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1st July 2022, 12:29 AM | #2521 |
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The tragedy of Crypto is that it correctly identifies all the problems with modern banking and finance, and then proceeds to repeat them all.
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1st July 2022, 12:30 AM | #2522 |
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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1st July 2022, 07:29 PM | #2523 |
"más divertido"
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3rd July 2022, 05:28 AM | #2524 |
Illuminator
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Firstly, you are using the word "usually" quite a lot which means that many of the features you listed are not absolutely needed for something to be a Ponzi scheme. For example the "usually actually you buy something physical" feature is only applicable to a subset of Ponzi schemes called "multi-level marketing".
The thing that makes Bitcoin similar to a Ponzi scheme is that the the early investors make money at the expense of the later investors and there is no other mechanism for increasing the value of Bitcoins.
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This is the problem with the crypto cultists. They think answering a question with a question makes them look smart.
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I've told you what we need gold for. Now you tell me what we need cryptocurrency for. |
3rd July 2022, 06:44 AM | #2525 |
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Ponzi schemes work until the investors find out that there is no money making scheme in it after all. Only then do those still invested in the scheme lose their investment.
You are saying that Ponzi schemes fail in the end and bitcoin will fail in the end therefore bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme. This is the equivalent of saying my dog is a cat because it has 4 legs. You have no basis for saying that bitcoin will fail in the end except for a fortune cookie. You can't assume that it is a ponzi scheme because that is what you are trying to prove. This is the logical fallacy of "begging the question". The simple fact is that bitcoin is a tradable digital asset. Nothing more. Nothing less. |
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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3rd July 2022, 04:55 PM | #2526 |
Illuminator
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But that's not true. In ponzi scheme the 'market cap' rises, rises .. and then it collapses. Bitcoin is normally traded, the price goes up, down, up again. Buying early and selling later does not guarantee profit. You have to buy low, and sell high. And for example now the price is dropping, so people who buy later are in better position to make profit.
What would be the price of gold if it suddenly become abundant, let's say like iron ? In other words, how big % of gold price is it's usefulness, and how big % of the price is just a hype ? We don't really need cryptocurrency. Just as we don't really need gold. Both are useful for some things .. but that is not what dictates their price. Both are primarily used as means of value transfer, as store of value (also both independent of governments), and for speculation. |
3rd July 2022, 08:46 PM | #2527 |
Not a doctor.
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5th July 2022, 03:19 AM | #2528 |
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Agreed. And what do you think happens when the Bitcoin investors realise there is no money making scheme in it after all?
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5th July 2022, 04:46 AM | #2529 |
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You know the price of Bitcoin isn't magic? The only way to buy low is if somebody sells low and the only way to sell high is if somebody else buys high. Bitcoin is a zero sum game. No new value is generated by trading in Bitcoin. In fact, you could argue trading in Bitcoin destroys value because of the amount of energy required to validate transactions.
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5th July 2022, 06:42 AM | #2530 |
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
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Just in case anyone is interested, ...
The RadioShack Company now has its own cryptocurrentcy that is worth almost one penny per coin. https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/RADI...ycsrp_catchall |
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5th July 2022, 11:17 PM | #2531 |
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They already know that. Bitcoin is not a share in any scheme whatsoever. It is purely a digital asset whose price fluctuates.
FALSE! This isn't even the definition of a ponzi scheme. It is the runner of the scheme who makes the money. Some investors who get in early can also exit with a profit but most will be left high and dry when the scheme fails. Bitcoin is just a tradeable asset. You make money by buying low and selling high - just like every commodity in the world. Pure fortune telling. You are just one of millions who have made that prediction every single time a bitcoin bubble burst. They have all been left with egg on their faces when bitcoin recovered yet again. But why trade in it when it is good for nothing that can't be done better with fiat currencies or real commodities?[/quote] Still can't be bothered to read the explanations? |
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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6th July 2022, 04:06 AM | #2532 |
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Fiat currency is regulated and dependent on currency issuer. Bitcoin is not.
Bitcoin clearly has something people want. And I'm saying it's the same thing which gives gold value. It's scarce, cannot be faked, can be easily traded, is universally accepted, also it's well known. Those are all values. And bitcoin is also shiny. When was the last time you heard someone boasting about his gold online ? |
6th July 2022, 05:22 AM | #2533 |
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You realise that when everybody realises it is a scam, the price will fluctuate to zero?
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If I want to trade in commodities, why not use real commodities that have a value to consumers of the commodity? If I want to invest in something, why not invest in stocks and shares? If I want to transfer money from A to B, why not use fiat currency? If I want to buy something, why not use fiat currency? |
6th July 2022, 05:35 AM | #2534 |
Illuminator
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Well that's an advantage for fiat currency.
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Bitcoin is artificially scarce but that's down to a few lines of code that could easily be removed. Indeed other cryptocoins do not have the same kind of artificial scarcity. I don't know how you arrived at the idea that anybody would believe the claim that Bitcoin is universally accepted. I can't go down to the corner shop and buy a pint of milk with it. I can't pay it into my bank account and I can't pay my taxes with it. |
6th July 2022, 06:44 AM | #2535 |
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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6th July 2022, 07:00 AM | #2536 |
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6th July 2022, 08:06 AM | #2537 |
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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6th July 2022, 08:59 PM | #2538 |
Illuminator
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Well, people handle the fact they didn't buy in 2015 differently ..
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7th July 2022, 10:22 AM | #2539 |
Penultimate Amazing
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That's what makes it useful as a currency. The fact that bitcoin is not, means that it is by definition useless as a currency.
Not really. Most people don't see it as anything but numbers on a chart, and get fooled into thinking it's somehow similar to other things like stocks, bonds and commodities that have similar looking charts but actual represent real things with significant real utility. |
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7th July 2022, 03:08 PM | #2540 |
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It's clearly not useless as a currency, as it is used as a currency. Certainly is not good as a currency. But it may be better than some currencies in the world. And it's similar in this aspect to gold, which was used as currency for ages.
I'm talking about people who bought bitcoin. The market cap is $400 billion at the moment. That's not insignificant amount of 'want'. |
7th July 2022, 07:24 PM | #2541 |
"más divertido"
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The “market cap” is $400 billion, you mean.
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8th July 2022, 04:11 PM | #2542 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Nothing is denominated in bitcoin, so it's not being used as a currency. The reason nothing is denominated in bitcoin is because no one knows what it will be worth next week so you don't know how much to charge for anything.
I don't consider speculation to be utility. These people don't want bitcoin they want the real currency they think they can exchange it for later on. The problem is that until they exchange it for real currency they have earned nothing and if everyone wants to exchange it for real currency it's worth nothing. |
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9th July 2022, 01:21 AM | #2543 |
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This is SO 2011!
Bitcoin haters constantly try to ignore the fact that you can transfer bitcoins in any amount around the world within minutes, at low cost (in bitcoins) and without needing anybody's approval. You might not have a personal use for this facility but that doesn't mean that you get to say that bitcoin has no utility. |
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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9th July 2022, 09:00 AM | #2544 |
Penultimate Amazing
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True then true now.
There many other better ways to move funds around than bitcoin. When you use a less effective tool to do a job you lose utility. Technically anything that makes you happy produces utility, but if what makes you happy is delivering refrigerators by bicycle the opportunity cost is going to outweigh any personal satisfaction generated. Just because bitcoin gives you happy feelings doesn't mean it provides any net benefits to anyone, in fact the opportunity costs harm everyone. |
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9th July 2022, 06:55 PM | #2545 |
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We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good. |
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10th July 2022, 01:01 AM | #2546 |
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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12th July 2022, 04:46 AM | #2547 |
Penultimate Amazing
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As bitcoin and the cryptosphere generally inexorably lurch towards the maker, it is sad to see how lives have been obliterated by the evil crypto embodies.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/...K2EWUATCE4Z2E/ "During the pandemic, we bought a plot of land for US$5,000 not far from here," she said, looking up towards the verdant hillside. "We had US$7,000 in savings to build a house, but my husband became obsessed with Bitcoin. He put US$1,000 in the account but it went down to US$400. I told him to withdraw, but he put more in because the president kept saying it would go up. It never did. "We lost thousands and now can't afford a roof. We have a plot of land with just walls." Molina, who has a 6-year-old daughter, earns just US$10 a day. Inflation in El Salvador was 7.5 per cent in May, but food prices are up by 13.5 per cent. "We can't get a loan from the bank now. We've had to put our dream on pause. We're worried about what to eat each day, not about Bitcoin going up and down." |
12th July 2022, 05:12 AM | #2548 |
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I went into a gas station this morning and to my chagrin forgot to take a picture of the window where there was a "bitcoin ATM buy bitcoin here" sign directly above the "live bait" sign. Which I found funny for some reason. If they were selling tulip bulbs it would have been too on the nose.
This has meaning. I have no idea what, but at this point there being a bitcoin ATM in the second biggest (of two) gas stations in an off the beaten trail West Virginia town of 2500 people where the average age is probably north of 50 and the median household income about 50K, well... |
12th July 2022, 05:27 AM | #2549 |
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Is it an inexorable lurch, or just a readjustment before settling into a more stable trading pattern or even soaring upwards in price ?
I've always been sceptical of crypto-currencies because I don't understand what underpins their value, but if I'd listened to people in this thread a few years ago and bought bitcoin when they advocated doing so (and when they reportedly did it themselves) then I wouldn't have to work any more. Yes, that is something to consider. Don't invest what you cannot afford to lose and/or make sure to diversify. If the man in the news story had just invested $1k of his $7k then for sure he'd be rueing his decision but he wouldn't have been ruined. |
13th July 2022, 07:04 PM | #2550 |
Philosopher
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He did invest it - in Bitcoin.
But Bitcoin is a very risky investment. Why? We all know the reason. Its value represents only sentiment. Most of the people who buy and hold it only do so because they are |
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13th July 2022, 07:09 PM | #2551 |
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13th July 2022, 08:35 PM | #2552 |
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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14th July 2022, 03:21 AM | #2553 |
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14th July 2022, 03:52 AM | #2554 |
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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14th July 2022, 04:05 AM | #2555 |
Penultimate Amazing
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14th July 2022, 11:20 AM | #2556 |
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14th July 2022, 11:32 AM | #2557 |
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Around here they are in the "Totally for tobacco use only no realzies" headshops next to the glass pipes and the rolling papers.
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19th July 2022, 05:18 AM | #2558 |
Illuminator
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You haven't made any counter arguments. I asked what cryptocurrency is useful for that is both legal and not better served by fiat currency.
No answer. Zip. Nothing. Nada. All I've had so far from any of you crypto cultists is that "it's not regulated". That's not a use and it's a major disadvantage compared to fiat currency. |
19th July 2022, 05:29 AM | #2559 |
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The two main reasons I can think of off the top of my head for regulating the movement of money around the world are to make it harder to launder the proceeds of crimes and to prevent the evasion of taxes.
Neither money laundering nor tax evasion are good for me as a potential crime victim and a user of government services like education, healthcare, roads, law enforcement etc. |
19th July 2022, 06:25 AM | #2560 |
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