Who is more evil? - Page 12

Leumas · 3rd July 2022, 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Your logic can be flawless, but if you start from a faulty premise, you will draw faulty conclusions.

If one's logic is flawless then one can use that flawless logic to recognize the faulty premises to avoid using them.

But... in the context of acbytesla's post that you replied to ... can you please tell us what is the faulty premise you have identified please??

arthwollipot · 3rd July 2022, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by Leumas

If one's logic is flawless then one can use that flawless logic to recognize the faulty premises to avoid using them.

But... in the context of acbytesla's post that you replied to ... can you please tell us what is the faulty premise you have identified please??

Premise #1: God exists.

Leumas · 3rd July 2022, 11:02 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Premise #1: God exists.

So you think that "God exists" is a faulty premise??? How do you know that??? Can you prove that???

The Great Zaganza · 3rd July 2022, 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

True. But a sound logical argument requires premises that are true.

no.

the point of a logic argument can be that premises believed to be true must be false.

the calculation that the Sun can't be made of coal (an assumption in pre-nuclear science), or it would have burned out already, would be such a case.

arthwollipot · 3rd July 2022, 11:48 PM

Originally Posted by Leumas

So you think that "God exists" is a faulty premise??? How do you know that??? Can you prove that???

You really do have to argue with everybody, don't you?

Leumas · 4th July 2022, 12:15 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

There are plenty of passages in the bible that directly contradict the ones you cherry picked

Okey Dokey ... here are some that irrefragably prove that your deadbeat sky daddies are evil... can you please give me the verses that "directly contradict" them...

Start with these....

Deuteronomy 25:11-12 When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets; then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall have no pity.
Leviticus 25:44-46 Both thy male slaves and thy female slaves, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy male slaves and female slaves. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your slaves for ever…
1 Samuel 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling…
Deuteronomy 13:1-15 ....If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods... thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die.... If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities... saying, Let us go and serve other gods... Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein... with the edge of the sword
Leviticus 26:14-32 If ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;.....I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.....And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
Psalms 68:23-24 YHWH said: ....that thy foot may wade through blood, that the tongue of thy dogs may have its portion from thine enemies.
Hosea 13:16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.
Matthew 10:34-35 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
John 3:18 ... he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Matthew 15:21-28 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.... it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

Here are some more... enjoy!!!

Deuteronomy 25:11-12 When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets; then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall have no pity.
Leviticus 25:44-46 Both thy male slaves and thy female slaves, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy male slaves and female slaves. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your slaves for ever…
Exodus 21:20-21 And if a man smite his male slave, or his female slave, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.
Numbers 31:1-18 And YHWH spake unto Moses, saying, ... kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Numbers 31:25-35 And YHWH spake unto Moses, saying, take the sum of the prey that was taken, both of man and of beast... and divide .... the booty, .... was ... sheep,... beeves, ... asses, and thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him...... And YHWH's tribute of the sheep was six hundred and threescore and fifteen. .... And the persons were sixteen thousand; of which YHWH's tribute was thirty and two persons.
1 Samuel 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling…
Deuteronomy 20:16-18 But of the cities of these people, which YHWH thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as YHWH thy God hath commanded thee...
Deuteronomy 13:1-15 ....If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods... thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die.... If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities... saying, Let us go and serve other gods... Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein... with the edge of the sword
Deuteronomy 23:2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of YHWH; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of YHWH
Leviticus 26:14-32 If ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;.....I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.....And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
Exodus 30:11-16 When thou takest the sum of the children of Israel after their number, then shall they give every man a ransom for his soul unto YHWH, when thou numberest them; that there be no plague among them, when thou numberest them. This they shall give, every one that passeth among them that are numbered, half a shekel after the shekel of the sanctuary.... Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto YHWH. The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when they give an offering unto YHWH, to make an atonement for your souls..... to make an atonement for your souls.
Leviticus 14:1-7 And YHWH spake unto Moses, saying, This shall be the LAW OF THE LEPER in the day of his cleansing: He shall be brought unto the priest: And the priest shall go forth out of the camp; and the priest shall look, and, behold, if the plague of leprosy be healed in the leper; Then shall the priest command to take for him that is to be cleansed two birds alive and clean, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop: And the priest shall command that one of the birds be killed in an earthen vessel over running water: As for the living bird, he shall take it, and the cedar wood, and the scarlet, and the hyssop, and shall dip them and the living bird in the blood of the bird that was killed over the running water: And he shall sprinkle upon him that is to be cleansed from the leprosy seven times, and shall pronounce him clean, and shall let the living bird loose into the open field.
Deuteronomy 22:20-21 ... the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel......stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house.
Psalms 60:10 Moab is my washpot [i.e. toilet]; upon Edom do I cast my shoe; Philistia, cry aloud because of me!
Psalms 137:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the rock
Psalms 2:8-9 Ask of Me, and I will give the nations... for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Psalms 68:23-24 YHWH said: ....that thy foot may wade through blood, that the tongue of thy dogs may have its portion from thine enemies.
Exodus 34:12-14 ...ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves. For thou shalt worship no other god: for YHWH, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
Jeremiah 19:4-15... because they have forsaken Me, and have estranged this place, and have offered in it unto other gods... and have built the high places of Baal... the days come, saith YHWH... I will make void the counsel of Judah and Jerusalem ... their carcasses will I give to be food for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth... I will make this city an astonishment, and a hissing... because of all the plagues ... and I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend... Thus saith YHWH of hosts... will I break this people and this city, as one breaketh a potter's vessel, that cannot be made whole again... Thus saith YHWH of hosts, the God of Israel: Behold, I will bring upon this city and upon all her towns all the evil that I have pronounced against it; because they have made their neck stiff, that they might not hear My words
Ezekiel 20:23-26 ... Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good.... and I polluted them in their own gifts.... that I might destroy them, to the end that they might know that I am YHWH.
Hosea 9:16 Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.
Hosea 13:16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.
2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie
1 Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise;
Matthew 4:19 And He said to them, Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men.
Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters , yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Luke 19:27 And these enemies of mine who were unwilling for me to rule over them, bring them here and slay them in front of me
Matthew 10:34-35 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Mark 4:11-13 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without , all these things are done in parables: that seeing they may see, and not perceive ; and hearing they may hear, and not understand ; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
John 3:36 ... he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:18 ... he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Mark 16:16 ... he that believeth not shall be damned.
Luke 13:6-9 6 And he told this parable: A man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. And he said to the vinedresser, ‘Look, for three years now I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and I find none. Cut it down. Why should it use up the ground?’ And he answered him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and put on manure. Then if it should bear fruit next year, well and good; but if not, you can cut it down
Matthew 15:21-28 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.... it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
Acts 5:1-11 ..You have not lied just to human beings but to God. When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died... Peter said to her, “How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.” At that moment she fell down at his feet and died... Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events..

Leumas · 4th July 2022, 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

You really do have to argue with everybody, don't you?

When they are so clearly wrong ... yes!!!

arthwollipot · 4th July 2022, 12:31 AM

Originally Posted by Leumas

When they are so clearly wrong ... yes!!!

Are you saying that "God exists" is a true premise?

Leumas · 4th July 2022, 12:41 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Are you saying that "God exists" is a true premise?

No I am saying that your premise that "God exists" is a faulty premise is in itself a faulty premise.

arthwollipot · 4th July 2022, 12:54 AM

Originally Posted by Leumas

No I am saying that your premise that "God exists" is a faulty premise is in itself a faulty premise.

Which would imply that it is instead a true premise. But whatever. My point is that if you start by assuming that a false premise is actually true, your logic can be rock solid and you will still come to conclusions that are false. Your logic isn't at fault, just the premise on which you build it.

psionl0 · 4th July 2022, 01:39 AM

Originally Posted by Leumas

Nope... that is exactly what apologists for your deadbeat sky daddy do... they are the ones who cherry pick the bible for stuff to support their BLIND FAITH.

Proof that denial is not just a river in Egypt.

acbytesla · 4th July 2022, 05:45 AM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

no.

the point of a logic argument can be that premises believed to be true must be false.

the calculation that the Sun can't be made of coal (an assumption in pre-nuclear science), or it would have burned out already, would be such a case.

You're talking about validity. You can have a valid argument with false premises. But soundness requires premises to be true.

Leumas · 4th July 2022, 07:15 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Which would imply that it is instead a true premise. But whatever. My point is that if you start by assuming that a false premise is actually true, your logic can be rock solid and you will still come to conclusions that are false. Your logic isn't at fault, just the premise on which you build it.

No it does not.... do you know what unfalsifiable is??

Leumas · 4th July 2022, 07:37 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Proof that denial is not just a river in Egypt.

The river in Egypt is called the Nile... "denial" is an English word which signifies what apologists of your ilk do when faced with the cognition of reality which is dissonant with their Blind Faith about their deadbeat sky daddies.

acbytesla · 4th July 2022, 09:58 AM

I swear I don’t understand what most of you are arguing about.

Logic cannot prove the existence of a God. But logic can point out the flaws in people's argument for the existence of a God. In fact, most of the arguments I've heard for it's existence are logically flawed. They are almost all loaded with circular reasoning, tautological nonsense, and fallacy after fallacy.

Otherwise they say it's faith which is more honest, but is just as ridiculous.

Leumas · 4th July 2022, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I swear I don’t understand what most of you are arguing about.

Logic cannot prove the existence of a God. But logic can point out the flaws in people's argument for the existence of a God. In fact, most of the arguments I've heard for it's existence are logically flawed. They are almost all loaded with circular reasoning, tautological nonsense, and fallacy after fallacy.

Otherwise they say it's faith which is more honest, but is just as ridiculous.

Leumas · 4th July 2022, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

There are plenty of passages in the bible that directly contradict the ones you cherry picked .

It took me all of an hour to collate the list of verses from the bible that prove beyond doubt that your deadbeat sky daddy is vile evil turpitude.

And I asked you to live up to your above statement that you can find verses that "directly contradict" my verses.

It has been over 12 hours and so far nary a whimper...

I will wait... but I know I will be long putrefied before you ever come up with anything that is valid.

In the meantime here are a few more verses you can add to the list that irrefutably prove the extent of your deadbeat sky daddy's depravity... 2 Samuel 21:1-14 and Joshua 7:1-26.... if it will make it easier for you, you can start with these before any of the others... you do not even have to show any verses that contradict them... just do your usual apologetics and see if you can come up with an excuse for why he is not a vile deceiving monster as amply demonstrated in those verses.

Thor 2 · 4th July 2022, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by Leumas

In the Bible it never says that YHWH made Adam perfect... he made him callow and out of DIRT... and his only purpose was to be a GARDENER for YHWH's orchard.

He made Adam in his own image and He is supposed to be perfect.

I suppose He made Eve to look like his female side.

acbytesla · 4th July 2022, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by Leumas

It took me all of an hour to collate the list of verses from the bible that prove beyond doubt that your deadbeat sky daddy is vile evil turpitude.

And I asked you to live up to your above statement that you can find verses that "directly contradict" my verses.

It has been over 12 hours and so far nary a whimper...

I will wait... but I know I will be long putrefied before you ever come up with anything that is valid.

In the meantime here are a few more verses you can add to the list that irrefutably prove the extent of your deadbeat sky daddy's depravity... 2 Samuel 21:1-14 and Joshua 7:1-26.... if it will make it easier for you, you can start with these before any of the others... you do not even have to show any verses that contradict them... just do your usual apologetics and see if you can come up with an excuse for why he is not a vile deceiving monster as amply demonstrated in those verses.

It took you an hour? It took me a couple of minutes.

Here's a pretty good list.

https://infidels.org/library/modern/...rgan-atrocity/

Leumas · 4th July 2022, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

He made Adam in his own image and He is supposed to be perfect.

I suppose He made Eve to look like his female side.

Nope... the bible never said that... the REAL GOD of Genesis 1 created humans ... man AND woman together at the same time with his word and in his image and told them to go forth be fruitful and multiply and have dominance over the Earth... entire Earth... read this post.

The LESSER god YHWH ... of Genesis 2... molded mud-man alone no woman ... out of mud... not in his image ... and he was told to be the GARDENER of the garden YHWH made for himself on Earth in which to stroll in the cool of the afternoon.

YHWH then decided to mold out of mud some cows and sheep for "help meet" for the poor solitary lonely mud-man... and when that did not "amuse" him YHWH decided to wrench his baculum and BUILD Eve.

So no... YHWH did not make man perfect nor in his image... he made a callow gardener out the dirt he was supposed to till... and YHWH never intended for Adam to "know" Eve ... when they did he fired them and threw them out of the garden.

I suggest you read Genesis 1 to 3 carefully... and notice one thing... God = Elohim ... The Lord God = YHWH elohim.... Genesis 1 never mentions the name YHWH which does not come onto the stage until Genesis 2:4.

Note: Noah was descended from Seth the third son of Mud-Man and Eve... and since all the creation of Elohim got annihilated by YHWH and only Noah and his family were saved... this implies that the humans whom Elohim created perfect and in his image are long ago gone... and earth is now populated by MOLDED and BUILT out of mud descendants of mud-man who was neither perfect nor in the image of any god let alone God.

Note: All this of course is in the fairy tale universe of the Bible... nothing to do with reality of course.

Leumas · 4th July 2022, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

It took you an hour? It took me a couple of minutes.

Here's a pretty good list.

https://infidels.org/library/modern/...rgan-atrocity/

A very good list... thanks... I will look at it carefully soon... but... I noticed it does not have 2 Samuel 21... also some of mine are not there ... but it has some stuff I do not have.

Also... I use the Masoretic text for the Tanakh (OT) stuff to ensure fairness to the exact meaning and in context and to make sure it says YHWH not something else.

Thanks ... I will make sure to update my list...

ETA: by the way... there are scads more that I did not bother to do because there might be some verses in opposition if construed and wrung apologetically... I wanted a list that cannot have contradictory verses... as far as I can wring and contort... but some apologists might teach me something new one day.

Myriad · 4th July 2022, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by Leumas

Nope... the bible never said that... the REAL GOD of Genesis 1 created humans ... man AND woman together at the same time with his word and in his image and told them to go forth be fruitful and multiply and have dominance over the Earth... entire Earth... read this post.

The LESSER god YHWH ... of Genesis 2... molded mud-man alone no woman ... out of mud... not in his image ... and he was told to be the GARDENER of the garden YHWH made for himself on Earth in which to stroll in the cool of the afternoon.

YHWH then decided to mold out of mud some cows and sheep for "help meet" for the poor solitary lonely mud-man... and when that did not "amuse" him YHWH decided to wrench his baculum and BUILD Eve.

So no... YHWH did not make man perfect nor in his image... he made a callow gardener out the dirt he was supposed to till... and YHWH never intended for Adam to "know" Eve ... when they did he fired them and threw them out of the garden.

Argumentum ad baculum.

p0lka · 4th July 2022, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by Myriad

Argumentum ad baculum.

Advocatus Diaboli, methinks.

acbytesla · 4th July 2022, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by Leumas

A very good list... thanks... I will look at it carefully soon... but... I noticed it does not have 2 Samuel 21... also some of mine are not there ... but it has some stuff I do not have.

Also... I use the Masoretic text for the Tanakh (OT) stuff to ensure fairness to the exact meaning and in context and to make sure it says YHWH not something else.

Thanks ... I will make sure to update my list...

ETA: by the way... there are scads more that I did not bother to do because there might be some verses in opposition if construed and wrung apologetically... I wanted a list that cannot have contradictory verses... as far as I can wring and contort... but some apologists might teach me something new one day.

Here's another good list.

https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

Also, Dan Barker a former fundamentalist preacher wrote a pretty good book titled GOD: The Most Unpleasant Character in All Fiction. He lists what he considers the 10 worst Old Testament passages.

https://ffrf.org/about/getting-acqua...stament-verses

acbytesla · 4th July 2022, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by p0lka

Advocatus Diaboli, methinks.

Let me give you a little inside information about God. God likes to watch. He's a prankster.

Think about it. He gives man instincts. He gives you this extraordinary gift, and then what does he do?
I swear for His own amusement, his own private, cosmic gag reel, He sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time.

Look but don't touch.
Touch, but don't taste.
Taste, don't swallow.

Ahaha. And while you're jumpin' from one foot to the next, what is he doing? He's laughin' His sick, ******' ass off! He's a tight-ass! He's a SADIST! He's an absentee landlord! Worship that? NEVER!

Leumas · 4th July 2022, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Here's another good list.

https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

Also, Dan Barker a former fundamentalist preacher wrote a pretty good book titled GOD: The Most Unpleasant Character in All Fiction. He lists what he considers the 10 worst Old Testament passages.

https://ffrf.org/about/getting-acqua...stament-verses

Thanks!!!

Top ten list of Dan Barker is ok... but could have chosen worse things... I have not read that book yet... I am probably going to wait for the Audible version.

Leumas · 4th July 2022, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by p0lka

Advocatus Diaboli, methinks.

Defense Lawyer: Your honor... why does the prosecution keep bringing up my client's crimes but not those of the devil... he must be a fan of the devil.

Leumas · 4th July 2022, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by Myriad

Argumentum ad baculum.

Good one!!!

ETA:But in this case it is a factual argument not a fallacious one... though it might be an argument from fellatio.

Leumas · 4th July 2022, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Let me give you a little inside information about God. God likes to watch. He's a prankster.

Think about it. He gives man instincts. He gives you this extraordinary gift, and then what does he do?
I swear for His own amusement, his own private, cosmic gag reel, He sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time.

Look but don't touch.
Touch, but don't taste.
Taste, don't swallow.

Ahaha. And while you're jumpin' from one foot to the next, what is he doing? He's laughin' His sick, ******' ass off! He's a tight-ass! He's a SADIST! He's an absentee landlord! Worship that? NEVER!

A lascivious voyeur... he makes Ananias and Sapphira drop dead on the spot for lying about not giving all THEIR money to the communist cult of Jesus... but he watches and keeps watching all over the world for millennia his caste of licentious perverts ravaging children and does not lift a finger to make them drop dead like he did Ananias and Sapphira.

acbytesla · 4th July 2022, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by Leumas

Thanks!!!

Top ten list of Dan Barker is ok... but could have chosen worse things... I have not read that book yet... I am probably going to wait for the Audible version.

I'm a big fan of Dan Barker.

Leumas · 4th July 2022, 07:21 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I'm a big fan of Dan Barker.

Yes ... me too... I like his FFRF podcasts...I liked his book the Christian Delusion.

bruto · 4th July 2022, 09:21 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

He made Adam in his own image and He is supposed to be perfect.

I suppose He made Eve to look like his female side.

But an image is not the real thing. God could not realistically make another God, being, as he said himself, jealous. I th8nk we have to give old Jehova the point here. Adam could never be perfect. There's plenty else to blame him for, including making Adam in the first place, since he has to have known what was coming. Really the god of the Bible is just a super-sized kid and the world is his train set.

Leumas · 4th July 2022, 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by bruto

But an image is not the real thing. God could not realistically make another God, being, as he said himself, jealous. I th8nk we have to give old Jehova the point here. Adam could never be perfect. There's plenty else to blame him for, including making Adam in the first place, since he has to have known what was coming. Really the god of the Bible is just a super-sized kid and the world is his train set.

Leumas · 4th July 2022, 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by GDon

...
... "For its purpose." Leads to a greater good.
... Leads to a greater good.
... Leads to a greater good:
... Leads to a greater good:
... which results in a greater good.
... lead to a greater good

With apologies to John Maynard Keynes

~~Capitalism~~ YHWH is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.

GDon · 5th July 2022, 12:49 AM

Originally Posted by Leumas

With apologies to John Maynard Keynes

~~Capitalism~~ YHWH is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.

Nothing more dangerous than a man who is convinced he speaks for God so he acts against others for their own good with God's blessings. The Buddhists have a saying: "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!"

CS Lewis famously wrote:

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

Leumas · 5th July 2022, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by GDon

Nothing more dangerous than a man who is convinced he speaks for God so he acts against others for their own good with God's blessings. The Buddhists have a saying: "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!"

CS Lewis famously wrote:

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

Nice.... excellent quotes!!!

bruto · 5th July 2022, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by Leumas

Nice.... excellent quotes!!!

Indeed, there is a similar one from Albert Jay Nock, which I can't find now, but I don't know which came first, so C.S. will do just fine.

Leumas · 6th July 2022, 12:55 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

There are plenty of passages in the bible that directly contradict the ones you cherry picked but they don't count - because ~~"REASON"~~ they do not exist.

IFTFY

Evidently they do not count because they do not exist... as evinced by the fact that you cannot produce any of them.

You still have a chance to respond to this or to this if you want to prove me wrong.

sphenisc · 6th July 2022, 01:20 AM

Originally Posted by Leumas

IFTFY

Evidently they do not count because they do not exist... as evinced by the fact that you cannot produce any of them.

You still have a chance to respond to this or to this if you want to prove me wrong.

For the first link, most of them are contradicted by Galatians 3:28

The Psalms 68, Matt 10, Matt 15 group form a contradictory cycle.

Leumas · 6th July 2022, 01:46 AM

Originally Posted by sphenisc

For the first link, most of them are contradicted by Galatians 3:28

The Psalms 68, Matt 10, Matt 15 group form a contradictory cycle.

Seriously.... have you read Galatians 3:28 ... let alone any of the verses in the first link???

Originally Posted by sphenisc

The Psalms 68, Matt 10, Matt 15 group form a contradictory cycle.

And how does that have anything to do with "directly contradicting" the litany of atrocities that YHWH and Jesus did and commanded and advised???

Have you read Matthew 19:12... how is this sordid grotesques turpitude by Jesus "directly contradicted" by any verses in Matthew 10, 15 or Psalms 68... or Galatians 3:28???

If anything ... Psalms 68 and Matthew 15,10 demonstrate further the EVIL that is YHWH and Jesus.... thanks for those!!!

3rd July 2022, 09:47 PM	#441
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Your logic can be flawless, but if you start from a faulty premise, you will draw faulty conclusions. If one's logic is flawless then one can use that flawless logic to recognize the faulty premises to avoid using them. But... in the context of acbytesla's post that you replied to ... can you please tell us what is the faulty premise you have identified please??
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	__________________ Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words. Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

3rd July 2022, 10:06 PM	#442
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 77,486	Originally Posted by Leumas If one's logic is flawless then one can use that flawless logic to recognize the faulty premises to avoid using them. But... in the context of acbytesla's post that you replied to ... can you please tell us what is the faulty premise you have identified please?? Premise #1: God exists.
	__________________ This is Australia. It's possible to start a fire with a lukewarm audience reaction to your standup routine.

3rd July 2022, 11:02 PM	#443
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Premise #1: God exists. So you think that "God exists" is a faulty premise??? How do you know that??? Can you prove that???
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	__________________ Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words. Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

3rd July 2022, 11:19 PM	#444
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 18,371	Originally Posted by acbytesla True. But a sound logical argument requires premises that are true. no. the point of a logic argument can be that premises believed to be true must be false. the calculation that the Sun can't be made of coal (an assumption in pre-nuclear science), or it would have burned out already, would be such a case.
	__________________ "When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me." - Emo Philips

3rd July 2022, 11:48 PM	#445
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 77,486	Originally Posted by Leumas So you think that "God exists" is a faulty premise??? How do you know that??? Can you prove that??? You really do have to argue with everybody, don't you?
	__________________ This is Australia. It's possible to start a fire with a lukewarm audience reaction to your standup routine.

4th July 2022, 12:15 AM	#446
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	Originally Posted by psionl0 There are plenty of passages in the bible that directly contradict the ones you cherry picked Okey Dokey ... here are some that irrefragably prove that your deadbeat sky daddies are evil... can you please give me the verses that "directly contradict" them... Start with these.... Deuteronomy 25:11-12 When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets; then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall have no pity. Leviticus 25:44-46 Both thy male slaves and thy female slaves, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy male slaves and female slaves. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your slaves for ever… 1 Samuel 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling… Deuteronomy 13:1-15 ....If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods... thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die.... If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities... saying, Let us go and serve other gods... Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein... with the edge of the sword Leviticus 26:14-32 If ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;.....I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.....And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. Psalms 68:23-24 YHWH said: ....that thy foot may wade through blood, that the tongue of thy dogs may have its portion from thine enemies. Hosea 13:16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. Matthew 10:34-35 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. John 3:18 ... he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Matthew 15:21-28 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.... it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. Here are some more... enjoy!!! Deuteronomy 25:11-12 When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets; then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall have no pity. Leviticus 25:44-46 Both thy male slaves and thy female slaves, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy male slaves and female slaves. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your slaves for ever… Exodus 21:20-21 And if a man smite his male slave, or his female slave, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money. Numbers 31:1-18 And YHWH spake unto Moses, saying, ... kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. Numbers 31:25-35 And YHWH spake unto Moses, saying, take the sum of the prey that was taken, both of man and of beast... and divide .... the booty, .... was ... sheep,... beeves, ... asses, and thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him...... And YHWH's tribute of the sheep was six hundred and threescore and fifteen. .... And the persons were sixteen thousand; of which YHWH's tribute was thirty and two persons. 1 Samuel 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling… Deuteronomy 20:16-18 But of the cities of these people, which YHWH thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as YHWH thy God hath commanded thee... Deuteronomy 13:1-15 ....If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods... thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die.... If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities... saying, Let us go and serve other gods... Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein... with the edge of the sword Deuteronomy 23:2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of YHWH; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of YHWH Leviticus 26:14-32 If ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;.....I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.....And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. Exodus 30:11-16 When thou takest the sum of the children of Israel after their number, then shall they give every man a ransom for his soul unto YHWH, when thou numberest them; that there be no plague among them, when thou numberest them. This they shall give, every one that passeth among them that are numbered, half a shekel after the shekel of the sanctuary.... Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto YHWH. The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when they give an offering unto YHWH, to make an atonement for your souls..... to make an atonement for your souls. Leviticus 14:1-7 And YHWH spake unto Moses, saying, This shall be the LAW OF THE LEPER in the day of his cleansing: He shall be brought unto the priest: And the priest shall go forth out of the camp; and the priest shall look, and, behold, if the plague of leprosy be healed in the leper; Then shall the priest command to take for him that is to be cleansed two birds alive and clean, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop: And the priest shall command that one of the birds be killed in an earthen vessel over running water: As for the living bird, he shall take it, and the cedar wood, and the scarlet, and the hyssop, and shall dip them and the living bird in the blood of the bird that was killed over the running water: And he shall sprinkle upon him that is to be cleansed from the leprosy seven times, and shall pronounce him clean, and shall let the living bird loose into the open field. Deuteronomy 22:20-21 ... the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel......stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house. Psalms 60:10 Moab is my washpot [i.e. toilet]; upon Edom do I cast my shoe; Philistia, cry aloud because of me! Psalms 137:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the rock Psalms 2:8-9 Ask of Me, and I will give the nations... for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Psalms 68:23-24 YHWH said: ....that thy foot may wade through blood, that the tongue of thy dogs may have its portion from thine enemies. Exodus 34:12-14 ...ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves. For thou shalt worship no other god: for YHWH, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. Jeremiah 19:4-15... because they have forsaken Me, and have estranged this place, and have offered in it unto other gods... and have built the high places of Baal... the days come, saith YHWH... I will make void the counsel of Judah and Jerusalem ... their carcasses will I give to be food for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth... I will make this city an astonishment, and a hissing... because of all the plagues ... and I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend... Thus saith YHWH of hosts... will I break this people and this city, as one breaketh a potter's vessel, that cannot be made whole again... Thus saith YHWH of hosts, the God of Israel: Behold, I will bring upon this city and upon all her towns all the evil that I have pronounced against it; because they have made their neck stiff, that they might not hear My words Ezekiel 20:23-26 ... Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good.... and I polluted them in their own gifts.... that I might destroy them, to the end that they might know that I am YHWH. Hosea 9:16 Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. Hosea 13:16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. 2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie 1 Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; Matthew 4:19 And He said to them, Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men. Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters , yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Luke 19:27 And these enemies of mine who were unwilling for me to rule over them, bring them here and slay them in front of me Matthew 10:34-35 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. Mark 4:11-13 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without , all these things are done in parables: that seeing they may see, and not perceive ; and hearing they may hear, and not understand ; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. John 3:36 ... he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:18 ... he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Mark 16:16 ... he that believeth not shall be damned. Luke 13:6-9 6 And he told this parable: A man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. And he said to the vinedresser, ‘Look, for three years now I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and I find none. Cut it down. Why should it use up the ground?’ And he answered him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and put on manure. Then if it should bear fruit next year, well and good; but if not, you can cut it down Matthew 15:21-28 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.... it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. Acts 5:1-11 ..You have not lied just to human beings but to God. When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died... Peter said to her, “How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.” At that moment she fell down at his feet and died... Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events..
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	__________________ Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words. Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly. Last edited by Leumas; 4th July 2022 at 12:19 AM.

4th July 2022, 12:23 AM	#447
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	Originally Posted by arthwollipot You really do have to argue with everybody, don't you? When they are so clearly wrong ... yes!!!
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	__________________ Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words. Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

4th July 2022, 12:31 AM	#448
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 77,486	Originally Posted by Leumas When they are so clearly wrong ... yes!!! Are you saying that "God exists" is a true premise?
	__________________ This is Australia. It's possible to start a fire with a lukewarm audience reaction to your standup routine.

4th July 2022, 12:41 AM	#449
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Are you saying that "God exists" is a true premise? No I am saying that your premise that "God exists" is a faulty premise is in itself a faulty premise.
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	__________________ Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words. Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

4th July 2022, 12:54 AM	#450
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 77,486	Originally Posted by Leumas No I am saying that your premise that "God exists" is a faulty premise is in itself a faulty premise. Which would imply that it is instead a true premise. But whatever. My point is that if you start by assuming that a false premise is actually true, your logic can be rock solid and you will still come to conclusions that are false. Your logic isn't at fault, just the premise on which you build it.
	__________________ This is Australia. It's possible to start a fire with a lukewarm audience reaction to your standup routine.

4th July 2022, 01:39 AM	#451
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,327	Originally Posted by Leumas Nope... that is exactly what apologists for your deadbeat sky daddy do... they are the ones who cherry pick the bible for stuff to support their BLIND FAITH. Proof that denial is not just a river in Egypt.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

4th July 2022, 05:45 AM	#452
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 30,839	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza no. the point of a logic argument can be that premises believed to be true must be false. the calculation that the Sun can't be made of coal (an assumption in pre-nuclear science), or it would have burned out already, would be such a case. You're talking about validity. You can have a valid argument with false premises. But soundness requires premises to be true.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

4th July 2022, 07:15 AM	#453
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Which would imply that it is instead a true premise. But whatever. My point is that if you start by assuming that a false premise is actually true, your logic can be rock solid and you will still come to conclusions that are false. Your logic isn't at fault, just the premise on which you build it. No it does not.... do you know what unfalsifiable is??
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	__________________ Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words. Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

4th July 2022, 07:37 AM	#454
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	Originally Posted by psionl0 Proof that denial is not just a river in Egypt. The river in Egypt is called the Nile... "denial" is an English word which signifies what apologists of your ilk do when faced with the cognition of reality which is dissonant with their Blind Faith about their deadbeat sky daddies.
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	__________________ Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words. Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

4th July 2022, 09:58 AM	#455
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 30,839	I swear I don’t understand what most of you are arguing about. Logic cannot prove the existence of a God. But logic can point out the flaws in people's argument for the existence of a God. In fact, most of the arguments I've heard for it's existence are logically flawed. They are almost all loaded with circular reasoning, tautological nonsense, and fallacy after fallacy. Otherwise they say it's faith which is more honest, but is just as ridiculous.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

4th July 2022, 11:38 AM	#456
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	Originally Posted by acbytesla I swear I don’t understand what most of you are arguing about. Logic cannot prove the existence of a God. But logic can point out the flaws in people's argument for the existence of a God. In fact, most of the arguments I've heard for it's existence are logically flawed. They are almost all loaded with circular reasoning, tautological nonsense, and fallacy after fallacy. Otherwise they say it's faith which is more honest, but is just as ridiculous.
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	__________________ Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words. Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

4th July 2022, 02:31 PM	#457
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	Originally Posted by psionl0 There are plenty of passages in the bible that directly contradict the ones you cherry picked . It took me all of an hour to collate the list of verses from the bible that prove beyond doubt that your deadbeat sky daddy is vile evil turpitude. And I asked you to live up to your above statement that you can find verses that "directly contradict" my verses. It has been over 12 hours and so far nary a whimper... I will wait... but I know I will be long putrefied before you ever come up with anything that is valid. In the meantime here are a few more verses you can add to the list that irrefutably prove the extent of your deadbeat sky daddy's depravity... 2 Samuel 21:1-14 and Joshua 7:1-26.... if it will make it easier for you, you can start with these before any of the others... you do not even have to show any verses that contradict them... just do your usual apologetics and see if you can come up with an excuse for why he is not a vile deceiving monster as amply demonstrated in those verses.
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	__________________ Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words. Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

4th July 2022, 03:28 PM	#458
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane. Posts: 7,075	Originally Posted by Leumas In the Bible it never says that YHWH made Adam perfect... he made him callow and out of DIRT... and his only purpose was to be a GARDENER for YHWH's orchard. He made Adam in his own image and He is supposed to be perfect. I suppose He made Eve to look like his female side.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

4th July 2022, 04:20 PM	#459
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 30,839	Originally Posted by Leumas It took me all of an hour to collate the list of verses from the bible that prove beyond doubt that your deadbeat sky daddy is vile evil turpitude. And I asked you to live up to your above statement that you can find verses that "directly contradict" my verses. It has been over 12 hours and so far nary a whimper... I will wait... but I know I will be long putrefied before you ever come up with anything that is valid. In the meantime here are a few more verses you can add to the list that irrefutably prove the extent of your deadbeat sky daddy's depravity... 2 Samuel 21:1-14 and Joshua 7:1-26.... if it will make it easier for you, you can start with these before any of the others... you do not even have to show any verses that contradict them... just do your usual apologetics and see if you can come up with an excuse for why he is not a vile deceiving monster as amply demonstrated in those verses. It took you an hour? It took me a couple of minutes. Here's a pretty good list. https://infidels.org/library/modern/...rgan-atrocity/
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

4th July 2022, 04:32 PM	#460
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	Originally Posted by Thor 2 He made Adam in his own image and He is supposed to be perfect. I suppose He made Eve to look like his female side. Nope... the bible never said that... the REAL GOD of Genesis 1 created humans ... man AND woman together at the same time with his word and in his image and told them to go forth be fruitful and multiply and have dominance over the Earth... entire Earth... read this post. The LESSER god YHWH ... of Genesis 2... molded mud-man alone no woman ... out of mud... not in his image ... and he was told to be the GARDENER of the garden YHWH made for himself on Earth in which to stroll in the cool of the afternoon. YHWH then decided to mold out of mud some cows and sheep for "help meet" for the poor solitary lonely mud-man... and when that did not "amuse" him YHWH decided to wrench his baculum and BUILD Eve. So no... YHWH did not make man perfect nor in his image... he made a callow gardener out the dirt he was supposed to till... and YHWH never intended for Adam to "know" Eve ... when they did he fired them and threw them out of the garden. I suggest you read Genesis 1 to 3 carefully... and notice one thing... God = Elohim ... The Lord God = YHWH elohim.... Genesis 1 never mentions the name YHWH which does not come onto the stage until Genesis 2:4. Note: Noah was descended from Seth the third son of Mud-Man and Eve... and since all the creation of Elohim got annihilated by YHWH and only Noah and his family were saved... this implies that the humans whom Elohim created perfect and in his image are long ago gone... and earth is now populated by MOLDED and BUILT out of mud descendants of mud-man who was neither perfect nor in the image of any god let alone God. Note: All this of course is in the fairy tale universe of the Bible... nothing to do with reality of course.
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	__________________ Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words. Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly. Last edited by Leumas; 4th July 2022 at 05:26 PM.

4th July 2022, 05:11 PM	#461
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	Originally Posted by acbytesla It took you an hour? It took me a couple of minutes. Here's a pretty good list. https://infidels.org/library/modern/...rgan-atrocity/ A very good list... thanks... I will look at it carefully soon... but... I noticed it does not have 2 Samuel 21... also some of mine are not there ... but it has some stuff I do not have. Also... I use the Masoretic text for the Tanakh (OT) stuff to ensure fairness to the exact meaning and in context and to make sure it says YHWH not something else. Thanks ... I will make sure to update my list... ETA: by the way... there are scads more that I did not bother to do because there might be some verses in opposition if construed and wrung apologetically... I wanted a list that cannot have contradictory verses... as far as I can wring and contort... but some apologists might teach me something new one day.
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	__________________ Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words. Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly. Last edited by Leumas; 4th July 2022 at 05:18 PM.

4th July 2022, 05:14 PM	#462
Myriad The Clarity Is Devastating Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Betwixt Posts: 19,248	Originally Posted by Leumas Nope... the bible never said that... the REAL GOD of Genesis 1 created humans ... man AND woman together at the same time with his word and in his image and told them to go forth be fruitful and multiply and have dominance over the Earth... entire Earth... read this post. The LESSER god YHWH ... of Genesis 2... molded mud-man alone no woman ... out of mud... not in his image ... and he was told to be the GARDENER of the garden YHWH made for himself on Earth in which to stroll in the cool of the afternoon. YHWH then decided to mold out of mud some cows and sheep for "help meet" for the poor solitary lonely mud-man... and when that did not "amuse" him YHWH decided to wrench his baculum and BUILD Eve. So no... YHWH did not make man perfect nor in his image... he made a callow gardener out the dirt he was supposed to till... and YHWH never intended for Adam to "know" Eve ... when they did he fired them and threw them out of the garden. Argumentum ad baculum.
	__________________ A zømbie once bit my sister...

4th July 2022, 05:22 PM	#463
p0lka Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: near trees, houses and a lake. Posts: 2,924	Originally Posted by Myriad Argumentum ad baculum. Advocatus Diaboli, methinks.

4th July 2022, 05:35 PM	#464
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 30,839	Originally Posted by Leumas A very good list... thanks... I will look at it carefully soon... but... I noticed it does not have 2 Samuel 21... also some of mine are not there ... but it has some stuff I do not have. Also... I use the Masoretic text for the Tanakh (OT) stuff to ensure fairness to the exact meaning and in context and to make sure it says YHWH not something else. Thanks ... I will make sure to update my list... ETA: by the way... there are scads more that I did not bother to do because there might be some verses in opposition if construed and wrung apologetically... I wanted a list that cannot have contradictory verses... as far as I can wring and contort... but some apologists might teach me something new one day. Here's another good list. https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html Also, Dan Barker a former fundamentalist preacher wrote a pretty good book titled GOD: The Most Unpleasant Character in All Fiction. He lists what he considers the 10 worst Old Testament passages. https://ffrf.org/about/getting-acqua...stament-verses
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

4th July 2022, 05:42 PM	#465
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 30,839	Originally Posted by p0lka Advocatus Diaboli, methinks. Let me give you a little inside information about God. God likes to watch. He's a prankster. Think about it. He gives man instincts. He gives you this extraordinary gift, and then what does he do? I swear for His own amusement, his own private, cosmic gag reel, He sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time. Look but don't touch. Touch, but don't taste. Taste, don't swallow. Ahaha. And while you're jumpin' from one foot to the next, what is he doing? He's laughin' His sick, ******' ass off! He's a tight-ass! He's a SADIST! He's an absentee landlord! Worship that? NEVER!
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

4th July 2022, 06:36 PM	#466
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	Originally Posted by acbytesla Here's another good list. https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html Also, Dan Barker a former fundamentalist preacher wrote a pretty good book titled GOD: The Most Unpleasant Character in All Fiction. He lists what he considers the 10 worst Old Testament passages. https://ffrf.org/about/getting-acqua...stament-verses Thanks!!! Top ten list of Dan Barker is ok... but could have chosen worse things... I have not read that book yet... I am probably going to wait for the Audible version.
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	__________________ Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words. Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

4th July 2022, 06:38 PM	#467
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	Originally Posted by p0lka Advocatus Diaboli, methinks. Defense Lawyer: Your honor... why does the prosecution keep bringing up my client's crimes but not those of the devil... he must be a fan of the devil.
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	__________________ Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words. Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly. Last edited by Leumas; 4th July 2022 at 08:38 PM.

4th July 2022, 06:45 PM	#468
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	Originally Posted by Myriad Argumentum ad baculum. Good one!!! ETA:But in this case it is a factual argument not a fallacious one... though it might be an argument from fellatio.
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	__________________ Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words. Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly. Last edited by Leumas; 4th July 2022 at 08:41 PM.

4th July 2022, 06:57 PM	#469
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	Originally Posted by acbytesla Let me give you a little inside information about God. God likes to watch. He's a prankster. Think about it. He gives man instincts. He gives you this extraordinary gift, and then what does he do? I swear for His own amusement, his own private, cosmic gag reel, He sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time. Look but don't touch. Touch, but don't taste. Taste, don't swallow. Ahaha. And while you're jumpin' from one foot to the next, what is he doing? He's laughin' His sick, ****' ass off! He's a tight-ass! He's a SADIST! He's an absentee landlord! Worship that? NEVER! A lascivious voyeur... he makes Ananias and Sapphira drop dead on the spot for lying about not giving all THEIR money to the communist cult of Jesus... but he watches and keeps watching all over the world for millennia his caste of licentious perverts ravaging children** and does not lift a finger to make them drop dead like he did Ananias and Sapphira.
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	__________________ Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words. Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

4th July 2022, 06:57 PM	#470
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 30,839	Originally Posted by Leumas Thanks!!! Top ten list of Dan Barker is ok... but could have chosen worse things... I have not read that book yet... I am probably going to wait for the Audible version. I'm a big fan of Dan Barker.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

4th July 2022, 07:21 PM	#471
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	Originally Posted by acbytesla I'm a big fan of Dan Barker. Yes ... me too... I like his FFRF podcasts...I liked his book the Christian Delusion.
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	__________________ Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words. Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

4th July 2022, 09:21 PM	#472
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 32,810	Originally Posted by Thor 2 He made Adam in his own image and He is supposed to be perfect. I suppose He made Eve to look like his female side. But an image is not the real thing. God could not realistically make another God, being, as he said himself, jealous. I th8nk we have to give old Jehova the point here. Adam could never be perfect. There's plenty else to blame him for, including making Adam in the first place, since he has to have known what was coming. Really the god of the Bible is just a super-sized kid and the world is his train set.
	__________________ I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) "There is another world, but it's in this one." (Paul Eluard)

4th July 2022, 09:40 PM	#473
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	Originally Posted by bruto But an image is not the real thing. God could not realistically make another God, being, as he said himself, jealous. I th8nk we have to give old Jehova the point here. Adam could never be perfect. There's plenty else to blame him for, including making Adam in the first place, since he has to have known what was coming. Really the god of the Bible is just a super-sized kid and the world is his train set.
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	__________________ Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words. Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

4th July 2022, 11:58 PM	#474
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	Originally Posted by GDon ... ... "For its purpose." Leads to a greater good. ... Leads to a greater good. ... Leads to a greater good: ... Leads to a greater good: ... which results in a greater good. ... lead to a greater good With apologies to John Maynard Keynes ~~Capitalism~~ YHWH is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5,916	__________________ Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words. Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly. Last edited by Leumas; 5th July 2022 at 12:02 AM.

5th July 2022, 12:49 AM	#475
GDon Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 1,366	Originally Posted by Leumas With apologies to John Maynard Keynes ~~Capitalism~~ YHWH is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone. Nothing more dangerous than a man who is convinced he speaks for God so he acts against others for their own good with God's blessings. The Buddhists have a saying: "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!" CS Lewis famously wrote: “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”
GDon Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 1,366	Last edited by GDon; 5th July 2022 at 12:57 AM.