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Tags airplane incidents , government shutdown

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Old 12th March 2019, 09:21 PM   #1
Bob001
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737 Max Crashes (was Shutdown caused Boeing crash.)

Boeing was planning to make software revisions for the 737 Max in January that might have prevented the Ethiopian Airways crash that killed 157 people. But regulatory approval was delayed by the 35-day U.S. government shutdown.

Quote:
According to the WSJ, US officials have also blamed part of the delay on this year’s government shutdown — saying it halted work for at least five weeks.
https://nypost.com/2019/03/12/boeing...es-for-months/

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Old 12th March 2019, 09:57 PM   #2
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Premature since they haven't officially determined the cause of the accident yet, but:
Quote:
The updates — which involve multiple sensors, or data feeds, being rolled out into the MAX’s stall-prevention system in place of its current single-sensor setup — were ordered up in the wake of the deadly Lion Air crash in Indonesia last October and were originally planned for early January.
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Old 12th March 2019, 10:31 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Premature since they haven't officially determined the cause of the accident yet, but:
Nonetheless, there are a very limited number of things that can cause an airliner to autonomously pitch nose-down during climb-out.
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Old 12th March 2019, 10:42 PM   #4
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OK, say the OP is true, shouldn't Boeing have grounded the planes until the issue was addressed?

Not that I'm unwilling to blame Trump for contributing to the problem.
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Old 12th March 2019, 10:46 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Nonetheless, there are a very limited number of things that can cause an airliner to autonomously pitch nose-down during climb-out.
Have they determined that happenned in the recent crash?

I'm not doubting, I just hadn't seen that.

Ethiopian plane smoked and shuddered before deadly plunge (Reuters)

Quote:
GARA-BOKKA, Ethiopia (Reuters) - The Ethiopian Airlines plane that crashed killing 157 people was making a strange rattling noise and trailed smoke and debris as it swerved above a field of panicked cows before hitting earth, according to witnesses.
Quote:
Half a dozen witnesses interviewed by Reuters in the farmland where the plane came down reported smoke billowing out behind, while four of them also described a loud sound.

“It was a loud rattling sound. Like straining and shaking metal,” said Turn Buzuna, a 26-year-old housewife and farmer who lives about 300 meters (328 yards) from the crash site.

“Everyone says they have never heard that kind of sound from a plane and they are under a flight path,” she added.

Malka Galato, 47, a barley and wheat farmer whose field the plane crashed in, also described smoke and sparks from the back. “The plane was very close to the ground and it made a turn... Cows that were grazing in the fields ran in panic,” he said.

Tamirat Abera, 25, was walking past the field at the time. He said the plane turned sharply, trailing white smoke and items like clothes and papers, then crashed about 300 meters away.

“It tried to climb but it failed and went down nose first,” he said. “There was fire and white smoke which then turned black.”
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Old 12th March 2019, 11:05 PM   #6
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Blaming Trump for what looks like, but is yet to be proven Boeing's gross lack of safety by not self grounding the planes.....

Left field, but predictable.
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Old 12th March 2019, 11:08 PM   #7
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Thanks Trump.
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Old 12th March 2019, 11:20 PM   #8
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I reckon in about 5 years there will be a new "Law", slightly similar to Godwin's involving Trump.

Cullennz's Law - All threads on bad things will inevitably blame Trump for the bad thing, not matter how fragile the reasoning.

................................ Five years timed for when he gets turfed from the presidency


(Put that last sentence in there just to wind people up)
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Old 12th March 2019, 11:24 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Have they determined that happenned in the recent crash?

I'm not doubting, I just hadn't seen that.

Ethiopian plane smoked and shuddered before deadly plunge (Reuters)
I am reminded of all the witnesses who absolutely swore every way up that they saw a missile strike TWA800.

Eye witnesses to airline crashes, especially those who have no aviation experience, are often not reliable.
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Old 12th March 2019, 11:29 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I am reminded of all the witnesses who absolutely swore every way up that they saw a missile strike TWA800.

Eye witnesses to airline crashes, especially those who have no aviation experience, are often not reliable.
Agreed. But it suggests at least the possibility of another explanation.

They have both black boxes and if there was a bomb on board I assume that the forensic examiners will find evidence of it. We just have to wait for them to piece together the evidence.
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Old 13th March 2019, 10:11 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Agreed. But it suggests at least the possibility of another explanation.



They have both black boxes and if there was a bomb on board I assume that the forensic examiners will find evidence of it. We just have to wait for them to piece together the evidence.
The airframe, especially the vertical stabilizer, experiences a great deal of stress in stall/dive conditions. It's possible they were successfully getting control of the aircraft, but sustained structural damage in doing so that proved fatal.

With the body sitting so low, does this model have any issues with tail strikes that may weaken the rear bulkhead?
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Old 13th March 2019, 10:15 AM   #12
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Yeah, I don't really see this as being Trump's fault. It's Boeing's responsibility to put out safe products. It sucks that the FAA didn't realize the full extent of the problem, but I put the any blame solely on Boeing.
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Old 13th March 2019, 10:17 AM   #13
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If only the government had been shut down sooner, Boeing wouldn't even have gotten permission to fly the planes in the first place!
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Old 13th March 2019, 10:19 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yeah, I don't really see this as being Trump's fault. It's Boeing's responsibility to put out safe products. It sucks that the FAA didn't realize the full extent of the problem, but I put the any blame solely on Boeing.
yeah, but for pure insurance reasons, it makes a difference.
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Old 13th March 2019, 10:22 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
yeah, but for pure insurance reasons, it makes a difference.
Does it?

Does getting the FAA stamp of approval eliminate liability for faulty products?
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Old 13th March 2019, 10:23 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Boeing was planning to make software revisions for the 737 Max in January that might have prevented the Ethiopian Airways crash that killed 157 people. But regulatory approval was delayed by the 35-day U.S. government shutdown.


https://nypost.com/2019/03/12/boeing...es-for-months/

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Yeah, it's Trumps fault. It cannot possibly be operator error.
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Old 13th March 2019, 10:29 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Does it?

Does getting the FAA stamp of approval eliminate liability for faulty products?
Flying without FAA approval makes litigation easy. If the FAA doesn't object, it makes it much harder to go against the armies of Boeing lawyers.
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Old 13th March 2019, 10:39 AM   #18
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Real problem is the 737 Max is just a crappy plane.

There is old engineering saying "If something looks wrong, it probably is". The 737 Max just plain looks wrong.
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Old 13th March 2019, 10:40 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Yeah, it's Trumps fault. It cannot possibly be operator error.
Well, if Boeing was planning essential software revisions that were delayed by the shutdown, that certainly raises some questions, doesn't it? Under what circumstances should the autopilot prevent the pilot from taking control of the plane?
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Old 13th March 2019, 11:41 AM   #20
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Boeing 737 MAX: The Latest Example of a Passive DOT

Thirty-five Congressional mandates sit unanswered, on everything from minimum seat space to secondary barriers protecting cockpits. The top job at the Federal Aviation Administration has been open for 14 months. Enforcement fines against major U.S. airlines have dropped 88% in the past two years, even as three-hour tarmac delays have more than doubled.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-...ot-11552409944
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Old 13th March 2019, 11:48 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Real problem is the 737 Max is just a crappy plane.

There is old engineering saying "If something looks wrong, it probably is". The 737 Max just plain looks wrong.
The Boeing X-32 looked wrong to me. I'm not seeing what looks wrong with the 737 Max 8. Anything in particular you had in mind?
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Old 13th March 2019, 12:03 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I reckon in about 5 years there will be a new "Law", slightly similar to Godwin's involving Trump.

Cullennz's Law - All threads on bad things will inevitably blame Trump for the bad thing, not matter how fragile the reasoning.

................................ Five years timed for when he gets turfed from the presidency


(Put that last sentence in there just to wind people up)
Why not, they need a replacement for Obama/Clintons.
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Old 13th March 2019, 12:05 PM   #23
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Grounded in the US now also based on Canadian satellite data because there's more evidence the crash is similar to the other crash.
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Old 13th March 2019, 12:06 PM   #24
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Trump (or Boeing themselves reports are wording it both ways) have decided to ground the 737 Max 8 in the US.
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Old 13th March 2019, 12:17 PM   #25
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As I am booked on one of these planes in early April (Air Canada) I'm happy they grounded them for now. Only 340 or so of them in service and 2 have crashed? Eek.
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Old 13th March 2019, 12:18 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Trump (or Boeing themselves reports are wording it both ways) have decided to ground the 737 Max 8 in the US.
Can Boeing ground planes? They don't own the planes, the airlines do. Boeing can probably recommend it, and I doubt anyone would refuse their recommendation, but I would have thought only the FAA or the airlines can do the actual grounding.
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Old 13th March 2019, 12:20 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Can Boeing ground planes? They don't own the planes, the airlines do. Boeing can probably recommend it, and I doubt anyone would refuse their recommendation, but I would have thought only the FAA or the airlines can do the actual grounding.
I'm hearing it worded as "Boeing officially recommended to the FAA to ground the planes."

Well the FAA is the one technically doing it, as you say I can't imagine a scenario in which a manufacturer saying "You need to ground our planes" would ever be ignored so if the reports are correct their statement certainly mattered.
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Old 13th March 2019, 12:28 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The Boeing X-32 looked wrong to me. I'm not seeing what looks wrong with the 737 Max 8. Anything in particular you had in mind?
The engines just look too big for the wing span.
That seems to be the problem:Boeing tried to marry large engines to an airframe that cannot handle them.
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Old 13th March 2019, 12:30 PM   #29
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I'm trying to find a firm source to link to but apparently every country that flies the 737 MAX Model 8 has grounded the planes at this point.
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Old 13th March 2019, 12:36 PM   #30
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For some reference and context the previous "generation/version/whatever" of the 737, the 737 Next Generation (which consisted of 4 variations and sort of a military version) has as of this writing been involved in 15 hull losses with a total of 590 fatalities but that's over a period of almost 60 years
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Old 13th March 2019, 01:39 PM   #31
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You can update a older plane to take new tech....the C130J is proof of that..the Herky BIrds will probably be flying after 2050...but they sure as hell failed with the 737 Max.
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Old 13th March 2019, 02:05 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The engines just look too big for the wing span.
That seems to be the problem:Boeing tried to marry large engines to an airframe that cannot handle them.
I see what you mean by the size of the engines. The amount of engine in front of the wing looks longer than the wings are wide.
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Old 13th March 2019, 02:11 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Boeing was planning to make software revisions for the 737 Max in January that might have prevented the Ethiopian Airways crash that killed 157 people. But regulatory approval was delayed by the 35-day U.S. government shutdown.


https://nypost.com/2019/03/12/boeing...es-for-months/

Thanks, Donald!

Wow, the quality threads are piling up here.
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Old 13th March 2019, 02:23 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Wow, the quality threads are piling up here.
I think blaming Trump for the crash is a bit much..and I hate Trump with a passiln...but then some people think Dear Leader should be above all criticism.....
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Old 13th March 2019, 02:24 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Wow, the quality threads are piling up here.
The Fox right-wing claims the government doesn't do anything. Here's a specific example of bodies piling up because the government wasn't allowed to do what it was supposed to.

Last edited by Bob001; 13th March 2019 at 02:26 PM.
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Old 13th March 2019, 02:26 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think blaming Trump for the crash is a bit much..and I hate Trump with a passiln...but then some people think Dear Leader should be above all criticism.....
I didn't mean it literally, as in Trump said "Let's crash a plane." But he clearly has failed and does fail to grasp his fundamental responsibilities as the head of the government, and the consequences have been severe and long-lasting.

Last edited by Bob001; 13th March 2019 at 02:27 PM.
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Old 13th March 2019, 02:31 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I didn't mean it literally, as in Trump said "Let's crash a plane." But he clearly has failed and does fail to grasp his fundamental responsibilities as the head of the government, and the consequences have been severe and long-lasting.
That makes no sense at all. If the planes weren't fit to fly without the software update, then they should have been grounded long before this crash. If they were fit to fly, then this crash cannot be attributed to the delay in approving the software update.

In either case, compare:

"Boeing cannot in good conscience recommend flying these planes without this software update. Therefore, we recommend grounding the fleet until the software gets approved. Unfortunately, due to the government shutdown, this could take a while. #bettersafethansorry"

With:

"Boeing cannot in good conscience recommend flying these planes without this software update. Unfortunately, due to the government shutdown, this could take a while. Therefore, do what you gotta do. #fingerscrossed #makingomelettes #sorrynotsorry"
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Old 13th March 2019, 02:54 PM   #38
a_unique_person
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yeah, I don't really see this as being Trump's fault. It's Boeing's responsibility to put out safe products. It sucks that the FAA didn't realize the full extent of the problem, but I put the any blame solely on Boeing.
It's the Swiss cheese model. When all the holes get aligned at the same time you get a crash.

Boeing sticks engines on plane that are to big.
Creates MCAS to compensate for larger engine putting plane out of balance during power on climb in manual mode.
MCAS function not explained well.
Single AoA sensor fails.
Pilots don't react to unexpected situation in optimal way.
Plane crashes.
Boeing revises MCAS
During testing US Government shuts down impeding change
Second plane crash.
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Old 13th March 2019, 03:15 PM   #39
Bob001
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That makes no sense at all. If the planes weren't fit to fly without the software update, then they should have been grounded long before this crash. If they were fit to fly, then this crash cannot be attributed to the delay in approving the software update.

.....

But Boeing's position was never "the planes aren't fit to fly." It was that the software was an improvement or enhancement. Nevertheless, if the software had been "improved" or "enhanced" earlier, the crash might -- maybe -- not have happened.
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Old 13th March 2019, 03:53 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Well, if Boeing was planning essential software revisions that were delayed by the shutdown, that certainly raises some questions, doesn't it? Under what circumstances should the autopilot prevent the pilot from taking control of the plane?

It may be more complicated than that.

The 737 MAX's Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS), implicated for reacting to faulty angle-of-attack readings in the Lion Air accident,[132] came under renewed scrutiny due to the apparent similarity of the Ethiopian Airlines crash.[11][133] On March 12, Boeing announced that it had been working on a flight control software upgrade for the 737 MAX fleet, partly in response to the Lion Air crash, that includes updates to the MCAS flight control law, pilot displays, operation manuals and crew training. The upgrade is to be deployed in "the coming weeks", and is expected to be made mandatory by April by an FAA airworthiness directive.[134] On March 13, 2019 it emerged that pilots on at least two 2018 flights in the US filed safety concerns after the nose of a 737 MAX tilted down suddenly when they engaged the autopilot.[135] However, MCAS only activates if the autopilot is turned off.[136] Boeing had advised pilots to dis-engage autopilot in nose-down incidents, though MCAS actually initiates nose-down in response to stall incidents.[137] [138]
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