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Old 11th May 2019, 11:20 PM   #81
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Whether or not he is actually racist is a bit irrelevant

He basically just wins the dumbest thing to post of the year award 2019

And for that he probably deserves sacking
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Old 12th May 2019, 06:28 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Comparing people with black skin with monkeys or other apes is one of the most common racist canard out there. It so extremely well known that essentially no one from a western country could act surprised if people interpreted this tweet as an attempt at racist humiliation.
That "reasoning" falls apart if the person doing the tweeting is unaware that the primary "target" has (at most) one black grandparent.
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Old 12th May 2019, 06:43 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Indeed, England, the use of the term "monkey" as a pejorative for "black" is well known and well understood.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-...shire-48093032

https://www.theguardian.com/football...-investigation

https://www.eurosport.com/football/e...98/story.shtml
And there also lots of contexts in which that doesn't apply. Is this baby clothing set racist?
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Old 12th May 2019, 06:49 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
And how well do you know him, exactly?
People who actually live in the UK actually have a pretty good handle on which people in the media have reputations for overt or covert racism. Baker isn't one of them. He's not Bernard Manning. He's not even Jim Davidson.
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Old 12th May 2019, 06:49 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
When this whole thing happened, I just assumed he was making a joke about the performing monkeys that are our royal family.
Well, I didn't know the lady was part black, but then I don't follow the royal family. I have, however, in the past used apes to represent white people whom I didn't like. So if no one had mentioned that it wouldn't have crossed my mind, and I would've agreed with Soba on the issue.

Now, assuming the artist knew about that, that sounds pretty racist, yeah.
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Old 12th May 2019, 06:50 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Dear people who use twitter/social media. Please stop doing the following:

A) referring to other people or their offspring as Ape/monkey/chimp/primate* like.

B) using a hangman's noose in any context.


That is all.


*except for human, of course.
Are reptiles and guillotines ok?
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Old 12th May 2019, 06:51 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, I didn't know the lady was part black, but then I don't follow the royal family. I have, however, in the past used apes to represent white people whom I didn't like. So if no one had mentioned that it wouldn't have crossed my mind, and I would've agreed with Soba on the issue.

Now, assuming the artist knew about that, that sounds pretty racist, yeah.
What artist?
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Old 12th May 2019, 06:53 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
And really, my objection would be "Y'all still give that level of protection to Royals?" before anything else.
People on TV take the piss out of the royals all the time. Frankie Boyle made a joke on national TV about the Queen being so old that her vagina is haunted. The tabloids bitched about it, but he's still on TV.
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Old 12th May 2019, 06:55 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
What artist?
I was under the impression that he put the image together.
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Old 12th May 2019, 06:56 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
And how many of those have made a clumsy tweet, easily taken as racist, right after the Palace has declared war on people spewing racism towards the new mum?
Really? When did that happen? I certainly saw no such thing before this happened, but then I flick past any pages in the newspaper with royal news.
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Old 12th May 2019, 07:13 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
People have been making a huge deal out of the fact that his mother was even partially of non-European descent.
Outside the UK, maybe, but inside the UK, not even remotely so much.
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Old 12th May 2019, 07:30 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I was under the impression that he put the image together.
OK. You were wrong. It was a photo. This one, in fact:

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Old 12th May 2019, 07:35 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Azrael 5 View Post
It's PG gone mad.
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
OK. You were wrong. It was a photo. This one, in fact:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...82e0803baa.png
Indeed. It seems to me much more in the tradition of the PG Tips "comedy", which is why I would be interested in seeing if Danny Baker's claims to this being a go-to joke hold water.

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Old 12th May 2019, 07:39 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Again, I don't know what the appropriate level here is, in England, concerning royalty. And for that matter, I don't know what "media figure" means, exactly.

In the US, this guy would land on his feet as soon as the heat died off. Could be the same for this guy. Now, if they put him on trial, under penalty of anything more than a minor (for him) fine...okay, that's worth objecting to, I'll agree. But if they come back saying "Wee looked at it, he apologized."? It's just a waste of resources on a few royals.

And really, my objection would be "Y'all still give that level of protection to Royals?" before anything else. Getting fired over saying stupid things that directly tie in to my line of work? I expect that.
I really hope he is not being investigated by police for insulting the Royal Family. It ought to be the duty of every citizen to insult the Royal Family and not prosecutable.

My understanding, and I realize I may have been wrong here, is that the tweet is being investigated by police as an example of "hate speech" which is also, in my opinion, a ludicrous interpretation.
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Old 12th May 2019, 07:40 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Really? When did that happen? I certainly saw no such thing before this happened, but then I flick past any pages in the newspaper with royal news.
Originally Posted by Information Analyst
Outside the UK, maybe, but inside the UK, not even remotely so much
If you don't read news items about the totals, how can you state with such confidence what is or isn't talked about?
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Old 12th May 2019, 07:52 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
If you don't read news items about the totals, how can you state with such confidence what is or isn't talked about?
Um, by living in the country in question, and paying attention to what people around you are talking about?
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Old 12th May 2019, 07:56 AM   #97
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I have to admit, it's a cracking distraction from many actual race related issues in the UK.
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Old 12th May 2019, 08:08 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Um, by living in the country in question, and paying attention to what people around you are talking about?
Info analyst was comparing the level of interest in her race inside the UK to outside the UK. And stating that the level of interest was lesser inside.

As someone outside the UK, I have heard exactly zero people in conversation talking about her race. It is entirely within media. If I didn't see any media about royals, then I would not know that people here outside the UK know or care about her racial heritage.
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Old 12th May 2019, 09:12 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
If you don't read news items about the totals, how can you state with such confidence what is or isn't talked about?
I ignore more than I read, but I read enough in passing - and TV news is less avoidable - to know that the British media isn't even as remotely obsessed with Meghan's racial heritage as the US media seems to be. Like I said, even now people are saying on forums - even this very forum - and on social media that they weren't aware of it. The idea that "everyone knows" or that "Baker must have known" is just nonsense.

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Old 12th May 2019, 09:13 AM   #100
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Wait a minute - Princess Markle is black????
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Old 12th May 2019, 09:14 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Um, by living in the country in question, and paying attention to what people around you are talking about?
And I have to say that I have literally never heard anybody talking about Meghan's racial heritage in Real Life™, notwithstanding the fact that I've hardly ever heard anyone talking about her in the first place.
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Old 12th May 2019, 10:18 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
And I have to say that I have literally never heard anybody talking about Meghan's racial heritage in Real Life™, notwithstanding the fact that I've hardly ever heard anyone talking about her in the first place.
I think some Americans assume that racial prejudice works the same way everywhere as it does in the US. It certainly does exist in the UK, but the actual details and the way it manifests are very different. For as start, we don't have a situation where the minority population is descended from slaves who used to work the land where their descendants live. The relationships with the various different minority groups are more varied, and, generally, more recent; mostly arising from links with individual countries that were once part of the British Empire. We don't have a history of keeping track of what percentage black someone is, as slave owners used to do, nor the concern with whether someone with black heritage can 'pass' as white. Major characters in TV dramas are black, without there being any comment on that either in the media or within the drama.

Yes, as I said, there is racism, and some of it can be ugly, but it's much less prevalent than it used to be years ago. And very few people are concerned about Meghan Markle's non-white ancestors.
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Old 12th May 2019, 12:07 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I think some Americans assume that racial prejudice works the same way everywhere as it does in the US. It certainly does exist in the UK, but the actual details and the way it manifests are very different. For as start, we don't have a situation where the minority population is descended from slaves who used to work the land where their descendants live. The relationships with the various different minority groups are more varied, and, generally, more recent; mostly arising from links with individual countries that were once part of the British Empire. We don't have a history of keeping track of what percentage black someone is, as slave owners used to do, nor the concern with whether someone with black heritage can 'pass' as white. Major characters in TV dramas are black, without there being any comment on that either in the media or within the drama.
Not having had to fight a war over abolishing (external) slavery, and never having had legalised segregation probably helps, as well.

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Old 12th May 2019, 12:30 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Outside the UK, maybe, but inside the UK, not even remotely so much.
Maybe not to the point that everyone's talking about it all the time, even in their sleep, but when they made the engagement official pretty much every single British news outlet made note of it at the time and often during subsequent appearances in the news.

Maybe he's an extremely ignorant philistine, completely oblivious to how his image could be interpreted, but that doesn't exactly come off as a good excuse for someone working as a radio personality at a public broadcaster.
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Old 12th May 2019, 12:46 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
OK. You were wrong. It was a photo. This one, in fact:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...82e0803baa.png
I wouldn't have touched that photo with a 10 m. pole if I were on twitter. In fact, even using touched and pole in the same sentence I would avoid!*




*Again, if I were on twitter.
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Old 12th May 2019, 01:48 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Dear people who use twitter/social media. Please stop... FTFY
FTFY
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Old 12th May 2019, 01:57 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Maybe not to the point that everyone's talking about it all the time, even in their sleep, but when they made the engagement official pretty much every single British news outlet made note of it at the time and often during subsequent appearances in the news.
Well, given that I and more than a few people I know certainly missed it at the time, I doubt it was as ubiquitous as you want to claim in retrospect. Maybe it's different for people looking from the outside in, but plenty of people in the UK simply zone out when they hear the Royal family mentioned. They're just not as universally fascinating to us as some foreigners seem to think.

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Old 12th May 2019, 02:07 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Well, given that I and more than a few people I know certainly missed it at the time, I doubt it was as ubiquitous as you want to claim in retrospect. Maybe it's different for people looking from the outside in, but plenty of people in the UK simply zone out when they hear the Royal family mentioned. They're just not as universally fascinating to us as some foreigners seem to think.
Also, even those who heard the information wouldn't accord it the significance it would appear to merit in the US, and so probably wouldn't recall it.
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Old 12th May 2019, 02:18 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post


You'd think it needn't be said.
You'd think so, but it seems it not only needs to be said, but explained.
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Old 12th May 2019, 02:27 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Also, even those who heard the information wouldn't accord it the significance it would appear to merit in the US, and so probably wouldn't recall it.
That, as well.
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Old 12th May 2019, 02:28 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Indeed, England, the use of the term "monkey" as a pejorative for "black" is well known and well understood.
Maybe so, but that's not the only way the word is used, and it's certainly not the first meaning people think of, except in certain contexts. My second grandson is routinely, and affectionately, called 'monkey' by his parents; he isn't black.
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Old 12th May 2019, 03:44 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I think some Americans assume that racial prejudice works the same way everywhere as it does in the US. It certainly does exist in the UK, but the actual details and the way it manifests are very different. For as start, we don't have a situation where the minority population is descended from slaves who used to work the land where their descendants live. The relationships with the various different minority groups are more varied, and, generally, more recent; mostly arising from links with individual countries that were once part of the British Empire. We don't have a history of keeping track of what percentage black someone is, as slave owners used to do, nor the concern with whether someone with black heritage can 'pass' as white. Major characters in TV dramas are black, without there being any comment on that either in the media or within the drama.

Yes, as I said, there is racism, and some of it can be ugly, but it's much less prevalent than it used to be years ago. And very few people are concerned about Meghan Markle's non-white ancestors.
I'm very open to the differences in culture between the US and UK that may underlie issues of race. And I like when possible to defer a certain amount to people who are part of a relevant culture which I am outside of in questions of how something reads in a particular context.

In this case though, we have a few sources for how to read this in UK culture. We have at least the people in this thread, and the BBC. The BBC seemed to feel that both knowledge of Markle's heritage and public knowledge of the significance of racialized images of primates were both significant enough for this to be a fireable offense.

I feel like the BBC is not a bad source for what is known widely in British culture.
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Old 12th May 2019, 04:10 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
That "reasoning" falls apart if the person doing the tweeting is unaware that the primary "target" has (at most) one black grandparent.
It's the royal baby. The mixed race wife of Prince Harry has been in the news for months. Isn't the guy a news guy and a Brit?

I believe we can take "unaware" off the table, or add it to the "how could he be that stupid" list.
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Old 12th May 2019, 04:53 PM   #114
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Yes, this racially obsessed citizen of the US was aware of Meghan being mixed-race after seeing the fuss about Princess Michael wearing her Blackamoor broach in the news. Oh, wait. That was straight from the BBC. 2017.
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Old 12th May 2019, 05:02 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
And I have to say that I have literally never heard anybody talking about Meghan's racial heritage in Real Life™, notwithstanding the fact that I've hardly ever heard anyone talking about her in the first place.
I have to agree with this.

Looking at UK from over here in the southernmost colony, the biggest issue seemed to be that she is.... err.... American!!!!!!!!! Really? OMG? Remember what happened the LAST time a Royal married an American? It was a disaster; the sky will fall, the sun will finally set on the Empire.
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Old 12th May 2019, 05:15 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Wait a minute - Princess Markle is black????
'mixed race' apparently, I only found this out thanks to Danny Baker.
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Old 12th May 2019, 05:43 PM   #117
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People just like to see others suffer under the guise of righteousness.
Just another example. Racism is the new witchcraft.
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Old 12th May 2019, 07:59 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Really? When did that happen? I certainly saw no such thing before this happened, but then I flick past any pages in the newspaper with royal news.
https://www.harpersbazaar.com/celebr...-online-abuse/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-fa...trolls-police/

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/07/u...ntl/index.html
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Old 12th May 2019, 08:18 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I really hope he is not being investigated by police for insulting the Royal Family. It ought to be the duty of every citizen to insult the Royal Family and not prosecutable.

My understanding, and I realize I may have been wrong here, is that the tweet is being investigated by police as an example of "hate speech" which is also, in my opinion, a ludicrous interpretation.
That seems to be how UK law works these days:

https://www.met.police.uk/advice/adv...is-hate-crime/

Quote:
A hate crime is defined as 'Any criminal offence which is perceived by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice based on a person's race or perceived race; religion or perceived religion; sexual orientation or perceived sexual orientation; disability or perceived disability and any crime motivated by hostility or prejudice against a person who is transgender or perceived to be transgender.'
A hate incident is any incident which the victim, or anyone else, thinks is based on someone’s prejudice towards them because of their race, religion, sexual orientation, disability or because they are transgender.


Not all hate incidents will amount to criminal offences, but it is equally important that these are reported and recorded by the police.

Evidence of the hate element is not a requirement. You do not need to personally perceive the incident to be hate related. It would be enough if another person, a witness or even a police officer thought that the incident was hate related.
It is "hate speech" if any perceives that it is hate speech. The intention of the speaker isn't part of the definition. It is enough that "any person" (need not be the victim) perceives that it is motivated by hate.
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Old 12th May 2019, 08:20 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Um, by living in the country in question, and paying attention to what people around you are talking about?
Really? Is that sufficient? Or mightn't one like to get a cross-section? Say, some comments from Lyle on the bus, some from Louise in the tube station, a couple from the boys in the pub, and oh, maybe a television or radio station and the occasional broadsheet?

You're better-informed than to claim that passersby and your immediate circle are actually indicative of the pulse of the nation, surely. And the person in question works for a news-gathering and news-reporting organisation.

At worst, he's a racist. I doubt that. At best, though, he's a lazy clumsy idiot. He's used that pic previously to portray some elusive concept of wealth and posh and all that. I think I get the concept, but it's really not that brilliant or that pointed. I think he just likes the picture and lazily attached it to yet another event in Posh-World.... without thinking. He's surely not unaware of the troll-fest on social media that's surrounded Markle.
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