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Tags robert kraft , sex scandals , sports incidents

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Old 27th February 2019, 12:52 AM   #201
Puppycow
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
So Reason is a Russkie troll site? Who knew?
I assume that you're making a joke, but I have to admit that I don't quite follow the joke. Is it because there's bad blood between Putin and Robert Kraft due to that Super Bowl ring thing?
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Old 27th February 2019, 01:00 AM   #202
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The story's a bit of a nothingburger. Let's wait for the dust to settle?
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Old 27th February 2019, 08:58 AM   #203
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Another article questioning why there are no trafficking charges.

What Was Really Going On At Orchids Of Asia?

Originally Posted by Deadspin
...Kraft’s massage parlor escapades were splayed across websites next to headlines trumpeting that the massage parlor he visited had been busted as part of a sex trafficking ring. But among sex-worker advocates another narrative was proffered: The sting wasn’t in fact about human trafficking at all, it was targeting consensual sex workers.

The debate centers on the argument that rates of human trafficking are wildly exaggerated, and that anti-sex-trafficking stings are in fact moralistic anti-sex-work stings. Such operations often end with police finding few or no victims and arresting consensual sex workers instead. Although sex trafficking does exist, it is not nearly as common or as large a problem as law enforcement and the media make it out to be. So which version of the events in Florida is the true story? It’s pretty tough to tell.

I started with two questions whose answers were surprisingly hard to find: How many people have been charged with human trafficking in the recent Florida stings that caught Kraft? And how many victims of human trafficking do police claim to have found?...

https://deadspin.com/what-was-really...sia-1832896112
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Old 27th February 2019, 09:11 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Carlitos, yes, trafficking for sure.
I said this because I saw reported charges for trafficking. Now we learn that there really aren't any charges for that. Maybe the charges were dropped or maybe they never existed in the first place.

Early on I said that this weird operation doesn't make any sense. Particularly because you are supposed to immediately rescue abused victims of sex trafficking, rather than to use them as john bait for months.

So, now I have no confidence that anyone was trafficked here.
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Old 27th February 2019, 12:02 PM   #205
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This article says that one is charged with trafficking. She got that charge because she drove some women who had suitcases.

How Vero Beach police landed the only human trafficking charge in recent Florida busts

Originally Posted by TC Palm
Only one person has been charged with human trafficking in connection with prostitution in Florida massage parlors, despite multiple agencies linking the 10 spas shut down this month to Chinese sex trafficking.

Her name is Lanyun Ma, and she's a 49-year-old Orlando woman who ran East Spa in downtown Vero Beach.

"It's very difficult to charge somebody with that," acknowledged Detective Sgt. Phil Huddy, who supervises the detective division at the Vero Beach Police Department.

Ma was seen transporting numerous women with suitcases to and from the spa who are believed to be victims of human trafficking, according to her arrest warrant.

Some stayed for a couple days, others for weeks.

It's hard to know how many total victims there were at East Spa, police said. One was placed in a shelter and is cooperating with investigators; several are incarcerated and a handful were never identified...

https://www.tcpalm.com/story/news/cr...on/2983335002/
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Old 27th February 2019, 12:12 PM   #206
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A page ago you were making hay because "nobody had been charged with trafficking" in this case. Now somebody has, but you're belittling the significance of such a charge. Nobody being charged is significant but somebody being charged isn't really that important?

The detective in the article you quote explains it very simply:

Quote:
"It's very difficult to charge somebody with that," acknowledged Detective Sgt. Phil Huddy, who supervises the detective division at the Vero Beach Police Department.
It's a hard charge to prove, so the state goes for easier-to-prove charges in most cases instead. This happens all the time across the country.
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Old 27th February 2019, 12:16 PM   #207
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It's not certain that this woman has been charged for trafficking. We have conflicting articles.

Articles say that an examination of affidavits and warrants show no such charge for anyone.
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Old 27th February 2019, 12:34 PM   #208
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Do you think Robert Kraft committed a crime?
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Old 27th February 2019, 12:42 PM   #209
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I would take anything on Reason with a ton of salt.
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Old 27th February 2019, 12:44 PM   #210
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Elagabalus....Yes, soliciting and then receiving acts of prostitution, on two consecutive days.
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Old 27th February 2019, 01:40 PM   #211
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The District Attorney is saying that there are no trafficking charges...

Originally Posted by Reason
At a press conference (partially aired on CNN) today, Palm Beach District Attorney Dave Aronberg spent most of his time talking about the theoretical horrors that could occur in situations like this. "Modern day slavery," as Aronberg called it, "can happen anywhere, including in the peaceful community of Jupiter."

However, no human trafficking charges were filed among the hundreds of (current and coming) prostitution charges, he admitted, adding that first-time offenders (like Robert Kraft) are "very unlikely to get any significant" time behind bars.
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Old 27th February 2019, 01:51 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
In (a very tiny) amount of defense he could just be one of the rich people who has literally no idea how the world works and honestly thought getting dropped off in a 225,000 dollar car by a chauffeur at a strip mall wouldn't be seen as weird.

How often does a man like that suffer the consequenses of his bad or unwise actions? After half a lifetime or more of that, I suspect that risk assesment becomes a little wonky.
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Old 27th February 2019, 01:53 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
How often does a man like that suffer the consequenses of his bad or unwise actions? After half a lifetime or more of that, I suspect that risk assesment becomes a little wonky.
And, as pointed out, most Kraft can be charged with legally is a misdemeanor.
The real punishment is that he has taken a huge blow to his image and his pride. And, yeah, to somebody like Kraft that is going to hurt.
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Old 27th February 2019, 03:46 PM   #214
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Elizabeth Nolan Brown of Reason who is skeptical of trafficking in Florida sting - recorded on a radio program. You can listen to her make the case that this is not trafficking.

https://omny.fm/shows/kirk-callahan/...of-trafficking
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Old 27th February 2019, 04:37 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
This article says that one is charged with trafficking. She got that charge because she drove some women who had suitcases.

How Vero Beach police landed the only human trafficking charge in recent Florida busts




https://www.tcpalm.com/story/news/cr...on/2983335002/
I noticed that law enforcement sources cited in the article you linked claimed "repressed memories" as one reason that the "victims" didn't report that they were trafficked.

Yeah, right.
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Old 28th February 2019, 02:31 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Another article questioning why there are no trafficking charges.

What Was Really Going On At Orchids Of Asia?




https://deadspin.com/what-was-really...sia-1832896112
This is turning out to be much different than the police portrayed it in their press conferences and radio interviews.
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Old 28th February 2019, 02:58 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
A page ago you were making hay because "nobody had been charged with trafficking" in this case. Now somebody has, but you're belittling the significance of such a charge. Nobody being charged is significant but somebody being charged isn't really that important?

The detective in the article you quote explains it very simply:



It's a hard charge to prove, so the state goes for easier-to-prove charges in most cases instead. This happens all the time across the country.
OK, but if that's all true after all and it really was a sex trafficking ring and the prostitutes were slaves who were there against their will, then I would like to return to an earlier point I made, which is this:

If we take the sheriff at his word and accept everything he said in this interview as the gospel truth, then it means that he was so hell-bent on catching as many "johns" as possible that he allowed these women to remain captive for month after month after month, being raped 8 or more times per day, without intervening. What kind of monster would stand by and allow something like that to happen to another human being?
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Old 28th February 2019, 06:12 AM   #218
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At Orchids of Asia, the refrigerator and freezer was full of food (with photos).

https://theblast.com/robert-kraft-se...lth-inspection
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Old 28th February 2019, 07:56 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
OK, but if that's all true after all and it really was a sex trafficking ring and the prostitutes were slaves who were there against their will, then I would like to return to an earlier point I made, which is this:

If we take the sheriff at his word and accept everything he said in this interview as the gospel truth, then it means that he was so hell-bent on catching as many "johns" as possible that he allowed these women to remain captive for month after month after month, being raped 8 or more times per day, without intervening. What kind of monster would stand by and allow something like that to happen to another human being?

After reading all of the above, my preliminary conclusion is that:

- this was trafficking, or at least some kind of fraud / coercion on these women, and
- this sheriff is an anti-prostitution zealot, who put his personal objectives over the welfare of these women by leaving them in this situation so that he could bust some rich and powerful men.
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Old 28th February 2019, 10:20 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
He might even be able to stand for election if he did that. I wonder the same thing.


Because where is the “dirtiness” in that? I’m convinced that the danger, seediness, etc is an essential part of the attraction for guys like this. Doesn’t Kraft have a much younger girlfriend? Checking this: Yes, he does and she’s pretty! We can wonder why he would even need the services of a “massage parlor.” And the answer is because he likes it raunchy.


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Old 28th February 2019, 11:58 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
After reading all of the above, my preliminary conclusion is that:

- this was trafficking, or at least some kind of fraud / coercion on these women, and
- this sheriff is an anti-prostitution zealot, who put his personal objectives over the welfare of these women by leaving them in this situation so that he could bust some rich and powerful men.
Par for the course. For the last ten years or so, human trafficking is the justification used by law enforcement for enforcing prostitution laws, but it is much more common for the supposed victims to be criminally charged than for them to be rescued, or for any of the people supposedly responsible to be charged with anything other than prostitution related charges. A variety of excuses are offered for this, some plausible (victims are afraid to testify because of threats or violence, or because they don't want families back home to know what they were doing), to absurd (repressed memories).

It's very difficult to know to what degree human trafficking is actually occurring, but I am almost certain that the prevalence of it is highly exaggerated. It seems the unholy alliance of law enforcement, religious fanatics and radical feminists have jumped on it as their justification for enforcing prostitution laws, but aren't really much interested in helping whatever victims there might actually be.
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Old 28th February 2019, 12:41 PM   #222
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Bringing women to come work in America as prostitutes while they sleep on massage tables and live in the massage parlor -which they never leave- is very wrong. I don’t care if it’s called “human trafficking,” or not. And the issue of whether or not these women chose to do it is moot. Can you really say they had a choice? If their choice was: stay here in your home country OR go to America and live in a massage parlor and have sex with men for almost no pay...well, in my mind that tells me that their home country conditions were so frickin’ deplorable that they saw screwing 8 men a day or more while living in a place you can never leave (whether by force or inability to function in the new country) as an improvement! That is just so sad that those women have my full sympathy.

To compare this to American women who live in their own country in their own homes and make a choice to make a decent living by selling sex rather than work for peanuts as a server or whatever is ridiculous.


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Old 28th February 2019, 01:07 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
OK, but if that's all true after all and it really was a sex trafficking ring and the prostitutes were slaves who were there against their will
No - stopping there, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of human trafficking I think.

Human trafficking can be about shanghai-ing or abducting and literally enslaving people wholly against their will; but it doesn't have to be. Indeed my impression is that's not how it usually goes. Whether the trafficking is for the purpose of sex or some other kind of labor, the point is more indentured servitude than pure slavery - which is just as illegal in the United States, and is morally wrong regardless of the nature of the labor.

The people trafficked by these groups want to come to the United States and live a free life, but often cannot afford to do it legally or are led to believe they cannot afford to do it legally. The traffickers offer a way: an exorbitant price - sometimes requiring a down-payment (especially in Mexico and Latin America), sometimes not - and we'll let you "pay off" the balance by working for us once you get there. And once in America, as the case with this massage parlor, they are kept sequestered and compelled to perform whatever labor the traffickers choose until the traffickers decide the debt is "paid". Since the indentured immigrant doesn't actually receive a wage, they have no way of keeping track of their own progress in paying the debt, meaning the length of time they remain indentured is completely arbitrary. But they believe they are slowly and definitely paying off a fixed debt, which they agreed to do, so therefore of course none of these indentured immigrants will agree they're being held "against their will" - certainly not to law enforcement, which they have been warned against cooperating with by the traffickers if they want to stay in the US (or alive, in some cases) - even as they acknowledge they're not permitted to leave, because they expect that they will one day be released and free to pursue their actual dream-life here.
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Old 28th February 2019, 01:10 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Do you think Robert Kraft committed a crime?
From a legal point of view, yes. Solciting a Prostituie is a misdemeanor.
Now if it should be a crime or not is a different story....
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Old 28th February 2019, 01:31 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
From a legal point of view, yes. Solciting a Prostituie is a misdemeanor.
Now if it should be a crime or not is a different story....
And probably should be a different thread although this one is getting there. We now have a conspiracy* of the police, religious fanatics and rad fems creating stories of Human trafficking like it's the Momo challenge or something.




It might even be a (((global))) conspiracy.
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Old 28th February 2019, 01:54 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
From a legal point of view, yes. Solciting a Prostituie is a misdemeanor.

Now if it should be a crime or not is a different story....


Soliciting a prostitute should be: I make a deal with a person to have sex with me and I will give them money. I don’t think that should be a crime at all.

But the Kraft situation is different. He did not contract individually with a person. He paid a front organization to provide him with a person to have sex with him.

And to be clear, the mere existence of a front organization isn’t the problem. The legal brothels are a front organization, after all, and I have no problem with the idea of a legal brothel as long as the ladies are contracting with the organization of their own free will.

No. The problem here is that the organization utilized indentured servants to perform the services. So, in my mind, what Kraft did is beyond mere solicitation of a prostitute. He made a deal with a criminal “human trafficking” organization to provide him with an indentured servant who effectively had no choice in the matter. That should be a felony because Kraft is not a stupid man.


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Old 28th February 2019, 08:30 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
No - stopping there, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of human trafficking I think.

Human trafficking can be about shanghai-ing or abducting and literally enslaving people wholly against their will; but it doesn't have to be. Indeed my impression is that's not how it usually goes. Whether the trafficking is for the purpose of sex or some other kind of labor, the point is more indentured servitude than pure slavery - which is just as illegal in the United States, and is morally wrong regardless of the nature of the labor.

The people trafficked by these groups want to come to the United States and live a free life, but often cannot afford to do it legally or are led to believe they cannot afford to do it legally. The traffickers offer a way: an exorbitant price - sometimes requiring a down-payment (especially in Mexico and Latin America), sometimes not - and we'll let you "pay off" the balance by working for us once you get there. And once in America, as the case with this massage parlor, they are kept sequestered and compelled to perform whatever labor the traffickers choose until the traffickers decide the debt is "paid". Since the indentured immigrant doesn't actually receive a wage, they have no way of keeping track of their own progress in paying the debt, meaning the length of time they remain indentured is completely arbitrary. But they believe they are slowly and definitely paying off a fixed debt, which they agreed to do, so therefore of course none of these indentured immigrants will agree they're being held "against their will" - certainly not to law enforcement, which they have been warned against cooperating with by the traffickers if they want to stay in the US (or alive, in some cases) - even as they acknowledge they're not permitted to leave, because they expect that they will one day be released and free to pursue their actual dream-life here.
Yeah, I was positing an extreme version of human trafficking for rhetorical effect. But based on the sheriff's own portrayal of the situation. The truth will lie somewhere in between the extremes. I think your last paragraph is a bit speculative though.
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Old 28th February 2019, 09:18 PM   #228
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Daily Mail says that the ages of the two prostitutes that Kraft hired were 48 and 58.
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Old 28th February 2019, 10:57 PM   #229
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Young enough to be his daughters!!!
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Old 4th March 2019, 05:57 PM   #230
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Washington Post reports today that officials have not yet filed any trafficking charges.
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Old 4th March 2019, 07:48 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Washington Post reports today that officials have not yet filed any trafficking charges.
Got a link to that one?

Anyway, I went looking for more recent news. Here's the latest from Reason:

Sneak-and-Peek Warrant for Hidden Cameras at Florida Massage Parlors Faces Scrutiny

Quote:
Permission for such surveillance stems from a provision of the PATRIOT Act that was passed with promises only to use the power against possible terrorists. "But the tactic has spilled over to infiltrating other crimes, most recently the alleged sex acts at the Jupiter business," notes Lisa J. Hurriash at the South Florida Sun Sentinel. "In such cases, so-called sneak-and-peek warrants let authorities access private property so the government can secretly do a search without notifying people under investigation."
Quote:
Police were able to secretly install the surveillance cameras thanks to a sneak-and-peek warrant. Such warrants were sold after 9/11 as a way to stop terrorism, but in practice they've mainly been used in investigations of drug crimes.

Of the more than 11,000 such warrants issued in 2013, for instance, only 50 were related to terrorism; 9,401 were parts of drug investigations. In 2011, 5,093 of 6,775 requests for sneak-and-peek warrants were related to drug cases; just 31 were related to terrorism. "Exactly what privacy advocates argued in 2001 is happening: sneak and peak warrants are not just being used in exceptional circumstances—which was their original intent—but as an everyday investigative tool," the Electronic Frontier Foundation warned five years ago.
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Old 4th March 2019, 08:02 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Got a link to that one?

Surveillance cameras, suitcases and billionaires: How an investigation into massage parlors unfolded in Florida

Originally Posted by The Washington Post
The story law enforcement officials detailed was deeply Floridian, filled with vice and iniquity, entwining celebrity and extreme wealth with allegations of prostitution and human trafficking.

But more than a week after authorities announced that a sprawling web of investigations into massage parlors across this region had found women performing sex acts for money, officials have not yet filed any trafficking charges.

Instead, following a maelstrom of media attention — almost entirely because of the inclusion of solicitation charges against Robert Kraft, owner of the Super Bowl champion New England Patriots — the investigation has led mostly to prostitution charges, mirroring similar stings across the country. And while current and former law enforcement officials and advocates for victims say they suspect human trafficking was part of what occurred in the Florida parlors, they also acknowledge it probably will be difficult to prove...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...d15_story.html
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Old 4th March 2019, 08:47 PM   #233
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That's interesting and it clarifies that in fact, no charge of human trafficking has yet been filed. People should read the whole article because there's a lot of information throughout, including the latter half. (I realize that there's a monthly limit to how many Washington Post articles you can read. I sometimes use another browser than my normal one, if you have more than one browser on your computer.)

Quote:
Vero Beach police have so far been the only agency to announce a potential trafficking charge. A posting on the department’s website said Lanyun Ma — recently arrested and accused in court papers of “running the day-to-day operations of” East Spa, another massage parlor in the probe — was charged with human trafficking. (She also has been identified in court records as Lan Yun Ma.)

But Ma’s arrest affidavit and court records make no mention of trafficking charges. She was instead charged with racketeering and three prostitution-related crimes. Brad Kmetz, a spokesman for the Vero Beach police, acknowledged that there has been no trafficking charge thus far and referred questions to Colton, the state attorney.
Pause for clarification: Wikipedia article about "racketeering".

I guess a short way to describe racketeering is any kind of organized crime, such as running a prostitution ring, in this case. That's just one of many forms it could take. But human trafficking is not the same thing as racketeering.

Regarding the Vero Beach case, it says:
Quote:
Of the six women his department arrested while raiding East Spa, just one identified herself as a victim of trafficking. Currey declined to identify the woman, saying only that she is “in a safe place, and she’ll probably be reunited with her family.” Currey said the other women were given the option of being treated as victims but chose instead to be charged with prostitution.

Martin County Sheriff William D. Snyder said his office has three women who worked at the massage parlors in custody. Other women who worked there were gone before police arrived “and identifying them is really complex,” he said. Snyder said the three women in custody are under arrest, noting that authorities have evidence of them committing crimes, but added that police hope all three will agree to cooperate and identify as victims.
So is that crystal clear that police are putting pressure on these women to tell the story they want them to tell? It's a situation where if you don't "identify as" a victim, you will be prosecuted. One of the six women did "identify as" a victim of trafficking, but you must consider that if she hadn't, she would have been incarcerated and prosecuted. By cooperating, she got to go to a "safe place" instead of wherever the other women are being held.
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Old 4th March 2019, 08:57 PM   #234
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This may give some estimate of pay for these women...

Originally Posted by Miami Herald
At the Jee Jee Spa, in the 700 block of Fifth Street, one woman said the arrangement worked like this: She worked 12-hours shifts and was not given an hourly wage. Instead she received a cut of each massage: $70 for the house, $30 for her.

She was charged $30 a day for food and lodging, according to an arrest report.

A second woman told the same story...

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/loc...226942349.html
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Old 4th March 2019, 10:54 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
This may give some estimate of pay for these women...









https://www.miamiherald.com/news/loc...226942349.html


That means, assuming they get at least one day off, at 8 jobs a day...they get $240 a day...$1440 a week. Of course, we don’t know what they are being charged for room and board along with whatever debts they might have to those who brought them over but on the face of it, it ain’t bad.


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Old 4th March 2019, 11:56 PM   #236
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Quote:
At the Jee Jee Spa, in the 700 block of Fifth Street, one woman said the arrangement worked like this: She worked 12-hours shifts and was not given an hourly wage. Instead she received a cut of each massage: $70 for the house, $30 for her.

She was charged $30 a day for food and lodging, according to an arrest report.

A second woman told the same story
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
That means, assuming they get at least one day off, at 8 jobs a day...they get $240 a day...$1440 a week. Of course, we don’t know what they are being charged for room and board along with whatever debts they might have to those who brought them over but on the face of it, it ain’t bad.


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So 70/30 is how they split the price of the massage, the base "legal" part of the service, but then there's the "happy ending" which is a seperate matter and maybe a tip too. That part of the transaction seems to be left out. Is that also split 70/30 or what? Does the girl keep 100% of tips or 100% of any "extra" services provided?
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Old 5th March 2019, 01:22 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
That sounds great. It's not anything illegal and seems to have nothing to do with trafficking.



But where was this nail girl going to live and cook her food and can she afford rent and daily needs? How is she going to live in America when we cannot use Mandarin and she cannot use English?



Was the nail salon gig also to be a human trafficking thing where she ends up never leaving the nail salon?
Wat? Person A offers person B a job in the promised land. Person A tells person B whatever they want to hear. Person B accepts and travels to the promised land.
Person A and/or associates turn up and take person B to strip mall massage palour. Person B has been scammed and feels trapped enough that they cannot get themselves out.
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Old 5th March 2019, 09:35 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
That means, assuming they get at least one day off, at 8 jobs a day...they get $240 a day...$1440 a week. Of course, we don’t know what they are being charged for room and board along with whatever debts they might have to those who brought them over but on the face of it, it ain’t bad.
It's in my quote...

Originally Posted by Miami Herald
She was charged $30 a day for food and lodging, according to an arrest report.
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Old 5th March 2019, 09:50 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
So 70/30 is how they split the price of the massage, the base "legal" part of the service, but then there's the "happy ending" which is a seperate matter and maybe a tip too. That part of the transaction seems to be left out. Is that also split 70/30 or what? Does the girl keep 100% of tips or 100% of any "extra" services provided?
Yes, the way those places usually work is that there is a "house fee" paid up front, and additional is paid to the masseuse for "extras". I have no idea whether the "tip" for the "extras" is split with the house or not.
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Old 5th March 2019, 09:51 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
Wat? Person A offers person B a job in the promised land. Person A tells person B whatever they want to hear. Person B accepts and travels to the promised land.
Person A and/or associates turn up and take person B to strip mall massage palour. Person B has been scammed and feels trapped enough that they cannot get themselves out.
We don't know about the situation with these women. They may have known right from the start that they were going to America to turn tricks in a massage parlor. Some or all may have been told something else. Some or all may be lying to the police or saying nothing.

Some or all may have been prostitutes in China before coming to America. Maybe the money is much better here even if you are paying out to your madam. Maybe they had to pay madams in China as well. Maybe everything was just far worse for them in China. Good and safe food and hygiene and living conditions might be much better in that strip mall compared to where they came from. Maybe they are wiring money home to their relatives - maybe much much more than they could earn in China.

Maybe a family back in rural China is thinking, "She is our loving goldmine and now she has stopped sending the gold. What has happened?"
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