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Tags Amber Guyger , Dallas incidents , murder cases , police incidents , police misconduct charges , shooting incidents , Texas cases

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Old 6th September 2019, 08:48 AM   #721
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You got me curious, so I checked. Here's the first two cases that came up on my search:

https://theconservativetreehouse.com...ses-to-indict/

https://newsmaven.io/pinacnews/eye-o...Ui9Q0___1p4XA/

Both no-knocks in Texas. Both times occupant shot officers. Both walked away.

Yee hah.
The second one was still charged and convicted.

Quote:
But those charges were reduced during the trial to three counts of aggravated assault on a public official.

Prosecutors argued that Rosas was well aware they were cops because they yelled “police” at some point during the raid.
Strange version of "walked away", but ok. The first one is real, and the charges were dropped. Now if that's a regular occurrence or a one off, I don't know. I'll stand by what I said.
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Old 6th September 2019, 08:50 AM   #722
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Weed in the apartment does not count as evidence?
Kudos on the logic and reason.
The **** are you talking about? Did you read the quoted passage I was responding too? Perhaps spend a moment doing that, then come back. I'll take you just rescinding this comment when you're ready. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
The "mistake of fact" is based upon the reasonableness of the mistake.
Whilst being tired may be a factor- it is not a necessary one to make the argument.
So your claim is that she wasn't tired, she wasn't distracted, she just parked on the wrong floor, walked by multiple floor # signs, went to an apartment that has a bright red doormat that she didn't have, didn't look at the lit up sign next to the door, barged in and started shooting because of that mistake?
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Last edited by plague311; 6th September 2019 at 08:56 AM.
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Old 6th September 2019, 08:54 AM   #723
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I am unaware of any posters in this thread who want her to move to their complex. In fact, Thermal and I have both been clear that she should be locked up as a murderer, even if we are not confident that she will. I think some others have a similar position as it has been roundly derided by some as "having it both ways", rather than just being honest.

Is there anyone in this thread who thinks that she should walk free of any punishment, without any reference to the local laws, just as a matter of how the world would work if they were King?
Impossible to distinguish without consideration of the local laws.

If I were "king" people would not be going around armed thus.

However, if I were KOTW ("king of the world-"-in case I have need to use the term again),
people acting within local laws would not be criminals.

So, yes, based on my current, limited ,understanding of local laws and the circumstances so far made public, she should not be convicted of murder.
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Last edited by Distracted1; 6th September 2019 at 08:58 AM.
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Old 6th September 2019, 08:56 AM   #724
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The second one was still charged and convicted.



Strange version of "walked away", but ok. The first one is real, and the charges were dropped. Now if that's a regular occurrence or a one off, I don't know. I'll stand by what I said.
You're misreading. The charges were lowered, but the jury still found not guilty. Home boy walked free.

Quote:
After two hours of deliberations, the jury found him not guilty, according to the Corpus Christi Caller-Times.
Stand by what you like.
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Old 6th September 2019, 08:56 AM   #725
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
If you have never once in this thread defended the "mistake of fact", then I will absolutely apologize. I'll dig through the thread, since I've got some time today, just for S's and G's. The mistake of fact premise is based on her being tired, and having a long day at work of at least 16 hours.







He shouldn't have ******* had to respond to any commands. She also never said, "Police Officer", and this also is counter to what you're claiming. He can't have been a threat if he were stoned off his ass, and had delayed movement as you implied.



Also, per this article, I don't think her defense is going to work all that well. It was actually the Grand Jury that upgraded the charges in this case, not the DA.







I would bet that there is something we're missing.
I doubt it.

At some point the "mistake of fact" has to break down, I suspect like me they would consider the mistake of fact only gets her to the wrong apartment. That's the point when it breaks down, after that point she makes a decision to kill someone, she has been trained to make those decisions, she wears an active firearm so she can make that decision, she is now doing what she has been trained to do. It is much worse for her than a non police officer who just likes wearing a lethal weapon around town.and decides to kill someone. She has no grounds to claim she made a mistake when she decided to kill Jean, that she didn't know what she was doing.
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Old 6th September 2019, 08:57 AM   #726
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The **** are you talking about? Did you read the quoted passage I was responding too? Perhaps spend a moment doing that, then come back. I'll take you just rescinding this comment when you're ready. Thanks.



So your claim is that she wasn't tired, she wasn't distracted, she just parked on the wrong floor, walked by multiple floor # signs, went to an apartment that has a bright red doormat that she didn't have, didn't look at the lit up sign next to the door, barged in and started shooting because of that mistake?
"So", your claim is that she went to Mr. Jeans' apartment, got past his locked door, and shot him with full awareness of where she was and who she was killing?
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Old 6th September 2019, 08:59 AM   #727
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You're misreading. The charges were lowered, but the jury still found not guilty. Home boy walked free.



Stand by what you like.
I was misreading, I thought you meant they didn't get charged. Which in the first case was the case, the second wasn't.
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Old 6th September 2019, 09:24 AM   #728
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Side issue: The story about jury selection says the defense has requested a change of venue. If the judge was inclined to grant it, would the defense have anything to say about the new location, or would it be limited to a certain distance from Dallas? I recall some speculation about how the defense would like to move the trial to a small town, where the jurors would be more likely to be white and pro-cop. On the other hand, if it gets moved to Austin or even Houston, Guyger could be worse off.
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Old 6th September 2019, 09:27 AM   #729
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The whole "Change of venue" thing seems like a quaint relic in a post-information age world.
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Old 6th September 2019, 09:28 AM   #730
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Side issue: The story about jury selection says the defense has requested a change of venue. If the judge was inclined to grant it, would the defense have anything to say about the new location, or would it be limited to a certain distance from Dallas? I recall some speculation about how the defense would like to move the trial to a small town, where the jurors would be more likely to be white and pro-cop. On the other hand, if it gets moved to Austin or even Houston, Guyger could be worse off.
That's a good question, they wanted it moved to a different county but same judicial district:

Quote:
The defense team asked that the trial be moved to another court in the same judicial district in which Dallas County is located, specifically to one of the following counties: Collin, Grayson, Kaufman, Ellis, Rockwall or Fannin.
Would the prosecutor and judge remain on the case?
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Old 6th September 2019, 10:05 AM   #731
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
So, yes, based on my current, limited ,understanding of local laws and the circumstances so far made public, she should not be convicted of murder.
Should she face any lesser charges?
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Old 6th September 2019, 10:07 AM   #732
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
That's a good question, they wanted it moved to a different county but same judicial district:
Off the top of my head: I'm not familiar with all of those counties, but the ones I am familiar with are far more white than Dallas County.
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Old 6th September 2019, 10:17 AM   #733
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
"So", your claim is that she went to Mr. Jeans' apartment, got past his locked door, and shot him with full awareness of where she was and who she was killing?
Nope, I don't know what I think. I know that her version of events don't add up, and I know that the Grand Jury was faced with giving her a charge of manslaughter and decided to up it to murder after they had seen the evidence.
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Old 6th September 2019, 10:48 AM   #734
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Should she face any lesser charges?
Don't know, but I don't see how she should. If one accepts that an act based upon a reasonable mistake is exculpatory. And that the act she committed would have been legal had she not been mistaken, (Which I do so far)It seems to me she is absent criminality.

In my limited understanding of the legal system, that is one of the basis for the existence of a separate civil court.
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Old 6th September 2019, 10:55 AM   #735
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Don't know, but I don't see how she should. If one accepts that an act based upon a reasonable mistake is exculpatory. And that the act she committed would have been legal had she not been mistaken, (Which I do so far)It seems to me she is absent criminality.

In my limited understanding of the legal system, that is one of the basis for the existence of a separate civil court.
Why the hell should she? How does "Mistake of fact" get her out of one charge but not another?

And no I don't want another lamb bleating "But I'm just saying what the jury is gonna do" out of you.

If she being "mistaken" gets her out of murder/manslaughter/whatever where do you possibly argue from that she should be charged with anything else?
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Old 6th September 2019, 10:55 AM   #736
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Don't know, but I don't see how she should. If one accepts that an act based upon a reasonable mistake is exculpatory. And that the act she committed would have been legal had she not been mistaken, (Which I do so far)It seems to me she is absent criminality.

In my limited understanding of the legal system, that is one of the basis for the existence of a separate civil court.
But if you are the KOTW, and you actually make the laws, even on the fly:

Should what she did be punishable, or excusable and **** Jean and his bad luck?
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Old 6th September 2019, 10:58 AM   #737
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The whole "Change of venue" thing seems like a quaint relic in a post-information age world.
Truth. I wonder when the first challenge will come that an accused cannot receive a fair trial, except by bumpkins cut off from the outside world?
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Old 6th September 2019, 11:00 AM   #738
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Truth. I wonder when the first challenge will come that an accused cannot receive a fair trial, except by bumpkins cut off from the outside world?
Gut feeling? Long term (probably very long term but I wouldn't be surprised if it sneaks up on us sooner then we think) that or something like will be what finally causes either an abandonment or a massive restructuring of the very idea of a "jury trial."
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Old 6th September 2019, 11:06 AM   #739
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Don't know, but I don't see how she should. If one accepts that an act based upon a reasonable mistake is exculpatory.
Not if. Do you accept that an act based upon a reasonable mistake is completely exculpatory.

Quote:
And that the act she committed would have been legal had she not been mistaken, (Which I do so far)It seems to me she is absent criminality.
My question is should that act have been legal had she not been mistaken?

By the way, Texas does have this:

Quote:
Sec. 19.04. MANSLAUGHTER. (a) A person commits an offense if he recklessly causes the death of an individual.
Which could apply even if you assume her initial problems with location were reasonable.
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Old 6th September 2019, 11:08 AM   #740
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
But if you are the KOTW, and you actually make the laws, even on the fly:

Should what she did be punishable, or excusable and **** Jean and his bad luck?
Were I KOTW, she would be acting in a criminal manner by being armed while not on duty, and for killing someone when she had a reasonable option not to.

ETA. She would, however, be able to be excused on charges of trespassing and B&E due to her mistaking where she was.
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Old 6th September 2019, 11:09 AM   #741
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Gut feeling? Long term (probably very long term but I wouldn't be surprised if it sneaks up on us sooner then we think) that or something like will be what finally causes either an abandonment or a massive restructuring of the very idea of a "jury trial."
Professional jurers, maybe with formal testing to demonstrate court approved objectivity?
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Old 6th September 2019, 11:10 AM   #742
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Were I KOTW, she would be acting in a criminal manner by being armed while not on duty, and for killing someone when she had a reasonable option not to.

ETA. She would, however, be able to be excused on charges of trespassing and B&E due to her mistaking where she was.
Pretty much agreed, then
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Old 6th September 2019, 11:17 AM   #743
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Professional jurers, maybe with formal testing to demonstrate court approved objectivity?
Maybe, but the whole idea of a "Professional juror" makes me queasy.

Again speaking totally from a gut feeling, more of just some sanity imposed on jurors, less ability to just go "We're going to award this man 90 gazillion dollars because we got convinced by a legal used car salesman that weed killers did it."

But I could be mistaking what I want to happen with what I think will happen.
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Old 6th September 2019, 11:18 AM   #744
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Not if. Do you accept that an act based upon a reasonable mistake is completely exculpatory.



My question is should that act have been legal had she not been mistaken?

By the way, Texas does have this:



Which could apply even if you assume her initial problems with location were reasonable.
It is exculpatory IMO if the act is a legal one had the perpetrator not been in error.
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Old 6th September 2019, 11:19 AM   #745
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Dr. Keith, I think the Manslaughter charge was the appropriate charge.

Because of the potential scandal Dallas is facing with regards to overtime, I've been thinking that they may have intentionally over-charged this, hoping to induce a plea to a lesser charge.

The problem with the murder charge, is that they have to show intent, that she was intending to shoot a stranger in his own apartment. When her actual intent, the defense will present to the jury was to protect herself in what she thought was her own apartment.

What will they say her motive was, if she intended to kill Botham Jean in his own apartment? From reports they do not know each other. They won't be able to show intent to murder someone, only intent to protect her person or property.
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Old 6th September 2019, 11:21 AM   #746
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Pretty much agreed, then
Pretty much. With a caveat.
I don't see her as villainous. Just as an ordinary person who screwed up in an extraordinary way.
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Old 6th September 2019, 11:25 AM   #747
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
From reports they do not know each other. They won't be able to show intent to murder someone, only intent to protect her person or property.
That's not at all true. There were reports they had run-ins previous to this over his music, and there are also reports that people heard her knocking on his door and screaming for it to be opened.
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Old 6th September 2019, 11:29 AM   #748
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
That's not at all true. There were reports they had run-ins previous to this over his music, and there are also reports that people heard her knocking on his door and screaming for it to be opened.
I'm skeptical, not dismissive mind you just skeptical, of stuff like that. Second hand eye witness stuff is notoriously unreliable.

It should be looked into for sure, but I'm not ready to start re-writing the whole narrative to account for a history between the two just yet.

A history between Jean and Guyger would make this a lot weirder.
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Old 6th September 2019, 11:31 AM   #749
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Pretty much. With a caveat.
I don't see her as villainous. Just as an ordinary person who screwed up in an extraordinary way.
Might disagree on that. Guyger was ready to kill, and was her first instinct. Time bomb on the hoof, IMO.

I doubt ordinary people are so inclined to kill at the drop of a hat. Even cops. It takes a ...special...kind of person to go from fumbling with keys to executioner without so much as a cursory glance around to make sure you know what you are doing
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Old 6th September 2019, 11:33 AM   #750
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Dr. Keith, I think the Manslaughter charge was the appropriate charge.

Because of the potential scandal Dallas is facing with regards to overtime, I've been thinking that they may have intentionally over-charged this, hoping to induce a plea to a lesser charge.
IIRC the DA did not go the Grand Jury with a murder charge. The Grand Jury is the one who moved it up to murder.

Quote:
The problem with the murder charge, is that they have to show intent, that she was intending to shoot a stranger in his own apartment. When her actual intent, the defense will present to the jury was to protect herself in what she thought was her own apartment.
I'm not a criminal attorney, but the language is pretty clear:

Quote:
Sec. 19.02. MURDER.
<snip definitions>
(b) A person commits an offense if he:
(1) intentionally or knowingly causes the death of an individual;
Knowingly does not require intent. And self defense is a defense to a charge to murder. So, I think murder fits, and she has to prove a self defense claim. I think that should be difficult in this situation since she was the intruder, not him.

Quote:
What will they say her motive was, if she intended to kill Botham Jean in his own apartment? From reports they do not know each other. They won't be able to show intent to murder someone, only intent to protect her person or property.
I don't think intent is needed, only knowingly. She pointed the gun at a man in his own apartment and then pulled the trigger knowing that it would kill him. Maybe she can mount a defense, but I sure as hell hope not.
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Last edited by Dr. Keith; 6th September 2019 at 11:35 AM.
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:30 PM   #751
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm skeptical, not dismissive mind you just skeptical, of stuff like that. Second hand eye witness stuff is notoriously unreliable.

It should be looked into for sure, but I'm not ready to start re-writing the whole narrative to account for a history between the two just yet.

A history between Jean and Guyger would make this a lot weirder.
I wholeheartedly agree with this. I only brought up because Drewbot spoke definitively. I think it's in question as well, for sure. The only part that would make it even kind of plausible for me is:
  • Guyger gets done with work
  • Parks on the 4th floor because she intended to talk to Jean about his music knowing that she had a long day at work, it was later and night and wanted to ensure a good nights sleep
  • She goes to his door, knocks on it a few times, and so on...

I have absolutely nothing at all to back up any of that, just an alternate scenario.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
...to go from fumbling with keys to executioner without so much as a cursory glance around to make sure you know what you are doing
I have the gift of hindsight, but the moment the I noticed the door was open I would have taken in my surroundings. The floor mat, the light, etc.

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I don't think intent is needed, only knowingly. She pointed the gun at a man in his own apartment and then pulled the trigger knowing that it would kill him. Maybe she can mount a defense, but I sure as hell hope not.
Which is why I agreed with Darat with regards to the mistake of fact getting her to the door. As he said, once she's there she deliberately took each step from that point forward. Even her mistake of fact to get her to the door doesn't allow her to enter the home without permission.
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Old 6th September 2019, 01:30 PM   #752
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
That's not at all true. There were reports they had run-ins previous to this over his music, and there are also reports that people heard her knocking on his door and screaming for it to be opened.
No.

Originally Posted by Dallas Morning News
Attorney Lee Merritt said there hadn't been a noise complaint against Jean in the two months Guyger had lived in the building.
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crim...-amber-guyger/
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Old 6th September 2019, 01:42 PM   #753
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Dr. Keith, I think the Manslaughter charge was the appropriate charge.

Because of the potential scandal Dallas is facing with regards to overtime, I've been thinking that they may have intentionally over-charged this, hoping to induce a plea to a lesser charge.
....
This has been discussed previously. "Manslaughter" in Texas does not mean what it may mean in other states. Deliberately pointing a gun at someone and shooting at him twice, striking him once and killing him, is not a negligent or reckless act. It is murder.
https://www.medlinfirm.com/blog/the-...rder-in-texas/
https://www.versustexas.com/felony/manslaughter/
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Old 6th September 2019, 02:34 PM   #754
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
IIRC the DA did not go the Grand Jury with a murder charge. The Grand Jury is the one who moved it up to murder.
I think the DA did go after a murder indictment. It was the Rangers that issued the arrest warrant for manslaughter. It was reported that DA Johnson had some heated discussions about that charge. Newly elected DA Creuzot specifically said the charge should be murder, not manslaughter.

DA Johnson kept a pretty tight lip. So we don't know for sure. But it sure sounds like she went in asking the grand jury for a murder indictment.
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Old 6th September 2019, 02:37 PM   #755
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
I think the DA did go after a murder indictment. It was the Rangers that issued the arrest warrant for manslaughter. It was reported that DA Johnson had some heated discussions about that charge. Newly elected DA Creuzot specifically said the charge should be murder, not manslaughter.

DA Johnson kept a pretty tight lip. So we don't know for sure. But it sure sounds like she went in asking the grand jury for a murder indictment.
Thanks for the correction.

I still don't think they were over-charging to get a plea deal. This was always going to go to a jury.
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Old 6th September 2019, 02:46 PM   #756
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
That's not at all true. There were reports they had run-ins previous to this over his music, and there are also reports that people heard her knocking on his door and screaming for it to be opened.
Those claims came from Merritt, the lawyer for Jean's family. Merritt has backed off those claims.

There was a complaint against Jean, but it was not about music or noise. It was about the smell of marijuana coming from his apartment. It was almost certainly not made by Guyger. The apartment manager visited Jean that day and determined that the smell was not coming from his apartment. (I have guessed that this is when the door did not properly close.)

The "Let me in!" claim is largely unfounded. The witness was not likely in a position to hear that. The witness reported this to Merritt, not the police. Other witness closer did not report haring anybody say that.

Merritt backed off and said there was no music or noise complaint by Guyger. There was no relationship or connection between Guyger and Jean.

In the civil suit filed by Merritt, there is no mention of either of these claims. There is no mention that Guyger and Jean knew each other or had any connection.
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Old 6th September 2019, 03:00 PM   #757
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Which could apply even if you assume her initial problems with location were reasonable.
Manslaughter would not apply. Manslaughter requires recklessness. Recklessness means that someone knew that they were doing something wrong where someone could get killed.

But criminally negligent homicide could apply. Negligence means that someone did not know but ought to have known that they were doing something wrong where someone could get killed.
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Old 6th September 2019, 03:14 PM   #758
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
Manslaughter would not apply. Manslaughter requires recklessness. Recklessness means that someone knew that they were doing something wrong where someone could get killed.

But criminally negligent homicide could apply. Negligence means that someone did not know but ought to have known that they were doing something wrong where someone could get killed.

Why?

Quote:
Under section 19.05, Criminally Negligent Homicide is the death of a person caused by another person’s extremely careless behavior. Criminally Negligent Homicide is not an intentional killing, but rather a person dying because of another person’s irresponsible behavior.
https://www.bhwlawfirm.com/texas-pen...inal-homicide/

Sounds like that would be something like, say, cleaning a loaded gun while drunk. Pointing a gun at someone and shooting at him twice is surely intentional.
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Old 6th September 2019, 03:32 PM   #759
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
Manslaughter would not apply. Manslaughter requires recklessness. Recklessness means that someone knew that they were doing something wrong where someone could get killed.

But criminally negligent homicide could apply. Negligence means that someone did not know but ought to have known that they were doing something wrong where someone could get killed.
Disagree with this.

Reckless means that some doesn't take into account/care about consequence of actions and I think she qualifies quite well.
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Old 6th September 2019, 03:42 PM   #760
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Disagree with this.

Reckless means that some doesn't take into account/care about consequence of actions and I think she qualifies quite well.
Your definition applies to both recklessness and negligence. But there is a legal difference between the two.

"A person acts recklessly, or is reckless, with respect to circumstances surrounding his conduct or the result of his conduct when he is aware of but consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the circumstances exist or the result will occur."

This would mean the prosecution would have to prove that Guyger was "aware" of the risk or that she could end up shooting an innocent person, but did it anyway. If Guyger was not aware of the circumstances, she wasn't reckless.

"A person acts with criminal negligence, or is criminally negligent, with respect to circumstances surrounding his conduct or the result of his conduct when he ought to be aware of a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the circumstances exist or the result will occur."

The only difference in the definition is between "is" and "ought to be". The prosecution would only have to argue that Guyger should have been aware that by walking around with a gun at the ready while completely exhausted and not paying attention to anything that she was creating a substantial and unjustifiable risk that she could kill an innocent person.
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