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Old 21st February 2019, 11:45 AM   #41
Checkmite
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I think it's an age thing. The young white nationalist is a pizzagater.
On this I must emphatically disagree. Pizzagate specifically is just the most recent reiteration of a very old conspiracy theory about US government officials running child kidnapping and prostitution rings. The conspiracy theory exploded into popularity among anti-government groups in the late 80's contemporary with the "satanic daycare panic"; but (like satanism fears) the theory probably has its origins further back than that. I don't think belief in these conspiracy theories was tied closely with white nationalism back then; but that situation has decidedly changed now, because Pizzagate isn't just another iteration of the story - it's a decidedly pro-Trump one, and white nationalists of all ages have embraced Donald Trump. This man who was charged with making pizzagate-related threats was 52; and while I suppose it's possible he himself was not a racist, I don't see much of a reason to expect this conspiracy theory to have attracted older non-racists but only younger white nationalist/neo-nazi types.
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Old 21st February 2019, 12:13 PM   #42
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But Parcher, why do that in a thread about a dangerous madman? Because he got caught before killing anyone. Thank goodness!
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Old 21st February 2019, 12:17 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I also fail to see a pro-Russian motive here..
You don't see a plot to kill top liberal politicians as pro-Russian?

Have you though about the fact that those on his hit-list are the very same politicians who, in 2020, are likely to threaten the continued placement of their asset in the White House?
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Old 21st February 2019, 01:49 PM   #44
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Not to mention that Putin wants chaos and distrust in the US.
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Old 21st February 2019, 03:11 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Not to mention that Putin wants chaos and distrust in the US.
Which many think is his real,basic motive. He was smart enough to know that congress. even a GOP one, would block a lot of the favors that Trump could do for him. He thought electing Trump would create chaos and division in the US, and that was his main motive. Any favors he could get from Trump were just a nice bonus.
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Old 21st February 2019, 03:47 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And how would you deal with it? In the US we have this little thing that you cannot arrest people because of their opinions. They actually have to do something or be caught seriously planning to do something.
RICO.
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Old 21st February 2019, 09:44 PM   #47
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The guy was a 49 year old O-3 with 20 years in service. So either he got promoted very slowly or he started off as enlisted. Harder to keep any secrets when enlisted. I suspect there were people in his past that knew what he was about.
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Old 21st February 2019, 10:21 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
He definitely sounds like a bad person but appears to be the lone-wolf type. Glad they got him before he killed somebody.
Ah, yes. Of course he is a "lone wolf". There is no way he could have bought in to the rhetoric currently spewing from the right.

He obviously exists in a vacuum. Nothing to see here.
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Old 21st February 2019, 10:26 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And how would you deal with it? In the US we have this little thing that you cannot arrest people because of their opinions. They actually have to do something or be caught seriously planning to do something.
This guy had an actual kill-list. And "serious plans". That's not enough for you?
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Old 22nd February 2019, 12:34 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
The guy was a 49 year old O-3 with 20 years in service. So either he got promoted very slowly or he started off as enlisted. Harder to keep any secrets when enlisted. I suspect there were people in his past that knew what he was about.
Highly likely. I think this was mentioned in another thread recently - maybe it wasn't - but there is a significant white nationalist presence within US military ranks, and a greater number of servicemembers indicated a belief that white nationalism is a threat to American security than the number similarly concerned about the Iraq/Syria or Afghanistan conflicts.
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Old 22nd February 2019, 02:17 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And how would you deal with it? In the US we have this little thing that you cannot arrest people because of their opinions. They actually have to do something or be caught seriously planning to do something.
Same way as you deal with Islamist terrorism. Extensive counter-terror intelligence operations, educate law enforcement, encourage communitites to be watchful.
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Old 22nd February 2019, 02:47 AM   #52
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Actually, you can get wiretaps on people for visiting pro-foreign terrorist websites and watch foreign terrorism videos.
Just not domestic terror groups.
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Old 22nd February 2019, 06:46 AM   #53
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I wish to commend the POTUS!

Obviously his first instinct would be to condemn a person who threatened to kill the leadership of the opposing party, along with a list of prominent journalists. And it should go without saying, the POTUS would be quick to condemn a white supremacist who would concoct such a plot.

It is only President Trump's abiding respect for due process and the justice system that causes him to remain silent.

"Enemy of the people" is a harmless figure of speech after all. Geez, some of you get your undies bunched at the drop of a hat.
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Old 22nd February 2019, 08:54 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Highly likely. I think this was mentioned in another thread recently - maybe it wasn't - but there is a significant white nationalist presence within US military ranks, and a greater number of servicemembers indicated a belief that white nationalism is a threat to American security than the number similarly concerned about the Iraq/Syria or Afghanistan conflicts.
Maybe I've led a sheltered life, but the only time during my life when I met real, live skinhead white supremacists was during my 4 years in the Marines.

Been around plenty of people who make racist jokes and whatnot, but real, actual racist a-holes, who literally hate people of other races, only in the military.

That said, I think it's a bit like prison, where people retreat to racially homogenous peer groups as a protection mechanism borne from insecurity.

Never witnessed any actual violence though. Everyone worked well together for the most part, just split off after hours and talked crap about the others.
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Old 23rd February 2019, 12:19 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I wish to commend the POTUS!

Obviously his first instinct would be to condemn a person who threatened to kill the leadership of the opposing party, along with a list of prominent journalists. And it should go without saying, the POTUS would be quick to condemn a white supremacist who would concoct such a plot.

It is only President Trump's abiding respect for due process and the justice system that causes him to remain silent.

"Enemy of the people" is a harmless figure of speech after all. Geez, some of you get your undies bunched at the drop of a hat.
Yes, he thinks it is a shame that something like this has happened, and “It’s a very sad thing when a thing like that happens, I’ve expressed that.”.

But his earlier statement about the press was a harmless figure of speech, in fact and asked if it may have been partially to blame for actions such as this;
No, I don’t," he said. "I think my language is very nice.”.
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Old 23rd February 2019, 01:28 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
I await the inevitable conspiracy theory that he was framed.
You mean like the tripe Jussie Smollet and his PR team are trying sell?

Edited by kmortis:  Removed to comply with Rule 11 & Rule 12


As for this one, glad the idiot was caught before he hurt someone.
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Old 25th February 2019, 05:35 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
You don't see a plot to kill top liberal politicians as pro-Russian?

Have you though about the fact that those on his hit-list are the very same politicians who, in 2020, are likely to threaten the continued placement of their asset in the White House?
I doubt his motivations were to benefit Russia. Russia may certainly benefit from this form of right-wing extremism and may work to inflame such extremism, but that doesn't mean that the right wing extremists act for the purpose of benefiting Russia.

Right wing militia movements, like those that influenced McVeigh to bomb the federal building in OKC, long predate the current infatuation between the right and Russia. The idea that government, especially left-wing governments, are a danger to this country and need to be eliminated via violence is very much a domestic idea.

There's plenty of history of this kind of extremist thought in this country that one need not look overseas for agitators. Seems that he was pretty explicit in his love letter/manifesto what his motivations were.
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Old 25th February 2019, 05:40 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Same way as you deal with Islamist terrorism. Extensive counter-terror intelligence operations, educate law enforcement, encourage communitites to be watchful.
My understanding is that these domestic groups became second priority after the 9/11 attacks and more emphasis was placed on combating foreign, islamic groups. Likewise for much of the federal resources dedicated to combating white collar crimes.

The absence of such law enforcement activity is certainly regrettable.
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Old 25th February 2019, 06:07 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
My understanding is that these domestic groups became second priority after the 9/11 attacks and more emphasis was placed on combating foreign, islamic groups. Likewise for much of the federal resources dedicated to combating white collar crimes.

The absence of such law enforcement activity is certainly regrettable.
It's a quirk of US law that only foreign-linked terrorism is treated as terrorism, whereas purely domestic terrorism is usually only treated as "crime".
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Old 25th February 2019, 08:23 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Glad they got him before he killed somebody.
yes. But with that many firearms, I wonder if he had a few helpers in mind that he needed to equip?
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I'm just glad they caught him before he carried out whatever he was going to do.
Yeah.
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
True, but for it to happen to a Looey in the Coast Guard is a bit unusual.
Yep. CG folks are some pretty solid people in my experience.
Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
I suspect there were people in his past that knew what he was about.
Possibly true. It will be interesting to see what the investigation turns up. Let's thank whomever was alert and on their toes for smoking this out.
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Old 26th February 2019, 06:12 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
He definitely sounds like a bad person but appears to be the lone-wolf type. Glad they got him before he killed somebody.
Maybe so, but there seem to be an awful lot of these far right lone wolves running around. So many that they are starting to rival the pack
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Old 26th February 2019, 06:18 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Maybe so, but there seem to be an awful lot of these far right lone wolves running around. So many that they are starting to rival the pack
Dissociated cells and lone wolves have pretty much been standard operating procedure for extremist movements for decades. Large, organized groups are easy to infiltrate, investigate, and prosecute. Much better to just weave a loose web of small, mostly leaderless groups and individuals.

It's pretty standard now for agitators to stick to spreading propaganda online and just wait until the more unstable, nothing to lose consumers to act out on it.

If this guy hadn't written his love-letter/manifesto, odds are good that his terrorist inclinations would have remained undetected.
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Old 26th February 2019, 06:48 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Dissociated cells and lone wolves have pretty much been standard operating procedure for extremist movements for decades. Large, organized groups are easy to infiltrate, investigate, and prosecute. Much better to just weave a loose web of small, mostly leaderless groups and individuals.

It's pretty standard now for agitators to stick to spreading propaganda online and just wait until the more unstable, nothing to lose consumers to act out on it.

If this guy hadn't written his love-letter/manifesto, odds are good that his terrorist inclinations would have remained undetected.
In the internet age, the loose knit lone wolves can organize at lightning speed, and undetected if they are slick about it. Antifa has been sticking their toes in that water for the last few years.

There was an earlier thread about antifa agitation here, and I took a shot reaching out to a couple anarchist types I knew from my younger days. It was a little shocking how well organized they have become, considering how I don't see a peep about them online or in the news, except for a couple weak facebook pages and the like. I wonder how much law enforcement really knows about how many of these types there are and how broad their networking is once you leave twitter.
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Old 26th February 2019, 12:13 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Dissociated cells and lone wolves have pretty much been standard operating procedure for extremist movements for decades. Large, organized groups are easy to infiltrate, investigate, and prosecute. Much better to just weave a loose web of small, mostly leaderless groups and individuals.

It's pretty standard now for agitators to stick to spreading propaganda online and just wait until the more unstable, nothing to lose consumers to act out on it.

If this guy hadn't written his love-letter/manifesto, odds are good that his terrorist inclinations would have remained undetected.
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
In the internet age, the loose knit lone wolves can organize at lightning speed, and undetected if they are slick about it. Antifa has been sticking their toes in that water for the last few years.

There was an earlier thread about antifa agitation here, and I took a shot reaching out to a couple anarchist types I knew from my younger days. It was a little shocking how well organized they have become, considering how I don't see a peep about them online or in the news, except for a couple weak facebook pages and the like. I wonder how much law enforcement really knows about how many of these types there are and how broad their networking is once you leave twitter.
Don't let the opposition know your 'power level' till it's too late, as the right wing terrorist supporters say.

Once the Trump/GOP start to lose power or get real court problems, you'll see quite a lot of these 'lone wolves' in semi-coordinated action, while the anti-left wings blame Dems and antifa for 'starting violence'.
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Old 26th February 2019, 05:09 PM   #65
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One of the tactics that ISIS has used is to "inspire" lone wolf types to commit attacks in their name. There's little direct communication with them, beyond them consuming propaganda that is put out in public, and they're certainly not operating under direct instructions, but when they do a terrorist action, ISIS can say "yep, that was us".
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Old 27th February 2019, 12:33 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
have you seen his arsenal?
A modest collection, by my standards anyway. Three semi-auto center fire rifles (2 AR-15's, 1 AR-10?), one semi-auto rimfire rifle, one bolt action rifle with scope, one tube fed rimfire rifle, two pump (or semi-auto) shotguns with extra barrels, one long-gun of unknown type, four semi-auto pistols and two revolvers. Looks like there might be two or three silencers, various magazines and other shooting gear.

Nothing unusual for Maryland as far as I know.

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Old 27th February 2019, 12:37 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
It is only President Trump's abiding respect for due process and the justice system that causes him to remain silent.
President "take the guns first, due process second" Trump?
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Old 27th February 2019, 12:49 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
In the internet age, the loose knit lone wolves can organize at lightning speed, and undetected if they are slick about it. Antifa has been sticking their toes in that water for the last few years.

There was an earlier thread about antifa agitation here, and I took a shot reaching out to a couple anarchist types I knew from my younger days. It was a little shocking how well organized they have become, considering how I don't see a peep about them online or in the news, except for a couple weak facebook pages and the like. I wonder how much law enforcement really knows about how many of these types there are and how broad their networking is once you leave twitter.
When was the last time you saw an Antifa kill-list?
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Old 27th February 2019, 05:47 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
A modest collection, by my standards anyway. Three semi-auto center fire rifles (2 AR-15's, 1 AR-10?), one semi-auto rimfire rifle, one bolt action rifle with scope, one tube fed rimfire rifle, two pump (or semi-auto) shotguns with extra barrels, one long-gun of unknown type, four semi-auto pistols and two revolvers. Looks like there might be two or three silencers, various magazines and other shooting gear.

Nothing unusual for Maryland as far as I know.

Ranb
Exactly this was not some want to be terrorist but a normal second amendment enthusiast.
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Old 27th February 2019, 06:00 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
A modest collection, by my standards anyway. Three semi-auto center fire rifles (2 AR-15's, 1 AR-10?), one semi-auto rimfire rifle, one bolt action rifle with scope, one tube fed rimfire rifle, two pump (or semi-auto) shotguns with extra barrels, one long-gun of unknown type, four semi-auto pistols and two revolvers. Looks like there might be two or three silencers, various magazines and other shooting gear.

Nothing unusual for Maryland as far as I know.

Ranb
I'm only 4 firearms away from a killer's arsenal!

That is not a large collection for a middle aged man with a long interest in shooting. Guns last forever, so it is not unusual for someone interested in firearms for multiple decades to have quite a few guns. People I know that shoot competitively have multiple versions of the same gun for different competition categories.

Articles, including this one, often also make a big deal out of someone having "over a thousand rounds of ammo".

I'm new to competitive three position shooting and don't practice nearly as much as those that are very good at it. I easily shoot 200-300 rounds of 5.56 a month for practice. Double or triple that in rimfire. Ammo, like most things, is cheapest bought in bulk. I currently have about 1,500 rounds of 5.56 in my closet and nearly 5,000 rounds of .22 rimfire. 1,000 round bricks of centerfire and 5,000 round bricks of rimfire are the default bulk packaging and usually where free shipping kicks in.

These things that indicate a future spree killer are indistinguishable from the inventory of a low-level hobby shooter.
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Old 27th February 2019, 09:02 AM   #71
Hellbound
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm only 4 firearms away from a killer's arsenal!

That is not a large collection for a middle aged man with a long interest in shooting. Guns last forever, so it is not unusual for someone interested in firearms for multiple decades to have quite a few guns. People I know that shoot competitively have multiple versions of the same gun for different competition categories.

Articles, including this one, often also make a big deal out of someone having "over a thousand rounds of ammo".

I'm new to competitive three position shooting and don't practice nearly as much as those that are very good at it. I easily shoot 200-300 rounds of 5.56 a month for practice. Double or triple that in rimfire. Ammo, like most things, is cheapest bought in bulk. I currently have about 1,500 rounds of 5.56 in my closet and nearly 5,000 rounds of .22 rimfire. 1,000 round bricks of centerfire and 5,000 round bricks of rimfire are the default bulk packaging and usually where free shipping kicks in.

These things that indicate a future spree killer are indistinguishable from the inventory of a low-level hobby shooter.
This.

I'm just getting back into shooting again, and so far only own one pistol. But my standard "range day" once per month is 15 mags; 195 rounds. I typically will buy a couple thousand rounds each year when my tax return comes in to cover my ranges during the year.

I plan to pick up 4 other guns soon (next couple years): a pump shotgun, a bolt-action-rifle, a revolver, and a 1911-style .45. I'll probably look at a semi-auto rifle after that, and likely a second larger-caliber bolt action, and probably a good .22 LR.

At any given point, even with the single gun I own, you're likely to find over a thousands rounds in the house. Once I get the others, it's doubtful there'd ever be less than a thousand. Even with just the "base collection" of 5 guns I plan soon, 1000 rounds is less than 200 per weapon (or, a single range day for each).
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Old 27th February 2019, 09:05 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
When was the last time you saw an Antifa kill-list?
Wut?
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Old 27th February 2019, 09:09 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm only 4 firearms away from a killer's arsenal!

That is not a large collection for a middle aged man with a long interest in shooting. Guns last forever, so it is not unusual for someone interested in firearms for multiple decades to have quite a few guns. People I know that shoot competitively have multiple versions of the same gun for different competition categories.

Articles, including this one, often also make a big deal out of someone having "over a thousand rounds of ammo".

I'm new to competitive three position shooting and don't practice nearly as much as those that are very good at it. I easily shoot 200-300 rounds of 5.56 a month for practice. Double or triple that in rimfire. Ammo, like most things, is cheapest bought in bulk. I currently have about 1,500 rounds of 5.56 in my closet and nearly 5,000 rounds of .22 rimfire. 1,000 round bricks of centerfire and 5,000 round bricks of rimfire are the default bulk packaging and usually where free shipping kicks in.

These things that indicate a future spree killer are indistinguishable from the inventory of a low-level hobby shooter.
Yeah, non-shooters don't get that when you actually shoot at ranges, you need a lot of rounds and so buy in bulk. Far more concerning to me would be if he had fewer rounds. It suggests those bullets kind of have names on them.

Another thing a non-shooter wouldn't get is the variety of firearms. They think it is fetishizing or something. Ask a hobby woodworker how many tools he has, or even a fashionable woman how many shoes she has, and you get a '...'
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Old 27th February 2019, 09:34 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yeah, non-shooters don't get that when you actually shoot at ranges, you need a lot of rounds and so buy in bulk. Far more concerning to me would be if he had fewer rounds. It suggests those bullets kind of have names on them.

Another thing a non-shooter wouldn't get is the variety of firearms. They think it is fetishizing or something. Ask a hobby woodworker how many tools he has, or even a fashionable woman how many shoes she has, and you get a '...'
And of course the length of the average gun owners political kill list.
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Old 27th February 2019, 09:40 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And of course the length of the average gun owners political kill list.
Absolutely. Because that's a real thing among hobby shooters.
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Old 27th February 2019, 05:00 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yeah, non-shooters don't get that when you actually shoot at ranges, you need a lot of rounds and so buy in bulk. Far more concerning to me would be if he had fewer rounds. It suggests those bullets kind of have names on them.

Another thing a non-shooter wouldn't get is the variety of firearms. They think it is fetishizing or something. Ask a hobby woodworker how many tools he has, or even a fashionable woman how many shoes she has, and you get a '...'
It's like guitars. Guitarists seem to always have a large number of different guitars. Gun collectors, presumably, do the same for similar reasons.

And even I, famously ignorant about gun stuff, didn't think a thousand rounds sounded like a lot. That's like, 20 boxes?
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Old 28th February 2019, 07:59 AM   #77
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https://www.newsweek.com/coast-guard...n-drug-1346740

Well looks like he will be out soon. All he was indicted on was a few minor paper work errors on some silencers, and being a drug addict with out turning in his guns. All in all just your normal gun owner who developed a little drug problem, we can blame the pharma industry for that of course.

Kill lists of course being an important part of the second amendment's role in violent political discourse as the founders intended.
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Old 28th February 2019, 08:16 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Once the Trump/GOP start to lose power or get real court problems, you'll see quite a lot of these 'lone wolves' in semi-coordinated action, while the anti-left wings blame Dems and antifa for 'starting violence'.

No, I can't imagine them ever stooping so low. (I've been wondering what happened to Outrageous Fortune after the midterms ...)
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Old 28th February 2019, 06:53 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
https://www.newsweek.com/coast-guard...n-drug-1346740

Well looks like he will be out soon. All he was indicted on was a few minor paper work errors on some silencers, and being a drug addict with out turning in his guns. All in all just your normal gun owner who developed a little drug problem, we can blame the pharma industry for that of course.

Kill lists of course being an important part of the second amendment's role in violent political discourse as the founders intended.
There is nothing in the article that in any way supports your commentary. WTF.
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Old 28th February 2019, 08:10 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
https://www.newsweek.com/coast-guard...n-drug-1346740

Well looks like he will be out soon. All he was indicted on was a few minor paper work errors on some silencers, and being a drug addict with out turning in his guns. All in all just your normal gun owner who developed a little drug problem, we can blame the pharma industry for that of course.

Kill lists of course being an important part of the second amendment's role in violent political discourse as the founders intended.
Well, it's hard to convict people of crimes they haven't committed yet. As of now, those may be the only things they can prove.
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