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6th May 2019, 07:44 AM | #521 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Aaaaahhhh, there it is. You've strapped on your six-guns and have the cheroot dangling from your lips. Metaphorically, of course. We know you are not going to do a damn thing. But you openly support vigilantism, which is that all-important first step. Others have expanded nazism to include Islamaphobes, neo-fascists and others.
Now you have rationalized collateral damage. Your next slips down this slope are a walk in the park. So much easier to get people to abandon their principles than I would have thought. The cookies are over there, on the card table. Darat and others are tougher. They stick to their principles, even when it hurts to do so. Not you, though. You rolled over easily.
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But you don't want to bother. They are just collateral damage for your vigilantism, as you say. Why, what could go wrong? Welcome. |
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6th May 2019, 07:55 AM | #522 |
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Not true, except in the most pedantic of senses. To qualify as assault, there are conditions to be met. But we've swaggered past those little law things, haven't we?
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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6th May 2019, 07:55 AM | #523 |
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Of course they are also usually tied up in advocating the ideology involved as well. How involved in the whole political agenda and scene does one have to be to count as a real nazi? The shooters are in the same chat rooms, and message boards as these edge lords so really they are all edgelords unless they are actively shooting someone right now.
Will some of these Nazis grow out it? Sure, of course more will likely just get better at hiding their white supremacy and express it in much more mainstream contexts like Tucker Carlson or Trump. Then of course you can still say "sure they are tweeting out nazi propaganda, using nazi talking points, but that doesn't make them nazis or nazi sympathizers!" Even Hitler wasn't really a nazi until WWII started, before that he was trying to deport the jews, but of course no one wanted them and we happily stood up to this non nazi saying "no we will not take your jews, they are your problem you find a solution to them" America was always far happier to see some minority group dead than let them into the country after all. |
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6th May 2019, 08:06 AM | #524 |
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My empathy for halfway Nazis is also pretty limited. The nature of these movements seems to be deeply rooted in internet nihilism and trolling culture. It's all one big joke meant to be shocking, except when it isn't a joke and someone memes their way to a massacre. At some point, people who are just s***posting should be expected to realize they are culpable for creating a toxic ideology of violence. The "it's just a prank" defense does not work here.
I think Pizzagate is an instructive example of this kind of stuff. My impression is that a large majority of the alt-right weirdos spreading that conspiracy really didn't believe it to be true. There's really no way to measure this definitely, but I suspect it was largely just internet trolls spreading havoc for the sake of havoc. When some impressionable idiot takes it seriously and barges into a pizza shop with a rifle, that's just a bonus. The tip of the spear of these nationalist movements are people who sincerely believe all the rhetoric, but there is a large reserve of nihilist edgelords that are filling out the ranks to make it truly dangerous. It is increasingly clear that the boundary between true ideologue and nihilist memer is so permeable it may as well not exist. |
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6th May 2019, 08:08 AM | #525 |
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And you have now not only demonstrated intellectual dishonesty, but egregious flat-out dishonesty. Let me know when you are capable of addressing the point, and not some ridiculous strawman.
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This is beyond dishonest, and veers into propaganda. Especially considering that these murders went out of their way to associate themselves with Nazis, real or not. I suggest you read the link below, and if you don't find yourself growing a bit uncomfortable with the tack you have taken here, there's no hope for you. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/daily...b0ce3b344492f2 |
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6th May 2019, 08:16 AM | #526 |
Penultimate Amazing
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This is a reasoned position, and I respect it, while disagreeing. The problem is that it too easily slips over to vigilante response to nazism and rationalizes collateral damage.
Recall the blasting that antifa received when they jumped a guy who was not a nationalist, but was carrying an American flag. This whole line of rationalizing goes downhill very fast. What will the edgelords do when things escalate? I would think a mass mutiny, rather than mass support. Such is the fickleness of the poser, IME. But if they are made to be the full-fledged enemy, defensiveness may push them to full commitment. The trick is to ridicule them into oblivion without crossing legal lines and giving them credibility. |
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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6th May 2019, 08:35 AM | #527 |
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Why don't you try honest discussion instead of handwaving and insults? Might be a refreshing change.
You are quite openly advocating vigilantism and rationalizing collateral damage. You try to rationalize it as being 'only a little bit', but that's what the underlying theme of the thread is about. Is a little bit of illegal activity okay in the special case of nazis? Where do we draw the line, or do we bother with one? And of course, who is responsible for the escalation, and when things sometimes (inevitably) go wrong? It's easy, as you do, to sit back and say it's ok to assault some people, and it's okay if lessers get thrown in the basket and treated like the worst offenders. How does your philosophy work in the real world? A kid thinks it's super cool to throw an egg or milkshake at a nazi type. Totally rad, dude, I saw it happen on YouTube! now the guy he picks is a scrapper, and works him over. As we saw upthread, it would legally be considered self defense for the nazi. Not fair, agreed, but that's the law. Let's say the kid gets actually hurt. How good do you feel about your cowboy swagger? Speculation, yes, but that's where your thinking leads. The good guys comply with law and work it in other viable ways. You are advocating initiating illegal assault, petty though it may be. You further advocate not being concerned with collateral damage or even having responsibility for correctly identifying your target. These are not 'dishonest strawmen'; they are exactly what you claim. Own it. |
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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6th May 2019, 09:11 AM | #528 |
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I don't speak for others in this thread, but I don't see the egging or other more serious violence as acceptable, regardless of the target. My personal gratification in seeing unpleasant things happen to wicked people is not a reflection of good governance. I remain skeptical of the effects these antifa actually achieve by engaging in street violence. I think it is unlikely to dissuade right wing extremism and only work to create an environment where street violence is tolerated. The cities that have been largely taking a "hands off" approach to these brawls have a lot to answer for and are playing with fire that could easily get out of control. These nazis want to fight, but they don't want to go to jail or get killed by the police, so antifa are really giving them a wonderful opportunity to engage in violence without serious repercussion.
I contend that we are currently in a state of escalation and there has been no mutiny. 8chan memes are being directly cited by right wing terrorists. Plausible deniability is growing extremely thin. |
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6th May 2019, 09:16 AM | #529 |
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Nonsense the Christchurch shooter was just a more extreme edgelord taking it to the next level, not a real white supremacist. The use of memes to make people think he was a white supremacist are a dead giveaway. That is why that really can't be counted as a white supremacist terrorist attack but really is just next level internet trolling.
He needs to be properly identified as a edgelord troll not a terrorist. |
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6th May 2019, 09:20 AM | #530 |
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Agreed, in particular the hilited. Whether law enforcement or individuals with eggs, predictable escalation has to be factored.
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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6th May 2019, 09:27 AM | #531 |
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At some point, the difference between a troll terrorist and a real terrorist is one without distinction. Poe's terrorist, so to speak.
A person publishes a manifesto ranting about brown folks invading the white homeland and then goes and kills a bunch of those exact people at a mosque. That's a white supremacist, no matter how many winks or inside jokes he makes. |
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6th May 2019, 09:31 AM | #532 |
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Rule of law is not based on empathy, though. Empathy is good for tempering justice with mercy - another important trait of a healthy society. But that's not what's happening in this thread. Here, lack of empathy is being put forward as the motivation for why both justice and mercy should be set aside.
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6th May 2019, 09:32 AM | #533 |
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6th May 2019, 09:34 AM | #534 |
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Sure it just shows the whole idea of the fake white supremacist is a ruse to pretend it is not as much of a problem as it really is. Though really it is the Trumps and Carlson's bringing white supremacy mainstream who are more of a true threat in general than the ones wearing swastikas.
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6th May 2019, 10:22 AM | #535 |
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Why don't you take your own advice and try honest discussion instead of blatantly disingenuous characterizations like this:
The "lessers that get thrown into the basket" are getting egged. That's not what's happening to the "worst offenders". The worst offenders go to jail, if they don't die in a hail of police bullets or by their own hand first. |
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6th May 2019, 10:39 AM | #536 |
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6th May 2019, 10:50 AM | #537 |
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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6th May 2019, 11:03 AM | #538 |
Orthogonal Vector
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How do you decide someone is a poser vs a "real" nazi? Why is their self identification as a nazi not enough?
Are all true nazi's really Scotsmen or something? Really this sounds a lot like Trumps "good people on both sides" statements about how just because someone is advocating white supremacy and identifying as a white supremacist that is no reason to consider them a white supremacist or racist. |
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6th May 2019, 11:21 AM | #539 |
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And neither am I; because when it comes to standing on a corner or sitting on a website and wearing the iconography and spouting propaganda, the line between a "real" Nazi doing these things and a "poser" doing these things is academic.
And what, again, is your criteria for separating these two? A demonstrated attempt to commit genocide I seem to recall is what you, or at least someone here supporting your argument, evoked - which is something that neither is even theoretically able to actually do until they have established a majority government. They can certainly try their personal best by slaughtering a black church or a synagogue full of Jews; but the historic record of these attempts has been repeatedly brought up to you and you've repeatedly rejected it as not "good enough". In other words, you've established a criteria that is currently impossible to meet even in theory, which you have to know essentially defines Nazis out of modern existence entirely, and yet you continue this bad faith tactic of arguing as if you do accept their existence and are merely upset that we're not being diligent enough to tell them from what you call "posers". When a Nazi does not have a majority government enabling him to commit the atrocities for which the Nazi ideology is so infamous, all he even CAN do, is stand there and wear the symbols and wave a flag and spout propaganda and try to sneak his way into random election wins, just like a "wannabe". The difference is you demand we recognize doesn't even exist. |
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6th May 2019, 03:56 PM | #540 |
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Eggcellent
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6th May 2019, 05:14 PM | #541 |
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6th May 2019, 05:20 PM | #542 |
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Real men don't eat quiche
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6th May 2019, 05:21 PM | #543 |
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There is no Antimemetics Division. |
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6th May 2019, 05:22 PM | #544 |
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6th May 2019, 06:07 PM | #545 |
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6th May 2019, 06:12 PM | #546 |
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There is no Antimemetics Division. |
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6th May 2019, 06:21 PM | #547 |
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6th May 2019, 06:26 PM | #548 |
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6th May 2019, 06:34 PM | #549 |
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6th May 2019, 06:39 PM | #550 |
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Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison was just egged as he left a meeting of the Country Womens' Association (CWA). The Federal Election is two weeks away.
The egg did not break. |
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6th May 2019, 06:51 PM | #551 |
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As much as I don’t like his politics, he is not in the same category as Fraser Anning or others mentioned in this thread. Following that incident, Morrison’s focus of sympathy seemed to be on the disproportionate use of force on the young man who attacked Anning with the egg.
'Full force of the law' should apply to Fraser Anning after egging incident, Morrison says https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-morrison-says I don’t agree with the attack on Morrison and do see how the idea of who makes for a target has potential to blur and spread. It will get dealt with by the law sufficiently and Morrison will soon forget it. |
6th May 2019, 07:10 PM | #552 |
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Maybe the people who think egging is fantastic can sit down together and write up a list of who THEY think should be allowed to be egged and who shouldn't be egged?
I say they as obviously only their opinion counts. We wouldn't want people to get confused and egg the wrong people again like Scott Morrison |
6th May 2019, 07:26 PM | #553 | |||
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Was Scott Morrison injured?
Then meh. However, security rushing to football-tackle the unsuccessful egg-violencer as if she was some kind of would-be assassin waving a loaded pistol around, DID reportedly knock over an elderly woman who as a result had breathing difficulties. That bystander could have been severely injured, the only one injured at all actually, in a scuffle over an egg that in this case didn't even break. And that is why regardless of how useful an emotional argument being able to call egging "violent" and "assault" is, treating it or reacting to it like some kind of dangerous physical threat is a vast overreaction. The "assailant" could easily have been divested of her instruments of criminal violence and calmly escorted from the room without incident or disruption, or real danger to other people present. Listen to how this politician reacts to being egged:
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6th May 2019, 07:31 PM | #554 |
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6th May 2019, 07:35 PM | #555 |
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6th May 2019, 07:37 PM | #556 |
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6th May 2019, 07:49 PM | #557 |
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6th May 2019, 07:51 PM | #558 |
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6th May 2019, 08:07 PM | #559 |
Penultimate Amazing
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That's the rub, isn't it? How do you determine who has murderous intent versus being a white power punk who actually doesn't want to kill anyone, anywhere, but adopts a symbol? I can't read their minds...but neither can you. Which is another point I have been working here. Meanings that you ascribe to symbols or ideology may not be held by them. Take the OP guy. I think he was taking the pseudo intellectual approach, with the nazi junk for pizazz. Stupid, tasteless, and even cruel, but not actually advocating murder. That's the type of neo-nazi I have seen. People who advocate mass killing are far more rare than posters here seem to think, IMHO.
What difference does it make, you say? When you adopt the gunslinger mentality that seems all the rage on this thread, ya best be right about who you are assaulting and why. Your personal thoughts don't cut it. You need to be really confident in where that person's head is at, and I don't think we really can be. You can have strong beliefs, and challenge him on your convictions, but when you decide to step outside the law and act (and let's drop the pretense that you and others are not advocating just that),your personal feels are not enough to justify squat. Put concretely: people sometimes wear gold crosses. What can you assume about them? That they are Christian? What do Christians believe? Stoning people to death for hundreds of offenses, right? Or might that symbol have more individual meaning, that it is tough for you to glean? A swastika is obviously more specific. But as I said earlier, I am reminded of Malibu surfer Miki Dora. He wore one for shock value, not because he wanted to gas Jews. I don't think that it always has the definitive meaning that many very understandably see in it.
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6th May 2019, 08:27 PM | #560 |
Penultimate Amazing
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There it is again: you want to be able to assault someone, and if they are not injured, you want to be able to walk away scot-free. Doesn't work that way.
This latest egging is staring to show the signs of what I and others are pointing out. The egg didn't even break, but an elderly lady was knocked over. She's okay. That's a good thing. But inevitably, things are going to go wrong. Then who will have egg on their face? |
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