ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Facebook incidents , Facebook issues , free speech issues , internet incidents

Reply
Old 23rd April 2019, 08:22 AM   #321
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 46,063
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post

I've posted this before and probably will again, but there was a pro-Trump event that got protested by a group of Black Lives Matter activists. But instead of getting in a fight, the Trumpers gave the BLM people the microphone and it turned out they had a lot of common ground.
The Trumpers were just working-class white people who wanted jobs and the BLM guys wanted dignity and recognition of police brutality.
Both groups hated bad cops.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fukHd60uAkI&t=272s
At least they will be happy when america is great and we can throw off these shackles of excessively high wages paid to the working class. Excessive wages is now apparently a problem for all Trumpers so said Trump.

So you would think that the working class Trump supporters would take issue with this kind of thing, like they might not think they are paid far too much but it doesn't seem to affect them at all. Like all the coal miners know that their problems are from excessive safety regulations and excessive pay.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 08:44 AM   #322
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,124
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
That's correct. There are two reasons that we only hear about the wingnut and Nazi groups:

1. They are the only groups "centrists" and "classical liberals" worry about losing their right to a soap-box for their bile.

2. They are the ones killing other people, thus prompting the clamp down.
Facebook also shut down "venezuela analysis" (leftwing, anti-voiolence page) and Occupy London's facebook page.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 08:47 AM   #323
sadhatter
Philosopher
 
sadhatter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,572
Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
If someone labels themselves as a nazi, then I am going to treat them as though they are a nazi.

If you have any objections to my behavior in this regard, state your case.
Do you often not actually clarify assumed facts before you make judgements?

For example, if your nephew says he is a ninja do you then avoid making him go to bed on time for fear he will kill you?
sadhatter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 08:51 AM   #324
sadhatter
Philosopher
 
sadhatter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,572
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
I was a 'free speech absolutist' of sorts.

But the effects of social media has made me rethink my position.

The technology has made it possible to radicalise or dupe pockets of extremists. case in point: antivaxers are having a real impact on herd immunity and measles are making a comeback. There are enough idiots to make flat earth believers a thing.

Likewise, extremist groups can radicalise small groups and spur them to violent action. I don't think these ideas can spread beyond a fringe group, bot OTOH these fringe groups can be dangerous.

Just look what the Russian FSB have managed to accomplish in terms of stoking divisions.

If I was running a big social platform, I'd be very concerned that my platform would be instrumental in the next church bombing or mosque shooting.

Social media has changed the game and I'm afraid we must adjust.
You mean other people must adjust.

This is why people hate us on the left. We spend all day coming up with rules that coincidentally have no impact on us but major impact on folks we don't like.
sadhatter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 08:53 AM   #325
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 46,063
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Do you often not actually clarify assumed facts before you make judgements?

For example, if your nephew says he is a ninja do you then avoid making him go to bed on time for fear he will kill you?
Ah so the basic idea is that the right wing are clearly childish immature people who don't understand what they say when they call for the ethnic cleansing of the US of all non whites.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 08:58 AM   #326
sadhatter
Philosopher
 
sadhatter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,572
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Who is a danger to society has to be looked at on a case-by-case basis.

Look I understand why this is opposed. I consume quite a bit of way-too-edgy content. I've followed my share of conspiracy theorists, alt-right podcasts, anarchist Youtubers etc. Believe me, I've enjoyed the Wild West of edgy opinions for twenty years. It's practically my hobby. But society will think it is more important that their local Synagogue doesn't get shot up then that Richard Spencer gets to have a say on Twitter. More important that their kid doesn't get a preventable disease than that some uninformed soccer mom gets to play healer on Facebook.
You realize how egotistical you sound right?

"People like myself, obviously can handle such material, but those plebs are dangerous. Their little minds just can't handle so many opinions coming at them. Just look at it. "

Maybe, just maybe you are not a genius and the problem is a bit more complicated of a solution than to use digital horse blunders.
sadhatter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 09:02 AM   #327
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 46,063
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
You realize how egotistical you sound right?

"People like myself, obviously can handle such material, but those plebs are dangerous. Their little minds just can't handle so many opinions coming at them. Just look at it. "

Maybe, just maybe you are not a genius and the problem is a bit more complicated of a solution than to use digital horse blunders.
And yet you were just trying the "hey they are just harmless children with their fake ok sign that is supposed to make people think they are a white supremacist for a laugh" Just like the christchurch shooter, he was clearly not a real white supremacist but your basic fake one from social media we can tell by his hands when his arrest photo was published. LOL for everyone who thinks he is a real white supremacist really pulled one over on them!
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 09:03 AM   #328
Eddie Dane
Philosopher
 
Eddie Dane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,552
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
At least they will be happy when america is great and we can throw off these shackles of excessively high wages paid to the working class. Excessive wages is now apparently a problem for all Trumpers so said Trump.

So you would think that the working class Trump supporters would take issue with this kind of thing, like they might not think they are paid far too much but it doesn't seem to affect them at all. Like all the coal miners know that their problems are from excessive safety regulations and excessive pay.
People who feel left behind voted for a right-wing populist. That's all.

Populists promise the moon and then never deliver. Maybe they will get sick of that eventually. Who knows?
__________________
Death to Videodrome! Long live the new flesh!
Eddie Dane is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 09:03 AM   #329
sadhatter
Philosopher
 
sadhatter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,572
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Ah so the basic idea is that the right wing are clearly childish immature people who don't understand what they say when they call for the ethnic cleansing of the US of all non whites.
Close.

First, most don't say that. Second, those that do are saying it to ruffle your feathers and freak you out and is working.

If I say " I'm gonna tear you in half" as a threat at the bar, you do not have the legal right to then shoot me because it's logical to believe I can do this just because I said it. Reality has to be looked at first.

When the few people say " I'm a nazi" say it, they mean " I'm a really powerful white man, both physically and politically, with an army of like minded folk behind me. " now look at the people saying it. Not a scary group of folks.
sadhatter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 09:06 AM   #330
sadhatter
Philosopher
 
sadhatter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,572
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And yet you were just trying the "hey they are just harmless children with their fake ok sign that is supposed to make people think they are a white supremacist for a laugh" Just like the christchurch shooter, he was clearly not a real white supremacist but your basic fake one from social media we can tell by his hands when his arrest photo was published. LOL for everyone who thinks he is a real white supremacist really pulled one over on them!
He was an ******* with a lot of weapons and a lack of empathy.

If I we're to take away his soapbox, his gun or his lack of empathy, I'd pick lack of empathy and avoid a tragedy. You would pick soapbox and people would still be dead.
sadhatter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 09:10 AM   #331
I Am The Scum
Illuminator
 
I Am The Scum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,813
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Do you often not actually clarify assumed facts before you make judgements?

For example, if your nephew says he is a ninja do you then avoid making him go to bed on time for fear he will kill you?
Like I said, if you have any objections to my behavior, please state your case.

I'm not going to waste time answering your dumb questions.
I Am The Scum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 09:13 AM   #332
Eddie Dane
Philosopher
 
Eddie Dane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,552
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
You realize how egotistical you sound right?

"People like myself, obviously can handle such material, but those plebs are dangerous. Their little minds just can't handle so many opinions coming at them. Just look at it. "

Maybe, just maybe you are not a genius and the problem is a bit more complicated of a solution than to use digital horse blunders.
Evidently, I can listen to hours of right-wing podcasts without hating Jews, laugh my ass off at Alex Jones and still not think school shootings are staged, and I doubt I'll find the Flat Earth society convincing.

I don't think I'm very special at all, but this is a numbers game: 5% of us are idiots and therein lies the problem.

This was fine when we had some Neo-Nazi living in Alaska distributing his message to his ten followers by mailing them casette tapes.

What would you do if you were Marc Zuckerberg? Let Alex Jones have his long angry rants about pedophilic drag queens who groom children? And then one of his followers detonates a nail bomb in a gay bar. People start pointing fingers at your respectable multi-billion advertising business. What will your press release look like?
__________________
Death to Videodrome! Long live the new flesh!
Eddie Dane is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 09:16 AM   #333
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 46,063
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
People who feel left behind voted for a right-wing populist. That's all.

Populists promise the moon and then never deliver. Maybe they will get sick of that eventually. Who knows?
They like all the kids in cages stuff and he did manage to get 1 million people off of health insurance so that is good to. Clearly this is what is needed to make america great, I mean getting rid of all the brown people was clear from day one but you can't hold racism against anyone. I mean who here doesn't regularly tweet out white supremacists? It is just one of those things that happens to every basic true american.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 09:17 AM   #334
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 46,063
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
He was an ******* with a lot of weapons and a lack of empathy.

If I we're to take away his soapbox, his gun or his lack of empathy, I'd pick lack of empathy and avoid a tragedy. You would pick soapbox and people would still be dead.
He was just a childish kid and no one should have taken anything he said seriously like if you were threatening to tear people in half. Just figures of speech.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 09:21 AM   #335
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 46,063
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Evidently, I can listen to hours of right-wing podcasts without hating Jews, laugh my ass off at Alex Jones and still not think school shootings are staged, and I doubt I'll find the Flat Earth society convincing.
At least the right wing is clear about the real causes of school shootings. Ostracising the nazi kid, that is what really caused the Parkland shooting, not is mildly extreme right wing politics. If only people were more accepting of white supremacists they wouldn't be shooting people. Right wing talking points 101.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 10:04 AM   #336
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 20,538
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
We are talking about people who label themselves.....
I could say I'm hung like a horse, doesn't make it true.

If they called themselves werewolves would you assume you needed silver bullets to kill them?

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
We've apparently already decided to judge people on the basis of superficial signaling, and not their actual actions. That ship has sailed.
As Darat has said it's people who espouse key aspects of Nazi ideology, and are proud to do so. Now you might argue that they are no true Nazi - although I'm not sure Nazism was such a coherent ideology, but it's quite likely that they are closer to Nazism than, say Mormons, Catholics, Presbyterians, and Orthodox Christians, although all claim to be Christian.


Also, if a violent racist wants to be called a Nazi, does it actually matter if they're not doctrinally pure, and spend a bit more hate on Blacks than on Jews?
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 10:16 AM   #337
CORed
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central City, Colorado, USA
Posts: 8,667
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Whoever owns the soapbox.

"OMG the person telling me to get off the soapbox he owns and I don't doesn't meet my standards" isn't... a thing.

I don't care if Facebook tomorrow says "Only left handed pirates can post on Facebook and we'll decide who's a left handed pirate."
Hay, I can still use Facebook under that rule. I'm left handed, and I have been known to use software for which I haven't purchased a proper license (I don't think I'm currently using anything unlicensed, though).
CORed is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 10:23 AM   #338
wareyin
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,825
Originally Posted by Stout View Post
I keep hearing about this but I rarely see it. Is this coming form people who really don't know what American style freedom of speech really means or that political affiliation is not a protected class ?

Sometimes people are shocked when I tell them that in Canada, we don't have freedom of speech like they do in the USA. We gave that up.
Judging by the posters in this thread, I'm going to go with not understanding freedom of speech.
wareyin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 10:37 AM   #339
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 46,063
Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Judging by the posters in this thread, I'm going to go with not understanding freedom of speech.
No it fits with the basic conservative rhetoric around free speech. Free speech is right wing people getting given a platform for free and of course not being turned away for their actions from anything, while having the freedom to turn away gays for being gay.

So it is a violation of free speech for a restaurant to refuse to serve nazi's but a triumph of free speech for a restaurant to turn away homosexuals.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 10:52 AM   #340
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 48,748
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
As is Cassandra to the fall of Troy, so am I to the argument by analogy.
I hope not, considering what happened to Cassandra.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 10:54 AM   #341
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,848
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
As Darat has said it's people who espouse key aspects of Nazi ideology, and are proud to do so. Now you might argue that they are no true Nazi - although I'm not sure Nazism was such a coherent ideology, but it's quite likely that they are closer to Nazism than, say Mormons, Catholics, Presbyterians, and Orthodox Christians, although all claim to be Christian.


Also, if a violent racist wants to be called a Nazi, does it actually matter if they're not doctrinally pure, and spend a bit more hate on Blacks than on Jews?
Actually, as far as the US goes, it's more that they've resorted to viewing the Jews as the masterminds directing the stupid black and brown people to destroy the white race by marrying white women. The use of "free speech" to incite violence against black communities has been common since reconstruction, when newspapers would publish lies about superpowered black men raping white women, which led to multiple black communities being destroyed and the residents slaughtered.

Compare the above to what Dylan Roof said when slaughtering a black church group who had welcomed him. The internet is simply more effective than the face-to-face recruitments that these violent supremacists used to require to get their message out, and companies like Facebook have allowed these communities to thrive for years, while banning people who criticized them.

But I do agree, if they want to wave nazi flags and chant nazi slogans in events organized by nazi-themed websites, I won't object if anyone calls them nazis. I personally call them "wannabe nazis" to mock them, but we should always be clear on who is an actual threat, and who simply has a different tactic.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
At least the right wing is clear about the real causes of school shootings. Ostracising the nazi kid, that is what really caused the Parkland shooting, not is mildly extreme right wing politics. If only people were more accepting of white supremacists they wouldn't be shooting people. Right wing talking points 101.
It's exactly like how Eliot Rodger would have never gone on a shooting rampage had a few women simply become his sex slaves. Or how Stephen Miller wouldn't have become a prominent white nationalist working for Cheeto Benito had Hispanic people simply followed him around picking up his trash.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 11:04 AM   #342
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 10,019
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That is a very broad brush you are applying here. Who gets to be the arbiter of what speech deserves protection and what doesn't?
If you followed the argument, that was explicitly stated.

Quote:
Rubbish. Every law must be firmly based on logic. Anything else and it is just deciding which lunatic will run the asylum.
Not rubbish, as that is what I was stating about the legal system: that it cannot both recognize and deny simultaneously.

Did you actually read anything?
__________________
Driftwood on an empty shore of the sea of meaninglessness. Irrelevant, weightless, inconsequential moment of existential hubris on the fast track to oblivion.
His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks. - shemp
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 11:32 AM   #343
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 20,538
Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Wow. Tu quoque and whataboutism as proponents of various Big Truths claim the other stinks. On ISF. Truly, we have indeed become the empty ranting echo chamber we often bemoan in Community. Skepticism? Meh.

Speech that directly denies or seeks to suppress political equality does not deserve protection within the same political system that guarantees that political freedom, as it denies the very foundation of the freedom it claims to do so. Logical contradiction is not a valid foundation for law. It creates permanent conflict and undermines the legal system and democracy. Jim Crow, for starters. North Carolina. Babies in cages. The contradiction persists in the US because of the progressive enshrining of the Founding Fathers and Constitution in – vomit your guts out – "divinely inspired" or "übermensch" clothing. The GOP has publicly shoesized its democratic IQ in an attempt to make fascism sound like sunshine and flowers.

I hold to the exact same position wrt religious doctrine: those creeds that would deny freedom of religion to all other faiths cannot possibly deserve protection under that very same freedom, or it is no freedom at all. Currently, Christians are the worst offenders, but the other Abrahamics are close behind, taking turns with their threats.

The enemy of any single political freedom, or all such freedom, is totalitarian doctrine, be it religious or political. Historical inevitability, racial purity, nationalism, an Abrahamic/Hindu/Buddhist neck slicer... whatever: all crap. Perfect truths, on human faces, wear a death mask. They all deserve Hume's Guillotine.
uke2se has the following quote in his signature

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 11:46 AM   #344
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 46,063
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
It's exactly like how Eliot Rodger would have never gone on a shooting rampage had a few women simply become his sex slaves. Or how Stephen Miller wouldn't have become a prominent white nationalist working for Cheeto Benito had Hispanic people simply followed him around picking up his trash.
If the synagogue had only known not to try to help those seeking asylum Robert D. Bowers would never have had to shoot it up. Really a first rate conservative knowing that when conservatives say never again they mean never again will we fail to send those seeking asylum back to where they will be killed, like when we proudly stood up to Hitler and told him that no we would not take his jews in and he would have to find his own solution to his jewish problem. One of the proudest moments in conservative american history.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 11:56 AM   #345
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 43,815
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
uke2se has the following quote in his signature

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
The problem who decides who is intolerant and who is not?
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 12:05 PM   #346
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 46,063
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The problem who decides who is intolerant and who is not?
Yea it is so hard to know who the real bigot is, bigotry against the bigots is the worst kind of bigotry. I mean when someone spouts off about being the superior race how are we supposed to know if they are the bigot or the libtard thinking there is something wrong with that is the bigot?
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 01:04 PM   #347
GnaGnaMan
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,570
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The problem who decides who is intolerant and who is not?
Yes. It's like with property. Who decides who owns what? Who's even to say what can be owned and what not?

This whole law thing is just a complete non-starter.
__________________
It makes no difference whatever whether they laugh at us or revile us, whether they represent us as clowns or criminals; the main thing is that they mention us, that they concern themselves with us again and again. -Hitler
GnaGnaMan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 01:28 PM   #348
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,848
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
If the synagogue had only known not to try to help those seeking asylum Robert D. Bowers would never have had to shoot it up. Really a first rate conservative knowing that when conservatives say never again they mean never again will we fail to send those seeking asylum back to where they will be killed, like when we proudly stood up to Hitler and told him that no we would not take his jews in and he would have to find his own solution to his jewish problem. One of the proudest moments in conservative american history.
In a way, this gets to the heart of the matter - modern "conservatism" (in the US, it's much less "conservative" than it is "republican party") that goads this sort of terrorist into action. It's not about taking a soapbox from Dylann Roof, it's about yanking it from under Richard Spencer (and definitely covering him as the genocidal freak he is, rather than "the Dapper white supremacist" as if the objection to white supremacism is their fashion choices). It's not about taking a soapbox from Elizabeth Hokoana, it's about taking it from Milo Yamomsasnitch (or whatever his name is - I can't be bothered to look it up). It's not about getting rid of the folks that harrass Parkland survivors or the parents of the Sandy Hook victims - it's about holding Alex Jones accountable for goading these people on. It's not about Robert Bowers or that idiot that attacked a CNN cameraman, it's about taking the soapbox from Dolt 45. We've seen the effects of their hatred and fearmongering, and it's nothing but terrorism and cruelty. Not a single one of them have contributed anything positive to make up for the harm done by their fanatical followers.

So you know what? If they're left to rant on a street corner as people mock them, good! But it turns out that the "Marketplace of Ideas" functions about as well as the "Market of Mortgage-Backed Securities" - with no rules, it routinely explodes and causes devastation.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 01:51 PM   #349
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 73,414
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
There is not and there has never been "absolute" freedom of speech. Speech that is (falsely) defamatory, threatens harm or incites others to commit harm has always been unlawful and rightfully so.

But you now want to extend limitations on free speech so that they extend to mere opinions. This is not acceptable.
It's also a misinterpretation of the facts.

It's not opinion alone, it's opinion intertwined with behavior.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 02:12 PM   #350
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,345
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
At least the right wing is clear about the real causes of school shootings. Ostracising the nazi kid, that is what really caused the Parkland shooting, not is mildly extreme right wing politics. If only people were more accepting of white supremacists they wouldn't be shooting people. Right wing talking points 101.
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
No it fits with the basic conservative rhetoric around free speech. Free speech is right wing people getting given a platform for free and of course not being turned away for their actions from anything, while having the freedom to turn away gays for being gay.

So it is a violation of free speech for a restaurant to refuse to serve nazi's but a triumph of free speech for a restaurant to turn away homosexuals.
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
If the synagogue had only known not to try to help those seeking asylum Robert D. Bowers would never have had to shoot it up. Really a first rate conservative knowing that when conservatives say never again they mean never again will we fail to send those seeking asylum back to where they will be killed, like when we proudly stood up to Hitler and told him that no we would not take his jews in and he would have to find his own solution to his jewish problem. One of the proudest moments in conservative american history.
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The problem who decides who is intolerant and who is not?

What he said ^ Definitely.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yea it is so hard to know who the real bigot is, bigotry against the bigots is the worst kind of bigotry. I mean when someone spouts off about being the superior race how are we supposed to know if they are the bigot or the libtard thinking there is something wrong with that is the bigot?

You're on a roll, keep 'em coming!
__________________
Franklin understands certain kickbacks you obtain unfairly are legal liabilities; however, a risky deed's almost never detrimental despite extra external pressures.
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 03:23 PM   #351
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,071
Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
Yes. It's like with property. Who decides who owns what? Who's even to say what can be owned and what not?

This whole law thing is just a complete non-starter.
Why are you appealing to the law to solve that problem? There is no legal definition of tolerant vs intolerant people.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 04:00 PM   #352
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 11,400
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Keep that paranoid media-barrage up long enough and it's only a matter of time before some nut shoots some poor person walking out a gay bar after a Ru Paul karaoke night.
Or some deranged nutcase shoots up a Pizza shop.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/22/u...-sentence.html
__________________
#THEYAREUS
The Mueller Report must be released to Congress in full - If Trump has nothing to hide, then he should also have nothing to fear!

Last edited by smartcooky; 23rd April 2019 at 04:37 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 04:39 PM   #353
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 11,400
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
In a way, this gets to the heart of the matter - modern "conservatism" (in the US, it's much less "conservative" than it is "republican party") that goads this sort of terrorist into action. It's not about taking a soapbox from Dylann Roof, it's about yanking it from under Richard Spencer (and definitely covering him as the genocidal freak he is, rather than "the Dapper white supremacist" as if the objection to white supremacism is their fashion choices). It's not about taking a soapbox from Elizabeth Hokoana, it's about taking it from Milo Yamomsasnitch (or whatever his name is - I can't be bothered to look it up). It's not about getting rid of the folks that harrass Parkland survivors or the parents of the Sandy Hook victims - it's about holding Alex Jones accountable for goading these people on. It's not about Robert Bowers or that idiot that attacked a CNN cameraman, it's about taking the soapbox from Dolt 45. We've seen the effects of their hatred and fearmongering, and it's nothing but terrorism and cruelty. Not a single one of them have contributed anything positive to make up for the harm done by their fanatical followers.

So you know what? If they're left to rant on a street corner as people mock them, good! But it turns out that the "Marketplace of Ideas" functions about as well as the "Market of Mortgage-Backed Securities" - with no rules, it routinely explodes and causes devastation.
__________________
#THEYAREUS
The Mueller Report must be released to Congress in full - If Trump has nothing to hide, then he should also have nothing to fear!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 05:45 PM   #354
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 15,964
What legal principle are people asserting Facebook be forced to give up their freedom of association? Is anyone arguing that Facebook should be considered a utility?

It's weird that the general 'side' that argues against even net-neutrality seem to be taking the opposite view for Facebook for...reasons?
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 05:58 PM   #355
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,071
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
What legal principle are people asserting Facebook be forced to give up their freedom of association?
Is anyone here arguing that Facebook should be forced to give up their freedom of association? I haven't so argued, I've only claimed that Facebook is acting badly, not illegally.

But more generally, businesses are frequently denied freedom of association on the grounds of anti-discrimination laws.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 06:30 PM   #356
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 14,330
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Never said it was his argument. Just supplying some information that you didn't seem to know.
I was giving Eddie the credit of knowing that the government can't tell a multinational media company what it can publish in a foreign country.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

Last edited by psionl0; 23rd April 2019 at 06:34 PM.
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 06:47 PM   #357
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 14,330
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Who is a danger to society has to be looked at on a case-by-case basis.

Look I understand why this is opposed. I consume quite a bit of way-too-edgy content. I've followed my share of conspiracy theorists, alt-right podcasts, anarchist Youtubers etc. Believe me, I've enjoyed the Wild West of edgy opinions for twenty years. It's practically my hobby. But society will think it is more important that their local Synagogue doesn't get shot up then that Richard Spencer gets to have a say on Twitter. More important that their kid doesn't get a preventable disease than that some uninformed soccer mom gets to play healer on Facebook.
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Evidently, I can listen to hours of right-wing podcasts without hating Jews, laugh my ass off at Alex Jones and still not think school shootings are staged, and I doubt I'll find the Flat Earth society convincing.

I don't think I'm very special at all, but this is a numbers game: 5% of us are idiots and therein lies the problem.

This was fine when we had some Neo-Nazi living in Alaska distributing his message to his ten followers by mailing them casette tapes.

What would you do if you were Marc Zuckerberg? Let Alex Jones have his long angry rants about pedophilic drag queens who groom children? And then one of his followers detonates a nail bomb in a gay bar. People start pointing fingers at your respectable multi-billion advertising business. What will your press release look like?
Assuming that there exists somebody who is wise enough and incorruptible enough to decide what information the 5% can be exposed to (assuming that this is not a made up statistic) you haven't made a case for trying to suppress this information.

Can you imagine what would happen if governments attempted to make dissenting opinions about vaccinations illegal? Even reasonable people would begin to suspect that a conspiracy was afoot. That 5% of people who were antivaxers would surely rise.

You are proposing tactics similar to those used in the "war" against drugs.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

Last edited by psionl0; 23rd April 2019 at 08:03 PM.
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 09:34 PM   #358
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,848
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Is anyone here arguing that Facebook should be forced to give up their freedom of association? I haven't so argued, I've only claimed that Facebook is acting badly, not illegally.

But more generally, businesses are frequently denied freedom of association on the grounds of anti-discrimination laws.
Facebook (along with quite a few other social media sites) has been "acting badly" for years now, by stifling objections to these wannabe Nazis, TERFs, and KKKers, while letting actual hate mobs run wild.

And as this article in Slate points out, this was seen from miles away from the people best positioned to see it, and all warnings were pointedly ignored, if not mocked. Maybe it's time for these sites to listen to the people who got it right at every turn, drawing on the work of Ida B. Wells and others who were at it more than a century ago, and ignoring the Michael Tracys, Gawker writers, and Twitter CEOs who work from a tradition that has always gotten it wrong.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 09:52 PM   #359
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 73,414
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Facebook (along with quite a few other social media sites) has been "acting badly" for years now, by stifling objections to these wannabe Nazis, TERFs, and KKKers, while letting actual hate mobs run wild.

And as this article in Slate points out, this was seen from miles away from the people best positioned to see it, and all warnings were pointedly ignored, if not mocked. Maybe it's time for these sites to listen to the people who got it right at every turn, drawing on the work of Ida B. Wells and others who were at it more than a century ago, and ignoring the Michael Tracys, Gawker writers, and Twitter CEOs who work from a tradition that has always gotten it wrong.
That's a fascinating article, thanks for sharing.

It's so relevant to the subject of social internet haters on these two sites (FB and Twitter) plus flooding comment sections and stalking people.

What is it about feminism that is so threatening to some men?
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 23rd April 2019 at 09:55 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 10:15 PM   #360
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 11,400
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
And as this article in Slate points out, this was seen from miles away from the people best positioned to see it, and all warnings were pointedly ignored, if not mocked. Maybe it's time for these sites to listen to the people who got it right at every turn, drawing on the work of Ida B. Wells and others who were at it more than a century ago, and ignoring the Michael Tracys, Gawker writers, and Twitter CEOs who work from a tradition that has always gotten it wrong.
And if just a few idiots from 4Chan can create such a furore of hate with so few resources and get the attention Carlson, then just imagine what the resources of the FSB and the Russian Government could do.... oh, wait!!
__________________
#THEYAREUS
The Mueller Report must be released to Congress in full - If Trump has nothing to hide, then he should also have nothing to fear!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:07 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.