IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 7th May 2019, 12:40 PM   #641
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,539
For those of you who understand German, I can recommend Freerk Huisken's book Der demokratische Schoß ist fruchtbar - Das Elend der Kritik am (Neo-)Faschismus (VSA Verlag, 2011). He analyzes the different ways to tackle Nazis. Free online version of the book.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 12:43 PM   #642
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,539
Originally Posted by Bouncing Bettys View Post
Have you continued the tradition by enlisting with a military currently engaged with the Nazi regime or intend to? Would you say this egged Nazi is the same as the Nazis your uncles fought against?

No, he is obviously much younger. Most of the Nazis from WW2 are dead. So, no, he can't be one of the Nazis that Captain_Swoop's uncles fought against.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 7th May 2019 at 12:47 PM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 12:48 PM   #643
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
Originally Posted by dann View Post
For those of you who understand German, I can recommend Freerk Huisken's book Der demokratische Schoß ist fruchtbar - Das Elend der Kritik am (Neo-)Faschismus (VSA Verlag, 2011). He analyzes the different ways to tackle Nazis. Free online version of the book.
Does he recommend egging?
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 12:51 PM   #644
cullennz
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NZ
Posts: 21,318
The person who threw the egg at Scott Morrison has been charged with assault.

This can't be right. As according to some on here egging is just like an enthusiastic hand shake and remember the Nazis in world war 2 and the chch shooter?

What is the world coming to?
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 12:59 PM   #645
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
My uncles fought against the Nazis. I am happy to continue a family tradition.
I call shenanigans. I doubt you've ever seen a Nazi in your life, let alone happily fought one. I doubt you've ever done anything to "continue a family tradition" besides post Internet Tough Guy stuff on a backwater message board. Pics or it didn't happen.

Last edited by theprestige; 7th May 2019 at 01:01 PM.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 01:02 PM   #646
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
Originally Posted by dann View Post
All this violence seemed to put an end to Nazi violence - at least for a while.
Why are you ignoring what I'm telling you? A war and vigilante, political violence are NOT THE SAME THING.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 01:03 PM   #647
Nay_Sayer
I say nay!
 
Nay_Sayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Long Island
Posts: 3,892
Yesterday I was going to hit a Nazi with a pillow, But I wanted to check with the sympathizers here about the right amount of thread count.

I wouldn't want to gently braize any skin.
__________________
Memento Mori
Nay_Sayer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 01:05 PM   #648
Nay_Sayer
I say nay!
 
Nay_Sayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Long Island
Posts: 3,892
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
The person who threw the egg at Scott Morrison has been charged with assault.

This can't be right. As according to some on here egging is just like an enthusiastic hand shake and remember the Nazis in world war 2 and the chch shooter?

What is the world coming to?
Just assault? I would of skipped the trial. He could have ended the man's life with that yolk. IT WAS A JUMBO EGG FOR THE LOVE OF GOB!

This is how you sound.
__________________
Memento Mori
Nay_Sayer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 01:05 PM   #649
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
Yesterday I was going to hit a Nazi with a pillow, But I wanted to check with the sympathizers here about the right amount of thread count.
Don't play the weasel game. Who are the Nazi sympathisers, here? Names, please.

Do you not understand the difference between being opposed to vigilante acts of violence, and supporting their intended victims? No one here is that stupid. So clearly there's a game that's being played here by you and others.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 01:14 PM   #650
Nay_Sayer
I say nay!
 
Nay_Sayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Long Island
Posts: 3,892
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Don't play the weasel game. Who are the Nazi sympathisers, here? Names, please.

Do you not understand the difference between being opposed to vigilante acts of violence, and supporting their intended victims? No one here is that stupid. So clearly there's a game that's being played here by you and others.
Before I do, I'd like to share something;



Spoiled for extreme wonton gore. Not since the Zapruder film has such raw violence been caught on film.

I can only recall the words of Herbert Morrison as he witnessed the Hindenburg burst into flames. Oh the humanity.
__________________
Memento Mori
Nay_Sayer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 01:20 PM   #651
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
Before I do, I'd like to share something;

Spoiled for extreme wonton gore. Not since the Zapruder film has such raw violence been caught on film.

I can only recall the words of Herbert Morrison as he witnessed the Hindenburg burst into flames. Oh the humanity.
I'll take that as a "I can't name any. I didn't think you'd call my bluff."

Also as a "I can't address what you said, so instead I'll respond to something else altogether".

Ponderingturtle has made a new disciple.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 01:22 PM   #652
Bouncing Bettys
Thinker
 
Bouncing Bettys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Bowen Island, British Columbia
Posts: 195
Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, he is obviously much younger. Most of the Nazis from WW2 are dead. So, no, he can't be one of the Nazis that Captain_Swoop's uncles fought against.
So they aren't the same then? Glad we agree. He also can't be one of those Nazis because there currently are no national governments or state sponsored militaries actively committing genocide and world domination in the name of the Nazi Party or any of the original surviving members.
Bouncing Bettys is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 01:26 PM   #653
Andy_Ross
Penultimate Amazing
 
Andy_Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 47,040
Originally Posted by Bouncing Bettys View Post
Have you continued the tradition by enlisting with a military currently engaged with the Nazi regime or intend to? Would you say this egged Nazi is the same as the Nazis your uncles fought against?
Too old for the military now. I did serve in the RN but there was a shortage of Nazi regimes to fight against at the time.
Plenty of Nazis around though.
Andy_Ross is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 01:31 PM   #654
Andy_Ross
Penultimate Amazing
 
Andy_Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 47,040
Originally Posted by Bouncing Bettys View Post
So they aren't the same then? Glad we agree. He also can't be one of those Nazis because there currently are no national governments or state sponsored militaries actively committing genocide and world domination in the name of the Nazi Party or any of the original surviving members.
You do know that the Nazis in Germany didn't start out as a government and they didn't just appear when the war started?

Anyone with Nazi sympathies gets what they deserve.
Andy_Ross is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 01:36 PM   #655
cullennz
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NZ
Posts: 21,318
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
You do know that the Nazis in Germany didn't start out as a government and they didn't just appear when the war started?

Anyone with Nazi sympathies gets what they deserve.
So you think that idiots like the dude with the flag are actually going to infiltrate, form a new party to go against the Rep and Dems, get a pNazi President and congress in and turn the US into a Nazi state then?

Interesting

Sounds a lot like the "We have to have guns in case the govt turns against it's own people and starts mass killing it's citizens" argument.

Last edited by cullennz; 7th May 2019 at 01:38 PM.
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 01:46 PM   #656
Andy_Ross
Penultimate Amazing
 
Andy_Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 47,040
He wants to be a Nazi, he deserves everything a nazi should get.

It's not a game.
Andy_Ross is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 01:50 PM   #657
cullennz
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NZ
Posts: 21,318
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
He wants to be a Nazi, he deserves everything a nazi should get.

It's not a game.

Fair call

And if people throwing eggs don't moan and bitch when they get punched in the face for doing it then all is good
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 01:52 PM   #658
Nay_Sayer
I say nay!
 
Nay_Sayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Long Island
Posts: 3,892
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'll take that as a "I can't name any. I didn't think you'd call my bluff."

Also as a "I can't address what you said, so instead I'll respond to something else altogether".

Ponderingturtle has made a new disciple.
You're not going to allow me to recover from the vitriol of the image?

Heartless sir, heartless
__________________
Memento Mori
Nay_Sayer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 02:15 PM   #659
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 28,589
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That wasn't vigilante violence. That was a war against an expansive, oppressive, genocidal regime.

You might notice a slight difference, there.
Clearly we need to wait until Nazis establish a new expansive, oppressive, genocidal regime once again before doing anything to resist them again.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 02:16 PM   #660
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 28,589
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
So you think that idiots like the dude with the flag are actually going to infiltrate, form a new party to go against the Rep and Dems, get a pNazi President and congress in and turn the US into a Nazi state then?
If he doesn't want to be considered a Nazi then he shouldn't be wearing swastikas and throwing birthday parties for Hitler in order to "secure a future for white children".
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 02:16 PM   #661
Bouncing Bettys
Thinker
 
Bouncing Bettys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Bowen Island, British Columbia
Posts: 195
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
So you think that idiots like the dude with the flag are actually going to infiltrate, form a new party to go against the Rep and Dems, get a pNazi President and congress in and turn the US into a Nazi state then?

Interesting

Sounds a lot like the "We have to have guns in case the govt turns against it's own people and starts mass killing it's citizens" argument.
Imagine if the protection of the 2nd Amendment was the movement to unite all the various groups along the political spectrum: Antifa, Socialists, White Nationalists, Conservatives, Progressives, etc.
Bouncing Bettys is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 02:27 PM   #662
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 17,528
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
You do know that the Nazis in Germany didn't start out as a government and they didn't just appear when the war started?

Anyone with Nazi sympathies gets what they deserve.
Here's hoping that you take more care to confirm that presumed nazis are actually nazis. Of course I base this on you applauding the picture of an innocent person seriously injured by an egg, having knee-jerked to the assumption the guy is a nazi.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 02:30 PM   #663
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 17,528
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Clearly we need to wait until Nazis establish a new expansive, oppressive, genocidal regime once again before doing anything to resist them again.
Am I correct to infer that you think these sort of assaults are effective at suppressing nazis? If yes, what's your level of confidence?
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 02:41 PM   #664
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
You're not going to allow me to recover from the vitriol of the image?

Heartless sir, heartless
I'm not going to allow you to call people Nazi sympathisers just because they're telling you that engaging in vigilante violence is a bad idea.

Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Clearly we need to wait until Nazis establish a new expansive, oppressive, genocidal regime once again before doing anything to resist them again.
Hey, another disciple of the strawmaster! You guys are multiplying quite quickly.

When it strikes you to address what people actually say rather than some boogeyman of your twisted imagination, give me a shout.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 02:44 PM   #665
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Here's hoping that you take more care to confirm that presumed nazis are actually nazis. Of course I base this on you applauding the picture of an innocent person seriously injured by an egg, having knee-jerked to the assumption the guy is a nazi.
Well, the ends justify the means, right? An expression about breaking eggs and omelettes comes to mind, ironically enough.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 02:45 PM   #666
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Clearly we need to wait until Nazis establish a new expansive, oppressive, genocidal regime once again before doing anything to resist them again.
I'm a big fan of the Eisenhower Solution: Wait until they start ****, then send in the 101st Airborne.

You're making three major mistakes here:

1. Not waiting until they start ****;

2. Arrogating to yourself the authority properly held by the federal government; and

3. Failing to imagine any forms of resistance other than political violence.

Last edited by theprestige; 7th May 2019 at 02:47 PM.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 02:47 PM   #667
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,624
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I am glad he was hurt, maybe he will learn something from it and stop parading round in Nazi regalia.

The injured guy in that article I posted was not a Nazi. I posted it to show that people can be injured by egg throwing.

You've just shown us all why vigilante justice is illegal and a very bad idea. Thank you for the contribution.

Do you people understand why we have laws? It's funny that some of you are slamming nazis while you advocate vigilante violence at your whim, facts be damned. That is some dangerously warped "thinking".
__________________
Why bother?
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 02:48 PM   #668
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
If he doesn't want to be considered a Nazi then he shouldn't be wearing swastikas and throwing birthday parties for Hitler in order to "secure a future for white children".
If you don't want to be considered a Communist, then you shouldn't endorse political violence every time a scary fascist shows their face in public.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 02:49 PM   #669
bluesjnr
Professional Nemesis for Hire
 
bluesjnr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Home.
Posts: 11,992
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Now now now we can't assume just from their being in such organizations that they were real nazis and not posers. Really I am beginning to suspect that there never were any real nazis anywhere that would satisfy so many in this thread.
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Come on totally unjustified most of them were not even nazi party members and most of those where just posers. Get in the spirit of such things now.
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And the minor shootings in Christchurch of course were done by a harmless internet edgelord troll, we can see by his ties to 8chan. Why did everyone get worked up about someone who wasn't even a real racist?
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yep we are back to nazi rhetoric and uniforms in no way make someone a nazi. When is someone really a nazi?
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
No he is honestly asserting that marching around in nazi regalia is meaningless.
Is this type of response meaningful in any way? Are you of the opinion that you are engaging with people here? It's exhausting to have to trawl through the same statement couched in different words.

It's like a performance.

It's the literary equivalent of being egged, time and time again.

Last edited by bluesjnr; 7th May 2019 at 02:50 PM.
bluesjnr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 02:50 PM   #670
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
You do know that the Nazis in Germany didn't start out as a government and they didn't just appear when the war started?
Do you know the circumstances and methods by which the Nazis rose to power?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 02:51 PM   #671
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,624
Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Is this type of response meaningful in any way? Are you of the opinion that you are engaging with people here? It's exhausting to have to trawl through the same statement couched in different words.

It's like a performance.

It's the literary equivalent of being egged, time and time again.

I call it a temper tantrum.
__________________
Why bother?
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 03:02 PM   #672
bluesjnr
Professional Nemesis for Hire
 
bluesjnr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Home.
Posts: 11,992
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I call it a temper tantrum.
Quite possibly, it's bloody hard work whatever it is and seems to be catching!

Y'know reading it back I'm imagining a small man standing behind a lectern; ranting, pumping his fist in the air then thumping the lectern with every point he makes. His voice rising and falling as he winds himself (and now his adoring supporters) up.

I can't think where I get that image from.
bluesjnr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 03:04 PM   #673
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm a big fan of the Eisenhower Solution: Wait until they start ****, then send in the 101st Airborne.

You're making three major mistakes here:

1. Not waiting until they start ****;

2. Arrogating to yourself the authority properly held by the federal government; and

3. Failing to imagine any forms of resistance other than political violence.
Also, failing to understand the consequences. Once you initiate violence, violence is how it'll end, and the advocates of terrorism here aren't considering that perhaps they'll be on the losing end. At least when you uphold democracy, discussion and the rule of law, you have a framework that shields everyone from these consequences.

By all means, if this breaks down and violence is the only remaining solution, go for it, but don't tear down society preemptively because the people you disagree with have ideas that you can't live with.

Furthermore, I doubt that any of them would volunteer to deliberately go out and find Nazis to punch or, presumably, kill, since that's how you stop them, according to them. They're keyboard warriors, nothing else.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 03:06 PM   #674
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
The injured guy in that article I posted was not a Nazi. I posted it to show that people can be injured by egg throwing.

You've just shown us all why vigilante justice is illegal and a very bad idea. Thank you for the contribution.

Do you people understand why we have laws? It's funny that some of you are slamming nazis while you advocate vigilante violence at your whim, facts be damned. That is some dangerously warped "thinking".
What's both funny and sad and terrifying is that the very posters who are telling us how dangerous the neo-nazis are, are advocating for the exact thing that made the original Nazis dangerous: eliminate the opposition.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 03:08 PM   #675
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Do you know the circumstances and methods by which the Nazis rose to power?
I'm sure many here think that the reason they rose to power is that no one stopped them.

But it's not that simple. Interwar Germany was a powderkeg. The Democratic state was weak and ineffective, racial hatred was at a peak, conspiracy theories about the WWI defeat widely circulated, Germany was isolated and ridiculed, in their mind, etc. It was going to blow, one way or another, under one madman or another.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 03:13 PM   #676
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What's both funny and sad and terrifying is that the very posters who are telling us how dangerous the neo-nazis are, are advocating for the exact thing that made the original Nazis dangerous: eliminate the opposition.
Yep. Again, it wasn't the Nazis' ideas that got them into power. It was their willingness to apply political violence to anyone who disagreed with them.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 03:16 PM   #677
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 26,431
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
So you think that idiots like the dude with the flag are actually going to infiltrate, form a new party to go against the Rep and Dems, get a pNazi President and congress in and turn the US into a Nazi state then?

Interesting

Sounds a lot like the "We have to have guns in case the govt turns against it's own people and starts mass killing it's citizens" argument.
Correct use of “so.” TBD will not be forgotten.
Sideroxylon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 03:32 PM   #678
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 26,431
Country Women’s Association Egg Cookery for Young Revolutionaries
https://twitter.com/cathywilcox1/sta...300181504?s=21
Sideroxylon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 03:43 PM   #679
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 28,589
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
If you agree to that, sure. Were these swastika wearers polled on their input? Agreed to a universal meaning, did they? Kind of doubt it. I think it represents to them what they interpret it as. Pretty sure they didn't ask for anyone else's agreement on meaning.
We know what this swastika wearer thinks about his connection with the Nazis because we know about his other Nazi activities.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
There is a reason that they don't straight-up call themselves nazis.
(The guy we're talking about does though)

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
They claim to endorse all the garbage, but fall short on the world-dominating political thing and the mass murdering. Hence, neo-nazi or white nationalist. They share enough in common with the original (and long gone) nazis where they retain a bunch of it, including the icons. But the bit about mass murdering is the bit you cling to as justification, and they claim to no longer endorse it.
That's not actually true; but even if it was this argument is absurd, as addressed below.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Pretty much, yeah. They can adopt a symbol that conveys most of what they think without the butcherous bits, much as a Christian can wear a cross without advocating stoning for adultery.
The Christian cross doesn't represent advocacy for stoning, though. In fact the figure they worship explicitly said "hey don't do that kind of thing"; so yeah, this argument is a fail.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yeah, actually they can. They can say the swastika represents 95% of their ideals, just not the world dominating and killing parts. You don't get to determine what they mean. What do cross-wearers universally mean with their symbol? Serious question.
The symbol means they want people to know they worship Jesus. That's literally it. By your own acknowledgement, the Nazi swastika represents a much more narrow and specific ideology, confined to a much more specific space and time, than the Christian cross does; so this analogy is going to get silly quickly.

Look, I'll admit, it's partly my fault for allowing you guys to put the focus exclusively on killing and genocide, as if those are the only things that make Nazism/white-nationalism truly repugnant and absent those things there's nothing really all that risible or offensive or threatening about it (i.e., "just someone with an opinion"). But that ends now.

Genocide was only one part of it. The Nazi atrocities did not begin or end specifically with the mass-murder of the minorities whom they first systematically disenfranchised, segregated, and then concentrated; nor with their overt moves toward "world domination". You find me an American neo-nazi who claims to be against mass killing but still thinks America is the white man's land first and foremost, and the laws and social structure and attitudes should be changed to reflect that, I'll show you a neo-nazi who is still advocating Nazi atrocities. A new white-nationalist regime that stops short of genocide and aggressive military conquest is still something that cannot be freely permitted to happen ever again and needs to be treated like the real threat that it is.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Come on, Checkmite. You tipped your hand that you are addressing the arguer, not the argument.
This particular point yes, undisguisedly so.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
FWIW, I am one of antifa's most ardent supporters on the forum. How do you reconcile this with your repeated suggestion that I am a nazi apologist?
Because you're apologizing for an avowed nazi at the moment; it's not difficult. It's not up to me to reconcile the inconsistencies of your statements; I'm content to simply point them out.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Are you assuming a split personality or something? Do tell. After all, you keep bringing up past threads as a 'gotcha'. Why don't you bring up my arguments advocating punching Spencer, or antifa agitation?
Because I never see them. It's great if "some of your best friends are antifa" I guess; if you want to fill us all in on why you advocate punching Spencer but think throwing an egg at this guy is over the line, feel free to do so. But this is the first time I'm aware of such an argument on your part; and saying such things doesn't really constitute a free pass to apologize for this guy anyway, so I'm not sure it's worth your time.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Maybe...just maybe...if you thought for a split second about what I am arguing, a glimmer of understanding might fire up. I end up being devil's advocate for these scum because I am criticizing (generically) your justifications and rationalizing. I find them immensely hypocritical.
"You can throw an egg as long as it doesn't hurt anyone" is "immensely hypocritical", gotcha.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Gotta hand it to you; you don't disappoint. Yeah, according to your article, he seems to have been a conservative wearing a MAGA hat who was very publicly attacked over it, got worked over and his face cut up with a broken bottle. It was while he was dancing at a club in NY, not doing nazi stuff, which he was not involved with at the time. Shortly after, he joined (and was kicked out of) the proud boys. Then slid over to alt-right lite, then heavier towards white nationalism.

His attackers seem to have the same mindset as you, that you can attack people because of their symbols (that you declare the meaning of). And lo and behold, it looks like they created their own monster. Took a MAGA boy and turned him into a Hitler supporter. Good thinking. Before you jump up with the correlation v causation argument, consider how heavily you are relying on the same.

No; that's just a list of his public activities. Somebody stepping on his dropped MAGA hat and then getting into it with him when he put his hands on them did not "turn him into a Hitler supporter". The world is not some comic book and this is not his supervillain origin-story. If MAGA people aren't nazis, there's no clear and direct road from the first part to the second part.

But I think you understand that well enough, and realize that this is just a convenient opportunity to stay off the back foot by changing the subject from the fact that yes, this guy very definitely is all-nazi and advocates all of it after all, to HE'S ONLY A NAZI BECAUSE OF YOU.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002

Last edited by Checkmite; 7th May 2019 at 03:45 PM.
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2019, 03:45 PM   #680
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Correct use of “so.” TBD will not be forgotten.
In remembrance, we should honor how many times He would have said 'Freedom of Speech', or 'Skokie Nazis' ITT
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:55 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.