ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 11th May 2019, 10:14 AM   #1
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 24,942
Political Correctness actually goes mad: Danny Baker's chimp tweet

Quote:
The BBC has sacked Danny Baker, saying he showed a "serious error of judgement" over his tweet about the Duke and Duchess of Sussex's baby.

The tweet, which he later deleted but which has been circulated on social media, showed an image of a couple holding hands with a chimpanzee dressed in clothes with the caption: "Royal Baby leaves hospital".
BBC

Why did the BBC sack him for this?

Oh, because it must have been racist. It must have been. When Danny Baker heard that it was how the tweet was interpreted, said that he didn't mean it that way because he doesn't have a diseased mind. Cue a lot of outrage that those who complained must have diseased minds.

The tweet appears here in an article that asserts that intent is not the only thing that matters. (i.e it doesn't matter if he was being deliberately racist)

So, since then, Baker has apologized profusely, but that's no good. By apologizing, you put blood in the water, and now there are several editorials and talking heads saying apologizing is not enough...

What is enough?

Well, the police are on the case now investigating the possibility of hate speech.

Link

This is absurd, in my humble opinion.

First of all, it is absurd to assume that the tweet was obviously racist. Has anyone ever had any reason to consider him racist in the past?



By the way, when Charlotte Royal Baby was born, a zoo in Japan named a monkey after her. Some people in Japan complained that it was disrespectful but the zoo kept the name of the monkey.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 10:17 AM   #2
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 73,343
If he was innocent, he should be fired for stupidity.

Princess Charlotte doesn't have a black grandmother.

As for the "hate speech" investigation, yeah, that may be an over the line reaction.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 11th May 2019 at 10:18 AM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 10:22 AM   #3
Babbylonian
Penultimate Amazing
 
Babbylonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 11,572
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
First of all, it is absurd to assume that the tweet was obviously racist. Has anyone ever had any reason to consider him racist in the past?
You really think it's absurd? Black people have been referred to as various non-human apes for centuries, but it's a total coincidence that the child in question is that of a ridiculously famous woman who has described herself as "half black and half white?"

The absolute best case scenario is that the tweet was the product of someone who is completely ignorant. For an employer's purposes, that's really not much better than being racist.
Babbylonian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 10:25 AM   #4
Planigale
Illuminator
 
Planigale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,021
The BBC is not a normal media organisation. The requirements for neutrality and responsibility are greater than for commercial organisations. That extends to its employees. They should be more media savvy than average. This was clearly bringing his employer into disrepute.

If you are unable to recognise that a representation of a person of African heritage as a 'monkey' is not rehashing a racist stereotype then you certainly need to attend some cultural awareness classes.

Elsewhere there is a thread about a political cartoon being anti-semitic and the cartoonist being 'sacked' from the WP. The racist stereotyping seemed more subtle (Trump wearing a kippah, possibly the Israeli premier wearing a star of david). But in a political cartoon making a political point about controversial politicians. Not representing a mixed race baby as a 'monkey'.

(An example people used to make ape (orang-utan?) noises and throw bananas on the pitch at soccer matches when black players appeared).
Planigale is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 10:31 AM   #5
Planigale
Illuminator
 
Planigale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,021
Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
You really think it's absurd? Black people have been referred to as various non-human apes for centuries, but it's a total coincidence that the child in question is that of a ridiculously famous woman who has described herself as "half black and half white?"

The absolute best case scenario is that the tweet was the product of someone who is completely ignorant. For an employer's purposes, that's really not much better than being racist.
I asume he was either drunk or drugged - he should have just said he was pissed when he posted, was seeking help with his drinking, and because he was pissed failed to realise the racist connotations and would be immediately attending more diversity training. I would then send Alexei Sayle to have a fat bastard to fat bastard conversation with him.
Planigale is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 10:38 AM   #6
Babbylonian
Penultimate Amazing
 
Babbylonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 11,572
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
The BBC is not a normal media organisation. The requirements for neutrality and responsibility are greater than for commercial organisations. That extends to its employees. They should be more media savvy than average. This was clearly bringing his employer into disrepute.
I'd expect that, outside of the Murdoch media empire, just about any Western media outlet would react in the same way.

ETA: To my eyes, the racism inherent in the tweet is pretty obvious. Now, does that mean this dummy is racist? Yeah, but there are degrees, and he may just think that hilarious jokes () can't really be racist.

Last edited by Babbylonian; 11th May 2019 at 10:41 AM.
Babbylonian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 10:41 AM   #7
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 24,942
I think it is silly. The photograph showed two white people walking with a chimp. Obviously one of the white people is supposed to be the “mother” in this situation. It was a dumb joke - not funny - and one that I interpreted as who cares about a royal baby. The “outrage” people are claiming to have had over this has only publicized the tweet in a way it never would have done if the tweet was judged on its merits as humour.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 10:42 AM   #8
Babbylonian
Penultimate Amazing
 
Babbylonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 11,572
You're only right, angrysoba, if there wasn't this little thing called context. The context here is pretty obvious.


ETA: In fact, I don't think it could even be called humorous by anyone without said context.

Last edited by Babbylonian; 11th May 2019 at 10:44 AM.
Babbylonian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 10:44 AM   #9
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 17,451
But the BBC will still have Farage on QT...
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 10:47 AM   #10
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 24,942
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
But the BBC will still have Farage on QT...
And cancel HIGNFY because it would be wrong for the BBC to have the leader of a political party on the telly in a run-up to an election...
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 10:48 AM   #11
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 17,451
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
And cancel HIGNFY because it would be wrong for the BBC to have the leader of a political party on the telly in a run-up to an election...
Someone's clearly got pictures of the DG in a compromising position...

The BBC really has lost any trace of bollocks it ever had over the last few years. It's both saddening and very worrying.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 10:56 AM   #12
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 24,942
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Someone's clearly got pictures of the DG in a compromising position...

The BBC really has lost any trace of bollocks it ever had over the last few years. It's both saddening and very worrying.
HIGNFY even joked that they didn’t get pulled for booking Danny Baker:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/worl...lity-1.3889243
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 11:01 AM   #13
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,763
It was an idiotic tweet with a clear racist reference.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 11:03 AM   #14
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,467
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
If he was innocent, he should be fired for stupidity.

Princess Charlotte doesn't have a black grandmother.

As for the "hate speech" investigation, yeah, that may be an over the line reaction.
^This! Very much this!

The use of ape and monkey images for black people is a very long established racist meme. I cannot believe he did not intend a racist meaning to his use of this image. It would be very clear to anyone with a brain; if he did not intend to do so then his level of stupidity is incredible!

Plus, although I have no particular respect for the royalty, I find it a real jerky move to insult a child in such a demeaning fashion. Go make fun of Prince Charles for his weird ideas- no problem for me. But what did this baby do to deserve being insulted?

Last edited by Giordano; 11th May 2019 at 11:05 AM.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 11:07 AM   #15
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 18,890
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Well, the police are on the case now investigating the possibility of hate speech.
You guys need a first amendment.


There are people in the United States that don't understand that whole "Freedom of Speech" thing, and we've seen a little bit of nibbling around the edges of it, but there's no way the police would be investigating something like that here.


He might still have been fired, which is bad.
Meadmaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 11:07 AM   #16
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 24,942
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
^This! Very much this!

The use of ape and monkey images for black people is a very long established racist meme. I cannot believe he did not intend a racist meaning to his use of this image. It would be very clear to anyone with a brain; if he did not intend to do so then his level of stupidity is incredible!

Plus, although I have no particular respect for the royalty, I find it a real jerky move to insult a child in such a demeaning fashion. Go make fun of Prince Charles for his weird ideas- no problem for me. But what did this baby do to deserve being insulted?
I must have no brain then. I agree it is a “jerky move” to insult the kid though.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 11:09 AM   #17
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 24,942
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
You guys need a first amendment.


There are people in the United States that don't understand that whole "Freedom of Speech" thing, and we've seen a little bit of nibbling around the edges of it, but there's no way the police would be investigating something like that here.


He might still have been fired, which is bad.
Well, funnily enough we did have a Bill of Rights which is where you guys got the idea.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 11:11 AM   #18
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 22,466
Make England Great Again
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 11:22 AM   #19
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 18,890
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Well, funnily enough we did have a Bill of Rights which is where you guys got the idea.
Interesting. I did not know that. I knew that there was a concept of legal rights, that it wasn't an American original idea, but I didn't know that there was an actual Bill of Rights by that name.

However, I'm fairly confident that the Americans took it to an extreme, and we continue to be more firm about it. Even when we have "hate speech" legislation, it only applies either as an aggravating factor to an existing crime (i.e. if you beat someone up, that's one crime. If you beat up a black person, while saying you hate black people, that's a more serious crime) or as speech which is so hateful that it could reasonably be perceived as a threat of a physical attack.

In America, the BBC guy could have said, "That black monkey wench and their little monkey kid are diluting our pure English blood" and he would have been sacked, but there would have been no police investigation.
Meadmaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 11:23 AM   #20
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 17,489
What exactly is the non-racist interpretation of this?
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 11:25 AM   #21
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,467
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I must have no brain then. I agree it is a “jerky move” to insult the kid though.
My comment was directed at Baker, not you. I should have made it more clear that posting the image was a mark of stupidity. Sorry.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 11:31 AM   #22
Cavemonster
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,383
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
What exactly is the non-racist interpretation of this?
This is what I'm wondering. I'm not a follower of Royal gossip so I'm having a hard time what about the baby was being alluded to in this image if not race.
__________________
The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon.
-G.K. CHESTERTON
Cavemonster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 11:33 AM   #23
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 85,675
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
What exactly is the non-racist interpretation of this?
This.

What was the joke meant to be?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 11:37 AM   #24
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 18,890
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
What exactly is the non-racist interpretation of this?
That chimps and monkeys are often used as a caricature of human beings?

I have friends who call their (white) daughter "Monkey". They started it when she was a baby. Now she is six years old, but it has stuck with her. Are we being racist when we call her "Monkey".


Come to think of it, I don't know the child's name. I only ever refer to her as "Monkey".


I think the non-racist version of the comment is that he had forgotten that Meghan Markle was, by some definitions, black. Therefore, it didn't occur to him that he was referring to a black child as a chimp. He just thought he was referring to a child as a chimp, just as my friends do.
Meadmaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 11:41 AM   #25
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,342
The non-racist explanation would be the explanation he gave to the press which seems to be missing from some articles.

I see the guy had a segment on his show called

"Monkeys Dressed As Famous People" where he talked about (and showed? Can't find out) monkeys dressed as famous people.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presente...l-baby-monkey/

Quote:
Responding to the sacking, James O'Brien said on LBC: "He often talks about chimpanzees dressed as famous people without any racial subtext whatsoever.

"Obviously the subtext changes hugely when the gag is applied to a child of ethnic minority. It changes, of course it does, but I don't think that was even close to Danny Baker's tweet when he sent that tweet because he does loads of stuff about monkeys and apes dressed as human beings.
http://maczillaconsulting.weebly.com...ressed-as.html

I don't know of him or the intricacies of UK humor but is the following possible?

Quote:
Once again. Sincere apologies for the stupid unthinking gag pic earlier. Was supposed to be joke about Royals vs circus animals in posh clothes but interpreted as about monkeys & race, so rightly deleted. Royal watching not my forte.
Also, guessing it was my turn in the barrel.

If the guy is a known racist then fine, but if this is a "first offense" then I think people may just be too sensitive, especially if the answer to my question above is yes.

This isn't about the racist aspect for me, it's about the fingerpointing "OMG everyone look at THAT guy" mentality of people these days. It's disturbing.


https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebri...after-15019741

Quote:
"Intent has got to be everything," he added, claiming he had been wanting to make a statement about class with his original tweet.

...

He deleted the tweet and denied it was a reference to new mum Meghan's mixed race heritage, insisting it was a play on Archie's wealth.
__________________
Franklin understands certain kickbacks you obtain unfairly are legal liabilities; however, a risky deed's almost never detrimental despite extra external pressures.

Last edited by mgidm86; 11th May 2019 at 11:43 AM.
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 11:43 AM   #26
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 17,489
There's not a person in the developed world who can claim (nor have it claimed on their behalf) ignorance of "Black people portrayed as apes/monkeys" thing.

And I still didn't get an answer. "Well sometimes people are represented as monkeys" doesn't answer what the joke/point was supposed to be here.

I asked for a reason, not plausible deniability.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 11:45 AM   #27
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 9,199
OK, probably a few things need pointing out for The Outraged™.

Firstly, although I find him about as funny as having your leg amputated without anaesthetic, Baker has in the past been very pointedly and directly anti-racist. When a BNP (i.e. extreme right-wing) councillor got elected where he lives, he said something on-air along the lines of, "Here are all the good things he [the candidate] has said or done," and followed it with 30 seconds of dead air.

Secondly, Baker has said that he tends to Tweet that exact same photograph - of two "posh" people with a chimp - every time he hears that someone royal, rich, posh, or famous has produced a child. Now, I don't know if that is true, or if anyone has checked/tabulated it, but I doubt he'd claim it, if he hadn't at least posted it a few times previously.

Thirdly, and I'm sure a lot of people may find this surprising, but awareness of the Duchess Formerly Known as Meghan Markle being what would be termed mixed race here is simply nowhere near as high in the UK as it is elsewhere, and especially in the United States. It seems like the American media feels the need to mention it in every other story, but the UK media just hasn't and doesn't. I think it's entirely possible that Baker wasn't aware of the fact, and so it never occurred to him that the photo might be interpreted in a way his previous uses of it wouldn't have been. I certainly think that there will be a lot of people in the country who have been surprised by this story, simply because they weren't aware of her heritage, either. As it happens, he's also said that he wasn't actually aware that it was Meghan and Harry specifically who had had a child, because he's not a Royalist.

Depicting a child - any child - as a monkey is not exactly an obscure or rare thing in the UK, and parents and other adults will frequently refers to troublesome offspring as a "cheeky monkey/s"; in fact, it was used in exactly that context in a Peppa Pig DVD Miss Analyst was watching earlier today (several times). Mrs Analyst habitually refers to her younger sister by her childhood nickname of "Monkey."

Last edited by Information Analyst; 11th May 2019 at 11:57 AM.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 11:52 AM   #28
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 22,466
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
What exactly is the non-racist interpretation of this?
There could be a variety of alternative interpretations. But when you ask for "exactly" you are already ruling out any range of possibilities. Only the author himself could give you the exact one.

I could give you possibilities if you would drop the demand for exactness.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 12:06 PM   #29
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 18,890
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
The non-racist explanation would be the explanation he gave to the press which seems to be missing from some articles.

I see the guy had a segment on his show called

"Monkeys Dressed As Famous People" where he talked about (and showed? Can't find out) monkeys dressed as famous people.

Well, given that he frequently talked about monkeys as famous people, the idea that this specific monkey was racist is just ridiculous.
Meadmaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 12:13 PM   #30
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 22,466
We should just have a funeral for Rationality and Reason. Those have died in America and now in Britain too. Upon its death is born a new baby.

The baby is called Everything is Racist.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 12:15 PM   #31
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 18,890
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
We should just have a funeral for Rationality and Reason. Those have died in America and now in Britain too. Upon its death is born a new baby.

The baby is called Everything is Racist.
I think I saw a picture of that baby....uhhh…..never mind.
Meadmaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 12:17 PM   #32
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 16,480
PC has just now gone insane?
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 12:20 PM   #33
Planigale
Illuminator
 
Planigale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,021
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Interesting. I did not know that. I knew that there was a concept of legal rights, that it wasn't an American original idea, but I didn't know that there was an actual Bill of Rights by that name.

However, I'm fairly confident that the Americans took it to an extreme, and we continue to be more firm about it. Even when we have "hate speech" legislation, it only applies either as an aggravating factor to an existing crime (i.e. if you beat someone up, that's one crime. If you beat up a black person, while saying you hate black people, that's a more serious crime) or as speech which is so hateful that it could reasonably be perceived as a threat of a physical attack.

In America, the BBC guy could have said, "That black monkey wench and their little monkey kid are diluting our pure English blood" and he would have been sacked, but there would have been no police investigation.
Only if you are completely ignorant of the family being german (even Phil the Greek is German!).
Planigale is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 12:25 PM   #34
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 18,890
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Only if you are completely ignorant of the family being german (even Phil the Greek is German!).
But....but...the Queen's family name is Windsor, and her husband is named Mountbatten! Those names don't sound at all German. (Yes, I know the story of those names.)
Meadmaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 12:35 PM   #35
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,421
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Only if you are completely ignorant of the family being german (even Phil the Greek is German!).
I always thought he was Danish, but <shrug> I don't really know or greatly care.

Anyway, I am more willing to believe that Danny Baker did not appreciate the racist connotation of what he tweeted (especially if he's tweeted the same photo for the arrival of posh babies before) but once you've spotted it, it cannot be unspotted and a large number of people seem not to give him the benefit of any doubt so he had to go.

One more sacking to add to his collection then. It's not the first time he's been sacked from the radio. It's not even the first time he's been sacked from this station.
Jack by the hedge is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 12:59 PM   #36
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 18,890
Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
I always thought he was Danish, but <shrug> I don't really know or greatly care.

Anyway, I am more willing to believe that Danny Baker did not appreciate the racist connotation of what he tweeted (especially if he's tweeted the same photo for the arrival of posh babies before) but once you've spotted it, it cannot be unspotted and a large number of people seem not to give him the benefit of any doubt so he had to go.

One more sacking to add to his collection then. It's not the first time he's been sacked from the radio. It's not even the first time he's been sacked from this station.
It just seems like mob justice to me. He "had to go" because so many people didn't understand something he said, and rather that saying, "Oh. I see. You constantly make references to royal babies as chimps, so this one is no different? Well then, never mind." Instead of saying that, they say, "You should have known that we would take it wrong, so it's really your fault that we made a mistake. I'm calling the cops."
Meadmaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 01:34 PM   #37
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,562
Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
I always thought he was Danish,

We disclaim any responsibility!
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 01:57 PM   #38
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 17,451
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Thirdly, and I'm sure a lot of people may find this surprising, but awareness of the Duchess Formerly Known as Meghan Markle being what would be termed mixed race here is simply nowhere near as high in the UK as it is elsewhere
I didn't have a clue till this kicked off.

I was called a 'cheeky money' many times as a kid.

PG tips adverts happened.


Just because something is sometimes used by racists it doesn't mean all people using something are being racist. We need some set theory around here.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]

Last edited by 3point14; 11th May 2019 at 01:59 PM.
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 01:58 PM   #39
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 17,489
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
We should just have a funeral for Rationality and Reason. Those have died in America and now in Britain too. Upon its death is born a new baby.
*Dryly* Yes. Not being able to use monkey imagery to refer to black people is the end of Western Civilizations.

I can get thinking that we as a society is being too knee-jerk in response to possible racism. I've certainly have in the past and will in the future roll my eyes at certain cries of racism.

I can't get people acting as if it's that big of a deal.

I can't imagine looking at the world and thinking the one thing that needs fixing RIGHT NOW is "We don't have enough almost but not quite racism."
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 11th May 2019 at 02:05 PM.
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2019, 02:04 PM   #40
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 9,199
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I didn't have a clue till this kicked off.
It was certainly what must have been several months into the unavoidable and heavy reporting on their relationship that I heard, and I was, like, "wait... what? Really?!"

More and more this whole thing is seeming a bit like the South Park episode with the arguments over the town flag, and it becomes clear the kids think it's because showing a person being lynched is wrong, but they never registered the fact it was four white people lynching a black person.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 11th May 2019 at 02:08 PM.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:43 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.