ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags coming out incidents , coming out issues , transgender incidents , transgender issues

Reply
Old 3rd January 2015, 10:52 AM   #121
Pup
Philosopher
 
Pup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,679
Originally Posted by Caper View Post
It's not a dislike. I don't dislike trans people. I work with a trans-woman (used to be a man) that is really cool and is the only trans person I know personally. But there is not one iota of attraction there. Maybe it's because she looks like she could be a defensive lineman for an NFL team. I know she wants to be seen as a woman.... and after a while it becomes easier to see her that way.... but I wouldn't give up a seat in a lifeboat for the titanic for her.
Note that I said a dislike of transexual mates. That would seem to fit, since you like her as a person but wouldn't want her as a mate. Needless to say, not every man is attracted to every woman, so a sample of one doesn't really mean anything and in that sense it doesn't fit. It needs to be a blanket dislike of the idea of marrying or partnering anyone who's transexual, rather than a dislike of any particular person. There are cis-women I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole, but that's nothing against cis-women.
Pup is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 11:07 AM   #122
Lithrael
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,645
Originally Posted by Pup View Post
True, but that brings up the question: is disliking transexual mates an inborn feeling that is unchangeable? Or is it just an unreasonable prejudice that could be eradicated?

Gay men have a limited pool of potential mates, but no one (well, few people) would say that straight males should be encouraged to take gay mates. However, it doesn't seem unreasonable to tell a squeamish male to just get over himself and accept a female as female, regardless how she was born.

Is a male dislike of transexual mates inborn and unchangeable, or is it one of those prejudices that fade as society changes?
I think there are two factors (which sometimes overlap) of prejudice and personal taste. I think most of the knee-jerk reactionary stuff is mainly down to prejudice and will fade as society changes.

Originally Posted by Pup View Post
Personally, I'm having trouble understanding it, because it wouldn't bother me. I'd be far more concerned about having compatible interests, personalities, likes and dislikes, etc.
Different people look for different things and assign different levels of value to each of those things in relationships. I don't think this is news.

If there's a person who doesn't place a high value on the nuts and bolts of the bumpable uglies, I would expect them to be likely to be happy with a person who meets their other criteria well.

If there's a person who places a high value on 'having parts x y and z to look at and play with' in a partner, I would not expect them to be happy with a person without parts x y and z, and I wouldn't think the person without those parts would actually want to be in a relationship with someone who valued the parts' presence so highly. I can understand maybe wanting to have a go with just a close approximation, and it quickly becomes a matter of taste; one Harley fan might find he is really OK with a Kawasaki, another might just never be satisfied with anything but an actual hog. And I feel that that is OK. Actual personal relationships are one place where I really can't fault anyone for wanting to apply their personal tastes. I'm not aware of many people who get trashed for preferring natural vs cosmetically modified breasts, for example. There might be an element of prejudice (and occasionally an element of 'fake' hate) to that but there's also a clear element of simple personal preference.

That is how I would expect people to feel, outside of the other issue of the prejudicial 'aieeeee' factor. I think most of the hypothetical '90% no' is based on the prejudicial 'aieeeee' factor, including the assumption that constructed female genitals must be a pretty awful approximation (among the subset of people who care a lot about genitals).

I also agree that in practice, many totally average everyday humans are already desired by less than one out of ten other humans, so the numbers need some work.

Last edited by Lithrael; 3rd January 2015 at 11:14 AM.
Lithrael is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 11:11 AM   #123
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by Pup View Post
True, but that brings up the question: is disliking transexual mates an inborn feeling that is unchangeable? Or is it just an unreasonable prejudice that could be eradicated?

Gay men have a limited pool of potential mates, but no one (well, few people) would say that straight males should be encouraged to take gay mates. However, it doesn't seem unreasonable to tell a squeamish male to just get over himself and accept a female as female, regardless how she was born.

Is a male dislike of transexual mates inborn and unchangeable, or is it one of those prejudices that fade as society changes?

Personally, I'm having trouble understanding it, because it wouldn't bother me. I'd be far more concerned about having compatible interests, personalities, likes and dislikes, etc.
EVERYONE has a limited pool of potential mates.
Some men don't like gingers. Some women don't like skinnies. Some people just don't "strike a spark".

I, for one, wish the issue was not, "Hmmm...I don't like it because I don't want to boink it," but focused instead on a person's humanity, regardless of sex, gender, gender rôle, or boinking orientation.

Again, I am not sure the issue is, or should be, encouraging heterosexual men to take homosexual mates. I would rather the issue be more properly framed in terms of not letting heterosexual men enforce their own sexual orientation on others (not letting, in fact, anyone enforce "sex-normativity" upon anyone else).

OTH, why not, "...tell a squeamish person to get over themselves and accept a person as a person regardless of opinions about sex, gender, or gender rôle..."?

As far as "dislike of transsexual mates", why would any reasonable person even boink, much less marry, someone about whom they new so little? Shall we, as a society, get all that way about glass eyes, or burn reconstruction surgery, or mammary augmentation, or neonatal caudoplasty (or circumcision)?


ETA: ninja-ed, capably and succinctly, by Lithrael. That's what I get for fooling around with highlighting...
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze

Last edited by Slowvehicle; 3rd January 2015 at 11:14 AM.
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 11:17 AM   #124
Beanbag
Illuminator
 
Beanbag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,468
Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
Except for their callous disregard of the effect of their actions on the truck driver.
I agree. However, society has made it rather difficult for those people that want to exit it.

Beanbag
__________________
Nothing divides an indivisible nation quite as well as religion.

Know god, no peace.
No god, know peace.

If Jesus is the answer, it must be a real dumb question.
Beanbag is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 11:21 AM   #125
Beanbag
Illuminator
 
Beanbag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,468
Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Her outlook on life was extremely self-centered.
Why not? No one else appeared to give a rat's patootie.

Beanbag
__________________
Nothing divides an indivisible nation quite as well as religion.

Know god, no peace.
No god, know peace.

If Jesus is the answer, it must be a real dumb question.
Beanbag is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 11:29 AM   #126
Lithrael
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,645
Yeah, it seems kind of backwards to point out that a teenage depression suicide has caused pain to an innocent party. It's true but it's not as though a teenage depression suicide is capable of clear rational thought and decision making, I mean it's one of those Q.E.D. type situations.
Lithrael is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 11:30 AM   #127
HenryLee
Muse
 
HenryLee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 753
Originally Posted by Beanbag View Post
I agree. However, society has made it rather difficult for those people that want to exit it.

Beanbag
Robe. Doorknob. Some Assembly Required.
HenryLee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 11:34 AM   #128
Dessi
Species Traitor
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 3,615
Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Originally Posted by Dessi
People are assigned a sex and experience their gender. Sometimes people's day-to-day gender experience does not conform unambiguously with the expectations of their sex assigned at birth, which can be a source of anxiety and distress. This was the case with Leelah.

"Boy pretending to be a girl" is the sort of dangerously uncritical view which kills people. It is neither accurate nor a useful depiction of trans people's experiences or motivations.
It almost sounds like you think one's beliefs could alter reality. If you just wish hard enough...

"Assigned?" Really? By who, God?
The gender of a biological organism is a fact, as close to a demonstrable fact as we have in science.

Isn't the real problem here bound up in "the expectations of their sex?" That's an issue with gender equality, not whether someone is male or female. And those who buy into it by pretending to be something they are not are only furthering the stereotypes.

If I say I "feel like a woman" or "feel like a man inside," I'm pushing my ideas of what a man or woman should be onto a real, physical fact. The same women who decry a stereotype of "gently, caring mother figure" ought to be up in arms here..
It almost sounds if you made a carelessly statement about trans people's motives and day-to-day experience, had your bull **** called out, and are backpeddling in a hurry to change the subject to a discussion about whether trans people further gender stereotypes.

No, I don't hold the view that people can literally change the biological realities of their sex. Very few trans people hold that view either, and are very much aware their biological sex and its immutability. A trans person would reject the view that sex and gender are interchangeable, in the sense that sex is in your genes and gender what you experience, and would certainly reject the essentialist view that someone's biological sex is at relevant to what a "man or woman should be".
__________________
>^.^<

Last edited by Dessi; 3rd January 2015 at 12:17 PM.
Dessi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 11:52 AM   #129
petrov2500
Thinker
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 133
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Im going to get vilified for this, but hundreds of teens kill themselves every week.

For various reasons. Broken relationships, useless parents, friend pressure, being gay

What makes this one special?
Because it can be used to push support for the transgender agenda.
petrov2500 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 12:00 PM   #130
petrov2500
Thinker
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 133
Originally Posted by Caper View Post
It's not a dislike. I don't dislike trans people. I work with a trans-woman (used to be a man) that is really cool and is the only trans person I know personally. But there is not one iota of attraction there. Maybe it's because she looks like she could be a defensive lineman for an NFL team. I know she wants to be seen as a woman.... and after a while it becomes easier to see her that way.... but I wouldn't give up a seat in a lifeboat for the titanic for her.
I would not consider a man who claims to be a woman to be an actual woman. If someone gets transgender surgery, then the situation gets more murky.
petrov2500 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 12:09 PM   #131
marplots
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,167
Originally Posted by Dessi View Post
It almost sounds if you made a carelessly statement about trans people's motives and day-to-day experience, had your bull **** called out, and are backpeddling in a hurry to change the subject to a discussion about whether trans people further gender stereotypes.
Would you say that makes me more of a woman inside or a man? Because, it could be that disingenuousness was more of a female trait, or it could be that aggressive arguing is more of a male trait.

This whole thing is predicated on what we take to be a reasonable norm in psychology. I can perfectly accept that someone might feel they are something they are demonstrably not. Maybe they think they are Jesus "inside," or Napoleon, or a chipmunk or a tree. Their motives don't matter. The strength of their belief doesn't matter. Reality matters.

To what extent should I be compelled to treat their delusion with respect? The dividing line between a harmful delusion and an eccentricity might very well be set at how much the belief interferes with one's daily life. We'd say it was harmful if thinking I was a cat kept me from being employed or meant I wasn't eating a healthy diet (preferring to eat only those birds and mice I could capture myself).

So what are we to say about someone who's delusion leads them to suicide? Is the proper course to try and help them deal with their gender discrepancy or to support them in a "let's pretend" kind of way?

Claiming I am a man who just happens to have a vagina and double-x chromosomes is about as nutty as claiming the number 26 is really an odd number with mis-assigned properties that identify it as even. Neither should fly on a skeptics' forum.
marplots is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 12:17 PM   #132
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by petrov2500 View Post
Because it can be used to push support for the transgender agenda.
Do you actually believe that there is a "transgender agenda"? What support do you offer?
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 12:19 PM   #133
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by petrov2500 View Post
I would not consider a man who claims to be a woman to be an actual woman. If someone gets transgender surgery, then the situation gets more murky.
Might I submit that your "consideration" might, in fact, be the least of her worries?

How, in your opinion,would physical surgery make things "murkier"?
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 12:23 PM   #134
LorenzoValla
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 968
Originally Posted by Caper View Post
The kids last act in life was to scar someone else. I'll remember him/her as I remember school shooters. Who many times suffer from different yet equally emotionally devastating issues that society does not treat properly.
What she did to that driver is wrong and terrible, but it's not the same as a school shooter who consciously decides to harm others. I doubt very much that part of her plan was to inflict pain on the driver. Rather, she probably saw the vehicle as inanimate. All conjecture, of course, but I'll stand by it.
LorenzoValla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 12:47 PM   #135
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Would you say that makes me more of a woman inside or a man? Because, it could be that disingenuousness was more of a female trait, or it could be that aggressive arguing is more of a male trait.
Or, as is the case with any identifiable human behaviour, there is, instead of a simplictic dichotomy, a spectrum; further, a spectrum imperfectly matchable to a spectrum of gendernormative traits (even, arguendo, limiting oneself to the gendernormative ideas of a specific culture, in a specific era).

Originally Posted by marplots View Post
This whole thing is predicated on what we take to be a reasonable norm in psychology.
Say, rather, the degree to which you are willing to impose a prescriptive norm. In your opinion, are there spectra of "male" and "female" behaviours (spectra that overlap), or is there nothing more than a normative dichotomy?

Originally Posted by marplots View Post
I can perfectly accept that someone might feel they are something they are demonstrably not. Maybe they think they are Jesus "inside," or Napoleon, or a chipmunk or a tree. Their motives don't matter. The strength of their belief doesn't matter. Reality matters.
And it is, in fact, possible to demonstrate that one is not a historical figure (unless one has found a way to demonstrate resurrection, or reincarnation); as it is possible to demonstrate that one is not, in fact, a being of a different genus.

Or do you consider the vast gulf and fixed between "male" and "female" within the human species to be of equal breadth and significance as the separation between a hominin and a sciuridae, or between an animal and a plant?

Originally Posted by marplots View Post
To what extent should I be compelled to treat their delusion with respect? The dividing line between a harmful delusion and an eccentricity might very well be set at how much the belief interferes with one's daily life. We'd say it was harmful if thinking I was a cat kept me from being employed or meant I wasn't eating a healthy diet (preferring to eat only those birds and mice I could capture myself).
Again, it depends upon the degree to which you are willing to ignore actual differences to make a point.

Originally Posted by marplots View Post
So what are we to say about someone who's delusion leads them to suicide? Is the proper course to try and help them deal with their gender discrepancy or to support them in a "let's pretend" kind of way?
For a start, one could learn not to trivialize other's problems in judgmental terms. Do you know any transgendered persons? Do you feel that (for instance) the spectrum of sexual orientation is equally based upon "let's pretend"?

Are you truly locked into the idea that sex, gender, gender rôle, and sexual orientation are inextricably dependent?

What do we say about someone whose delusions lead them into prejudice?

Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Claiming I am a man who just happens to have a vagina and double-x chromosomes is about as nutty as claiming the number 26 is really an odd number with mis-assigned properties that identify it as even. Neither should fly on a skeptics' forum.
AH. I see. You do not, in fact, know any transgendered. Perhaps you should see it as a learning opportunity.
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 12:48 PM   #136
Skeptic Tank
Trigger Warning
 
Skeptic Tank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,413
Originally Posted by Dessi View Post
Still not seeing what makes these two comparable. Heterosexual Christian has an irrational prejudice which causes real tangible harm to other people; transwoman is rationally self-interested in preserving a stable relationship, and does so in the least harmful manner possible.
As you can see from other posts in this thread, there are people who think trans people are irrational and harmful to themselves and others, too. The prevalence of such opinions would be much higher out in the general public as compared to this board, too.

So, the point here and the commonality between the two examples is that we shouldn't act in ways which involve other people's lives and futures if it requires that, in order to do so, we need to be dismissive of their feelings and beliefs which we have deemed to be irrational.

Some beliefs in some areas of life can be much more objectively determined to be irrational. What people want for themselves romantically isn't really an area which lends itself to cold hard logic and firm determinations of whether someone's being rational or not. Best to just let people have their preferences and to honor those preferences, at least if we are going to be involved with them directly.

We shouldn't be involved with someone romantically or sexually if we don't at least have enough respect for their desires and their sexuality so as to not hide important information from them which pertains to it.

Don't you think there's something pretty messed up about being in a sexual relationship with someone and knowing there is information about you which, if they became aware of it, would likely enrage them and make them repulsed that they've been intimate with you? (using "you" in the generalized sense here obviously)

I don't see how a relationship can be healthy or mutually respectful if one party is hiding information from the other when they know the other would likely be horrified by that information and want to end the relationship based on it.

I also think a person owes it to themselves and the other person to FIND OUT if that would be their reaction. If it doesn't bother the other person, hooray for both of them and things can continue.

Originally Posted by Dessi View Post
I can promise you that "screwing around with someone else's life choices and sexual existence" is not a motive which remotely factors into a transwoman's decision to go stealth.
The thing about screwing around with other peoples' lives is that a lot of people exist in our society who do it without ever consciously deciding to do it, or without ever being consciously malicious. It tends to be an outgrowth of selfishness and not thinking sufficiently about other people and their feelings.

It does not tend to involve cackling "muhahaha" as lightning flashes around one's castle tower.

Perhaps a comparison example would be a straight cisgendered male stringing along a woman he knows wants to marry him and/or have kids with him, and burning through her youthful, fertile years creating an impression in her mind that they are headed in that direction, when in reality he isn't really interested in that.

He could be "aware" that he isn't interested in that while still maintaining just enough plausible deniability to appease his own conscience by telling himself "well maybe, I mean I'm not sure"

Does he have an obligation to disclose his ambivalence about these matters? Does he have an obligation to really do his level best to soul-search and determine what he wants, so that his partner can have that information ASAP and make her own determination about whether to continue?

Originally Posted by Dessi View Post
One person's transition is not a "big thing" to anyone else. The only demand placed on strangers to accommodate another's transition is politeness and courtesy. Most trans people go about their days being completely invisible and unobtrusive.
Right but when you are getting involved with someone sexually/romantically it would be a big deal that someone had been born with certain genitalia, to a very great number of people.

It seems to me like you think this is on exactly equal footing with informing your sex partners that you had your tonsils removed when you were 8, or something.

I assure you, in the eyes of the vast bulk of our species, this is on a very different level of importance. You don't need to agree with them, but you do need to acknowledge that they feel that way, particularly if you're a trans person looking to get sexually involved with one of them.

Originally Posted by Dessi View Post
Yes, you will get percentages in the high 90s with a carelessly worded polling question like that.
How would you word it differently? Would you word it carefully to achieve a desired result, and avoid certain information being made available to the person being asked the question?

Originally Posted by Dessi View Post
A lot of men have anxiety that they might be attracted to transgender woman, even those are are post-op and conventionally attractive. I don't know what this anxiety is based on, but I can can bet it isn't anything rational.
We are not obligated to be rational in the realm of our sexuality or our personal choices about how to live our lives.

If I want to visit my grandmother's grave every week for the rest of my life because I feel I need to do that in order to have her keep watching over me from heaven (I don't believe in the supernatural, this is just an example) that may indeed be very irrational, and other people in society are welcome to feel it is very irrational and be very dismissive of it.

But there is a very different level of respect and acknowledgement of my irrational, but dearly held beliefs, which I should be able to expect from anyone who intends to become intimately linked with my life.

I can be pretty dismissive about someone's ideas who I'm seeing on a TV show, appearing as an interviewee on 20/20 or something. If I were going to entertain entering an exclusive romantic relationship with said person and therefore cut them off for a long period of time from pursuing other partners, I would say I need to be taking their ideas more seriously than back when I was just an observer. Agree?

Originally Posted by Dessi View Post
If some woman were desirable as a romantic or sexual partner, why would learning that she is trans make her less desirable?
For me? Absolutely.

Originally Posted by Dessi View Post
Would it be acceptable for a transwoman to say that she is sterile, instead of outing herself as trans?
Not to me, it wouldn't.

Originally Posted by Dessi View Post
Sure, why not. But some people's preferences are quite petty and unimportant. I personally prefer women long hair to short hair, but I doubt I would accuse a woman who piqued my interest of "screwing around with my life choices and sexual existence" because she didn't tell me up-front that she wears a wig to cover her alopecia.
That's just the problem I keep coming back to, though. It's pretty arrogant of us to declare that other people's preferences are petty and unimportant when it's someone we are going to be intimate with.

I'm guessing a lot of lesbians would probably be pretty upset if a male used deception to sleep with them under the pretense that they were female. Would you be more inclined to respect their feelings since they're part of the LGBTQ world?

Lastly, I want to thank you for your detailed response and taking the time to write it, as well as the other ones. I appreciate you respectfully engaging with me on this, I know that I'm coming at it from a perspective which is quite different to yours.

There was one point I thought I made that was pretty solid earlier that you didn't respond to, though. If you're willing to here it is again:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Well the problem is that it's quite common for people to get pretty far into a relationship without the subject of kids ever coming up. These days, people will have been together, intimate, and deeply intertwined in their lives (living together, etc.) for a long period before any discussion of kids ever comes up, in many many cases. It may be that neither partner had even given it any thought, but as they age and start to feel "this is the person I want to be with for the rest of my life" a natural outgrowth of those life developments can be that they start thinking they'd like to start a family with that person.
Skeptic Tank is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 01:02 PM   #137
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
At what point is a person required to figure out what you will find abhorrent, or disgusting, or what will make one ineligible to be another's mate?

If one has such standards, is it not, in fact, incumbent upon them to find out if another falls short of those standards, before one engages in intimacy, rather than hope the other will know what to disclose?

Even in something so simple as an STD, is one justified in expecting universal voluntary disclosure?
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 01:06 PM   #138
ThunderChunky
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,456
Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
...and that is the bottom line. Pretending it's a "phase" and "it'll go away" does not work. At the very least, "unconditional love" should support an approach that works. (Even if that approach is different, case-by-case.)
It actually does "go away" in the majority of children. I don't know specifically about 14 year olds (probably a much lower proportion), but in younger children like ages 5-7 their gender atypical behavior tends to go away when they get older. This is not an endorsement of a christian therapy-type approach though.
ThunderChunky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 01:14 PM   #139
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by ThunderChunky View Post
It actually does "go away" in the majority of children. I don't know specifically about 14 year olds (probably a much lower proportion), but in younger children like ages 5-7 their gender atypical behavior tends to go away when they get older. This is not an endorsement of a christian therapy-type approach though.
...right. If only I had said that the approach might have to be different,case-by-case.

OTH, the majority appears to be heteronormative--does that justify treating homosexuality as an abhorrent aberration to be cured?
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 01:14 PM   #140
Ryokan
Insert something funny here
 
Ryokan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Norway
Posts: 10,131
Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Do you actually believe that there is a "transgender agenda"? What support do you offer?
Of course there is. The transgender agenda is to be accepted and treated like everyone else.
Ryokan is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 01:16 PM   #141
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Of course there is. The transgender agenda is to be accepted and treated like everyone else.
Those unfeeling, inhuman monsters!
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 01:17 PM   #142
Cl1mh4224rd
Philosopher
 
Cl1mh4224rd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,778
There are some surprisingly terrible human beings posting in this thread...
Cl1mh4224rd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 01:20 PM   #143
Lithrael
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,645
Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
I'm guessing a lot of lesbians would probably be pretty upset if a male used deception to sleep with them under the pretense that they were female. Would you be more inclined to respect their feelings since they're part of the LGBTQ world?
Questions like this come across as extremely disingenuous. You sound like you're describing a regular guy trying to pass as female just to get in some woman's pants. Yes that would be offensive. But if you are attempting to describe a transgender woman getting in some woman's pants, that sounds a lot less offensive and potentially not offensive at all. Maybe it looks the same to you but it is not the same.

For the record I used to have a lot of these same misgivings but then a friend of mine came out and transitioned and I had a lot fewer (but still some) misgivings, and then I found out another friend was transitioning (and I was indeed initially a little upset that they 'misrepresented' themselves to me) and got over a whole 'nother set of misgivings. And now I feel such misgivings, while understandable, are also ridiculous.
Lithrael is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 01:24 PM   #144
Porpoise of Life
Illuminator
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,940
Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Do you actually believe that there is a "transgender agenda"? What support do you offer?
Also, can we call it the transgenda?
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 01:28 PM   #145
ThunderChunky
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,456
Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
...right. If only I had said that the approach might have to be different,case-by-case.

OTH, the majority appears to be heteronormative--does that justify treating homosexuality as an abhorrent aberration to be cured?
People don't grow out of homosexuality so your comparison is invalid.
ThunderChunky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 01:29 PM   #146
petrov2500
Thinker
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 133
Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Do you actually believe that there is a "transgender agenda"? What support do you offer?
Absolutely. There is a push to allow men who feel they are women to enter women's bathrooms.
petrov2500 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 01:30 PM   #147
petrov2500
Thinker
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 133
Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Might I submit that your "consideration" might, in fact, be the least of her worries?

How, in your opinion,would physical surgery make things "murkier"?
Because this person would have male genes but a somewhat female appearance.
petrov2500 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 01:31 PM   #148
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by petrov2500 View Post
Absolutely. There is a push to allow men who feel they are women to enter women's bathrooms.
Forgive me for having to ask, but are you serious? Is this some sort of attempt at hipster irony?
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 01:32 PM   #149
ThunderChunky
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,456
Originally Posted by Dessi View Post
I wouldn't treat that desire as trivial given the number of men who can and have murdered their partners after learning they were trans. But I think that's driven more by anti-gay/anti-trans prejudice, not so much grounded in a preference for child-bearing partners.
I'm guessing that many more men just dump their parters upon learning this knowledge instead of murdering them. I'm sure a lot of those men get hurt and upset about it and wish they had known before the relationship started. I would agree that a lot of that probably has to do with transphobia, but it doesn't change the hurt feelings that have been caused.

Quote:
If some woman were desirable as a romantic or sexual partner, why would learning that she is trans make her less desirable?
Attraction is highly psychological. I'd wager that if you found out someone was a secret transhater you would immediately be less attracted to them even if they didn't change the way they acted at all. Likewise a lot of men will become less attracted to a women on just the knowledge that they are trans.

Quote:
Sure, why not. But some people's preferences are quite petty and unimportant. I personally prefer women long hair to short hair, but I doubt I would accuse a woman who piqued my interest of "screwing around with my life choices and sexual existence" because she didn't tell me up-front that she wears a wig to cover her alopecia.
Imagine someone committed rape, murder, and cannibalism and then avoided jail on a loophole. Do you think this person has a moral obligation to disclose the information to future partners? If you know something would be important to the person on the other side, it's probably the moral choice to disclose it (at least in a typical relationship).
ThunderChunky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 01:40 PM   #150
Skeptic Tank
Trigger Warning
 
Skeptic Tank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,413
Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
At what point is a person required to figure out what you will find abhorrent, or disgusting, or what will make one ineligible to be another's mate?

If one has such standards, is it not, in fact, incumbent upon them to find out if another falls short of those standards, before one engages in intimacy, rather than hope the other will know what to disclose?

Even in something so simple as an STD, is one justified in expecting universal voluntary disclosure?
Hold on, hold on...

You seem to be acting like it is some weird, fringe, idiosyncratic, hateful prejudice for someone to expect that when they get into a sexual relationship with someone who appears to be of a particular sex, that that person is in fact of that sex, was born of that sex, and is fully biologically that sex complete with the corresponding chromosomes and that one can reasonably assume that reproduction with that person is possible.

I'm sorry, but that is a bedrock part of the normal human experience that cannot just be brushed off as "oh why should I be looking out for someone's weird hang ups?"

Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Do you actually believe that there is a "transgender agenda"? What support do you offer?

Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Of course there is. The transgender agenda is to be accepted and treated like everyone else.
You guys are being tongue in cheek but there's some truth to this. Yes, the "agenda" if we want to call it that, is to get to the point where society acts like someone being born with a penis, later having it surgically removed/converted into an approximation of a vagina, and then going around society representing themselves as female is utterly insignificant, a completely mundane, yawn inducing moment.

So, the agenda is to normalize it. To get to the point where people who would want to be informed before becoming intimately involved with such a person can be dismissed as intolerant, irrational, hateful throwbacks whose feelings on these matters can be blithely dismissed with no moral qualms whatsoever.

We can see that some in this thread are already at that point, and busily encouraging the rest of us to "catch up."

But I contend that it is incredibly immoral to become sexually intimate with someone, or even just romantic (going out on dates, holding hands, talking for hours on the phone) without informing them of this highly unusual, and very likely inflammatory revelation about yourself VERY early on in that process.

It has already been acknowledged in this thread that not doing so puts the transgender person in well known and very real danger of physical violence being done to them when the information does come out at a time the other person perceives to be later than it should have been disclosed. Earlier we discussed a murder case where a guy was serving life for killing a transgender person he had married under the impression she was a born female, back in the 70's.

Are there people in this thread who are going to say, with a straight face, that they think it would be okay to get married to someone without informing them you were born a man, when you know they believe you were born a woman, and when you have every reason to suspect their reaction to that information would be very negative?

The problem with this fervent progressivism is that you guys are driven to such ideological extremes that you turn back and can no longer see normality on the horizon. You become completely detached from the experience of the vast bulk of humanity throughout history and to this day. Regular people become the strange ones, to you.

For most people, this revelation would be a huge deal. And again, as I said earlier, plenty of people don't discuss the issue of having children until very far down the road in a relationship. Plenty of people talk a big game about never wanting kids early on, but they change their tune later into the relationship. How can the policy of "I don't have to tell people about how I was born because they're just ignorant if they care" be reconciled with this reality?

Progressives start from the point of "it would be unfair if there are any differences between people" and they let that ideological "true north" dictate everything they say, think, and believe after that. It would be unfair for there to be differences between races/sexes/individuals/transgenders vs. cisgenders, THEREFORE there are not!

But sometimes an ambassador from reality has to remind you warmhearted, caring people that life is very much unfair and things are very much different from other things. I'm sorry that it's so, but it is so.

There are differences between people and these differences are important.

Last edited by Skeptic Tank; 3rd January 2015 at 01:45 PM.
Skeptic Tank is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 01:41 PM   #151
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by ThunderChunky View Post
People don't grow out of homosexuality so your comparison is invalid.
Astonishing.

Are you actually claiming that sexuality is a dichotomy? A boolean on/off switch set to "homosexual"/"heterosexual"?

Are you actually claiming that no-one experiments with homosexual behaviour, then decides it is not for them?

Are you aware that human sexuality is a matrix, encompassing the range from aggressively sexual to a-sexual on one set of axes, and "homosexual" to "heterosexual" on another set of axes? A bisexual individual is not a "failed" heterosexual, or an "indecisive" homosexual.
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 01:41 PM   #152
petrov2500
Thinker
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 133
Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Of course there is. The transgender agenda is to be accepted and treated like everyone else.
This is a bit misleading. The transgender agenda is to get people to accept that they are the gender they claim to be. It is not simply about equality: I believe they should be treated as equals but I do not accept a man claiming to be a woman is actually a woman and I would not engage in a romantic relationship with such a person.

Transgenderism (along with other delusions of people thinking they are aliens or whatever) is a mental disorder, it does not reflect reality (note that this is not to say that these people should be viewed or treated negatively).
petrov2500 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 01:43 PM   #153
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by petrov2500 View Post
Because this person would have male genes but a somewhat female appearance.
My suggestion to you would be for you, personally, to get better at detecting that of which you disapprove.

If you feel she is "murky", perhaps you ought to investigate a different plaything for your evening's pleasure.
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 01:48 PM   #154
Beanbag
Illuminator
 
Beanbag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,468
Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
There are some surprisingly terrible human beings posting in this thread...
You find them everywhere.

Beanbag
__________________
Nothing divides an indivisible nation quite as well as religion.

Know god, no peace.
No god, know peace.

If Jesus is the answer, it must be a real dumb question.
Beanbag is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 01:48 PM   #155
Pup
Philosopher
 
Pup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,679
Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
I, for one, wish the issue was not, "Hmmm...I don't like it because I don't want to boink it," but focused instead on a person's humanity, regardless of sex, gender, gender rôle, or boinking orientation.
Well, yes, but the question came up specifically about sexual intercourse, so that's what I was replying to.

Quote:
Again, I am not sure the issue is, or should be, encouraging heterosexual men to take homosexual mates. I would rather the issue be more properly framed in terms of not letting heterosexual men enforce their own sexual orientation on others (not letting, in fact, anyone enforce "sex-normativity" upon anyone else).
You didn't think I was seriously suggesting that hetero men take homosexual mates, did you? I introduced that for the silliness of it--of course it's not a solution. The solution is, as you noted, not to let others force their "sex-normativity" on others. Ideally, transexuals would be considered just as much "real" men or women, of their target genders, as gay men and women are considered to have a "real" love for their mates and not just a mental disease. We've just about made it with gay men and women, barring a few hold-out bigots, but from this thread at least, it looks like acceptance of transexuals is far behind.

Quote:
OTH, why not, "...tell a squeamish person to get over themselves and accept a person as a person regardless of opinions about sex, gender, or gender rôle..."?
That would be the ideal, but they're going to argue they have a right to their feelings just as much as any non-normative person. So what's the come-back for that?

Actually, I think this divides up into two issues: what an individual wants for their own mate, which is their business, and what an individual thinks society should be like, as far as people choosing mates. It's one thing to say "I'd be horribly disgusted at becoming romantically involved with a transexual" (which might be their personal taste) and another thing to say, "It's normal and expected for people to be horribly disgusted at becoming romantically involved with a transexual." As we all know, we just came through a time when people claimed it was normal to be disgusted by interracial and gay relationships, even if they weren't involved in them themselves. I'd rather not see that same thing for transexual people.

Last edited by Pup; 3rd January 2015 at 01:49 PM.
Pup is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 01:53 PM   #156
Skeptic Tank
Trigger Warning
 
Skeptic Tank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,413
Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Questions like this come across as extremely disingenuous. You sound like you're describing a regular guy trying to pass as female just to get in some woman's pants. Yes that would be offensive. But if you are attempting to describe a transgender woman getting in some woman's pants, that sounds a lot less offensive and potentially not offensive at all. Maybe it looks the same to you but it is not the same.

For the record I used to have a lot of these same misgivings but then a friend of mine came out and transitioned and I had a lot fewer (but still some) misgivings, and then I found out another friend was transitioning (and I was indeed initially a little upset that they 'misrepresented' themselves to me) and got over a whole 'nother set of misgivings. And now I feel such misgivings, while understandable, are also ridiculous.
From the perspective of most heterosexual males, a transgender entering into a sexual relationship with them would qualify as an instance of a man pretending to be a woman in order to get into their pants.

You might vehemently disagree with their perception of it, and you could probably make some very good arguments until you turned blue in the face about why they were wrong in viewing it that way, but it is how they would view it and it is their body and their life and their choice to make.

Listen and believe, honor their lived experience, and their truth.

And also for the record, I used to be much more "open minded" on this and other similar issues than I am now. We don't all evolve in the same direction ideologically. I used to think progressivism was the "end game" for any thinking person, I am convinced now that it is not. I would no longer call what I was "open minded" as I thought of it then. I'd be more inclined now to think of my former mindset as silly, naive and insufficiently reflective of harsh, unpleasant realities which an adult must face and account for.
Skeptic Tank is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 01:58 PM   #157
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Hold on, hold on...

You seem to be acting like it is some weird, fringe, idiosyncratic, hateful prejudice for someone to expect that when they get into a sexual relationship with someone who appears to be of a particular sex, that that person is in fact of that sex, was born of that sex, and is fully biologically that sex complete with the corresponding chromosomes and that one can reasonably assume that reproduction with that person is possible.

I'm sorry, but that is a bedrock part of the normal human experience that cannot just be brushed off as "oh why should I be looking out for someone's weird hang ups?"

<respectful snip for focus>
The highlighted represent your personal contributions, and are not my words. Your "seem-dar" has failed you.

What I actually said was that if you, personally, have a list of things you, personally, would find disgusting and abhorrent, it is, in fact, up to you, personally, to make such clear to a potential sex-partner before engaging in intimacy.

If there are things that you, personally, would find, in retrospect, to be off-putting, it is up to you, personally, to investigate those possibilities before engaging in intimacy.

BTW, are you, personally, qualified to take and read a karotype, to determine whether the "genes match the form-al wear", as it were?

As far as a "bedrock" of the "normal human experience", what about those of us whose experiences differ? Even when I was actively struggling to "pass", to adopt heternormativity and "fit in", I was much more attracted to the person than the shell.

The bottom line: if you would be disgusted to find out that a potential sex partner had had reassignment surgery, or reconstructive surgery, or was not a virgin, or supported the designated hitter rule; it is up to you to discover such before engaging in intimacy than to expect that others will "know" your standards.
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 01:59 PM   #158
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 5,699
Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
From the perspective of most heterosexual males, a transgender entering into a sexual relationship with them would qualify as an instance of a man pretending to be a woman in order to get into their pants.
Then lets see the facts that led you come to this conclusion, or am i going to assume you are just making stuff up as you go?
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 02:03 PM   #159
Skeptic Tank
Trigger Warning
 
Skeptic Tank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,413
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Then lets see the facts that led you come to this conclusion, or am i going to assume you are just making stuff up as you go?
I freely admit to appealing to common understanding of how human beings are there.

I would love to hear what you believe the percentage of heterosexual, cisgender males who would feel that way is. I'm giving you full green light to conjecture.

Just use your experience of human beings and society as it exists today, and tell me (as vaguely or specifically as you like) how common you think the view I described is among that group?
Skeptic Tank is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2015, 02:05 PM   #160
ThunderChunky
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,456
Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Astonishing.

Are you actually claiming that sexuality is a dichotomy? A boolean on/off switch set to "homosexual"/"heterosexual"?

Are you actually claiming that no-one experiments with homosexual behaviour, then decides it is not for them?

Are you aware that human sexuality is a matrix, encompassing the range from aggressively sexual to a-sexual on one set of axes, and "homosexual" to "heterosexual" on another set of axes? A bisexual individual is not a "failed" heterosexual, or an "indecisive" homosexual.
People don't grow out of bisexuality either. You brought up homosexuality, so that's what I discussed.
ThunderChunky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:22 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.