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Old 5th February 2019, 05:40 PM   #41
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Anne Rice comes to mind.
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Old 5th February 2019, 05:52 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Arguably, yes, although I'm not suggesting they should be prevented from doing so.
Right, so what (specifically) have they done that they should not have done?
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Old 5th February 2019, 06:06 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Anne Rice comes to mind.
Did she harass people that gave her bad reviews?
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Old 5th February 2019, 06:28 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
One of those cases where there's not enough information to be sure what has actually happened. According to the author she was was inspired by indentured servitude in China, but it seems that some reviewing it have taken it to be a commentary on American-style slavery (because, obviously, that's the only form of slavery or pseudo-slavery that has ever existed!), which if actually so, would be a pretty dumb assumption on their part.

If you read the tablet article in the OP you will see that at least one of the people who started this off seems to think that oppression can only be based on skin color, which is a complete nonsense if you know anything about Irish history, where the oppression was based on religion. Katherine Kerr's 'Polar City' duology has oppression based on telepathy (Telepaths are persecuted, most of the inhabitants of the setting are PoC (Black Race), so skin color has nothing to do with it.) and I can probably dig up some more with time.
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Old 5th February 2019, 06:57 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Did she harass people that gave her bad reviews?
Yes. IIRC, it was people who gave her bad reviews on Amazon.
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:07 PM   #46
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Is "book burning" going to fall into disrepair as a term? I sure hope not. There are still enough issues surrounding communities, libraries and schools trying to censor various works that I would hate to see Yelp Trashing elevated to book burning status.

Now get off my lawn ya damned kids.
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Old 6th February 2019, 02:09 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post


You are defining "trashed" as some complete severance, I wasn't.
So you were defining "trashed" as "still completely in force and publicly affirmed by the publishing company"? That's not what most people would consider a normal definition of the word.

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Old 6th February 2019, 02:28 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
If you read the tablet article in the OP you will see that at least one of the people who started this off seems to think that oppression can only be based on skin color, which is a complete nonsense if you know anything about Irish history, where the oppression was based on religion. Katherine Kerr's 'Polar City' duology has oppression based on telepathy (Telepaths are persecuted, most of the inhabitants of the setting are PoC (Black Race), so skin color has nothing to do with it.) and I can probably dig up some more with time.
Or indeed just about any country's history; anyone for the burning of the Christians? The expulsion of the Jews. The protestant martyrs? Remember the Huguenots!

A better example might be the Barbary slave trade where Christians were taken in slave raids to Africa to be sold into slavery. Almost all the inhabitants of the village of Baltimore, in Ireland, were taken in 1631 to be sold into slavery. The coast and islands of the mediterranean were depopulated by the slavers. Perhaps a million christians taken from Europe to Africa as slaves. This was not discrimination on race but religion. I wonder how these 'critics' would have responded to "The Sealwoman's Gift" a novel about Icelanders taken to Africa to be sold into slavery? Sadly slavery is a human practice not limited to one particular group of humans.
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Old 6th February 2019, 06:47 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Or indeed just about any country's history; anyone for the burning of the Christians? The expulsion of the Jews. The protestant martyrs? Remember the Huguenots!

A better example might be the Barbary slave trade where Christians were taken in slave raids to Africa to be sold into slavery. Almost all the inhabitants of the village of Baltimore, in Ireland, were taken in 1631 to be sold into slavery. The coast and islands of the mediterranean were depopulated by the slavers. Perhaps a million christians taken from Europe to Africa as slaves. This was not discrimination on race but religion. I wonder how these 'critics' would have responded to "The Sealwoman's Gift" a novel about Icelanders taken to Africa to be sold into slavery? Sadly slavery is a human practice not limited to one particular group of humans.

What you have to remember is that Social Justice, like most conspiracy theories is profoundly Americocentric. If it did not happen in the United States then it never happened at all.



I know for a fact that the Abbasid Dynasty in what is now Iraq imported large numbers of East African slaves to drain the Tigris-Euphrates marshes. The slaves revolted in the 800s and it took around a decade to put the revolt down. The leaders heads were paraded through Baghdad on pikes. But in America nothing is known of this, instead students are taught that slavery was 'invented' in the United States.
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Old 6th February 2019, 07:26 AM   #50
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We’re more sort of taught it was reinvigorated in the States. But you’re right that public school history mostly goes USA, England, Germany, France, Spain, Discovering The Americas, and the ancients: Rome, Greece, a little China. Tigris and Euphrates. Fertile Crescent.

I had indeed never heard of any slave rebellion around 800 in that area, even in passing, and I think I would have remembered that (cause I was already ****-stirring about biblical history not being the same as actual history and I usually checked stuff like that wasn’t just being lifted from religion and passed off in history class).
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Old 6th February 2019, 10:12 AM   #51
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I think that, for $500,000, I could be persuaded to not go on twitter for quite a while.

Ignore the tiny number of loud asshats and listen to your editor.

Step three, (actually steps one through three in this case,) profit.
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Old 6th February 2019, 11:59 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
I think that, for $500,000, I could be persuaded to not go on twitter for quite a while.
I think the catch is that twitter may be needed to draw attention to the book, especially with a younger audience. Interacting on twitter may even be a component of the contract.
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Old 6th February 2019, 12:09 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
I think the catch is that twitter may be needed to draw attention to the book, especially with a younger audience. Interacting on twitter may even be a component of the contract.
Oh, dear. There go my dreams of making it big in that market. 'Hello, youths! If you like a corking good read you should navigate your... Instant grahams...to check out my exciting new book! It's killer! So radically...meme?...it'll knock your Swatches off. I think.'

Perhaps there's an opening in the market for Elderly Adult fantasy.
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Old 6th February 2019, 01:40 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
I think the catch is that twitter may be needed to draw attention to the book, especially with a younger audience. Interacting on twitter may even be a component of the contract.
I think you may be right.

I also think that twitter users aren’t to be trusted to have the attention-span to read a book at all, much less offer cogent criticism.
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Old 6th February 2019, 02:37 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
I think the catch is that twitter may be needed to draw attention to the book, especially with a younger audience. Interacting on twitter may even be a component of the contract.
That's fine; I'm sure I wouldn't have made more than $500,000 on the book.
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Old 6th February 2019, 02:41 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Right, so what (specifically) have they done that they should not have done?
I don't know, I can't remember what we were talking about.
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Old 6th February 2019, 02:44 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
So you were defining "trashed" as "still completely in force and publicly affirmed by the publishing company"? That's not what most people would consider a normal definition of the word.

Dave
She's been accused of writing a racist book. That is a trashed reputation. We don't know if the book will go on sale later. That the publisher didn't cut her loose is a good thing.

When a bunch of people call your book racist and start a one star review pile-on it's horrible. Most writers, especially new writers, are very sensitive to criticism.

However, I don't expect people not involved in trying to sell or market their debut novel to understand.
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Old 6th February 2019, 02:47 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
I think the catch is that twitter may be needed to draw attention to the book, especially with a younger audience. Interacting on twitter may even be a component of the contract.
Not just Twitter, there are also blogs. A lot of people have become recognized YA critics and it can amplify or dampen sales. Writers fall all over themselves to get a review by one of these people who have thousands of followers.

It's reviewers with followers, not Twitter per se.
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Old 6th February 2019, 02:56 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Yes. IIRC, it was people who gave her bad reviews on Amazon.
Which is pretty dumb.
Rice has a thin skin; she got really angry at Joss Whedon for the way he sent up Anne Rice's vampire novels in "Buffy The Vampre Slayer" ' a good example was when Spike (a vampire) said "God, People still fall for that Anne Rice Crap?".
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Old 6th February 2019, 02:58 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Oh, dear. There go my dreams of making it big in that market. 'Hello, youths! If you like a corking good read you should navigate your... Instant grahams...to check out my exciting new book! It's killer! So radically...meme?...it'll knock your Swatches off. I think.'

Perhaps there's an opening in the market for Elderly Adult fantasy.
The problem I have with all this dystopian YA fiction is it's all the same. It has become a genre totally dominated by clichés.
If you publish a book, you have to expect criticism.
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Old 6th February 2019, 03:01 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The problem I have with all this dystopian YA fiction is it's all the same.
It totally is: Chosen one, special powers yadda yadda.

But every once in a while a fresh story comes along. I have not read Blood Heir yet but I will when it's published.
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Old 6th February 2019, 03:19 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
She's been accused of writing a racist book. That is a trashed reputation.
So, not a trashed deal then.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
When a bunch of people call your book racist and start a one star review pile-on it's horrible. Most writers, especially new writers, are very sensitive to criticism.
I entirely agree. But overstating the case doesn't help.

Dave
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Old 7th February 2019, 08:22 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It wasn't "clumsy".

The advanced readers were, IMO, of narrow world experience. There is a push at the moment for more persons of color (POC) authors and characters in books, including YA books. So people are seeing what they are expecting to see rather than what is actually there.
That was my understanding of the criticism, is that an Asian author wrote about black slaves being sold at auction that was supposedly a hamfisted use of the American slave market trope. Whether or not this criticism is valid I don't know.

Seems like the reaction was a bit much for what was boils down to an accusation of mediocre writing and not willful insensitivity of the history of american racism.
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Old 7th February 2019, 09:52 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
That was my understanding of the criticism, is that an Asian author wrote about black slaves being sold at auction that was supposedly a hamfisted use of the American slave market trope. Whether or not this criticism is valid I don't know.

Seems like the reaction was a bit much for what was boils down to an accusation of mediocre writing and not willful insensitivity of the history of american racism.
The Asian author clearly stated that she wrote what she wrote based on her knowledge of slavery in China.

Some of the reviewers found any reference to slavery in Asia to be absurd and unbelievable. They found any reference to people who are not black being slaves to be racist. They assumed that her claims are writing about slavery in China was either a lie or showed willful naivety.

One reviewer flat out stated that any concept of slavery not being based on race was racist, that any mention of slaves not being black was racist.

As another forum member has mentioned, there is a strain of social justice theory in America that is very, very American-centered.
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Old 7th February 2019, 10:44 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Oh, dear. There go my dreams of making it big in that market. 'Hello, youths! If you like a corking good read you should navigate your... Instant grahams...to check out my exciting new book! It's killer! So radically...meme?...it'll knock your Swatches off. I think.'

Perhaps there's an opening in the market for Elderly Adult fantasy.
That's ageist. You just lost the contract.
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Old 7th February 2019, 10:44 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
The Asian author clearly stated that she wrote what she wrote based on her knowledge of slavery in China.

Some of the reviewers found any reference to slavery in Asia to be absurd and unbelievable. They found any reference to people who are not black being slaves to be racist. They assumed that her claims are writing about slavery in China was either a lie or showed willful naivety.

One reviewer flat out stated that any concept of slavery not being based on race was racist, that any mention of slaves not being black was racist.

As another forum member has mentioned, there is a strain of social justice theory in America that is very, very American-centered.
That seems to be the rabbit hole, right there...
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Old 7th February 2019, 11:25 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
The Asian author clearly stated that she wrote what she wrote based on her knowledge of slavery in China.

Some of the reviewers found any reference to slavery in Asia to be absurd and unbelievable. They found any reference to people who are not black being slaves to be racist. They assumed that her claims are writing about slavery in China was either a lie or showed willful naivety.

One reviewer flat out stated that any concept of slavery not being based on race was racist, that any mention of slaves not being black was racist.

As another forum member has mentioned, there is a strain of social justice theory in America that is very, very American-centered.


Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
That seems to be the rabbit hole, right there...

Thanks for the clarification. I was never really that convinced by the original complaint and was really only trying to grant it as given for the sake of argument.

My whole point is, even if you agree with the viewpoint that an Asian woman writing about a slave market that seems divorced from the American black slave experience is insensitive, seems like calling the book irredeemably racist is an overreaction. Minor misuses of tropes or stretching a metaphor too thin seems at best a little tone deaf or hacky writing, but not the kind of hostile racism that warrants such a reaction.
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Old 7th February 2019, 12:16 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
So, not a trashed deal then.

I entirely agree. But overstating the case doesn't help.

Dave
I'm sorry you are hung up about this. It simply amounts to this being a very big deal in my book and not so much of one in yours.
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Old 7th February 2019, 12:18 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
That was my understanding of the criticism, is that an Asian author wrote about black slaves being sold at auction that was supposedly a hamfisted use of the American slave market trope. Whether or not this criticism is valid I don't know.

Seems like the reaction was a bit much for what was boils down to an accusation of mediocre writing and not willful insensitivity of the history of american racism.
No, there was no description of black slaves, that was read into it by the critics.

I'm going by what the author said as the book is not yet available to read.
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Old 7th February 2019, 01:06 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Thanks for the clarification. I was never really that convinced by the original complaint and was really only trying to grant it as given for the sake of argument.

My whole point is, even if you agree with the viewpoint that an Asian woman writing about a slave market that seems divorced from the American black slave experience is insensitive, seems like calling the book irredeemably racist is an overreaction. Minor misuses of tropes or stretching a metaphor too thin seems at best a little tone deaf or hacky writing, but not the kind of hostile racism that warrants such a reaction.
SOme people need to live in a state of constant outrage;if no legitimate reason exist to be outraged they will create one with whatever is at hand.
Problem is if you are good enough with the B.S,you can find racism is just about anything.
And, to think of it, it's not like historically BLack were the only ones who were sold at slave actions....
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Old 7th February 2019, 01:34 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
SOme people need to live in a state of constant outrage
Speaking of manufactured outrage, I once saw a thread where someone compared literary criticism to book burning.
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Old 7th February 2019, 01:44 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Speaking of manufactured outrage, I once saw a thread where someone compared literary criticism to book burning.
Hey,plenty of fake outrage to go around.
Thniking you have a right not to have your book criticized, and finding racism in just about everything are equally stupid.
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Old 7th February 2019, 01:47 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It totally is: Chosen one, special powers yadda yadda.

.
Joseph Campbell has a lot to answer for.
I take that back; people who misuse his work have a lot to answer for.
Hey, it's not a tired cliché, it's a Campbellian Archtype. I wish I never had to hear the term "Hero's Journey" again.
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Old 7th February 2019, 02:23 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
SOme people need to live in a state of constant outrage;if no legitimate reason exist to be outraged they will create one with whatever is at hand.
Problem is if you are good enough with the B.S,you can find racism is just about anything.
And, to think of it, it's not like historically BLack were the only ones who were sold at slave actions....
I think this is part of it and it's a shame a few of these people have made themselves part of the new release review group.
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Old 7th February 2019, 02:25 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Speaking of manufactured outrage, I once saw a thread where someone compared literary criticism to book burning.
It was an apt metaphor.
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Old 7th February 2019, 07:23 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It was an apt metaphor.

And in this case it's the right one. The whole point of the criticism was to prevent others from reading the book and being 'tainted' by the wrongthink contained within.

Back in 2018 author Caitlin R. Kiernan, who happens to be Transgendered, and who knows exactly what the Woke are capable of (They got dogpiled after declaring for Clinton in 2016 instead of Sanders.) wrote:

Quote:
"And, in the end, no one ever said anything ever again that could possibly offend anyone, so great was the fear of retribution. It was safer not to speak. No one felt oppressed or triggered ever again. Outrage and offense became a thing of the past, along with comedy and art, literature and casual conversation, film and, for that matter, sex. And there was peace and bland silence and a smothering grey stillness where once there had been a vibrant culture."
https://greygirlbeast.livejournal.com/1398856.html
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Last edited by Graham2001; 7th February 2019 at 07:26 PM.
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Old 7th February 2019, 08:24 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
And in this case it's the right one. The whole point of the criticism was to prevent others from reading the book and being 'tainted' by the wrongthink contained within.
But what if someone really did believe there was legitimate criticism to levy against the book? What else are they to do? Just keep it to themselves?
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Old 7th February 2019, 09:51 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
But what if someone really did believe there was legitimate criticism to levy against the book? What else are they to do? Just keep it to themselves?
If it had been legit criticism you probably wouldn't have seen a reaction like this. The author has a lot of support from other writers and the writing community.
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Old 7th February 2019, 10:08 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
If it had been legit criticism you probably wouldn't have seen a reaction like this.
This really sounds like you're judging the quality of the criticism by the reaction of its recipient. Perhaps you'd like to rephrase?
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Old 7th February 2019, 10:21 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
This really sounds like you're judging the quality of the criticism by the reaction of its recipient. Perhaps you'd like to rephrase?
Oh for pity's sake. Between you and Dave Rogers, I can't help it if you are missing the writing community's contribution to information here about what's going on.


I'm judging what's going on because I'm familiar with the big discussion of the issues being had in the writing community.
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