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6th May 2019, 09:40 PM | #561 |
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If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong. Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! |
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6th May 2019, 10:15 PM | #562 |
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If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong. Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! |
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7th May 2019, 12:35 AM | #563 |
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This problem is what iconography was invented to solve. The symbols he is wearing, and the flag he is carrying - those are speech. Their function is to express very specific ideas. When you're using symbols associated with a very well-known group, you are professing support for that group and its values.
Think about what you say to me in your very next post:
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THAT is what is really not "how it works". The sole function of symbols is to convey a message non-verbally. This isn't some special psychic power - it's symbols' raison d'être, it's why they exist. The Nazi does not NEED to say in so many words that he supports genocide - the point of the symbol is to say that for him. It's a Nazi symbol and that's what Nazism was infamous for, and he has willingly chosen to decorate himself with the symbol that he is fully aware represents that. And no, "Meanings that you ascribe to symbols or ideology may not be held by them" is wrong. That Nazi symbols represent the Nazi regime is not some eye-of-the-beholder thing that "could go either way"; the meaning of those symbols had been firmly established for a half a century before that dweeb was even born. He doesn't get to choose they mean something new when he's wearing them. And frankly there's absolutely no evidence suggesting he wants to do that, either - this is purely arbitrary apologia by you on his behalf for some reason; it's the same bizarre magnanimous defensiveness that leads you to say that suggesting a guy who gets arrested for standing on a street corner screaming "(F-WORD) THAT (N-WORD) over and over again at the sky after abusively ranting for 20 minutes at a black motorcyclist who stopped on the road a few doors down his house is most probably racist is unfair and unreasonable, or that it's perfectly common and rational for a completely non-racist white person who happens to get angry with a black man to use racial slurs when expressing his anger. Obviously the people using those words aren't afraid to be called racist, and the guy who's wearing a swastika and carrying a sonnenrad flag is not in the least concerned about people calling him a Nazi - but here you still come to save the day and rescue them from that horrible fate nonetheless. Willing self-identification with Nazism, IS support for the Nazis' unrepentant acts, including mass killing. This guy is not wearing a swastika by accident, or for shock. The flag he's carrying, with its additional, slightly more obscure Nazi and white-nationalist symbols that are still Nazi and white nationalism symbols, are enough evidence of that by themselves. But even if they weren't there, this guy isn't some random nobody who found out one day that swastikas make people mad and has decided to wear them all the time now trying to get a rise out of people. He is heavily involved in white nationalism. A few weeks before his egging, the guy was hanging out an an Adolph Hitler birthday celebration that he personally helped organize.
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That. Is. The. Entire. Purpose. Of. Wearing. Universally. Recognized. Symbols. |
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7th May 2019, 01:15 AM | #564 |
Penultimate Amazing
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No, not at all.
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This is why Bernie Sanders voters can decide to vote for Trump instead: Most of them are U.S. American patriots, nationalists, and it very difficult to turn a disappointed nationalist into a national socialist. Michael Moore, for instance, is so patriotic that even he might make the switch some day ... |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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7th May 2019, 02:21 AM | #565 |
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7th May 2019, 02:21 AM | #566 |
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7th May 2019, 03:07 AM | #567 |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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7th May 2019, 03:09 AM | #568 |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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7th May 2019, 03:11 AM | #569 |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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7th May 2019, 03:31 AM | #570 |
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Freeze the egg for maximum effect.
It's not violence anyway |
7th May 2019, 03:32 AM | #571 |
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I have know idea what "glitter bombing" is
If you mean throwing the sparkly tiny pieces of plasticy stuff that floats in the air and think it is the same as throwing a solid object at someones head I think there is no point in trying to explain it to you. Glitter is pretty much banned now in most places any way as the environmental fun police say when it floats down in the air it ends up in oceans and kills fish Because you know, unlike a larger solid object it like .... floats when you throw it |
7th May 2019, 04:49 AM | #572 |
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Even better you can hollow out the egg and fill it full of bleach before you throw it because it's not violence
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7th May 2019, 05:05 AM | #573 |
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7th May 2019, 07:04 AM | #574 |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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7th May 2019, 07:12 AM | #575 |
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Egg the Nazis! At least when you can't get close enough to punch 'em.
Heck, it should be a holiday. "Egg the Nazi day". |
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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7th May 2019, 08:15 AM | #576 |
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If you agree to that, sure. Were these swastika wearers polled on their input? Agreed to a universal meaning, did they? Kind of doubt it. I think it represents to them what they interpret it as. Pretty sure they didn't ask for anyone else's agreement on meaning.
There is a reason that they don't straight-up call themselves nazis. They claim to endorse all the garbage, but fall short on the world-dominating political thing and the mass murdering. Hence, neo-nazi or white nationalist. They share enough in common with the original (and long gone) nazis where they retain a bunch of it, including the icons. But the bit about mass murdering is the bit you cling to as justification, and they claim to no longer endorse it. But you have to insist on that, right? If you don't, your justifications start to unravel.
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FWIW, I am one of antifa's most ardent supporters on the forum. How do you reconcile this with your repeated suggestion that I am a nazi apologist? Are you assuming a split personality or something? Do tell. After all, you keep bringing up past threads as a 'gotcha'. Why don't you bring up my arguments advocating punching Spencer, or antifa agitation? Maybe...just maybe...if you thought for a split second about what I am arguing, a glimmer of understanding might fire up. I end up being devil's advocate for these scum because I am criticizing (generically) your justifications and rationalizing. I find them immensely hypocritical.
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His attackers seem to have the same mindset as you, that you can attack people because of their symbols (that you declare the meaning of). And lo and behold, it looks like they created their own monster. Took a MAGA boy and turned him into a Hitler supporter. Good thinking. Before you jump up with the correlation v causation argument, consider how heavily you are relying on the same.
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7th May 2019, 09:08 AM | #577 |
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There are a number of accounts of Pierre Trudeau, eventual Prime Minister of Canada, and father of the current Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, often riding his motorcycle while wearing an old German military helmet. This was during WW2 and in protest of the war and his refusal to serve. Without knowing the details, this act could have easily been seen as supporting the Nazis and I'm sure many Canadians at the time, especially those in support of the war effort, would have been offended by his attire. Today, I image assaulting him would be another example of the far left eating their own.
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7th May 2019, 09:11 AM | #578 |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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7th May 2019, 09:17 AM | #579 |
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7th May 2019, 09:18 AM | #580 |
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7th May 2019, 09:20 AM | #581 |
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7th May 2019, 09:20 AM | #582 |
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It's all on the same continuum.
Now, the Holocaust was a uniquely Hilterite program. I don't expect that all totalitarians share the Hitlerite ideas of race and lebensraum. Mussolini, for example, was not a fan. What I do expect, however, is that all totalitarians share that same predilection for state violence. If not the Holocaust of Nazi Germany, then the gulags and pogroms of the Soviet Union. The Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution of Communist China. The land reform executions of North Vietnam. The murderous legacy of Che Guevara. Etc. That's where the path of political violence leads. --- Remember, it wasn't the Nazi's speech that got them into power. It was the Nazi's violence. The brownshirts started out as political goons. Their job was to protect party rallies from physical violence by other political parties. Their job was also to use physical violence to break up political rallies of other parties. They also used violence as a tool for voter suppression. The Nazis got into power by suppressing political opposition with literal, bloody violence. My argument is that in practical terms, the guy who says "we must suppress political speech with violence" has more in common with the Nazis than the guy who displays a swastika in public. The guy who says, "we must suppress Nazi speech with violence" can reassure us that he has more in common with Josef Stalin than with Adolf Hitler, but that's a cold comfort. Attendees at a Trump campaign rally in California were physically attacked by anti-Trump protestors: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/viol...ry?id=39576437 https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...anders-clinton https://www.cnn.com/2016/06/02/polit...ers/index.html https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...381728251.html You know who else brought violence to political events? Actual Nazis. If we should be concerned that Nazi ideation will lead to Nazi acts, how much more concerned should we be about literal Nazi acts? I say "Nazi" because that's what we've been focused on. But to me, Nazism is simply a specific example of the general case of statist-totalitarian ideation. The political violence of 1930s Germany was a war between fascists and communists. Both factions had goon squads out in force, using violence to try to shut each other down and suppress the vote. If being compared to Hitler doesn't sit well with you, I won't insist. We've got other comparisons to choose from. Maybe you wear a Che t-shirt instead of a swastika medallion. Suit yourself. To me, you're all on the same road, headed to the same place. Holocaust or Holodomor, it's all ideological mass murder at the end of the line. |
7th May 2019, 09:22 AM | #583 |
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7th May 2019, 09:24 AM | #584 |
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7th May 2019, 09:25 AM | #585 |
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Not sure if this is sarcasm and endorsing the point Thermal was making, or missing the point completely. I have not seen anything to suggest he supported the Kaiser against the Nazis, especially given that he went on to become good friends with Fidel Castro. I said wearing the helmet during WW2 could have been seen as supporting the Nazis. I There are still people today who incorrectly believe all German soldiers were members of the Nazi party and there are still people to this day who try to claim P. Trudeau supported the Nazis from this story.
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7th May 2019, 09:33 AM | #586 |
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7th May 2019, 09:37 AM | #587 |
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I agree. But the flip side of that reasoning is how do you definitively determine what they do mean by it?
What does a cross wearer mean by his display of that universal icon? More to the point, what range of things might they mean? Ozzy Osbourne likely meant something much different than Pope Francis means. |
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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7th May 2019, 09:39 AM | #588 |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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7th May 2019, 09:39 AM | #589 |
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7th May 2019, 09:44 AM | #590 |
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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7th May 2019, 09:48 AM | #591 |
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I have a helmet like that: WWII Style German Padded Motorcycle Half Helmet with Goggles For Biker Pilot Motorcycle Flight Half Helmet I haven't been egged so far, but then again, I've never worn a Swastika. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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7th May 2019, 09:55 AM | #592 |
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Tell me more about Che Guevara t-shirts and the people who wear them.
Tell me more about the swastika as a universally recognized symbol. |
7th May 2019, 09:57 AM | #593 |
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To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
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7th May 2019, 10:00 AM | #594 |
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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7th May 2019, 10:03 AM | #595 |
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It can be. Talk to OSHA. A workplace with a lackadaisical approach to uneven flooring and tripping hazards is potentially a workplace with a lackadaisical approach towards guard rails around meat grinders.
But as I understand it, the whole argument for physical assaults on Nazis is that engaging in nazi-like speech is not only on the same continuum as the Holocaust, but it's intolerably close to the Holocaust. So I don't think you get to dismiss political violence as being sufficiently distant from the Holocaust. Quite the opposite. Political violence was incontrovertibly a tool used by the Nazis to seize and consolidate power. Using that tool puts you on the same continuum as the other totalitarians and mass murderers who used that tool. Own it. |
7th May 2019, 10:06 AM | #596 |
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7th May 2019, 10:13 AM | #597 |
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They're not doing it on accident.
There are several posters in this thread objecting to the term "nazi" being applied to those who openly display nazi symbols. That's a PR job. I'm not saying that anyone who opposes egging is pro-nazi - There is an important moral argument to be had on this issue. But there is some denial in this thread roughly on the same level as arguing that ISIS has nothing to do with Islam. |
7th May 2019, 10:15 AM | #598 |
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No one has addressed Bouncing Bettys point yet, about whether this tactic has been shown to be effective in dealig with nazi types. Or is the argument here that it's more fun/productive to abuse people? You won't win converts in debate, agreed. But exactly what are you trying to accomplish?
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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7th May 2019, 10:19 AM | #599 |
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Good thing the US never declared war on Germany. That would have been political violence, and thus, sinking to the level of the Nazis.
Seriously though, you're not making a strong argument by casting this wide net. Start with basic moral principles and work up, rather than this weird attempt at a simple all-or-nothing rule. |
7th May 2019, 10:24 AM | #600 |
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There's a lot of equivocation that goes on in the defense of political violence against "nazis". We've seen repeatedly that it's not just literal Nazis and neo-Nazis. The violence is happily extended to suspected Nazis and the supposed Nazi-adjacents. Sometimes just being a Trump supporter is enough to put you on the Approved List for Anti-Nazi Violence.
When pressed, you'll half-assedly retreat to the bastion of "no, no, just the literal card-carrying Nazis!" But as soon as the pressure is off, you'll sally forth to reclaim as much of the "everyone to the right of me" field as you can. I'll stipulate that someone displaying a swastika in public (in certain contexts) is sufficiently "Nazi" to merit the label as a convenient descriptor. But I won't agree that therefore political violence is justified against him. And I don't expect you to stipulate that someone not obviously displaying Nazi symbols or engaging in Nazi speech is not a proper target of political violence.* --- *And to be clear, even if you did stipulate that, I'd still condemn you for excusing political violence at all. |
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