|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
8th May 2019, 03:12 AM | #721 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
|
|
8th May 2019, 03:12 AM | #722 |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NZ
Posts: 21,318
|
|
8th May 2019, 03:15 AM | #723 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 53,184
|
|
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
|
8th May 2019, 03:18 AM | #724 |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NZ
Posts: 21,318
|
|
8th May 2019, 03:18 AM | #725 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 53,184
|
|
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
|
8th May 2019, 03:21 AM | #726 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 53,184
|
|
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
|
8th May 2019, 03:24 AM | #727 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,539
|
|
__________________
/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
|
8th May 2019, 03:25 AM | #728 |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NZ
Posts: 21,318
|
|
8th May 2019, 03:27 AM | #729 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
|
Throwing eggs at people you're adamant are poised to violently take over America and commit genocide doesn't sound particularily effective.
Seems to me like they want to have their cake and eat it too, but they're out of eggs. |
8th May 2019, 03:29 AM | #730 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
|
|
8th May 2019, 03:37 AM | #731 |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NZ
Posts: 21,318
|
|
8th May 2019, 03:51 AM | #732 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,539
|
No, that's not true of everyone. The point is that it was true from the very beginning. It was true from the moment of Mein Kampf and it was true from the moment they started shouting "Juden raus." When a murderer publishes the list of all the people he's going to kill. At that point, the police usually start to take notice, even if he's white, whereas you are busy defending his right not to be egged. |
__________________
/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
|
8th May 2019, 04:02 AM | #733 |
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 41,468
|
1988? I thought you were going to post the Mumbai "Hitler Restaurant". Both cases are famously blown out of all proportion. Both cultures are notoriously ignorant of WWII European History. Plus, the Asian variant of the swastika is an ancient symbol and is still on many temples. That's about the time I was first visiting here and remember the Lonely Planet guide had a picture of kite sellers in Lumpini Park. There was a Union Jack, a Stars & Stripes, a Japanese flag, and a Nazi Germany flag. (This was before the Chinese dominated the tourist scene so no one cared about their money, so no Chinese flag.)
We've been through this. A new generation of Asians are clueless as to what happened in their own countries in WWII, much less in Europe. (Particularly if you were Japan's ally from '41 to '45.) This is not comparable to educated westerners dolling themselves up in Nazi regalia, giving the nazi salute, making up cute harmless memes like 'Heil Trump", etc.... |
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable. |
|
8th May 2019, 04:12 AM | #734 |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NZ
Posts: 21,318
|
|
8th May 2019, 04:13 AM | #735 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
|
Ok granted, quadraplegics can't do that.
But other than that, humans have that capacity. Nazis, islamists, communists, you name it. Violent ideologies that are allowed to become violent are dangerous. But that's the key thing: allowed to become violent, the very thing you're proposing your "side" to be. |
8th May 2019, 04:25 AM | #736 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 53,184
|
|
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
|
8th May 2019, 04:31 AM | #737 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,539
|
No, you got that one completely wrong as well. Nazis didn't start with vigilantism and political violence. (And, yes, humans are capable of becoming Nazis. I don't think anybody in this thread claimed that they were lizards or ducklings.) National Socialism started with Nazi ideology - loooong before they were numerous and thus confident enough to use violence. Hitler's guys made political posters, they handed out leaflets, and they even ran for parliament, they voted and they got elected. Does that sound familiar to you? Because that's how it began. You sound as if you've never read about the history of Nazis and actually imagine that it began with egging. Nowadays, of course, they would have used modern technology. If they existed today, they would have been all over the internet so it's a good thing that they don't. Oh, I forgot!
Quote:
If they're the worst human thing imaginable, why is it so important to you to stress that they're just human beings? Hitler did what he did because he was a Nazi, but you seem to think that he did what he did because he was human. You guys are always big fans of false abstractions because they imply so much more than the specific thing we're talking about: [i]egging[i] becomes throwing things a people's heads, and Nazis become mere humans - and who would want to hurt one of those guys?! Now it's the time for you to tell us what will "improve the situation" and exactly what situation you're talking about, because so far the only situation that needs to be improved according to you seems to be the egging of Nazis, which you're so adamant about putting a stop to. For those of us who don't really mind seeing a Nazi get a good egging, the situation is that Nazis exist and prosper.
Quote:
I've already said what I would probably do if I met him. That's what I throw at you, too. If I walked by him on my way home from the supermarket where I happened to have bought a carton of eggs, I don't really know what I would do, but in that situation egging him myself or making a gift of the eggs to the resistance might be an option. I apologize in advance for ruining the new umbrella that you are busy defending him with. |
__________________
/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
|
8th May 2019, 04:31 AM | #738 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 53,184
|
Nice strawman. No I am just saying he was not a real nazi and we have no good evidence that he was not just an mentally ill person who also happened to be a nazi fetishist. So of course we can not call him a nazi because we don't know that he really wanted to kill and conquer for proper nazi reasons, or was just an edgelord troll who happened to be mentally ill and kill people. There simply is not enough evidence to call him a true nazi instead of just a nazi fetishist.
Be a little bit consistent, I mean it isn't like nazi paraphanalia and advocating violence is enough to call someone a nazi and how can we truely say that he shot those people as anything other than a new level of internet trolling to make people think he is a nazi for the LOLZ? The ties to 8chan certainly argue that he is just a troll and should not be considered a real nazi. |
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
|
8th May 2019, 04:32 AM | #739 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,539
|
|
__________________
/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
|
8th May 2019, 04:33 AM | #740 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 53,184
|
New standards in nazi apologists.
Retweeting nazis is not in anyway endorsing them, and wearing nazi imagery and using nazi slogans in a political demonstration in no way connects one to nazis. Hmm what is the new frontier in nazi apologists next? |
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
|
8th May 2019, 04:35 AM | #741 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,539
|
|
__________________
/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
|
8th May 2019, 04:39 AM | #742 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
|
I didn't say that they started with that. I said that the kind of regime you're afraid of starts with that. If the Nazis had been a peaceful organisation I doubt they would've survived for very long in that environment. There was plenty of political violence in 1920s Germany, and the only reason they won was because they were more willing to do violence than everyone else.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
8th May 2019, 04:43 AM | #743 |
Pi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 21,797
|
By becoming violent before they do? The rule of law is important. Due process is important. Either everyone gets them or they're just bollocks. I don't know on what basis you think that you or any individual is allowed to disregard both because you feel like it. That's utter madness. ETA: In your world, would a hard-boiled egg be allowed? What about a three minute egg? How hard an egg would you allow? |
__________________
Up the River! Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted] |
|
8th May 2019, 04:48 AM | #744 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
|
|
8th May 2019, 04:50 AM | #745 |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NZ
Posts: 21,318
|
|
8th May 2019, 04:51 AM | #746 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
|
|
8th May 2019, 04:58 AM | #747 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 35,043
|
Yeah, that's my rub too. I never really see how these lawless actions actually accomplish the goal of hindering these right-wing groups.
This egging case is an exception to the general trend of these groups, because this loser with the flag was out by himself in a very vulnerable way. So yes, egging him may dissuade him from doing it again. But generally speaking, the neo-nazi/alt-right types have already adapted to being targeted for violence by assembling in groups, arming and armoring themselves for street fights, and engaging in counter-action against the antifa types. It's a bit of twisted logic. Antifa can only really be effective against Nazis that are too disorganized and weak to effectively mount a defense (say, like a lone nut on the sidewalk). The alt-right types that are actually a threat are too well organized and too well supported to be quashed in such a manner. Antifa can snatch the low hanging fruit, but I don't really see how they are going to be effective against the Nazis that are the real danger. |
__________________
Previously known as SuburbanTurkey |
|
8th May 2019, 05:00 AM | #748 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,539
|
Yes, that was exactly how you said it started, and now you do the same thing you did when I pointed out that the German Nazis were defeated (much too late) by violence. You pretend that you meant (and said!) something else, which you didn't. You didn't talk about a regime, and we all know that you didn't.
Quote:
Whenever you say that Nazis are just human beings, and whenever you won't talk about what Nazis are capable of because they're Nazis.
Quote:
Yes, and why would you start talking about humans when what we're talking about is Nazis? Only 'humans' with certain ideologies do these terrible things. That the peaceful ones are still able to do them is irrelevant. They don't, so what's up with your insistence on their ability? I'm not egging anybody on to do violence. I'm criticizing your absurd arguments and hyperbole.
Quote:
I do. That's how I counter yours. You didn't notice?!
Quote:
Why would I be out there killing Nazis???! Why are you here defending the rights of Nazis and blowing egging out of proportions?
Quote:
I'm so simple-minded that I recognize when somebody is 1) trying to make Nazis look good by abstracting from everything that characterizes them as Nazis, and 2) painting egging of Nazis as a crime against humanity. |
__________________
/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
|
8th May 2019, 05:01 AM | #749 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
|
It's a bit of a catch. If protesters couldn't be armed at least, you'd stand a better chance of having peaceful protests, even from the Nazis. But this being America, it makes the issue more complicated.
But I maintain that discussion and the rule of law is the best way to fight these monsters. Only when there are no other choices should the path to violence be taken. |
8th May 2019, 05:01 AM | #751 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,539
|
|
__________________
/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
|
8th May 2019, 05:05 AM | #752 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,539
|
|
__________________
/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
|
8th May 2019, 05:06 AM | #753 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
|
I said exactly what I said above: the regime started with violence, not the party.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Also, NOBODY called throwing eggs a crime against humanity. You made that up, AGAIN. I mean, if you can't even get a single argument of your opponent's correctly, what discussion is there to be had? |
8th May 2019, 05:06 AM | #754 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 53,184
|
Yep it is never the white supremacists who get the blame if they attack or are attacked it is always the antifa, this is why all protest of white supremacy, which apparently doesn't exist anyway, is pointless and fruitless. I mean if you show up to counter protest and are ready to be attacked you are undermining the rule of law and if you don't and get attacked anyway you are still blamed.
There simply is no moral way to confront or counter these white supremacists protests. |
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
|
8th May 2019, 05:09 AM | #755 |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NZ
Posts: 21,318
|
|
8th May 2019, 05:10 AM | #756 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 53,184
|
And of course by extenstion any counter protests are of course also the actions of vigilantes and immoral as well. Counter protests are really only ok when they are done by people like this totally not a nazi, no matter what flags they were carrying.
https://couriernews.com/Content/Defa...st/-3/83/55078 "A group of White Nationalists carried Nazi flags and shouted racial slurs throughout Sunday's March of Remembrance, an event designed to honor survivors and those who died in the Holocaust at the Depot Park in downtown Russellville." |
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
|
8th May 2019, 05:11 AM | #757 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
|
I could dig up a few quotes from uke2se but I'm too lazy to look it up.
But if you don't think it's vital to be violent against Nazis, why are you saying things like this: ? Clealy some of you, including yourself, view them as a clear and present danger, and view violence as the only way to stop them. Right back at you. You have no idea how they came to power and why. |
8th May 2019, 05:12 AM | #758 |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NZ
Posts: 21,318
|
|
8th May 2019, 05:26 AM | #759 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,539
|
This is brilliant because it so clearly demonstrates Belz's way thinking:
I would if I could, but I won't so instead I have some quotations for you (from myself, Checkmite and Captain_Swoop) that I can pretend say the things I imagine that they say even though they don't.
Quote:
Clearly?! Really? Analyze very carefully, Belz! What exactly made you think so? Where are your quotations to show that?
Quote:
I already told you: They didn't start as a result of escalating vigilante violence. That version of history is absurd. The Nazis were very organized. They were a political party, one of many, and they managed to persuade some of their not-too-bright opponents that that's all they were, and they defeated them in elections. They were first and foremost nationalists, German patriots, who wanted to make Germany great again. And they came up with an explanation for Germany's defeat in WWI: the foreign elements, the ones who don't belong here, the parasites who are only out to exploit this otherwise great nation of ours. Which, of course, made the solution pretty obvious. Nowadays they're called Mexicans or Muslims, preferably both, even though that's definitely a Norse of a different color .... |
__________________
/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
|
8th May 2019, 05:35 AM | #760 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,539
|
This same paragraph, by the way, is also where your genesis story of National Socialism begins: "Vigilantism and politcal violence. Later on, you then pretend that you were talking about a "regime", which is obviously a completely different story, but it only goes to show that you seem incapable of understanding what Nazis are as long as they haven't yet taken control of the state apparatus. They're a kind of endangered species whose rights to spread their propaganda should be protected at all costs. |
__________________
/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|