and I was most discombobulated having been used to employers snapping me up.

Having said that, I am a remainer. However, I do see where the Corbyn brand of Brexit is coming from.
The "immigration drives down wages" mantra is a well-worn one, but one that doesn't seem to have the level of support in the economy at large as individual anecdotes like yours would seem to suggest.


Quote:
The claim: Immigration has held down wages in the UK.

Reality Check verdict: Current research suggests there was a small, negative impact on the wages of low-skilled workers, which was outweighed by other factors such as the impact of the financial crisis and rises in the minimum wage.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46918729

https://assets.publishing.service.go...EEA_report.PDF

....so while Jeremy Corbyn may claim that his desire to keep foreigners out is driven by a desire to keep British wages high, the core of it is still a mistrust of foreigners.
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Old 21st March 2019, 06:48 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
..so while Jeremy Corbyn may claim that his desire to keep foreigners out is driven by a desire to keep British wages high, the core of it is still a mistrust of foreigners.
Corbyn is a twat. Happy to sit down with terrorists because dialogue is the best way to change people's minds and bring differing factions together* but won't discuss Brexit solutions because there is an ex-labour party member in the room#.


* I don't necessarily disagree with this
# This I do disagree with.
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Old 21st March 2019, 06:52 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Merkel has spoken this morning and said that a short delay would be possible ONLY IF the deal is accepted before the 29th (which apparently is impossible). If not, it's no deal bye bye and she asked the 27 remaining members to concentrate on the future after Brexit.
I suppose it depends on how frightened Theresa May can make the horses and/or how effectively she can bribe the DUP and some Labour MPs.

All bar the most extreme ERG MPs could claim that they are finally supporting May's deal because the alternative is no-Brexit (not actually true but they may not want to carry the can for no-deal) which could allow the deal to squeak over the line - so long as the pay-offs are successful. Heck, she could even get more support if Labour suddenly think that their current assessment that the alternative to Theresa May's deal is a significantly delayed or cancelled Brexit is wrong and actually if Theresa May's deal fails then we're crashing out with a no-deal.
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Old 21st March 2019, 07:08 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Brits abroad didn't get to vote in the referendum.
I know they didn't. But the country voted to **** them over.
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Old 21st March 2019, 07:10 AM   #240
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When I was a 10 years old kind I was wondering why de Gaulle didn't want the UK becoming member of the Common Market.

42 years later I finally understood de Gaulle reasons...
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