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Old 8th February 2019, 02:06 AM   #81
Dave Rogers
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Oh for pity's sake. Between you and Dave Rogers, I can't help it if you are missing the writing community's contribution to information here about what's going on.
I'm neither missing the point nor arguing that there isn't a serious issue; I'm simply pointing out that no books have been burned, no deals have been "trashed," and that over-stating your case makes it easier for the prejudiced to ignore. What has happened here is that a number of people have loudly expressed a criticism of a book, arguably based on ignorance, the author has withdrawn the book in order to consider whether the criticism merits response, and the publisher has stated publically that it will respect the author's wishes. So while you're complaining that a whole bunch of people are over-reacting and framing a non-issue in emotive language, perhaps you should take a quick look at the mote in your own eye and ask yourself why you're doing something disturbingly similar.

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Old 8th February 2019, 06:23 AM   #82
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Dave summarized the issue better than I could have. I will also add: Making anti-SJW outrage appear out of thin air is the world's easiest magic trick.
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Old 8th February 2019, 10:04 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
This really sounds like you're judging the quality of the criticism by the reaction of its recipient. Perhaps you'd like to rephrase?

Well, some of the criticism of this author is that the Whisper Network™ somehow magically knows when any computer user/author on the planet is taking screenshots - of the offending criticism or otherwise.

I guess the author should watch her step.
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Old 8th February 2019, 10:35 AM   #84
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Can't anybody write a fantasy novel for young adult girls without any princesses?!
The heroine can be white, black or colored, but please don't have her be a princess!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 8th February 2019, 10:39 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Can't anybody write a fantasy novel for young adult girls without any princesses?!
The heroine can be white, black or colored, but please don't have her be a princess!
'I'm glad our magic kingdom has neither racism nor princesses,' remarked Countess Ambyr Whitely. 'Instruct the melanin-abundant serfs to prepare my unicorn chariot!'
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Old 8th February 2019, 10:48 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It totally is: Chosen one, special powers yadda yadda.

But every once in a while a fresh story comes along. I have not read Blood Heir yet but I will when it's published.

I recently read another YT novel, Children of Blood and Bone, because it appeared to be based on the Orisha religion/mythology, which I know from Cuba.
But it was also about a chosen one with special powers, princes and princesses etc. I got through 75% of the book but just couldn't finish it.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 8th February 2019, 10:50 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
'I'm glad our magic kingdom has neither racism nor princesses,' remarked Countess Ambyr Whitely. 'Instruct the melanin-abundant serfs to prepare my unicorn chariot!'
Milord, the bicorns are raising a ruckus
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Old 8th February 2019, 10:53 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I recently read another YT novel, Children of Blood and Bone, because it appeared to be based on the Orisha religion/mythology, which I know from Cuba.
But it was also about a chosen one with special powers, princes and princesses etc. I got through 75% of the book but just couldn't finish it.
Obviously the classics of my youth are superior in every way to modern books. The Chronicles of Prydain featured a princess who kicked butt and a hero who was explicitly not special at all.

And I swear there's a gay subtext with Ellidyr and nobody can convince me otherwise.
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Old 8th February 2019, 11:38 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
And I swear there's a gay subtext with Ellidyr and nobody can convince me otherwise.

Really?! (I know nothing about the series apart from what I just read on Wikipedia)

Quote:
Ellidyr
Ellidyr is described as a prince, the son of a king who had nothing left to leave his son but "his name and his sword." He is deeply sensitive about his poverty, and covers this with arrogance, treating all whom he does not see as social equals with disdain and contempt. Adaon, with the aid of a magic talisman, sees this as a "black beast," sitting on Ellidyr's shoulders and tormenting him. At the end of the story, however, after realizing his follies, Ellidyr willingly sacrifices his own life to destroy the Black Cauldron.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 8th February 2019, 11:45 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Dave summarized the issue better than I could have. I will also add: Making anti-SJW outrage appear out of thin air is the world's easiest magic trick.
And a good reason for that is a lot of the stupidity we get from SJWs. Their motives are good, but their execution is terrible.
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Old 8th February 2019, 12:53 PM   #91
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I don't see what is has to do with book burning, but do you think that AOC is a SJW?

If so, what's wrong with her execution?

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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 8th February 2019, 04:20 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Dave summarized the issue better than I could have. I will also add: Making anti-SJW outrage appear out of thin air is the world's easiest magic trick.
So you have evidence or some knowledge that the critics that instigated this had valid points about the book being racist?

You are essentially taking their side here, claiming the attack on the critics could be the problem when pretty much all the evidence is the book is not racist (author's explanation, publisher and agent impressed by the book noticed no such thing, and there's support by the writing community that have read parts of the book).
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Old 8th February 2019, 04:22 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I recently read another YT novel, Children of Blood and Bone, because it appeared to be based on the Orisha religion/mythology, which I know from Cuba.
But it was also about a chosen one with special powers, princes and princesses etc. I got through 75% of the book but just couldn't finish it.
Everyone's raving about it. I'm about 8 chapters in and so far it seems like the same old story line to me. But I'll probably finish it to try to figure out what everyone is raving about.
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Old 8th February 2019, 04:35 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I don't see what is has to do with book burning, but do you think that AOC is a SJW?...
No. It doesn't mean one is advocating a certain POV. It's when that POV looks down the nose at other people, usually in a ludicrously extreme way.

Claiming to see not only black slavery that isn't there, but being offended it's a book element in a fictional work? That's getting SJW carried away.
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Old 8th February 2019, 04:38 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I'm neither missing the point nor arguing that there isn't a serious issue; I'm simply pointing out that no books have been burned, no deals have been "trashed," and that over-stating your case makes it easier for the prejudiced to ignore. What has happened here is that a number of people have loudly expressed a criticism of a book, arguably based on ignorance, the author has withdrawn the book in order to consider whether the criticism merits response, and the publisher has stated publically that it will respect the author's wishes. So while you're complaining that a whole bunch of people are over-reacting and framing a non-issue in emotive language, perhaps you should take a quick look at the mote in your own eye and ask yourself why you're doing something disturbingly similar.

Dave
And I explained to you that we see the story with different POVs yet you insist I see the story the way you do. I don't.

BTW, that's quite the straw man distortion of over-reacting. This is not about overreacting. It's about a small clique of SJWs attacking the work of a new author with an unreasonable accusation.
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Old 9th February 2019, 07:50 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Everyone's raving about it. I'm about 8 chapters in and so far it seems like the same old story line to me. But I'll probably finish it to try to figure out what everyone is raving about.

It's only gets worse. There's a Colosseum-like naval battle that's even more absurd than quidditch. And the romance stories are unbearable.
I'm not a teenage girl, of course, but I think that it's the kind of story that they'll look back on and shake their heads, wondering how they could stomach that ****. Unlike the good YA stuff that even grownups can read and enjoy.
And it's too bad, 'cause the Orisha stories could probably be turned into something interesting for modern readers, young and old. I enjoyed His Dark Materials, which I only read because it was supposed to be atheist (but wasn't really).
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 9th February 2019, 11:55 AM   #97
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I loved His Dark Materials. If you haven't read Daughter of Smoke and Bone, that's another excellent book in this genre I highly recommend. It's a trilogy.
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Old 9th February 2019, 12:41 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And I explained to you that we see the story with different POVs yet you insist I see the story the way you do. I don't.

BTW, that's quite the straw man distortion of over-reacting. This is not about overreacting. It's about a small clique of SJWs attacking the work of a new author with an unreasonable accusation.
It's also about unnecessary exaggeration on your part by claiming an outcome that clearly hadn't actually occurred.

Dave
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Old 9th February 2019, 06:30 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And a good reason for that is a lot of the stupidity we get from SJWs. Their motives are good, but their execution is terrible.
When they're being completely irrational while attacking people, their motives are not good. At that point, it's just performance art, and the motive is scoring points with others on their "side" and relishing the sheer hedonistic joy of bullying. It's completely divorced from any sort of pursuit of justice.
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Old 9th February 2019, 06:33 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
It's also about unnecessary exaggeration on your part by claiming an outcome that clearly hadn't actually occurred.

Dave
Round and around.

Perhaps I need to spell it out. Are you unable to understand one person's "unnecessary exaggeration" is another person's understatement?

This is a very big deal in the YA writers' and other fiction writers' circles.
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Old 9th February 2019, 06:45 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Perhaps I need to spell it out.
Perhaps you do. Start by saying what you meant when you said the deal was "trashed". That's the overstatement I object to.

Dave
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Old 9th February 2019, 06:55 PM   #102
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Guess spelling it out didn't help. You don't like my vocabulary choice? Meh.

Time to move on.
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Old 11th February 2019, 06:03 AM   #103
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I'm curious what the right move is for a young, unproven writer trying to enter the YA market. Many of them are sensitive to write stories that include long neglected communities, but it seems that doing so opens you up to this ridiculous criticism from nitpickers who label things racist simply for the thrill of twitter mobbing some vulnerable schmuck.

It's a strange state of affairs. The only people really vulnerable to these absurd complaints are writers who actually care about acceptance from this community. What would have happened, I wonder, if the author hadn't pulled the book? Would the twitter mob keep getting more and more angry. After all, lack of contrition is often more proof of guilt in these kinds of things. Or would have it all eventually blown over? I honestly don't know.

To be honest, being a YA author sounds exhausting. The audience is practically guaranteed to be melodramatic, hypersensitive, and extremely active on social media.
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Old 11th February 2019, 01:09 PM   #104
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I think this author in particular, from what I've read about her, is she was sensitive to the attacks, not that she was worried about the public's reaction to the book. Once she sees that she has strong support from the writing community, I'm hoping she'll release the book and not change it to appease the SJWs.

IMO:
As for pressure on writers, if you try to force writing about issues and groups of people, it's likely your book will feel forced. If people stick a black character here or a gay relationship there for the sake of integration it usually weakens the work. If on the other hand, you feel a calling (for lack of a better word) to a particular story, that motivation can make a stronger story. Bottom line is, write the story you want to tell, not the story you think publishers are looking to buy.

As for "The audience is practically guaranteed to be melodramatic, hypersensitive,..." that's crap. You are conflating a couple book reviewers with a whole community. Active on social media, OTOH, that's a given.
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Old 1st March 2019, 12:40 PM   #105
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Delicious irony update.

YA author who participated in the above mentioned twitter lynch mob has had his own book pulled by publisher after becoming target of same mob.

His book, which features a love story involving a gay, black American protagonist during the Kosovo war, has been attacked as insensitive to the minorities persecuted during that conflict. The focus of the outrage is that the antagonist of the book was a Muslim, which was claimed insensitive given the targeting of Muslims during the Kosovo crisis.

http://reason.com/archives/2019/02/2...ob-that-attack

Live by the mob, die by the mob.
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Old 1st March 2019, 06:21 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Delicious irony update.

YA author who participated in the above mentioned twitter lynch mob has had his own book pulled by publisher after becoming target of same mob.

His book, which features a love story involving a gay, black American protagonist during the Kosovo war, has been attacked as insensitive to the minorities persecuted during that conflict. The focus of the outrage is that the antagonist of the book was a Muslim, which was claimed insensitive given the targeting of Muslims during the Kosovo crisis.

http://reason.com/archives/2019/02/2...ob-that-attack

Live by the mob, die by the mob.

I just read that article, I think the most 'amusing' thing about it is that the author who is the subject of this most recent dogpiling actually posted a message that said essentially 'Only X should write about X'.


Eg.


Only PoC (Black Race) should write about PoC (Black Race)
Only Women should write about Women
Only Murderers should write about Murder


And as I've mentioned previously, one of the consistent criticisms in the German media in the 19th Century following the death of Beethoven was that a new composers first symphony was not either as good as or greater than Beethovens ninth symphony. The winnowing process that views like that initiated ended with Brahms First Symphony, I cannot believe that the process at work on social media will produce the same results. More likely it will produce bland pap and predictable 'whitey be evil' plot-lines.
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Old 1st March 2019, 07:56 PM   #107
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Ok so
Children of Blood and Bone, no
Daughter of Smoke and Bone, yes
I assume there’s another also unrelated book, Nephews of Fire and Bone?
Cousin of Dandruff and Bone?
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Old 1st March 2019, 09:44 PM   #108
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That's an interesting turn of events.

It's what happens when people are so quick to judge any of this. One phrase, one character's religion or circumstance.

I rarely agree with the Reason Libertarians but in this case, I think the article was well written.
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Old 1st March 2019, 09:51 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Ok so
Children of Blood and Bone, no
Daughter of Smoke and Bone, yes
I assume there’s another also unrelated book, Nephews of Fire and Bone?
Cousin of Dandruff and Bone?
No Fire and Bone Nephews but Winter's Bone with Jennifer Lawrence was excellent. I haven't read the book but I hear it's good too.



Zhao's book is Blood Heir. I'm looking forward to reading it and I hope she doesn't cave and change anything. How ironic these guys should get turned on by the SJW crowd. Makes you wonder if it was real sentiment or simple revenge.
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Old 4th March 2019, 07:56 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
More likely it will produce bland pap and predictable 'whitey be evil' plot-lines.
Seems that will be the only safe option.

It's a shame. Even a poorly written book about the Kosovo conflict would elevate it in popular consciousness. The conflict is little known in American culture, but a highly dramatic story and one naturally suited as an environment for fiction.

It is not well suited for those unwilling to see moral nuance and complicated narratives.
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Old 5th March 2019, 02:37 AM   #111
Graham2001
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Seems that will be the only safe option.

It's a shame. Even a poorly written book about the Kosovo conflict would elevate it in popular consciousness. The conflict is little known in American culture, but a highly dramatic story and one naturally suited as an environment for fiction.

It is not well suited for those unwilling to see moral nuance and complicated narratives.

I agree, I recently found my copy of a RPG setting book that was printed as part of the revision of Twilight 2000 that took place in the early 1990s. The book covers Eastern Europe (And which is copyrighted 1994) and the chapter covering what the book terms the 'Yugoslavian Splinters' contains these words.


Quote:
Disclaimer: The political situation among the former Yugoslavian countries is so fluid that any current information gathered will probably be out of date by the time issued.

Craig Sheeley, East Europe Sourcebook, 1994, pg 48


As for the SJWs, what they are trying to do is to quote the British Obscene Publications Act, protect readers from works that "...tend to deprave and corrupt persons who are likely, having regard to all relevant circumstances, to read, see or hear the matter contained or embodied in it..." irrespective of the context or intent of the work or author.
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Old 26th March 2019, 02:15 AM   #112
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And now for a more literal case of book burning. A Call of Cthulhu scenario book set in Shanghai in the 1920s has been destroyed at the orders of the Chinese Government.



Quote:
We have suffered an unfortunate and unexpected setback with the off-set print run. On March 20th, the Chinese government ordered the destruction of our books.

http://sonsofthesingularity.com/setb...ed-by-the-ccp/
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Old 26th March 2019, 04:21 AM   #113
Eddie Dane
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I can't get past the $500k thing. Either the publishers think it's pretty hot stuff, or there's an industry ready to be fleeced by whatever I can cobble together this weekend. I'll make it crazy racist if that's what sells.
Cobble together? Surely you mean hiring a ghostwriter in the Philippines?
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Old 26th March 2019, 04:48 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I mean, Jesus, was the book pro- slavery?
For some strange reason depicting "bad things" neutrally and without rendering any kind of explicit moral condemnation often leads people to assume that one is supportive of these "bad things". Worse yet if the person or persons who are responsible for these "bad things" somehow avoids dying, otherwise being punished or suffering some other kind of misfortune.

Good things are supposed to happen to good people and bad things ought to happen to bad people... right? Drug abuse, crime, slavery, torture, rape and other forms of sexual abusive or exploitative behavior... We can't have people behind such things be depicted in a complex and non-judgmental manner, they need to be shown as cardboard cutouts of the demons they are in the real world dammit!
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Last edited by Arcade22; 26th March 2019 at 04:49 AM.
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Old 26th March 2019, 08:47 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
For some strange reason depicting "bad things" neutrally and without rendering any kind of explicit moral condemnation often leads people to assume that one is supportive of these "bad things". Worse yet if the person or persons who are responsible for these "bad things" somehow avoids dying, otherwise being punished or suffering some other kind of misfortune.

Good things are supposed to happen to good people and bad things ought to happen to bad people... right? Drug abuse, crime, slavery, torture, rape and other forms of sexual abusive or exploitative behavior... We can't have people behind such things be depicted in a complex and non-judgmental manner, they need to be shown as cardboard cutouts of the demons they are in the real world dammit!
Ugh, the Hays Code.
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Old 27th March 2019, 02:43 AM   #116
Eddie Dane
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
For some strange reason depicting "bad things" neutrally and without rendering any kind of explicit moral condemnation often leads people to assume that one is supportive of these "bad things". Worse yet if the person or persons who are responsible for these "bad things" somehow avoids dying, otherwise being punished or suffering some other kind of misfortune.

Good things are supposed to happen to good people and bad things ought to happen to bad people... right? Drug abuse, crime, slavery, torture, rape and other forms of sexual abusive or exploitative behavior... We can't have people behind such things be depicted in a complex and non-judgmental manner, they need to be shown as cardboard cutouts of the demons they are in the real world dammit!
Let me get this straight. In order to be politically correct, literature can no longer be more complex than a novel aimed at kids under twelve?
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Old 1st May 2019, 05:56 PM   #117
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...and Blood Heir looks to be published after all, but with some revision:

A YA Novel Scrapped Because of Sensitivity Concerns Is Getting Published Anyway

Quote:
Reeling from the criticism after pulling the book from publication, she took time to reread her manuscript several times and decided her critics were wrong. In March, she contacted her editor at Delacorte Press to tell her she wanted to proceed after all. Zhao and the publisher solicited new feedback from experts including a human-trafficking scholar, “academics from different multicultural backgrounds,” and multiple “sensitivity readers” who scan manuscripts for stereotypes. She made additions and revisions in response. “We ultimately think our YA readers are very smart,” her editor told the Times. “They can read what they want to read and use their critical thinking skills to work through it.” The tweaked version of Blood Heir will be published in November.
There is some curiosity as to how much revision, and how the original critics will respond to it.
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Old 13th May 2019, 07:54 AM   #118
Graham2001
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Here we go again...


Quote:
WASHINGTON (AP) — A writer on the verge of releasing her debut novel is facing a backlash after she posted a picture on Twitter of a public transit worker eating on a train and reported details about the woman to her bosses.


Natasha Tynes apologized a day later on Twitter and deleted her post before making her account private, but the publishing house distributing her novel dropped her and her publisher delayed the planned release of the book.


The response to Friday’s post was almost immediate, with people upset that Tynes, who is Jordanian American and has called herself a “minority writer,” would shame a black woman and possibly cause her to lose her job.

https://www.snopes.com/ap/2019/05/12...ting-on-train/



Courtesy of Associated Press & Snopes.com.
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Old 13th May 2019, 08:05 AM   #119
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Interesting. It seems stupid. But from the publisher's statements I get the impression that the target audience for the book would have been exactly that demographic that would have demonized the author's behavior anyway. So possibly nothing of value was lost.
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Old 13th May 2019, 08:14 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
It's unfortunate that anyone should care what these snot-nosed little ***** think. I guess everyone should stop writing novels, because someone is sure to get offended.
Used to write semi professionally and it's one of the reasons I felt I had to give it up once I got a professional job. While I've never wrote anything provocative, all it takes now is a couple loud people who want attention and you are now a racist, or a homophobe.

Sadly those kind of accusations would be career enders in social work.
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