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Tags California incidents , California issues , gun control , gun incidents

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Old 8th May 2019, 06:54 PM   #1
William Parcher
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Another huge gun collection seized in California

We had another one of these incidents last year.

More Than 1,000 Guns Found in Bel-Air, California Home During Investigation Into Selling, Manufacturing of Weapons

Originally Posted by KTLA 5 News
One person was detained at the home in the 100 block of N. Beverly Glen and is cooperating with authorities, police said. Police only described that person as a "he."

Los Angeles Police Department and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives officials were conducting a joint investigation when a search warrant was served about 4 a.m.

Aerial video from Sky5 showed federal agents and police examining thousands of guns laid out in a courtyard area of the home. The property is in an upscale area of multimillion-dollar homes...

Public property records for the address being searched indicate it's a five-bedroom, 8,200-square-foot home that last sold in 2001. Its value is estimated at more than $7 million, according to real estate website Redfin dot com. It is unclear who owns the home, or if the homeowner is the person in custody...
https://ktla.com/2019/05/08/hundreds...area-home-lapd
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File Type: jpg guns-side.jpg (138.8 KB, 65 views)
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Old 8th May 2019, 06:59 PM   #2
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I do not know enough about guns. Can anyone who does look at the photographs and recognize any pieces that appear to be obviously modified or nonstandard?
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Old 8th May 2019, 07:55 PM   #3
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I see a lot of Mini-14s, but those are legal non-assault rifles.

But if he was making 80%ers for others, without a gun-makers license, he's toast.
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Old 8th May 2019, 08:10 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
But if he was making 80%ers
Explain please?
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Old 9th May 2019, 12:21 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Explain please?
I think this is it:

Quote:
WHAT IS A 80% LOWER RECEIVER?

The US Gun Control Act of 1968 allows for the assembly of parts leading to the construction of an unregistered weapon. ATF guidelines state that as long as gun parts are not more than 80 percent completed into a working firearm, then they are not legally considered a gun. That allows for retailers to sell nearly complete parts, with easy-to-follow instructions to finish the remaining 20 percent needed to bring the gun parts into a firing condition
https://wjla.com/features/7-on-your-side/ghost-guns
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Old 9th May 2019, 01:01 AM   #6
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Thanks....that's very interesting. What a strangely worded guideline. My first (inexpert) impression is that it sounds like it was specifically written to enable this particular subversion of itself.
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Old 9th May 2019, 02:08 AM   #7
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Why are these government thugs trampling on the constitutional rights of a proud American
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Old 9th May 2019, 05:25 AM   #8
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I'm amazed at the location. Not something I would associate with Beverly Glen Boulevard. This is a neighborhood of extreme wealth. If you told me that somebody there has a huge gun collection I would expect English shotguns or antique Colts.

Instead it's a huge pile of everyday shooter stuff. Like quantity over quality, though everything appears to be new condition.
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Old 9th May 2019, 05:28 AM   #9
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Maybe I'm seeing things wrong. Maybe there are valuable collector handguns mixed in there.
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Old 9th May 2019, 05:29 AM   #10
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Link to larger photo.

https://tribktla.files.wordpress.com...=all&strip=all
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Old 9th May 2019, 05:46 AM   #11
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Very large high definition photo. This is an eclectic grouping including some older collectibles.

https://cbsla.files.wordpress.com/20...gunslapd12.jpg
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Old 9th May 2019, 05:57 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Very large high definition photo. This is an eclectic grouping including some older collectibles.

https://cbsla.files.wordpress.com/20...gunslapd12.jpg
It is an odd mix for an illegal cache. It looks like someone had cleaned out half a dozen gun shops in the late '80s. A few light sporting rifles, some hunting rifles, common semi-auto pistols, a lot of modern medium caliber revolvers, western style single action revolvers, and surprisingly several top break Webley and Enfield revolvers.

Last edited by Pope130; 9th May 2019 at 05:59 AM.
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Old 9th May 2019, 06:03 AM   #13
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Long guns include Thompsons or their reproductions. Do I see an Uzi with a silencer?

https://media.foxla.com/media.foxla....0_1280_720.jpg

https://media.nbcbayarea.com/images/...2019-3.PNG.jpg
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Old 9th May 2019, 06:07 AM   #14
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Junky cars in the driveway. Like some keep-everything crazy hoarder.
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Old 9th May 2019, 06:18 AM   #15
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Here is the old longhair being arrested. I don't recognize him as a famous celebrity. Please don't tell me that is Sam Elliot.

https://cdn.abcotvs.com/dip/images/5...img.jpg?w=1600
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Old 9th May 2019, 06:35 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Long guns include Thompsons or their reproductions. Do I see an Uzi with a silencer?

https://media.foxla.com/media.foxla....0_1280_720.jpg

https://media.nbcbayarea.com/images/...2019-3.PNG.jpg
The Thompsons I can see have the longer barrel of the legal semi-auto carbine, so, unless modified, are legal (in most states) pistol caliber carbines. The Uzi appears to have a suppressor, but could also be a cosmetic barrel shroud over the carbine length barrel. You'd have to get hands-on to determine it's legal status.

ETA: I notice that both the Thompsons still have their makers hang tags on them. Weird.

Last edited by Pope130; 9th May 2019 at 06:40 AM.
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Old 9th May 2019, 06:39 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
The Thompsons I can see have the longer barrel of the legal semi-auto carbine, so, unless modified, are legal (in most states) pistol caliber carbines. The Uzi appears to have a suppressor, but could also be a cosmetic barrel shroud over the carbine length barrel. You'd have to get hands-on to determine it's legal status.
I thought the Thompsons looked too long/clean to be originals.

Crazy theory: Retired theatrical armourer?
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Old 9th May 2019, 06:50 AM   #18
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There's nothing obvious in the picture jumping out at me as being illegal. Other than the sheer number of guns, nothing seems extraordinary. Guy really seems to like revolvers and mini-14's. Some of the guns pictured (like the single shot pistol and several single action revolvers) are poorly suited for crime and almost certainly personal recreational guns or collectibles. This might just be a case of a guy with a huge legal gun collection that was also engaged in illegal activities.


The article mentions he was charged for "suspicion of distributing, transporting, importing, selling, or lending an assault weapon", which is a CA state law. The involvement of ATF means it is likely that he is accused of breaking federal gun laws as well, not just CA specific gun laws, and there is no assault weapons law on the federal level anymore. I'm guessing that federal charges are yet to be leveled, but will be coming.

Casebro's guess of making and selling 80% lowers is very plausible and I feel the most likely. Making an 80% is not against the law for personal use (at the federal level), but selling it requires a manufacturers license. California does have strict assault weapons laws, so someone doing this improperly could easily find themselves in hot water with both state and federal law enforcement. I'm not well versed in the CA AWB, but building up an 80% AR and selling it would almost certainly be a violation of both CA and federal law, which could explain the coordinated raid.

I wonder what would happen to the guns if he is convicted. It is easily a collection worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Would the feds be able to seize all guns, even those that haven't been involved in illegal activity? He may be ineligible for possessing firearms if he is convicted, but I imagine he would still have a strong interest in maintaining some ownership, even if it is just long enough to arrange to sell off this substantial amount of valuable property.
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Old 9th May 2019, 07:02 AM   #19
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I don't see how an underground business of that minimal sort could support living at this location. Possibly most of those guns aren't even of the type for illegal modification and sale.

This seems like a super wealthy weirdo who does occasional illegal gun work as a little hobby. The guns have got to be a hobby and not a true supporting business. Maybe we will learn more.

I can't get my mind past the location. His neighbors are all of the Kardashians. Broken down junk vehicles in the driveway. Billionaires all around him. WTF?!
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Old 9th May 2019, 07:54 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Very large high definition photo. This is an eclectic grouping including some older collectibles.

https://cbsla.files.wordpress.com/20...gunslapd12.jpg
Is it picture distortion, or is that actually a really big single-shot hand gun in the foreground?
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Old 9th May 2019, 07:59 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Is it picture distortion, or is that actually a really big single-shot hand gun in the foreground?
Looks to be a Thompson Center Encore, which is chambered in .308 winchester (traditionally a rifle cartridge). Looks like Thompson Center makes both a single shot rifle and pistol version using the same design. Its the same gun, just with our without a shoulder stock.

That thing must kick like a mule when fired. These are bought for pistol hunting or simply for novelty factor.

https://www.tcarms.com/firearms/inte...rfire-firearms
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Old 9th May 2019, 08:42 AM   #22
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The Daily Mail is just awesome.

So longhair gun guy is 57-year-old Girard Damien Saenz. The house ownership is associated with Gordon Getty and Cynthia Beck. Still no clue what is going on with the gun thing.

Originally Posted by Daily Mail
The Bel Air mansion where federal agents found a cache of thousands of guns thought to be worth several million dollars belongs to the mistress with whom oil fortune heir Gordon Getty fathered a secret family.

According to court records, the $7 million, five-bedroom property comprising 8,200 sq-ft belongs to Getty's former mistress Cynthia Beck, whose 14-year-long secret relationship with the wealthy scion was exposed in 1999.

Getty, whose $2 billion fortune makes him one of the world's wealthiest men, conducted the illicit affair with Ms Beck behind his wife Ann's back and fathered three daughters - Alexandra, Nicolette and Kendalle - in the process.

One man was arrested at the scene, 57-year-old Girard Damien Saenz, who was taken to LA County Sheriff's Department with bail set at $50,000. He is thought to own several properties with Beck, according to sources.

The LAPD say they are still working through the enormous weapon and ammunition haul, which ranges from modern firearms to antique Civil War rifles as well as shotguns, handguns and even weapon manufacturing equipment...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-mistress.html
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Old 9th May 2019, 09:32 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I'm amazed at the location. Not something I would associate with Beverly Glen Boulevard. This is a neighborhood of extreme wealth. If you told me that somebody there has a huge gun collection I would expect English shotguns or antique Colts.

Instead it's a huge pile of everyday shooter stuff. Like quantity over quality, though everything appears to be new condition.
The owner evidently had resources and enjoyed collecting firearms - I see a bunch of big-bore single and double action wheelguns - and what appears to be an SfG 44, but there is a .22 caliber semi-auto sold legally in California.

As far as wealthy folks and N.F.A. weapons and devices, many folks would be shocked SHOCKED! at what those folks may collect:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ch...tons-basement/

This guy was local:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Littlefield

He was also a type 10 SOT (Special Occupational Taxpayer) - a licensed manufacturer of destructive devices and the ammunition for them.
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Old 9th May 2019, 09:39 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Thanks....that's very interesting. What a strangely worded guideline. My first (inexpert) impression is that it sounds like it was specifically written to enable this particular subversion of itself.
I think it was worded to allow purchase of replacement parts through the mail without a great deal of firearm commerce red tape.

Way, way back, we used to buy black powder revolvers and switchblades through magazines. Similar deal, they were 'kits' that you effortlessly finished yourself.
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Old 9th May 2019, 09:53 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Thanks....that's very interesting. What a strangely worded guideline. My first (inexpert) impression is that it sounds like it was specifically written to enable this particular subversion of itself.
It's important to note that completing a 80% firearm into a functioning weapon is not itself a violation of federal law, so long as the person doing so doesn't sell or otherwise transfer the weapon to another person. It is lawful for person to manufacture a weapon without a license, be it from raw material or from 80% kits, so long as they do not transfer it to another person and the finished weapon is itself not illegal for other reasons (no homemade machine guns, etc).

Finishing an 80% requires more than just assembly and is defined by the ATF. AR-15 80% lowers require several machining steps. It can be done crudely (with varying success), but to be done right, milling and drilling is required. Machine jigs are available to guide these operations.

The allure of an "off the books" gun is certainly the motivation for many people doing these 80% kits, as they often aren't any cheaper than completed guns, but not all. In some more restrictive states, building your own gun is a way to legally evade certain restrictions, because often the transfer of some guns is prohibited, but not the possession. Building your own avoids the "cannot be sold in X state" gate that is sometimes written into law.
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Old 9th May 2019, 10:01 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
....
He was also a type 10 SOT (Special Occupational Taxpayer) - a licensed manufacturer of destructive devices and the ammunition for them.
Does he have a firearms dealer license? That would pretty much allow him to buy and keep almost anything he wants, whether he sells stuff or not.
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Old 9th May 2019, 10:18 AM   #27
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I wonder how long before he gets them all back?
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Old 9th May 2019, 10:35 AM   #28
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I wonder how many firearms used in mass shootings will be traced back to this guy.

I wonder how many of his firearms will be traced back to the Fast & Furious program.
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Old 9th May 2019, 10:36 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I wonder how long before he gets them all back?
Then he will spend forever putting them back inside their boxes.

https://cdn.abcotvs.com/dip/images/5...vid.jpg?w=1600

There are probably some mint new guns in there which are now damaged because of handling and stacking by the ATF.
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Old 9th May 2019, 10:45 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I wonder how many firearms used in mass shootings will be traced back to this guy.

I wonder how many of his firearms will be traced back to the Fast & Furious program.
I wonder how many of his firearms will be used in the next the Fast & Furious movie.

I wonder if the answer is zero to all three. No, actually I don't.
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Old 9th May 2019, 10:58 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Then he will spend forever putting them back inside their boxes.
....
Chances are he won't get the boxes -- or the related paperwork -- back. They're probably not going to book a cardboard box or warranty card into evidence.
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Old 9th May 2019, 11:06 AM   #32
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But if you take it out of the box it loses all its value! Mooooommm!
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Old 9th May 2019, 11:42 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
The owner evidently had resources and enjoyed collecting firearms - I see a bunch of big-bore single and double action wheelguns - and what appears to be an SfG 44, but there is a .22 caliber semi-auto sold legally in California.

As far as wealthy folks and N.F.A. weapons and devices, many folks would be shocked SHOCKED! at what those folks may collect:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ch...tons-basement/

This guy was local:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Littlefield

He was also a type 10 SOT (Special Occupational Taxpayer) - a licensed manufacturer of destructive devices and the ammunition for them.

What is that blue and yellow abomination?
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Old 9th May 2019, 11:55 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I wonder how long before he gets them all back?
Even if the pieces are all legal, potentially never:

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...un-collection/

Wayne Wright has a serious problem. About eleven years ago, the Vietnam veteran, police officer, and firefighter was the subject of a triumphant LAPD press release about a conquest it had achieved in its war on the private ownership of guns by California residents. The press release is still there on its website for all to behold . . .


Los Angeles: The Los Angeles Police Department aggressively targets suspects involved in the illegal sale of firearms to stop the flow of guns to the streets of Los Angeles.

On September 16, 2004, the Gun Unit, Detective Support Division, working from recently developed intelligence information, conducted an undercover gun buy operation in the Porter Ranch area of Los Angeles. The suspect, Wayne Wright, engaged in an unlawful firearm transaction with an undercover Gun Unit officer. Wright was immediately arrested for the violation and during a subsequent search of his vehicle 11 additional rifles and shotguns were recovered.

Gun Unit Detectives then obtained a search warrant for Wright’s residence in the city of Simi Valley. During the service of the warrant, Gun Unit detectives recovered 376 weapons, including rifles, shotguns, handguns and assault weapons. Many of these guns are the types routinely used in crimes in Los Angeles. Also recovered at Wright ’s residence was a silencer and thousands of rounds of ammunition, including tracer rounds and armor piercing rounds, all of which in California, are felonies to possess.

During 2003, the gun unit seized 348 firearms. Year-to-date in 2004, the Gun Unit has seized 411 firearms. The seizure in this case of 388 total firearms nearly equals that for the first 8 months of 2004 and exceeds the total seizure for 2003.

The suspect, Wayne Wright, is not a licensed gun dealer and the Los Angeles Police Department believes that Wright is actively engaged in unlawful gun trafficking.


ETA - an order from the 9th Circuit:

https://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datasto...0/16-55239.pdf
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Old 9th May 2019, 12:35 PM   #35
SuburbanTurkey
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
What is that blue and yellow abomination?
Looks like a Ruger 10-22 rifle with a very tacky laminate stock.

There's no accounting for taste.
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Old 9th May 2019, 01:25 PM   #36
LTC8K6
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Yeah, Cali could well simply destroy his property even if they have no legal case against him.

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Old 9th May 2019, 01:38 PM   #37
Elagabalus
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Looks like a Ruger 10-22 rifle with a very tacky laminate stock.

There's no accounting for taste.

OK, what's the chartreuse and red abomination right next to it?
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Old 9th May 2019, 01:47 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
OK, what's the chartreuse and red abomination right next to it?
If I see the one you are talking about, that's an AR-15 of some species. The bizarre colors are a fashion thing. I've even seen pink ARs with Barbie or Hello Kitty on them. There really is no accounting for taste.
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Old 9th May 2019, 02:06 PM   #39
William Parcher
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Saenz is an architectural and landscape contractor. He seems to be in business partnership with Beck. The ATF says that he has a valid Federal Firearms License. But the anonymous tip caller said that he is doing things outside of what the license allows. No further details on that yet.

https://heavy.com/news/2019/05/girard-damien-saenz
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Old 10th May 2019, 12:27 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
If I see the one you are talking about, that's an AR-15 of some species. The bizarre colors are a fashion thing. I've even seen pink ARs with Barbie or Hello Kitty on them. There really is no accounting for taste.
It's the lack of taste that makes me smile.
Between those and that absurd hand gun I mentioned earlier they do seem to be a "ooh, look at that weird one, me want!" kind of collector, and I can appreciate that in a strange way...
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