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3rd May 2019, 06:34 AM | #201 |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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3rd May 2019, 06:40 AM | #202 |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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3rd May 2019, 06:48 AM | #203 |
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3rd May 2019, 07:21 AM | #204 |
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To help out with your "and can't see the difference, for example, between antifa and nazi's."
The Nazis are the ones that want me killed, the Antifa don't. You may not be in a group of citizens that the nazis want to kill so for you it may not seem much a difference as neither Nazis nor Antifa want to kill you but for me it seems a pretty big difference. |
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3rd May 2019, 07:50 AM | #205 |
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Assault is assault is assault. Which is to say, while we may recognize that different degrees of assault may merit different degrees of consequence, it does not mean that any degree of assault should be tolerated. A man who beaned an egg at his wife because she burned the roast would be guilty of domestic violence. People who commit domestic violence should not get a free pass. Neither should people who commit political violence. But as we see repeatedly on this forum, there are plenty of people who think that political violence is okay, as long as it's their politics that are committing the violence.
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3rd May 2019, 07:57 AM | #206 |
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We haven't seen it in the States for decades, really. Online, it seems to be gaining traction as the 'new' way to deal with white supremacists. And that's the part I'm concerned about. No matter the new haircut you try to slap on it, it is advocating starting a physical confrontation that is likely to escalate, and quickly. Is that really what we should be egging on?
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3rd May 2019, 08:02 AM | #207 |
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This sums up pretty neatly what the problem is with the egg-em-all crowd. The guy who was hurt wasn't parading around in anything. Just walking with his kid on the side of the road. No swasticakas, not any flavor of nazi as far as we know, nothing at all.
But what do you say you see again? You're glad he was hurt, you say? Because you can just feeeeel that he was down low a nazi because someone egged him? This really is a scary post. |
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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3rd May 2019, 08:06 AM | #208 |
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You find violence acceptable against those with whom politically disagree is becoming the go-to strawman in these discussions, no matter how many times it's clarified.
Do you think that opposing ISIS is the same thing as opposing all Muslims? Probably not. That's an obvious category error. The same fallacy is committed when one tries to lump the supporters of ethnic cleansing in with the broader category of "political opponents" and say that one supports egging/punching the latter when they are clearly only advocating it for the former. If you're doing this, please stop lying. |
3rd May 2019, 08:09 AM | #209 |
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3rd May 2019, 08:17 AM | #210 |
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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3rd May 2019, 08:19 AM | #211 |
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Sometimes slopes are actually slippery
This is a finely distilled example of one of the dangers.
As Thermal points out, we see no evidence whatsoever this guy has anything to do with nazis. So far as we know, he's an ordinary member of society taking a walk in the park with his young daughter. Yet here in a milieu that assigns great value to facts/evidence, a smart person like you assumes he's a nazi and celebrates the assault. Sometimes slopes are actually slippery. In another thread, a member who advocated punching nazis clarified that only nazis deserve this treatment. But when pressed, ordinary bigots were added to the list of punchables. In another thread, it was suggested that a person just being in the proximity of protesting nazis on a city street, even when that person is not a nazi, not a participant in the protest, is asking for it. This is a dangerous mindset. |
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3rd May 2019, 08:22 AM | #212 |
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You're too late it's already been explained to me but thank you very much for taking the time.
I'm impressed that you have survived the many attempts that the Nazi's have made on your life and I hope you continue to do so. I don't know what group of citizens I'm in and I'm not particularly concerned either way. I think, like yourself, I'll be okay. |
3rd May 2019, 08:27 AM | #213 |
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3rd May 2019, 08:32 AM | #214 |
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3rd May 2019, 09:19 AM | #215 |
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3rd May 2019, 09:27 AM | #216 |
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3rd May 2019, 09:36 AM | #217 |
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3rd May 2019, 09:38 AM | #218 |
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The level of power they wield, the level and quantity of their military equipment, their level of organization, control of the cultural zeitgeist, governmental control, percentage of the population, among many others.
Thinking you are fighting the same fight that was fought in ww2 downright offensive get over yourself you are picking on neckbeards grumbling about "those people" not a well armed and organized force. |
3rd May 2019, 09:41 AM | #219 |
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3rd May 2019, 09:42 AM | #220 |
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3rd May 2019, 09:47 AM | #221 |
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Actually I am. I simply understand that silencing and dehumanizing people doesn't work, and only makes the situation worse.
I mean look at how that affected you. Do you think doing it back will make them feel different? Or will it do the same thing it did to you, make you angry, make you organize and make you fight. The only way to deny that outcome is to convince yourself they are not human, and therein won't have your same reaction. Which you are doing by steps. Personally I prefer hearing the word ****** over organized gangs of pissed off white supremacists, but hey I'm funny like that. |
3rd May 2019, 10:32 AM | #222 |
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Meh. This wasn't a flag on a pole in somebody's front yard on private property that somebody trespassed to steal or vandalize. It was brought into public to be used for speech purposes; and when it was left laying on the public sidewalk, it was picked up and used for someone else's speech purposes. If it had been ripped out of his hands I would say that's not right; but he dropped it. And it wasn't like he dropped it and was immediately and obviously reaching for it when it was quickly snatched away. He left it behind and ran away. In a circumstance like that - hey, finders keepers, I don't really care.
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3rd May 2019, 10:40 AM | #223 |
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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3rd May 2019, 10:41 AM | #224 |
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3rd May 2019, 10:45 AM | #225 |
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Not just "something". Specifically speech materials - flyers, posters, banners, signs, flags, etc. When you bring them into public and then leave them in some random public place that isn't designated for installing things like that, then yes, you must accept the possibility that they may be appropriated for counter-speech purposes.
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3rd May 2019, 10:48 AM | #226 |
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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3rd May 2019, 10:51 AM | #227 |
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3rd May 2019, 10:53 AM | #228 |
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3rd May 2019, 10:59 AM | #229 |
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Or what if like a thousand anti-nazi ninjas all start egging you at once until your entire self is so soaked with egg and slippery that you lose purchase on the banner and slips from your grip despite your best concerted efforts to hold onto it? Does that still count as dropping it? Huh????
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3rd May 2019, 11:00 AM | #230 |
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3rd May 2019, 11:04 AM | #231 |
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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3rd May 2019, 11:04 AM | #232 |
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I'm not sure your appeal to "reality" helps your case much.
You're arguing that it's okay to drive people off with violence, and appropriate any possessions you force them to leave behind in the process. That may be "reality" in the same sense that it's reality that if someone threatens a cashier at gunpoint and takes all the money out of the register, the money is effectively "theirs". But most people would find such a result intolerable, and would not recognize the robber's possession as legitimate. They'd want the robber punished, and the victim made whole again. What you're condoning here is robbery. Because "nazis" and "reality" and whatever other crap you need to tell yourself to justify political violence as a cover for straight-up crime. And this is why I don't condone political violence even against Nazis. Because first we get the "but they're Nazis!" excuse, and then comes this ****. |
3rd May 2019, 11:26 AM | #233 |
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Just to update everyone:
I have been reading all the various efforts of de-radicalization and so far I have not found any techniques which include abuse, and certainly none that mention egg throwing. The Germans seem to have an interesting program where they don't really tackle the extremist views, but focus on job and career programs in order to address underlying socio-economic factors of radicalization. Would anyone advocating assault as an effective method of combating radicalization care to share successful programs with such practices? |
3rd May 2019, 11:38 AM | #234 |
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Firstly, I've already established that I don't agree that throwing an egg at someone is necessarily an act of violence. But regardless: the person in that video did not drop the flag because he was "violently egged", and neither did the egging "drive him off". He chose to drop the flag because he chose to respond to the egging not by running away, but by confronting, punching, tackling etc the egger, and he decided he wanted both his hands free to do that. Engaging in this historical revisionism to defend the egged nazi as a victim of "violent robbery" is repugnant.
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3rd May 2019, 11:42 AM | #235 |
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3rd May 2019, 11:44 AM | #236 |
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3rd May 2019, 11:47 AM | #237 |
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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3rd May 2019, 11:48 AM | #238 |
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3rd May 2019, 11:49 AM | #239 |
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No - nobody is "intimidated" by being hit with an egg, nor are they intended to be. The point is humiliation. There's even an idiom in English - "to have egg on one's face". This idiom references egging, and it describes a state of being humiliated, not intimidated.
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3rd May 2019, 11:55 AM | #240 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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