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Old 27th April 2019, 01:32 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Perhaps because they had been named after females?
Ships that have male names are referred to in the masculine gender.
The Edmund Fitzgerald come to mind as well as the Nimitz.
Maybe we are looking way too deep into this. It's all just a matter of names.
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Old 27th April 2019, 02:00 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Any furriner speaking types here? Do the French, Spanish, etc... call boats/vessels "she".
Czech language: gender: female, base word for declension: píseň or kost (one of dual words, where both options are valid)

==

As for calls to "de-gender" language: I guess that's what happens when apparently people ran out of real problems and have to start inventing new cases just to keep themselves busy with solving non-problems.

But then, it has zero chance of ever getting anywhere near Czech language and English was always bastard of languages, so what - just yet another stupid twist here or there…
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Old 27th April 2019, 05:36 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Any furriner speaking types here? Do the French, Spanish, etc... call boats/vessels "she".
In Norwegian: only the oldest guys. And people who pretend to be very maritime.
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Old 27th April 2019, 08:08 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Actually, the petty authorities like various maritime bodies have been getting away from "she" for vessels for a long time.

Petty authoritarianism is, to be clear, "Well, that's just the way it is and that's how we're gonna do it 'cuz my daddy did it that way, and his daddy and his daddy's daddy." In short, the opposite of what you seem to be arguing.

I spent fifty years in shipping and have been on many ocean vessels. It is not as customary as you think for masters and mates to refer to ships as "she". In the industry, we more often call them "it".
No. Petty authoritarianism would be "I don't like this trivial, harmless thing some people are doing, so I'm going to try to force them to behave like me."

You worked in shipping. I work in museums. I'm annoyed that museum galleries can be defaced just to make political noise about an irrelevant topic.
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Old 27th April 2019, 10:36 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by ThatGuy11200 View Post
No. Petty authoritarianism would be "I don't like this trivial, harmless thing some people are doing, so I'm going to try to force them to behave like me."
Apparently you don't understand what authoritarianism is, petty or not. You were arguing with an individual, not someone in a position of authority. You are falling back on tradition as the counter to his "petty authoritarianism". That is the exact opposite of the situation. The "bu-bu-but it's tradition" is an appeal to an illusory authority.

Quote:
You worked in shipping. I work in museums. I'm annoyed that museum galleries can be defaced just to make political noise about an irrelevant topic.
My career had relevance to the topic. Yours does not and defacing a gallery or a piece of art is a crime. Calling a vessel "it" is not. And even Arthwollipot who made the best delineation of the issue, is not arguing that there should be some sort of penalty attached to the stubbornness of sticking to the old pronouns.
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Old 27th April 2019, 10:54 AM   #86
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It all started to go downhill when the PC brigade decided that children couldn't all be called girl.

Seriously it was "traditional" for a long time for children to be called girls, longer than it has been that we have separate labels for male and female children. Language, especially it seems English, changes all the time.

And I don't think this is one of those changes, this one is simply a matter of preference. I have many older books in which ships are described as "it", indeed until this came up I would have said refering to ships as she was reserved for those that sailed in it/her when speaking colloquially . A bit like with cars, no one describes cars as "she" when talking in the general but may refer to their own car as she and even that is a personal preference, my cars have always been "he".
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Old 28th April 2019, 06:32 PM   #87
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My cars are inanimate objects. They do not have a gender.
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Old 28th April 2019, 06:55 PM   #88
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I've anthropomorphosed my cars sometimes, but never in a gendered way. The car was always still "it", or "the car", or occasionally "that infernal machine".
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Old 29th April 2019, 12:38 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Not like they don't name ships after men... Prince of Wales, King George V, Iron Duke.
No, but they tend to be the minority.
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Old 29th April 2019, 12:42 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Who put them in charge?
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Old 29th April 2019, 02:08 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Who put them in charge?
Consensus.

AP style is used by many writers and journalists. It's kind of the standard reference tool, although both Chicago style and the NYT style guide are readily used. The Chicago style is considered more authoritative, but the good news is that according to AP, NYT, and Chicago Style... boats, ships and vessels are "it".

The practice of referring to a ship as "she" or "her" is being relegated to "old fart affectation". The British Marine Industries Federation sounds impressive (guy cited in the OP article) but it's an association for pleasure craft owners - weekend sailors, and those are the sort of gits who are most likely to adopt the affectation.

Lloyd's List, Jane's, and every vessel-operating shipping line I ever dealt with do not use the feminine pronouns. The fact that Clifton St.John Upton-Smythe of King's Lynn prefers it? Not so impressive.
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Old 29th April 2019, 03:49 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
My cars are inanimate objects. They do not have a gender.
Do they have individual names?
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Old 29th April 2019, 04:04 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
AP style is used by many writers and journalists. It's kind of the standard reference tool, although both Chicago style and the NYT style guide are readily used. The Chicago style is considered more authoritative, but the good news is that according to AP, NYT, and Chicago Style... boats, ships and vessels are "it".
A bunch of American organisations are not global arbitrators of language.

Quote:
The practice of referring to a ship as "she" or "her" is being relegated to "old fart affectation". The British Marine Industries Federation sounds impressive (guy cited in the OP article) but it's an association for pleasure craft owners - weekend sailors, and those are the sort of gits who are most likely to adopt the affectation.

Lloyd's List, Jane's, and every vessel-operating shipping line I ever dealt with do not use the feminine pronouns. The fact that Clifton St.John Upton-Smythe of King's Lynn prefers it? Not so impressive.
It's a pity for your argument that the BBC and the Royal Navy still say "her" and "she," then.
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Old 29th April 2019, 04:23 AM   #94
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Surely some reference to being full of se(a)men is long overdue?
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Old 29th April 2019, 06:01 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
A bunch of American organisations are not global arbitrators of language.



It's a pity for your argument that the BBC and the Royal Navy still say "her" and "she," then.
From the BBC news style guide:
QE2
(ie no gap - and a digit) is acceptable even at first reference for the liner Queen Elizabeth 2. Note it is not named after the current monarch, but is the second ship named Queen Elizabeth, therefore it is "2" rather than "II".
And

ships
Ships should not be treated as feminine (eg: A US aircraft-carrier has disappeared in the Atlantic. It was carrying 400 men - and not "She was carrying..."). Ships are unloaded - and not "offloaded". Naval ships and liners generally have captains. Cargo ships, including tankers, have masters (although, if a name is used, they too are referred to as Capt). Trawlers have skippers.
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Old 29th April 2019, 06:02 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Surely some reference to being full of se(a)men is long overdue?
We'd all been so good and then you had to go there......
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Old 29th April 2019, 01:37 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
From the BBC news style guide:

ships
Ships should not be treated as feminine (eg: A US aircraft-carrier has disappeared in the Atlantic. It was carrying 400 men - and not "She was carrying..."). Ships are unloaded - and not "offloaded". Naval ships and liners generally have captains. Cargo ships, including tankers, have masters (although, if a name is used, they too are referred to as Capt). Trawlers have skippers.
Doesn't seem to be rigorously enforced:

"A century ago the UK started work on the world's first purpose-built aircraft carrier.

Soon the first jets will fly off the massive deck of her latest successor - the giant HMS Queen Elizabeth. Along with her sister ship, HMS Prince of Wales, they’re the largest warships ever to be built for the Royal Navy...

She has been built to carry up to 36 new F-35 stealth jets, as well as helicopters. But in reality she'll routinely sail with fewer than half that number.

The first jets will fly off her deck in flight trials taking place off the east coast of the US this autumn. And she'll sail on her first “operational deployment” in 2021.

HMS Queen Elizabeth is like a small town. Her engines could provide enough power to run tens of thousands of homes.

The ship, and her sister carrier, HMS Prince of Wales, may have been inspired by US Navy equivalents, but the design is uniquely British...." [source]
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Old 29th April 2019, 06:18 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Do they have individual names?
Yes. The car I am currently driving, for example, is a 2016 Honda Jazz.

Oh, you mean do I give them personal names? No. Why would I?
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Old 29th April 2019, 06:46 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Do they have individual names?
Even if you decide to bestow a human name onto a car (or other type of vehicle), including one that is mostly reserved for people of one gender/sex or another, that doesn't give it a gender. Moreover, someone lacking a personal name doesn't necessarily lack a gender.
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Old 29th April 2019, 07:52 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
A bunch of American organisations are not global arbitrators of language.
You are not the arbitrator of who are arbitrators. And you spelled 'organizations' wrong.

AP Stylebook
Quote:
The Associated Press Stylebook and Briefing on Media Law, usually called the AP Stylebook, is an English grammar style and usage guide created by American journalists working for or connected with the Associated Press over the last century to standardize mass communications...

The Associated Press organization was first created in 1846. Throughout much of its history, the AP maintained a style book for member reporters. By the early 1950s the publication was formalized into the AP Stylebook and became the leading professional English grammar reference by most member and non-member news bureaus throughout the world.
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Old 29th April 2019, 08:15 PM   #101
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I've given a few cars names over the years, but they've always been neuter.
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Old 29th April 2019, 08:54 PM   #102
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And furthermore, the Style Book is not the arbiter of language. It details best practice. When you write, you are free to pay no attention to it if you wish. But if you write for a living - if you're a journalist or technical writer or you write policy for the government, you'd better know what your required style guide says.
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Old 29th April 2019, 10:15 PM   #103
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Interestingly, some of Czech trains have names, usually female. (Example)
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Old 30th April 2019, 02:24 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
You are not the arbitrator of who are arbitrators. And you spelled 'organizations' wrong.

AP Stylebook
Quote:
The Associated Press Stylebook and Briefing on Media Law, usually called the AP Stylebook, is an English grammar style and usage guide created by American journalists working for or connected with the Associated Press over the last century to standardize mass communications...

The Associated Press organization was first created in 1846. Throughout much of its history, the AP maintained a style book for member reporters. By the early 1950s the publication was formalized into the AP Stylebook and became the leading professional English grammar reference by most member and non-member news bureaus throughout the world.
American organisation claims global authority. Quelle surprise.
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Old 30th April 2019, 07:34 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Doesn't seem to be rigorously enforced:



"A century ago the UK started work on the world's first purpose-built aircraft carrier.



Soon the first jets will fly off the massive deck of her latest successor - the giant HMS Queen Elizabeth. Along with her sister ship, HMS Prince of Wales, they’re the largest warships ever to be built for the Royal Navy...



She has been built to carry up to 36 new F-35 stealth jets, as well as helicopters. But in reality she'll routinely sail with fewer than half that number.



The first jets will fly off her deck in flight trials taking place off the east coast of the US this autumn. And she'll sail on her first “operational deployment” in 2021.



HMS Queen Elizabeth is like a small town. Her engines could provide enough power to run tens of thousands of homes.



The ship, and her sister carrier, HMS Prince of Wales, may have been inspired by US Navy equivalents, but the design is uniquely British...." [source]
A style guide is just what it says it is, a guide but it is very clear that the BBC does not agree with the use of she for ships.
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Old 30th April 2019, 07:52 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I've given a few cars names over the years, but they've always been neuter.
My wife's car is The Tardis. According to The Doctor, she's female.
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Old 30th April 2019, 08:07 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I firmly believe that gender-neutral language is a worthy goal to work towards.
Why?
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Old 30th April 2019, 09:54 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
A style guide is just what it says it is, a guide but it is very clear that the BBC does not agree with the use of she for ships.
It's also clear that in actual usage not everyone at the BBC agrees with it.
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Old 5th May 2019, 05:00 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Why?
Um...

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The opposite of conservative isn't liberal. The opposite of conservative is progressive. Conservative thinking is that the status quo is better than change. Progressive thinking is that change is desirable when it is done for valid reasons.

There is no valid reason to maintain the status quo on referring to ships as "she". The only argument you have is that "it's the way we've always done it", ie. tradition. Unless you are of the idea that preserving tradition is somehow an inherent good in and of itself (and let's stick to language here - traditional culture is something different), there's no reason to keep doing it.

On the other hand, gender neutral language is an inherent good. Language has been marginalising women from time immemorial. When asked to describe what they see when they picture a "hero", most people will describe a hero who is tough, brave, a risk-taker, and overwhelmingly, male. "Hero" is not a gendered word, but the "default" hero is male. For one of those female heroes, we have a special word - heroine. An "actor" is by default male. If you have an actor who isn't male, you have to single her out with the word "actress". Women are a deviation from the norm. They are aberrant, an exception. Think of how many times you hear or read about a "female professor". No! She's a professor. But if I start telling you about a professor I know, the image that will be conjured up in your mind is overwhelmingly likely to be male unless I take steps to make sure I refer to her as female. If I don't take such steps, then in your mind the professor is male. Male is the default.

Did you read the Person Paper I linked above? The tl;dr is that Hofstadter analogises the genderedness of language by imagining a world where instead of language being divided into male and female, with male being the default, language is divided into white and black, with white being the default. Then he makes ALL the arguments that people have made against gender neutral language in the form of arguments against race-neutral language. And it's shocking. It should be shocking. That's its purpose. I was shocked by it when I first read it, and it completely changed my opinion about gendered language.

Women can be heroes. Women can be actors. Women can be firefighters, soldiers, aviators, professors, engineers, electricians, pilots and doctors. We don't need gendered language. We don't need to single women out as something other than the default. If we really want a world where men and women are treated equally, which I think we do, then treating them equally in language is a good start.

Here endeth the lesson.
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Old 5th May 2019, 05:04 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
American organisation claims global authority. Quelle surprise.
You'll find that the AP Style Guide is used in America. Here in Australia we have something called the Style Manual. The United Kingdom has another. Canada has another. Every country has its official style guide that is used, mainly, by governments for official communications. Journalists and other organisations use them to maintain consistency in their publications.

For example, according to the Australian Style Manual, the word "colour" is spelled with a "u". In this, we differ from the AP Style Guide, which has neither global authority nor global applicability. A lot of organisations use it because a majority of native English speakers are American.
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Old 5th May 2019, 11:19 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Um...
Solution in search of problem so people can keep themselves uselessly busy because they apparently already ran out of real problems to solve.
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Old 5th May 2019, 11:31 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
Solution in search of problem so people can keep themselves uselessly busy because they apparently already ran out of real problems to solve.
As though it's true that problems can only be solved one at a time.
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Old 6th May 2019, 12:41 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You'll find that the AP Style Guide is used in America. Here in Australia we have something called the Style Manual. The United Kingdom has another. Canada has another. Every country has its official style guide that is used, mainly, by governments for official communications. Journalists and other organisations use them to maintain consistency in their publications.
It's also self-evident at the vast majority of normal people's speech is unaffected by them. As noted, even within the BBC their own guide is ignored on this particular issue, and the Royal Navy is continuing to do what it has always done.
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Old 6th May 2019, 02:11 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
It's also self-evident at the vast majority of normal people's speech is unaffected by them. As noted, even within the BBC their own guide is ignored on this particular issue, and the Royal Navy is continuing to do what it has always done.
Is sometimes ignored.but I think it is time to accept that you were wrong.
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Old 6th May 2019, 02:17 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Can I ask why?

If this is what feminists have left to concentrate on fixing she is hardly looking like a struggle for equality
What is this kind of fallacy called? I mean like we can’t distribute our social efforts across multiple fronts can we?
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Old 6th May 2019, 02:30 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Is sometimes ignored.but I think it is time to accept that you were wrong.
It is a fact that style guides mean nothing when it comes to everyday language. They can insist on some rule or other until the compilers are blue in the face, but they won't change how people speak, nor indeed how many - even professionals - write.

It's interesting that people have resorted to "style guides says this" as if it's the final word, without actually considering why they say it, especially when it is contrary to real life speech and written usage.

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Old 6th May 2019, 05:31 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
As though it's true that problems can only be solved one at a time.
How the hell did you get that out of my post is beyond any understanding. And you want to change language…

In no way, shape or form did I said that nor even implied that.

Is there there some kind of award for biggest miss of point of year?
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Old 6th May 2019, 06:21 AM   #118
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Once they develop ships that can transform into anthropomorphic robots with a female appearance I will forgive you for calling it a she.
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Old 6th May 2019, 08:04 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Once they develop ships that can transform into anthropomorphic robots with a female appearance I will forgive you for calling it a she.
Here you go. She's a spaceship, in fact.
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Old 6th May 2019, 04:28 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
It's also self-evident at the vast majority of normal people's speech is unaffected by them. As noted, even within the BBC their own guide is ignored on this particular issue, and the Royal Navy is continuing to do what it has always done.
While this is true, it is trivially true. Style Guides do not purport to govern common speech - that's neither their purpose nor their usage. They exist to make official publications consistent. They have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with common speech. The AP Style Guide was referred to as an illustration, not as a diktat.
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