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Old 15th December 2019, 08:04 PM   #41
Bob001
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
Why would she have to provide ID if she was not comitting a crime? She was perfectly entitled to tell the cop to mind his own business as she was not doing anything wrong
Great. So she's in the right, and she gets handcuffed and arrested and has to spend who knows how much time and money dealing with it. When she argued with the cop about holding the handrail, he believed -- rightly or not -- that he had grounds to cite her. At that point, she's required to produce ID. Arguing with him just made it worse. The cop mentality is "I must win." People have been shot and killed during routine traffic stops because the cop claimed he felt threatened. People have been shot and killed for running away from cops after some trivial altercation.

In this case, when the cop said "hold on to the handrail," she could have done it and said "Thanks." He wouldn't have given her another thought, and they both would have gone about their business. When she refused, and he said "Lemme see some ID," she could have complied, the cop might have lectured her and let her go, and at worse he would have written a citation that she could probably have had thrown out. But no, she pushes it as far as she can and gets locked up. For what purpose?

At some point, most of us learn to pick our battles, and this isn't a battle most of us would have picked.
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Old 15th December 2019, 10:49 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Great. So she's in the right, and she gets handcuffed and arrested and has to spend who knows how much time and money dealing with it. When she argued with the cop about holding the handrail, he believed -- rightly or not -- that he had grounds to cite her. At that point, she's required to produce ID. Arguing with him just made it worse. The cop mentality is "I must win." People have been shot and killed during routine traffic stops because the cop claimed he felt threatened. People have been shot and killed for running away from cops after some trivial altercation.

In this case, when the cop said "hold on to the handrail," she could have done it and said "Thanks." He wouldn't have given her another thought, and they both would have gone about their business. When she refused, and he said "Lemme see some ID," she could have complied, the cop might have lectured her and let her go, and at worse he would have written a citation that she could probably have had thrown out. But no, she pushes it as far as she can and gets locked up. For what purpose?

At some point, most of us learn to pick our battles, and this isn't a battle most of us would have picked.

I'll wager the vast majority of those happen in the USA, not Canada.
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Old 16th December 2019, 11:33 AM   #43
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Typical advice I've seen is "do what the police say and deal with it afterwards - even if they're wrong to do it". I'm sure there are reasonable exceptions like confessing to a crime and stuff like that.

It reminds me of a point I make on occasion: Look both ways before crossing a road. You can have the right of way and be dead simultaneously

Last edited by pharphis; 16th December 2019 at 11:35 AM.
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Old 16th December 2019, 11:42 AM   #44
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In the USA, as far as I know, a citizen is not required to actually carry an ID card/passport just while out and about. They are required to identify themselves truthfully to the police when asked.

How does this work in Canada?

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Old 16th December 2019, 05:01 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Great. So she's in the right, and she gets handcuffed and arrested and has to spend who knows how much time and money dealing with it. When she argued with the cop about holding the handrail, he believed -- rightly or not -- that he had grounds to cite her. At that point, she's required to produce ID. Arguing with him just made it worse. The cop mentality is "I must win." People have been shot and killed during routine traffic stops because the cop claimed he felt threatened. People have been shot and killed for running away from cops after some trivial altercation.

In this case, when the cop said "hold on to the handrail," she could have done it and said "Thanks." He wouldn't have given her another thought, and they both would have gone about their business. When she refused, and he said "Lemme see some ID," she could have complied, the cop might have lectured her and let her go, and at worse he would have written a citation that she could probably have had thrown out. But no, she pushes it as far as she can and gets locked up. For what purpose?

At some point, most of us learn to pick our battles, and this isn't a battle most of us would have picked.
I confess to usually playing it the easy way myself and in some cases I've read the individual insisting on their rights does appears to me to be pushing it to an absurd limit. But what good are rights and freedoms if everyone is afraid to invoke them in practice? It just solidifies the erroneous expectations of the police officers, whereas it is they who need the training to correct their misunderstanding of the law.

I suspect abuse of rights often slowly escalates over time; I value those whose threshold for battle is lower than mine because by protecting the more minor liberties they help protect the more major ones.
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Old 17th December 2019, 12:40 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I confess to usually playing it the easy way myself and in some cases I've read the individual insisting on their rights does appears to me to be pushing it to an absurd limit. But what good are rights and freedoms if everyone is afraid to invoke them in practice? It just solidifies the erroneous expectations of the police officers, whereas it is they who need the training to correct their misunderstanding of the law.
.....
The cop's original "offense" was to tell the woman "Hold on to the handrail." Being it's Canada, I'll bet he even said "Please." To respond "No way, and you can't make me" strikes me as the wrong place to draw a line in the sand.
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Old 17th December 2019, 04:19 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The cop's original "offense" was to tell the woman "Hold on to the handrail." Being it's Canada, I'll bet he even said "Please." To respond "No way, and you can't make me" strikes me as the wrong place to draw a line in the sand.
My wife is not the sort of person to defy a police officer, but she is the sort of person who would not willingly touch an escalator hand rail. When we visit a doctor's office or ride a train she won't touch any surface unless it's absolutely necessary, and then she will wash her hands as soon as she is able. On a train most commuters if they are standing will grab a strap or a rail or something to steady themselves because the train may move in unexpected ways. But not my wife. So for some people at least it really is something that they would rather not do.
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Old 22nd December 2019, 02:11 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
That's nothing! I was attempting to go through an automatic door when power went out and it was stuck halfway! I couldn't go in or out! Stood there for hours!
Even though they're made of glass, these things really creep me out with exactly that in mind.

https://www.turnstile-systems.com/index.php/pods/

Not to mention an uncomfortable feeling that the floor may open to drop one into the shark tank if one fails the scan...
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Old 23rd December 2019, 10:36 PM   #49
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My coat once got stuck in an escalator in this shop. I think I was about nine years old.
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Old 24th December 2019, 12:42 AM   #50
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Something confuses me with this one.

I am assuming they don't carry guns in Canada. I would get to the top/bottom of the thing and just tell them to f off when they asked who I was and walk away.

Or am I missing something?
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Old 24th December 2019, 01:40 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
In the USA, as far as I know, a citizen is not required to actually carry an ID card/passport just while out and about. They are required to identify themselves truthfully to the police when asked.

How does this work in Canada?

Ranb
No ID needed while going about daily life except:
Must have driver's licence when driving.
Must have valid Possession and Acquisition licence (PAL) when in possession of firearm.
Required to truthfully identify self to police when police officer gives valid reason for asking for ID (i.e. Reasonable and probable grounds for detaining you for investigation of a criminal offence).
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Old 24th December 2019, 10:26 AM   #52
Bob001
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Something confuses me with this one.

I am assuming they don't carry guns in Canada. I would get to the top/bottom of the thing and just tell them to f off when they asked who I was and walk away.

Or am I missing something?
Why would you assume that? Canadian police are generally armed. And even in the UK, where most police are not armed, they can use force to effect an arrest. Running from the cops is usually a mistake everywhere.
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Old 24th December 2019, 11:33 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
No ID needed while going about daily life except:
Must have driver's licence when driving.
Must have valid Possession and Acquisition licence (PAL) when in possession of firearm.
Required to truthfully identify self to police when police officer gives valid reason for asking for ID (i.e. Reasonable and probable grounds for detaining you for investigation of a criminal offence).
This comes full circle a bit, because one thing that stood out to me about the old JREF Forums was the theme of pushing back when police invent an authority they were not given by the state. Randi was a hero for doing so was the consensus.

In this case, trying to enforce a rule created by a building management company, instead of enforcing a law created by the legislature.

Other rules that are not laws include: if you want to pass on an elevator keep to the left, shower before swimming in the public pool, no shoes on the pool deck, length swimming in alternating lanes of clockwise/counterclockwise directions, one person at a time on the swingset, full house beats a flush. Break them, don't break them; no crime is being committed, the police have no jurisdiction here.
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Old 24th December 2019, 12:40 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
This comes full circle a bit, because one thing that stood out to me about the old JREF Forums was the theme of pushing back when police invent an authority they were not given by the state. Randi was a hero for doing so was the consensus.

In this case, trying to enforce a rule created by a building management company, instead of enforcing a law created by the legislature.
....
She was in a Metro station. That would be public space, operated by the government.
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Old 24th December 2019, 12:49 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
She was in a Metro station. That would be public space, operated by the government.
Still are rules and not laws though, unless thou must holdeth escalator hand rails is written into the legislation.
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Old 24th December 2019, 12:56 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The cop's original "offense" was to tell the woman "Hold on to the handrail." Being it's Canada, I'll bet he even said "Please." To respond "No way, and you can't make me" strikes me as the wrong place to draw a line in the sand.
Seems like it would depend a lot on context.

I'm happy to live in a world where Canadians, at least, still feel safe in defying petty tyranny from their police.
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Old 24th December 2019, 01:08 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
Still are rules and not laws though, unless thou must holdeth escalator hand rails is written into the legislation.
In some circumstances, particularly government facilities, "rules" have the force of law. I think we can all agree that the cop overreacted. But so did the passenger. And any place, public or private, can impose reasonable conditions for providing service and eject people who fail to comply. "Try not to fall down the moving stairs" is not an unreasonable condition. He could probably have ordered her to leave and arrested her for trespassing if she refused.

As I said, mature adults pick their battles. "No, you can't make me" is just childish.
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Old 24th December 2019, 01:52 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
She was in a Metro station. That would be public space, operated by the government.
Aright, a rule posted by a government pencil pusher, as opposed to a law enacted by the legislature.

My point being, that no law was broken.

The police are not involved unless they decide unilaterally, and without public permission, that they have expanded their powers.
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Old 25th December 2019, 12:40 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
In some circumstances, particularly government facilities, "rules" have the force of law. I think we can all agree that the cop overreacted. But so did the passenger. And any place, public or private, can impose reasonable conditions for providing service and eject people who fail to comply. "Try not to fall down the moving stairs" is not an unreasonable condition. He could probably have ordered her to leave and arrested her for trespassing if she refused.

As I said, mature adults pick their battles. "No, you can't make me" is just childish.
Under what authority? It was a public place and a public place in Canada is just that - a public place. Police in Canada must have a court order to remove peaceful people from a public place unless there is a situation of legal arrest which necessitates a person being moved.

edit: Note - it should go without saying that police can remove people from a public place in the case of an emergency for the protection of their lives or the lives of others.
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Last edited by rockinkt; 25th December 2019 at 12:43 AM. Reason: see above
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Old 26th December 2019, 04:18 AM   #60
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In the UK you can have local bylaws, which have full legal status. Does Canada have similar?
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Old 27th December 2019, 06:37 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
In some circumstances, particularly government facilities, "rules" have the force of law. I think we can all agree that the cop overreacted. But so did the passenger. And any place, public or private, can impose reasonable conditions for providing service and eject people who fail to comply. "Try not to fall down the moving stairs" is not an unreasonable condition. He could probably have ordered her to leave and arrested her for trespassing if she refused.

As I said, mature adults pick their battles. "No, you can't make me" is just childish.
The Supreme Court of Canada disagrees with you. You say it's "childish" but the person in question is not a child. They are an adult. This is one adult telling another adult who is a complete stranger how to live their life. To which my attitude is "mind your own business, buddy." The unreasonability of it is the presumptiveness of authority over another citizen by virtue of having a badge. "This badge allows me to order you around." I don't like it. No sir, I do not.
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Old 27th December 2019, 03:04 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
.....
"This badge allows me to order you around." I don't like it. No sir, I do not.
Yes, actually, to a degree it does. She won her case. She was right and the cop was wrong. But how much time and money did it take her to prove it? Alternatively, if she had put her hand on the handrail for a few seconds the matter would have been over. If she had produced ID when asked, at worst she would have gotten a ticket that she could later have had dismissed. But no, she was so right that she was handcuffed and arrested. In the U.S., that might have meant spending a weekend in jail, if she had to wait for a Monday-morning arraignment. The cop might have added a "resisting arrest" charge, a felony that would have given her an arrest record even if it was dropped.

Why is this worth it?
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Old 27th December 2019, 05:36 PM   #63
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It would have set a wrongful precedent. That should be easy to understand.
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Old 28th December 2019, 05:19 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
In the UK you can have local bylaws, which have full legal status. Does Canada have similar?
Local governments (cities, towns, municipalities) have the authority to make bylaws which have legal standing on certain matters. Enforcing bylaws is limited to tickets or Long Form Informations laid pertaining to the more serious offences which require a summons to appear in court.
The power of arrest is not available as an option for bylaw enforcement.
Provincial laws supersede Municipal bylaws as does Federal law.
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"I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt

Last edited by rockinkt; 28th December 2019 at 05:26 AM.
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