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Tags Facebook incidents , Facebook issues , free speech issues , internet incidents

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Old 22nd April 2019, 10:10 AM   #201
GnaGnaMan
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I think Zig is correct that both Nazism and Communism are inherently violent.
Yeah, definitely.

When was the last time someone in your country tried to kill someone in the name of 'The Revolution', though?
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Old 22nd April 2019, 10:13 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I would say someone who claims to be a Stalinist or supports Stalinism is of course someone who is for killing fellow citizens just like someone who claims to be a Nazi does, and I have no issue with them not being allowed to advocate the killing of their fellow citizens.

The few self-proclaimed Stalinists I've met weren't "for killing fellow citizens", but they were deluded about what constitutes Stalinism.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 10:20 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
The few self-proclaimed Stalinists I've met weren't "for killing fellow citizens", but they were deluded about what constitutes Stalinism.
As I've now said quite a few times, being stupid isn't usually a way to avoid being guilty of breaking the law.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 10:21 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
Yeah, definitely.

When was the last time someone in your country tried to kill someone in the name of 'The Revolution', though?
If Germany had won the war, after they completed their final solution, and all the dissenters had been rounded up things would have settled down to become relatively peaceful there too.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 10:22 AM   #205
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Using Nazism as an excuse to defend the broad concept of "Freedom Of Speech" (even ignoring how many times it's been explained that that concept doesn't apply here) is the same thing as when people want to piss on vaccines by going "Oh but they technically do have risks."

Yeah they do. Technically. But the risks are so small and the benefits so great if you're picking vaccines as your example, it is literally impossible to do without an ulterior motive. You're arguing risk/reward by using vaccines, you're against vaccines not for risk/reward.

Same thing with Nazis. Even if you just have to do some Bob-esque show of blind adherence to the pure ideological consistency of "Free Speech" as a concept above all else, homing in on Nazi as your example shows your hand.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 10:25 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
If Germany had won the war, after they completed their final solution, and all the dissenters had been rounded up things would have settled down to become relatively peaceful there too.
Why would you say such an absolutely crazy thing? I don't get it.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 10:29 AM   #207
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He's saying that after the fact "peace" can be achieved through horrible means, and we should be careful of using "Well it's all peaceful now" as an arguing point.

If the barbarian horde kills everyone capable of fighting back or dissenting, you've technically achieved peace.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 10:34 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
He's saying that after the fact "peace" can be achieved through horrible means, and we should be careful of using "Well it's all peaceful now" as an arguing point.

If the barbarian horde kills everyone capable of fighting back or dissenting, you've technically achieved peace.
Yes, thanks.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 10:40 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Does anyone think that Nazism is not inherently violent and it doesn't call for the killing of vast numbers of us (us meaning fellow citizens)?
The Nazism of the first half of the 20th century? I'd agree with you. The modern form I am not familiar with enough to know what they want. I'm not even sure what constitutes as being one. Not being in 100% agreement with someone is enough to be labelled a Nazi. I don't know that I would say those people are inherently violent or calling for the killing of citizens as a number of those people end up being moderate conservatives or even far left leaning progressives. I have never met someone who identifies as a Nazi and would imagine their true numbers, the ones who actually act on their inherently violence beliefs, to be quite small.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 10:42 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Bouncing Bettys View Post
The Nazism of the first half of the 20th century? I'd agree with you. The modern form I am not familiar with enough to know what they want. I'm not even sure what constitutes as being one. Not being in 100% agreement with someone is enough to be labelled a Nazi. I don't know that I would say those people are inherently violent or calling for the killing of citizens as a number of those people end up being moderate conservatives or even far left leaning progressives. I have never met someone who identifies as a Nazi and would imagine their true numbers, the ones who actually act on their inherently violence beliefs, to be quite small.
Oh come on. That's like telling everyone you identify as a rapist but putting on a bunch of self righteous bluster and pearl clutching when people assume you're gonna rape people.

Words mean thing.

Seriously the fact that we have now been reduced to "But what if you throw out the good Nazi babies with the Nazi bathwater" hand wringing is absurd.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 10:48 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Oh come on. That's like telling everyone you identify as a rapist but putting on a bunch of self righteous bluster and pearl clutching when people assume you're gonna rape people.

Words mean thing.

Seriously the fact that we have now been reduced to "But what if you throw out the good Nazi babies with the Nazi bathwater" hand wringing is absurd.
Words indeed mean thing, thus my point. We are so quick to label people we disagree with as Nazis when they really aren't at all. The very definition of the word can change under this practice. The meaning of words are always changing.

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Old 22nd April 2019, 10:52 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
??
Che Geuvara's ideology called for mass killings of fellow citizens. Did you not know this? Well, you do now. So apply your free speech standards to that, what do you get?
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Old 22nd April 2019, 10:53 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Bouncing Bettys View Post
Words indeed mean thing, thus my point. We are so quick to label people we disagree with as Nazis when they really aren't at all.
And the loop just starts again.

"But people use the word Nazi wrong!" is not a retort to "Nazis aren't good."

Can this conversation please get and stay out of that loop please?

We are not talking about people who other people call Nazis. We're talking about people who claim the title of Nazis themselves.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 10:54 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Seriously the fact that we have now been reduced to "But what if you throw out the good Nazi babies with the Nazi bathwater" hand wringing is absurd.
I agree, there are no "good Nazi babies" (in the metaphorical sense, literal babies don't have ideologies even if born to Nazi parents). But that applies to Communists too.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 10:57 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And the loop just starts again.

"But people use the word Nazi wrong!" is not a retort to "Nazis aren't good."
It is, however, a valid retort to "it's OK to do this stuff to Nazis".

Quote:
We are not talking about people who other people call Nazis.
Yes we are. Note that the thread title isn't even "Facebook bans Nazi groups". The categorization of other people as Nazis has been at the heart of this discussion from the start.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 11:11 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The categorization of other people as Nazis has been at the heart of this discussion from the start.
The soapboxes owner gets to make the decision. Your view that it magically becomes different when the soapbox gets too big not withstanding.

I'll can handwring over your idea that private entities stop having rights when they get too big a lot longer than you can hangwring over "OMG who gets to decide who's a Nazi."
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Old 22nd April 2019, 11:30 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I think your desire to call people racists has gotten the best of you.
Exactly people jump to calling the KKK racist when they certainly are not, they only are against the mixing of the races. Totally different and wrongheaded to call them racist.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 11:32 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
That’s a shame! Soldiers of Odin sounds like a cool name for a group.
As long as you hate the lesser races they might be the group for you!
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Old 22nd April 2019, 11:35 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
Declaring "we don't serve your kind here" is discriminatory and oppressive regardless of the source.
Yep you are obligated to give Nazi free airtime and an audience, otherwise it is discriminatory. Why look at how outrageous it would be to not be seated in a restaurant just because you are wearing a full SS uniform! It is a dress uniform so of course it counts for being properly attired.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 11:37 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The soapboxes owner gets to make the decision. Your view that it magically becomes different when the soapbox gets too big not withstanding.

I'll can handwring over your idea that private entities stop having rights when they get too big a lot longer than you can hangwring over "OMG who gets to decide who's a Nazi."
As a matter of law, large companies are very frequently deprived of rights that individual people maintain, including many rights of association.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 11:38 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Is funny how all that could apply 60 years ago about race. And if must people followed that logic then we would still have separate drinking fountains.

"You have the right to eat, just not in my restaurant, there is the door. "
Not at all you just have to understand protected classes and non protected classes. Race and religion are protected classes being a nazi isn't. I know it is outrageous that anyone would ever think about not renting out their space to the nazis, while if it AOK if they target the gays because that is their religion and even the jews have nothing in their religion against the nazis.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 11:41 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by AnonyMoose View Post
Again: The concept of free speech does not apply to a business entity.
Of course all these defenders of free speech are silent on the banning of female nipples on facebook but they get real upset when they come for the nazis.

So remember nazis may be bad but at least it isn't a breast.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 11:42 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The soapboxes owner gets to make the decision. Your view that it magically becomes different when the soapbox gets too big not withstanding.
There are many places where being of sufficient size does magically(legally) make a private entity different. Generally based on number of employees or market size.
Quote:
I'll can handwring over your idea that private entities stop having rights when they get too big a lot longer than you can hangwring over "OMG who gets to decide who's a Nazi."
I do think its worth a little hand wringing given how slippery political labels are. Fascism is a far right ideology that Facebook could easily justify banning from their site, on the other hand, its also basically just meant, "people I don't like" since the late 40s.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 11:43 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I was thinking that. But apparently some members here think that Breitbart should be required to carry ISIS hate speech.
And my amateur hardcore pornography.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 11:47 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Bouncing Bettys View Post
Words indeed mean thing, thus my point. We are so quick to label people we disagree with as Nazis when they really aren't at all.
That has been a problem. People have used the word "Nazi" as a convenient exaggerated pejorative for people they disagree with for so long, it has created this situation where we're now dealing with actual Nazi sympathizers finally but calling them such brings out defenders who contend it's just another mislabel.

There are some who even want to "technically" the word "Nazi" into a cage so small that it can only be applied to a member of the original mid-century German political party, and not anyone who merely shares the ideology to a greater or lesser extent. This is why I prefer to use a rotating terminology, using "racists", "white supremacists", "white nationalists", and "Nazis" throughout discussions, to make it clear that the set which is the union of all these ideologies is the set I'm talking about. It keeps the discussion from getting mired in semantics, as if asserting that "nazi (or whichever particular term) is the wrong word" invalidates the greater argument.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 11:47 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
the socialists, the trade unionists, the jews (Wikipedia), the gypsies and the gays.
But the gays had it coming, why else do you think we kept them in nazi concentration camps after the war?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persec...rmany#Post-War

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ga...-germany-wwii/
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Old 22nd April 2019, 11:49 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I do think its worth a little hand wringing given how slippery political labels are. Fascism is a far right ideology that Facebook could easily justify banning from their site, on the other hand, its also basically just meant, "people I don't like" since the late 40s.
And that's where we differ.

You see "Facebook banning people they don't like" as some horrible fate that we must do everything to avoid. As seen as a minor annoyance at worst since the soapbox owner is not under any, any obligation to provide use of their soapbox to anyone they want, even if they are applying inconsistent standards.

I'll take a private organization not letting people on their soapbox with a lot more ease then I'll take Nazis getting to use that soapbox.

I'm not so afraid of moral inconsistency as a high level sin that I'm comfortable with Nazis being handed megaphones to prevent it.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 11:50 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Defending free speech is ALWAYS about defending the rights of abhorrent people to express their abhorrent views. If nobody thinks their views are abhorrent, then nobody will want to restrict their rights to free speech.

For this reason, I believe this is not a valid rebuttal.
Exactly say what you will about nazis at least it isn't naked women. That is far far more vile than any nazi. I mean what are a few minor terrorist attacks like the Anders Brevin compared to seeing a breast!
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Old 22nd April 2019, 11:54 AM   #229
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The problem with saying "Defending free speech is ALWAYS about defending the rights of abhorrent people" is that that is functionally identical to just defending the horrible people.

If you always and only defend X when Y is involved, you aren't defending X, you're defending Y and not admitting it.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 11:54 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
So is that what passes for nazis nowadays ? My, how times have changed.

That must make the Democrats communists.
Not really

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswi...took-manhattan

At least america stood up to the Nazis and proudly said "no we will not take your jews, we hate the very idea of people seeking asylum here, solve you own jewish problem yourself" and they did. And as we see by modern policies around asylum seekers that was the right thing do to, I mean if we had granted Anne Frank asylum she never would be a world famous author after all.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 11:55 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Of course all these defenders of free speech are silent on the banning of female nipples on facebook but they get real upset when they come for the nazis.

So remember nazis may be bad but at least it isn't a breast.
That's a made up story

I for one sure wouldn't mind if Facebook went all page 3

#freethetiddies
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Old 22nd April 2019, 11:56 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
1. Nazis
2. White supremacists
3. Racists
4. Bigots
5. Antifa
Yep anyone protesting nazis is just as bad as being a nazi.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 11:58 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Whataboutism. False dichotomy. Leading statement.

Do you think this policy of Facebook only applies in America? Do you think it is within Facebook's power to address killings in 'Muslim ran' countries? Do you think that Facebook taking this action in absolutely any way even hinders other actions in other countries? Do you think America should be held to a lesser, equal, or greater standard than other countries by Americans?

My evaluation is that it is absolutely possible to care about both the rise and power of far right groups in the US and about religious governments (even specifically Muslim ones) at, get this, the same time.

Your reasoning looks to be all over the place. Try refining your objection to the subject at hand.
Of course given the role of facebook in inciting the Rohinga Genocide it still doesn't count of course as anything bad because who cares about genocide against muslims?
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Old 22nd April 2019, 12:01 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And that's where we differ.

You see "Facebook banning people they don't like" as some horrible fate that we must do everything to avoid. As seen as a minor annoyance at worst since the soapbox owner is not under any, any obligation to provide use of their soapbox to anyone they want, even if they are applying inconsistent standards.

I'll take a private organization not letting people on their soapbox with a lot more ease then I'll take Nazis getting to use that soapbox.

I'm not so afraid of moral inconsistency as a high level sin that I'm comfortable with Nazis being handed megaphones to prevent it.
Meh, I hardly think its some horrible fate, I just think it worth a little hand wringing. I don't mind if they ban NAZI's, I just think its worth paying attention to who they actually ban and then criticizing them if they get a little too ban happy. Which is pretty much in the eye of the beholder.

I can certainly understand folks that might be willing to go a little farther given that facebook does have a near monopoly over the megaphone.

Is there anyone else in this thread going much further than that?

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm in favor of people being able to tell people in Che Guevara shirts they don't get to use their soapbox.
Would it be a bit worrisome, perhaps worthy of criticism even, if facebook decided to ban images of Che?

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The problem with saying "Defending free speech is ALWAYS about defending the rights of abhorrent people" is that that is functionally identical to just defending the horrible people.

If you always and only defend X when Y is involved, you aren't defending X, you're defending Y and not admitting it.
IS the ACLU just a bunch NAZI and Pedophile supporters then. Defending free speech is always about defending the speech of folks that are offensive or abhorrent to someone. There's not much point in defending speech of those who nobody wants to censor.

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Old 22nd April 2019, 12:02 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Does anyone think that Nazism is not inherently violent and it doesn't call for the killing of vast numbers of us (us meaning fellow citizens)?
Richard Spencer.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 12:06 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Not really

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswi...took-manhattan

At least america stood up to the Nazis and proudly said "no we will not take your jews, we hate the very idea of people seeking asylum here, solve you own jewish problem yourself" and they did. And as we see by modern policies around asylum seekers that was the right thing do to, I mean if we had granted Anne Frank asylum she never would be a world famous author after all.
This archaeological stuff is interesting, but not at all relevant to my post.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 12:08 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
This archaeological stuff is interesting, but not at all relevant to my post.
We can all agree that there is nothing wrong with white supremacists organizing marches full of people using nazi slogans and nazi imagery, and there is of course nothing remotely related to nazis about that. Those as we have been clearly told by the president are fine people. All perfectly clear.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 12:10 PM   #238
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Hmm I see it in conservative mindsets, breasts are of course horribly corrupting to the children, but hardcore nazi ideology is good for them.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 12:16 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
We can all agree that there is nothing wrong with white supremacists organizing marches full of people using nazi slogans and nazi imagery, and there is of course nothing remotely related to nazis about that. Those as we have been clearly told by the president are fine people. All perfectly clear.
Dude, I said "ever since Trump got elected" in post #104. I don't know why there's so much problem with that post, there's not a lot of words in it but maybe I typed it too fast.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 12:21 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Dude, I said "ever since Trump got elected" in post #104. I don't know why there's so much problem with that post, there's not a lot of words in it but maybe I typed it too fast.
I was describing the, in his words, fine people of the Charlottesville unite the right march. But thanks for playing. But I guess merely him being in office doesn't count as since he got elected for some reason.
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