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Tags Facebook incidents , Facebook issues , free speech issues , internet incidents

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Old 19th April 2019, 04:30 PM   #81
smartcooky
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Are you trying to suggest that there aren't legitimate free speech concerns here? It used to be that many people on the left recognized the need to protect freedom of speech even for racists.

One of the problems here is that these sort of actions are never limited to just the claimed targets. Facebook says they're banning white supremacists, but people who don't actually fit that label are going to be banned under the pretext that they do. Just like "punch Nazis" ends up as "punch people we call Nazis". Freedom of speech MUST extend to objectionable content, or it isn't free at all.
Another one who does not understand what "Freedom of Speech" actually means. Let me make it clear to you.

There is no freedom of speech right for people using another person's platform. You are there at the pleasure of the platform's owner, who gets to set the rules (called "Terms and Conditions) as to what you can and can't do and say on their platform.

If these hate groups want to spread their vile rhetoric on the internet, they can get their own platform; No-one is stopping them (although some web-hosts might balk)
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Old 19th April 2019, 04:44 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Permit me. xkcd explicitly allows hotlinking.
One of XKCD's better efforts!

Edited by novaphile:  Removed XKCD cartoon
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Old 19th April 2019, 04:52 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
OH . THAT . IS . BRILLIANT!!!
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Old 19th April 2019, 05:23 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Yeah, they should.

I would hope they are also banning ISIS and like-minded groups.
I was thinking that. But apparently some members here think that Breitbart should be required to carry ISIS hate speech.
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Old 19th April 2019, 11:22 PM   #85
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There seems to be a co-mingling of two separate principles here: freedom of speech and the rights of an individual/business.

As a business entity, Facebook absolutely has the right to arbitrarily ban any groups, individuals or postings that it chooses. However, once they embark on this slippery slope, their bans are likely to extend to much more innocuous groups or postings.

And Facebook is not beyond criticism of its policies.
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Old 20th April 2019, 12:06 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
There seems to be a co-mingling of two separate principles here: freedom of speech and the rights of an individual/business.

As a business entity, Facebook absolutely has the right to arbitrarily ban any groups, individuals or postings that it chooses. However, once they embark on this slippery slope, their bans are likely to extend to much more innocuous groups or postings.

And Facebook is not beyond criticism of its policies.
Criticize them all you want. When you reserve your criticism for when racists get booted off the platform, it informs the rest of us about your priorities.

Slippery slope my butt.
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Old 20th April 2019, 12:52 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Criticize them all you want. When you reserve your criticism for when racists get booted off the platform, it informs the rest of us about your priorities.
And when you create strawman arguments to justify barring anybody who's opinion is different to yours, it informs the rest of us about your priorities.
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Old 20th April 2019, 12:59 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
However, once they embark on this slippery slope, their bans are likely to extend to much more innocuous groups or postings.
A common fallacious line of reasoning.

ETA: I mean that generally as well as specifically. Generally, the slippery slope fallacy as a just-so proposition IS a fallacy; but also, the particular notion that Facebook's steadfast refusal before now to ban Nazis and white supremacists has likely been the only thing keeping them from banning "much more innocuous groups or postings" is highly speculative and easy to reject.
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Old 20th April 2019, 01:17 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Criticize them all you want. When you reserve your criticism for when racists get booted off the platform, it informs the rest of us about your priorities.

Slippery slope my butt.
Facebook has banned leftwing pages, too:

https://fair.org/home/that-facebook-...its-a-reality/
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Old 20th April 2019, 01:21 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm totally lost here. If an organization become more powerful and influential is become more vitally important that racist have access to it? That seems backwards to me.
The more powerful it becomes, the more important the application of free speech laws become.
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Old 20th April 2019, 01:34 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The more powerful it becomes, the more important the application of free speech laws become.
Why?

Why should the power of a private company affect any laws at all?
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Old 20th April 2019, 01:40 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Why?

Why should the power of a private company affect any laws at all?
New agencies and services have traditionally been regulated in various ways.

For example:
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2018/10/m...turing-consent
Quote:
There have to be, if we have any sense that the news still has any relation to the public interest. The original bargain of the Communications Act of 1934 was that in exchange for using the public airwaves, media companies have to divert some of their profits from the dumb stuff they sell towards news that actually serves the community. The regulations weren’t really strict, and there was never very stringent enforcement, but there were some standards, and the idea was that the media is not just a commercial enterprise.
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Old 20th April 2019, 01:42 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
A common fallacious line of reasoning.
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Facebook has banned leftwing pages, too:

https://fair.org/home/that-facebook-...its-a-reality/
"Unfortunately, Facebook immediately used this new precedent to switch its sights on the left, temporarily shutting down the Occupy London page and deleting the anti-fascist No Unite the Right account (Tech Crunch, 8/1/18). Furthermore, on August 9, the independent, reader-supported news website Venezuelanalysis had its page suspended without warning."
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Old 20th April 2019, 02:32 AM   #94
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Cant be Ture. If it were, our resident free speech absolutists would have complained about it, right?

Skickat från min SM-G960F via Tapatalk
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Old 20th April 2019, 02:59 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Cant be Ture. If it were, our resident free speech absolutists would have complained about it, right?

Skickat från min SM-G960F via Tapatalk

Just as annoying in Swedish as in English!
And you might consider turning off the Swedish spell checker, too!
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Old 20th April 2019, 03:45 AM   #96
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It's how it starts, they come for the extremists that want to kill their fellow citizens and then they come for... Nah doesn't make any sense.

However we do know what happens when we - for example - allow Nazism to flourish, millions of us die.

I'm quite happy if not only private companies but also my government stop Nazis from trying to kill their fellow citizens.

I have no compunction or hesitation in saying we should remove the right to free speech for those that wish to kill their fellow citizens.
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Old 20th April 2019, 03:53 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Just as annoying in Swedish as in English!

And you might consider turning off the Swedish spell checker, too!
Sorry, new phone.
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Old 20th April 2019, 03:54 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It's how it starts, they come for the extremists that want to kill their fellow citizens and then they come for... Nah doesn't make any sense.

However we do know what happens when we - for example - allow Nazism to flourish, millions of us die.

I'm quite happy if not only private companies but also my government stop Nazis from trying to kill their fellow citizens.

I have no compunction or hesitation in saying we should remove the right to free speech for those that wish to kill their fellow citizens.
This.
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Old 20th April 2019, 06:13 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It's how it starts, they come for the extremists that want to kill their fellow citizens and then they come for... Nah doesn't make any sense.

Originally Posted by dann
First they came for the genocidal white supremacists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a genocidal white supremacist.
Then they came for the misogynist rapists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a misogynist rapist.
Then they came for the gay-bashing homophobes, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a gay-bashing homophobe.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
But that also wasn't necessary.
They just came to tell me that I didn't have to hide anymore:
Once again, it was safe to venture outside.

For some reason, the people who will come for us if they ever gain the power to do so are the ones whose freedom of speech we have to be concerned about now!
To paraphrase Walter White: They are the ones who knock!
They did actually come for the communists, the socialists, the trade unionists, the jews (Wikipedia), the gypsies and the gays.

ETA: Free Speech: It Can Be Had Without Orwell! (MSZ/Ruthless Criticism)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 20th April 2019, 07:03 AM   #100
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I was under the impression that the actual policy bans groups with violent rhetoric or principles from the platform, regardless of political affiliation or whatever. So the Nazis would be gone, but so would, say, a left-wing group who talks about killing TERFs, or a group that advocates environmental terrorism, or those idiots who violently destroy people's beehives. Am I incorrect in that understanding?
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Old 20th April 2019, 07:21 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I was under the impression that the actual policy bans groups with violent rhetoric or principles from the platform, regardless of political affiliation or whatever. So the Nazis would be gone, but so would, say, a left-wing group who talks about killing TERFs, or a group that advocates environmental terrorism, or those idiots who violently destroy people's beehives. Am I incorrect in that understanding?
That's correct. There are two reasons that we only hear about the wingnut and Nazi groups:

1. They are the only groups "centrists" and "classical liberals" worry about losing their right to a soap-box for their bile.

2. They are the ones killing other people, thus prompting the clamp down.
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Old 20th April 2019, 07:29 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
That's correct. There are two reasons that we only hear about the wingnut and Nazi groups:

1. They are the only groups "centrists" and "classical liberals" worry about losing their right to a soap-box for their bile.

2. They are the ones killing other people, thus prompting the clamp down.
Hmmm, not really much of a slippery slope then, in my opinion. "Don't advocate violence" is a pretty clear line. They could still have their gross ideology, no one is hunting them down, they just have to cut out the violence BS. If they want to post on a certain website, that is.


I don't mean to mock or diminish anyone else's concerns in the thread, though. I may not be understanding the full picture. "Banning far-right groups" sounds pretty bad - definite slippery slope there (meaning that the platform could determine what counts as "far," and that could theoretically become problematic). But "banning groups that yammer on about (and sometimes stir up) violence, many of whom happen to be far-right" doesn't sound quite as perilous. What am I missing?

EDIT: I guess the line can blur quite a bit with violence/dehumanization in those discussions though. At what point does likening people to cockroaches who should be stomped out cross over to advocating violence? Maybe it's not that simple. "Technically we didn't advocate it, blah blah blah, we just wished for it, ban unfair! Whinge, whinge."

I wish the racists would just go away, ugh. Their position makes no sense.

Last edited by isissxn; 20th April 2019 at 07:43 AM. Reason: added some details and disclaimers
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Old 20th April 2019, 09:03 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I wish the racists would just go away, ugh. Their position makes no sense.
There is no honesty in this thread. Posters here speak of rabid Nazi violent racists but they really mean all forms of political incorrectness.
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Old 20th April 2019, 09:42 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
There is no honesty in this thread. Posters here speak of rabid Nazi violent racists but they really mean all forms of political incorrectness.
What ? you mean there's no massive nazi infestation on Facebook ? Ever since Trump got elected and the nazi warning flag was raised, I've been waiting for these guys to have stadium sized rallies.
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Old 20th April 2019, 10:10 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
There is no honesty in this thread. Posters here speak of rabid Nazi violent racists but they really mean all forms of political incorrectness.
Look out, we got a mind reader here.
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Old 20th April 2019, 10:15 AM   #106
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I thought that I'd be able to hide that what I really want, deep down inside, is capital punishment for anyone who tells a dirty joke, but I guess psionl0 can't be fooled!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 20th April 2019, 10:22 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
That’s a shame! Soldiers of Odin sounds like a cool name for a group.
They are a Norwegian vigilante group who patrol the streets looking for Muslims who misbehave.

Many of their members have ties to nazi and nationalist organizations, and many of them are convicted of violent crimes.
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Old 20th April 2019, 10:24 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'll describe you as someone who thinks it really, really important that racists have soapboxes. Because that's what you are arguing.
Defending free speech is ALWAYS about defending the rights of abhorrent people to express their abhorrent views. If nobody thinks their views are abhorrent, then nobody will want to restrict their rights to free speech.

For this reason, I believe this is not a valid rebuttal.
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Old 20th April 2019, 10:37 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
They are a Norwegian vigilante group who patrol the streets looking for Muslims who misbehave.

I bet the Muslims will behave much better if the vigilantes join forces with the otherWolves of Odin group!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 20th April 2019, 10:57 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
"Unfortunately, Facebook immediately used this new precedent to switch its sights on the left, temporarily shutting down the Occupy London page and deleting the anti-fascist No Unite the Right account (Tech Crunch, 8/1/18). Furthermore, on August 9, the independent, reader-supported news website Venezuelanalysis had its page suspended without warning."
You're using last year's banning of fake news sites to argue that this year's banning of nazis is the beginning of a slippery slope.
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Old 20th April 2019, 10:59 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
There is no honesty in this thread. Posters here speak of rabid Nazi violent racists but they really mean all forms of political incorrectness.
Well, that post really makes the thread less honest.
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"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
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Old 20th April 2019, 11:06 AM   #112
psionl0
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Look out, we got a mind reader here.
You don't need to read minds. The history in this forum shows that the guiding principle is that we all have the freedom to agree with the prevalent views here and we all have the freedom to attack those who defend the right to alternative views.
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Old 20th April 2019, 11:13 AM   #113
uke2se
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Would you prefer we didn't?
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
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Old 20th April 2019, 11:19 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Criticize them all you want. When you reserve your criticism for when racists get booted off the platform, it informs the rest of us about your priorities.

Slippery slope my butt.
As I said in the previous thread on this, companies like Facebook, Twitter, and Paypal have been banning people for being trans, for criticizing Nazi wannabes, for doing ASMR videos, and many other asinine reasons for years now, while racial supremacists (not just white nationalists like Richard Spencer, Louis Farrakhan's Twitter account has a video where he likens Jewish people to termites) are allowed to run wild. The only *possible "slippery slope" argument is the exact opposite direction from what people are fretting about: Today it's people who point out that the "alt-right" are really just a pack of genocidal white supremacists, tomorrow it'll be Holocaust deniers.
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Old 20th April 2019, 01:01 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Where do you get news from?

Many sources. Two sources I do not like are Fox and CNN, though I do check them out at times. I don't use Facebook and I don't use Google for anything other than Youtube. I like to verify national stories with local news when possible. I like to read more than one article on a subject, and I like to check out sources from other countries to get their perspective.

For example, I used to check out BBC sometimes because they often expanded on stuff that the US sites would leave out, and I found them well written as well, but I don't use them so much anymore.

I don't trust any news source to get any single story 100% correct. I can think of no news site that I trust to consistently deliver unbiased reporting either, so checking more than one is a requirement.

I used to enjoy coming here to get perspectives from other people around the country and world but not so much now.

I don't spend nearly as much time with the news or this forum as I used to. I find it does little to enhance my enjoyment of life and accomplishes little to nothing. The news has its place still. Maybe it's overload.

Silly side note:
I can't stand listening to NPR. Too much whispering and zero emotion or passion. I shouldn't say zero, but enough to drive me crazy. Sometimes they an-nun-ci-ate. so. much.

I'll never forget this NPR thing I heard. A few news jocks or whatever are sitting in the studio. Maybe a morning show?

A question was asked: "What was the first thing that made you think science was cool?" We got a few standard answers, stuff learned in school, whatever. Then one of them answers, "When I fist found out how much energy goes into raising livestock vs how much we get out of it"

"Ooooh good answer good answer!" The rest said.
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Old 20th April 2019, 09:08 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Hmmm, not really much of a slippery slope then, in my opinion. "Don't advocate violence" is a pretty clear line.
Yes, not advocating violence is usually a fairly clear line (although would people advocating for the US entrance into WW2 against Germany cross that line?). Except almost all the discussion here justifying the banning is based on the identity of the people who were banned, and not the specific content of whatever they posted. In fact, I don't think I've seen a single reference to any posted content which violated Facebook's policies. So I don't really believe that that's actually the line which is being drawn. It smells a whole lot like "offensive speech is violence".
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Old 20th April 2019, 09:45 PM   #117
psionl0
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Would you prefer we didn't?
You can criticize all you want but don't pretend that this is only about extreme right wing hate groups or that anybody who doesn't wholeheartedly support whatever you say is one of them.
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Old 20th April 2019, 09:58 PM   #118
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Anything that results in fewer people on Facebook is fine with me. Maybe someday everybody will switch it off.
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Old 20th April 2019, 11:20 PM   #119
uke2se
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You can criticize all you want but don't pretend that this is only about extreme right wing hate groups or that anybody who doesn't wholeheartedly support whatever you say is one of them.
But not pretending that would be lying on my part.

Also, you didn't answer my question.
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
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Old 21st April 2019, 04:38 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
What ? you mean there's no massive nazi infestation on Facebook ? Ever since Trump got elected and the nazi warning flag was raised, I've been waiting for these guys to have stadium sized rallies.
You have not been keeping up. They've held 53 of them in the 2½ years. 16 of them have been in stadiums.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._Trump_rallies
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