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Tags New Zealand incidents , transgender incidents , transgender issues

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Old 11th June 2019, 07:11 PM   #2841
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Quite likely, but I want to focus less on motives and more on the factual inaccuracy since discussion can be more dispassionate that way.
Fair enough.
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Old 11th June 2019, 07:14 PM   #2842
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
They don't all differ across cultures. Certain differences are cross-cultural, such as in psychological traits like agreeableness or neuroticism.

Whether or not all cultures even recognize the differences, there are plenty of studies which observed them.
You are contradicting yourself, if many of the traits typically associated with one sex differ across cultures then there can't be plenty of studies which observed them to be invariant across cultures.
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Old 11th June 2019, 07:25 PM   #2843
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
You are contradicting yourself, if many of the traits typically associated with one sex differ across cultures then there can't be plenty of studies which observed them to be invariant across cultures.
You misunderstand, though I admit I didn't phrase it that clearly. Some of the differences between men and women are invariant across cultures. The differences I'm talking about are between men and women, not between one culture and another.
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Old 11th June 2019, 07:51 PM   #2844
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You misunderstand, though I admit I didn't phrase it that clearly. Some of the differences between men and women are invariant across cultures. The differences I'm talking about are between men and women, not between one culture and another.
Even if we accept that some behavioral, cultural or psychological traits typically associated with one sex are invariant across cultures then it still doesn't support Ron's contention that the association of such traits to one sex isn't a social construct. For there are many, many such traits which are clearly not invariant across cultures. Even the simplest example such as "boys like blue and girls like pink" was the other way around just 200 years ago in our own culture.

As for agreeableness and neuroticism being invariant across cultures, I'm assuming you're referring to the studies done on the "Big Five" model? Those studies, while purporting to be cross-cultural, are effectively mono-cultural - they study affluent university populations in urban centers in the developed world. Ever since the time of colonialism and the global victory of capitalism there has been a huge cultural convergence, especially in affluent urban populations around the world. When such studies are instead done on hunter-gatherer and other indigenous populations away from the "modern world" they fail to replicate, see for example here.

So to sum up, I disagree that there are such traits which are invariant across cultures, but even if we accept that there are some such invariant traits then Ron's contention still fails because almost all such traits which are typically associated with one sex (as per the definition of gender) fail to even be invariant across the almost-mono-cultural modern capitalist world.
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Last edited by caveman1917; 11th June 2019 at 07:54 PM.
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Old 11th June 2019, 08:04 PM   #2845
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
I'm just gonna leave a gentle reminder that there's a big difference between Gender and Gender Roles.
Can anyone think of an example of someone doing "gender" that doesn't involve enacting gender roles?
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Old 11th June 2019, 08:23 PM   #2846
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Going back to some earlier discussion regarding transitioning kids, and the problems and dangers involved with that, I've been reading a bit about Desmond Napoles, a prepubescent "drag kid" who has become a minor celebrity. And it's disturbing. While Desmond may not be technically transgender, there seems to be a lot of similar dynamics at play.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/...tity-ideology/
One of the things that jumped out at me, although it was only mentioned in passing in the article, is that Desmond has been diagnosed as being on the autism spectrum. The article doesn't explore the significance of that diagnosis, but I wasn't surprised by it because I think it's directly linked to the dysfunction going on.
That's alarming.
Quote:
Desmond’s new career obviously keeps his mom very busy. She calls herself his “dragager” and runs his Instagram account, which has more than 150,000 followers. She also oversees his busy schedule of media appearances.
I wonder how much money the kid brings in for his parents.
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Old 11th June 2019, 08:25 PM   #2847
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
So to sum up, I disagree that there are such traits which are invariant across cultures
That would be absolutely shocking, if true. Seriously, think about the implications here. You're basically claiming that testosterone has no effect on behavior. And there is simply so much evidence that this is not true, that testosterone does affect behavior. And if testosterone affects behavior, then that will lead to invariant differences between men and women, because different cultures don't have different versions of testosterone.
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Old 11th June 2019, 09:17 PM   #2848
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That would be absolutely shocking, if true. Seriously, think about the implications here. You're basically claiming that testosterone has no effect on behavior. And there is simply so much evidence that this is not true, that testosterone does affect behavior. And if testosterone affects behavior, then that will lead to invariant differences between men and women, because different cultures don't have different versions of testosterone.
Just because testosterone (like many other things) affects behavior doesn't necessarily mean that it does this differently for men and women, nor that it does this in an invariant way across cultures, nor that the correlation is a one-sided causation.

For the first point, testosterone has been linked just as much to aggressive behavior in women as in men. See for example this study on female inmates which replicates similar studies on male inmates, and specifically note that having high testosterone for women is still less testosterone, in absolute levels, than having low testosterone for men. This suggests that it is not so much absolute levels of testosterone (which differ in men and women) that affects behavior but how much an individual's level is above the normal baseline level for their sex. High-testosterone women are more aggressive than low-testosterone men even though the former still have lower absolute testosterone levels than the latter, as such, even though testosterone affects behavior, it doesn't support the contention of a (cross-culturally invariant) gender difference in said behavior.

For the second point, testosterone affects behavior but that doesn't necessarily mean that it does this in the same way independent of the socio-cultural environment. The socio-cultural environment may play a significant role in which behaviors are affected and how they are affected. I don't know of any specific cross-cultural (as in hunter-gatherer or indigenous populations) studies done on the testosterone-behavior relation, but there are some studies that show that, for example, testosterone may cause either aggression or submission depending on the socio-cultural status of the individual in question.

For the third point, the socio-cultural context and associated behaviors may cause changes in testosterone levels. There doesn't seem to be much research into this, but preliminary studies have shown some support for this contention. The correlation testosterone-behavior isn't necessarily one-sided.

To sum up, in order for these hormonal effects to support the contention of an invariant gender difference it would have to be shown that 1) the correlation is a (mostly) one-sided causation, 2) the hormones affect behavior differently in men and women, and 3) they affect the same behavior in the same way across cultures.
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Old 11th June 2019, 09:31 PM   #2849
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
I'm just gonna leave a gentle reminder that there's a big difference between Gender and Gender Roles. Only the later is a construct of human culture.
Here is what Wikipedia has to say about gender:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender

Quote:
Gender is the range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity. Depending on the context, these characteristics may include biological sex (i.e., the state of being male, female, or an intersex variation), sex-based social structures (i.e., gender roles), or gender identity.[1][2][3] Most cultures use a gender binary, having two genders (boys/men and girls/women);[4][5] those who exist outside these groups fall under the umbrella term non-binary or genderqueer. Some societies have specific genders besides "man" and "woman", such as the hijras of South Asia; these are often referred to as third genders (and fourth genders, etc).

Sexologist John Money introduced the terminological distinction between biological sex and gender as a role in 1955. Before his work, it was uncommon to use the word gender to refer to anything but grammatical categories.[1][2] However, Money's meaning of the word did not become widespread until the 1970s, when feminist theory embraced the concept of a distinction between biological sex and the social construct of gender. Today, the distinction is followed in some contexts, especially the social sciences[6][7] and documents written by the World Health Organization (WHO).[3]

In other contexts, including some areas of the social sciences, gender includes sex or replaces it.[1][2] For instance, in non-human animal research, gender is commonly used to refer to the biological sex of the animals.[2] This change in the meaning of gender can be traced to the 1980s. In 1993, the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) started to use gender instead of sex.[8] Later, in 2011, the FDA reversed its position and began using sex as the biological classification and gender as "a person's self representation as male or female, or how that person is responded to by social institutions based on the individual's gender presentation."[9]

The social sciences have a branch devoted to gender studies. Other sciences, such as sexology and neuroscience, are also interested in the subject. The social sciences sometimes approach gender as a social construct, and gender studies particularly do, while research in the natural sciences investigates whether biological differences in males and females influence the development of gender in humans; both inform debate about how far biological differences influence the formation of gender identity. In some English literature, there is also a trichotomy between biological sex, psychological gender, and social gender role. This framework first appeared in a feminist paper on transsexualism in 1978.[2][10]
TL;DR: gender is a social construct; sex is a biological classification.
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Old 11th June 2019, 10:49 PM   #2850
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Just because testosterone (like many other things) affects behavior doesn't necessarily mean that it does this differently for men and women, nor that it does this in an invariant way across cultures, nor that the correlation is a one-sided causation.
Women do not have the levels of testosterone that men have. So of course they won’t be affected the same. And culture doesn’t create hormone receptors in the body.

Quote:
For the first point, testosterone has been linked just as much to aggressive behavior in women as in men. See for example this study on female inmates which replicates similar studies on male inmates, and specifically note that having high testosterone for women is still less testosterone, in absolute levels, than having low testosterone for men. This suggests that it is not so much absolute levels of testosterone (which differ in men and women) that affects behavior but how much an individual's level is above the normal baseline level for their sex.
It suggests nothing of the sort, since the effects of testosterone are far more extensive than just aggression. And even for aggression, the fact that the distributions overlap doesn’t mean that the distributions are the same. They aren’t. Your conclusion simply doesn’t follow.

Quote:
For the second point, testosterone affects behavior but that doesn't necessarily mean that it does this in the same way independent of the socio-cultural environment. The socio-cultural environment may play a significant role in which behaviors are affected and how they are affected.
This is nonsense. Again, hormone receptors are not determined by culture. You don’t seem to understand the implications of your claim.

Quote:
I don't know of any specific cross-cultural (as in hunter-gatherer or indigenous populations) studies done on the testosterone-behavior relation, but there are some studies that show that, for example, testosterone may cause either aggression or submission depending on the socio-cultural status of the individual in question.
The particulars of status may be influenced by culture, but the existence of social hierarchies is cross cultural, and in fact cross species even into other phyla. Adherence to a hierarchy (which explains the increase in either aggression or submission, depending on status) can thus indeed be cross cultural.

Quote:
For the third point, the socio-cultural context and associated behaviors may cause changes in testosterone levels. There doesn't seem to be much research into this, but preliminary studies have shown some support for this contention. The correlation testosterone-behavior isn't necessarily one-sided.
It doesn’t need to be in order for there to be a difference between men and women.

Quote:
To sum up, in order for these hormonal effects to support the contention of an invariant gender difference
There are invariant sex differences. Saying gender difference when you are talking about biological sex is a recipe for confusion.
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Old 11th June 2019, 11:22 PM   #2851
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Women do not have the levels of testosterone that men have. So of course they won’t be affected the same.
Then why do women with high testosterone show higher aggression than men with low testosterone even though the women with high testosterone still have lower absolute testosterone levels than the men with low testosterone?

Quote:
It suggests nothing of the sort, since the effects of testosterone are far more extensive than just aggression. And even for aggression, the fact that the distributions overlap doesn’t mean that the distributions are the same. They aren’t. Your conclusion simply doesn’t follow.
I never said anything about distributions overlapping, let alone distributions being the same.

Quote:
This is nonsense. Again, hormone receptors are not determined by culture. You don’t seem to understand the implications of your claim.
I never said that hormone receptors are determined by culture.

Quote:
The particulars of status may be influenced by culture, but the existence of social hierarchies is cross cultural, and in fact cross species even into other phyla. Adherence to a hierarchy (which explains the increase in either aggression or submission, depending on status) can thus indeed be cross cultural.
Existence of social hierarchies is not cross-cultural and definitely not cross-species.

Quote:
It doesn’t need to be in order for there to be a difference between men and women.
I never said it did.

Quote:
There are invariant sex differences. Saying gender difference when you are talking about biological sex is a recipe for confusion.
Of course there are invariant sex differences, males produce sperm and females produce ova. However we're talking about behaviors that are associated with sex, the correct term for that is gender differences.

All in all we have three straw men, one observably false claim, and one wrong claim on terminology. Try again but do better this time.
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Old 12th June 2019, 02:37 AM   #2852
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Because men have always covered each other's butts. If they cover a woman's with anything at all, it's only a skimpy transparent bikini.
Well, that's not a sweeping generalisation.
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Old 12th June 2019, 02:39 AM   #2853
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
theprestige objected to this comment as sexist, but I want to object to it on slightly different terms, namely inaccuracy. Advocacy for transgender rights to enter female-only spaces is not limited to men, plenty of women advocate for it. Nor is opposition to it limited to women, plenty of men object to it as well. It also gives short shrift to all the fathers who do so much to protect their daughters.
Pfft. The only reason why fathers protect their daughters is because they view them as their legitimate property.









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Old 12th June 2019, 02:59 AM   #2854
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The SKERFS are at it again.
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I AGREE
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:01 AM   #2855
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
If one takes many thousands of years and practically every civilisation (organised society) that left a mark as a guide, it's the men who defend, who fight for their people, territory (nation) and culture. Disable the men psychologically and everything is there for the taking. That's what I meant by "pathologising masculinity" - several generations of stealthily indoctrinating, brainwashing people into perceiving as self-evident truth that masculine traits are redundant, if not hateful, because we're "progressing", see?.

Most "progressives" would be rather surprised were they were to take the trouble to study the personalities of great male creative geniuses over the centuries, whether they were painters, sculptors, writers, composers, inventors, whatever - the majority were garrulous, mercurial alpha males, many outright fighting men. It's very hard to find any that were reported as the "sensitive" type.

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Old 12th June 2019, 04:31 AM   #2856
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Just because testosterone (like many other things) affects behavior doesn't necessarily mean that it does this differently for men and women, nor that it does this in an invariant way across cultures, nor that the correlation is a one-sided causation.
What are you talking about? Testosterone is a behaviour modifier, and men and women don't have it in the same quantity AT ALL. Obviously, to anyone who understands hormones, that will lead to differences in behaviour between the two sexes.

Before recently, "gender" and "sex" was essentially understood to be the same thing. The social construct isn't gender, it's how men and women are expected to behave and what roles they are expected to fill.
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Old 12th June 2019, 05:01 AM   #2857
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I suppose the point I was trying to get people to see in an earlier ramble is this;

that the "trans-women" lobby is being uncritically endorsed in the corporate media to persuade people that there is something intrinsically admirable about a man wanting not only to be 'more like" a woman, but actually become one.

Because women are better than men, see? All smart and hence progressive people know this is self-evident. Anyone who still isn't 100% on-message is a misogynist, racist, homophobic, nazi bigot.
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Old 12th June 2019, 05:25 AM   #2858
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Existence of social hierarchies is not cross-cultural and definitely not cross-species.
Are you seriously this clueless? There are no hierarchy-free human societies. None. And there are tons of animals with social hierarchies.
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Old 12th June 2019, 05:59 AM   #2859
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What are you talking about? Testosterone is a behaviour modifier, and men and women don't have it in the same quantity AT ALL. Obviously, to anyone who understands hormones, that will lead to differences in behaviour between the two sexes.
And obviously to anyone who understands basic reasoning that doesn't imply that at all. I'll ask you the same question I asked Zig: Why do women with high testosterone show more aggression than men with low testosterone even though the former still have lower absolute testosterone levels than the latter? Two standard deviations above the average level for women is still lower than two standard deviations below the average for men. The answer should be obvious: because the behavioral effects of testosterone aren't based on the absolute level of testosterone but on the individual's level relative to the normal baseline level for their sex.
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Old 12th June 2019, 06:05 AM   #2860
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Are you seriously this clueless? There are no hierarchy-free human societies. None. And there are tons of animals with social hierarchies.
If there are no hierarchy-free human societies then why are (or rather were) they so ubiquitous that recent research has started focusing on models to explain this phenomenon? You're the clueless one Zig.
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Old 12th June 2019, 06:08 AM   #2861
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
And obviously to anyone who understands basic reasoning that doesn't imply that at all. I'll ask you the same question I asked Zig: Why do women with high testosterone show more aggression than men with low testosterone even though the former still have lower absolute testosterone levels than the latter? The answer should be obvious: because the behavioral effects of testosterone aren't based on the absolute level of testosterone but on the individual's level relative to the normal baseline level for their sex.
Your conclusion doesn't follow from the available evidence. Aggression is not controlled by testosterone alone. Female inmates are in a different environment than male inmates. A high-T female in prison with other females is going to act differently than a high-T female in prison with males, and a low-T male in prison with males is going to act differently than a low-T male in prison with females. So you cannot directly compare a high-T female in an all-female environment with a low-T male in an all male environment and attribute all the differences to testosterone alone. That doesn't make any sense. That's not how multi-variable problems work.
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Old 12th June 2019, 06:14 AM   #2862
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Your conclusion doesn't follow from the available evidence. Aggression is not controlled by testosterone alone. Female inmates are in a different environment than male inmates. A high-T female in prison with other females is going to act differently than a high-T female in prison with males, and a low-T male in prison with males is going to act differently than a low-T male in prison with females. So you cannot directly compare a high-T female in an all-female environment with a low-T male in an all male environment and attribute all the differences to testosterone alone. That doesn't make any sense. That's not how multi-variable problems work.
So testosterone may affect behavior in different ways depending on the socio-cultural environment of the individual? That's funny, because I distinctly remember someone calling such argument "nonsense."

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
For the second point, testosterone affects behavior but that doesn't necessarily mean that it does this in the same way independent of the socio-cultural environment. The socio-cultural environment may play a significant role in which behaviors are affected and how they are affected.
This is nonsense. Again, hormone receptors are not determined by culture. You don’t seem to understand the implications of your claim.
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Old 12th June 2019, 06:16 AM   #2863
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
If there are no hierarchy-free human societies then why are (or rather were) they so ubiquitous that recent research has started focusing on models to explain this phenomenon? You're the clueless one Zig.
That's hilarious. Your first source is specifically talking about political power, but there are many forms of hierarchies besides politics, and they often exist in parallel. Furthermore, it looked as societies with "a low level of ranking or stratification by class". Low, not non-existent.

Your second source is a mathematical modelling paper, not an observation of actual humans. It necessarily simplified compared to real human behavior, and while it may be useful to understand factors which limit hierarchies, it does show that there are any societies without any hierarchies.
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Old 12th June 2019, 06:17 AM   #2864
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Again I don't care. I don't care if you split the human brain open and find some perfect "Dial a Gender" setting in there with 100% perfect accuracy.

I just want it to be used consistently and not only in a constant shifting game of "We can use the standards when it helps us, you can't when it doesn't" or "We can subvert the standards, but the standards aren't allowed to exist."
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Old 12th June 2019, 06:19 AM   #2865
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
So testosterone may affect behavior in different ways depending on the socio-cultural environment of the individual? That's funny, because I distinctly remember someone calling such argument "nonsense."
It's nonsense to think that the effects are only socio-cultural. And whether you are surrounded by all males or all females isn't a social construct, there's an obvious biological difference there. But then, you seem to be making an art form of missing the obvious.
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Old 12th June 2019, 06:20 AM   #2866
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's hilarious. Your first source is specifically talking about political power, but there are many forms of hierarchies besides politics, and they often exist in parallel. Furthermore, it looked as societies with "a low level of ranking or stratification by class". Low, not non-existent.

Your second source is a mathematical modelling paper, not an observation of actual humans.it is necessarily simplified compared to real human behavior, and while it may be useful to understand factors which limit hierarchies, it does show that there are any societies without any hierarchies.
Both of them contain extensive references to papers observing such societies. Hence the need for models for them in the first place.
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Old 12th June 2019, 06:25 AM   #2867
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's nonsense to think that the effects are only socio-cultural. And whether you are surrounded by all males or all females isn't a social construct, there's an obvious biological difference there. But then, you seem to be making an art form of missing the obvious.
First you accuse me of claiming that only testosterone accounts for the differences in behavior, now you accuse me of claiming that only socio-cultural environments account for the differences in behavior. All the while I have not held either of those positions, my position has been all this time that testosterone does affect behavior but that it doesn't do this directly, that the specific behaviors it affects and how those behaviors are affected depends on the socio-cultural environment. And whether you are surrounded by all males or all females is almost by definition a socio-cultural environmental difference.
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Old 12th June 2019, 06:26 AM   #2868
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Both of them contain extensive references to papers observing such societies. Hence the need for models for them in the first place.
What is the best example of a more-or-less egalitarian human society?
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Old 12th June 2019, 06:31 AM   #2869
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Also, the studies aren't limited to inmate populations, although studies in other settings are rare. A review paper of several studies notes (my highlight):

Quote:
We review the literature on aggression in women with an emphasis on laboratory experimentation and hormonal and brain mechanisms. Women tend to engage in more indirect forms of aggression (e.g., spreading rumors) than other types of aggression. In laboratory studies, women are less aggressive than men, but provocation attenuates this difference. In the real world, women are just as likely to aggress against their romantic partner as men are, but men cause more serious physical and psychological harm. A very small minority of women are also sexually violent. Women are susceptible to alcohol-related aggression, but this type of aggression may be limited to women high in trait aggression. Fear of being harmed is a robust inhibitor of direct aggression in women. There are too few studies and most are underpowered to detect unique neural mechanisms associated with aggression in women. Testosterone shows the same small, positive relationship with aggression in women as in men. The role of cortisol is unclear, although some evidence suggests that women who are high in testosterone and low in cortisol show heightened aggression. Under some circumstances, oxytocin may increase aggression by enhancing reactivity to provocation and simultaneously lowering perceptions of danger that normally inhibit many women from retaliating. There is some evidence that high levels of estradiol and progesterone are associated with low levels of aggression. We highlight that more gender-specific theory-driven hypothesis testing is needed with larger samples of women and aggression paradigms relevant to women.
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Old 12th June 2019, 06:37 AM   #2870
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
What is the best example of a more-or-less egalitarian human society?
The Batek people is a good example, though I'm not sure if it's the best - I don't know about all, or even most, hunter-gatherer societies although egalitarianism is more the norm than the exception for such societies.
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Old 12th June 2019, 06:39 AM   #2871
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
And obviously to anyone who understands basic reasoning that doesn't imply that at all.
It absolutely does.

Quote:
Why do women with high testosterone show more aggression than men with low testosterone even though the former still have lower absolute testosterone levels than the latter?
1) Testosterone isn't the only chemical floating in your system.
2) Evidence please.

Quote:
The answer should be obvious: because the behavioral effects of testosterone aren't based on the absolute level of testosterone but on the individual's level relative to the normal baseline level for their sex.
What does that even mean? How would that even work? Why would an individual woman's system care about the statistical baseline?
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Old 12th June 2019, 06:57 AM   #2872
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Both of them contain extensive references to papers observing such societies. Hence the need for models for them in the first place.
None of them are hierarchy-free societies. Their political hierarchies are pretty (but not completely) flat, but that doesn't make them hierarchy-free. Hierarchies are built into our DNA, from well before we were humans, or even mammals. Your link about Japanese rugby players even supports that: testosterone response is intimately linked to hierarchies. That's not just a social construct, that's deep biology.
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Old 12th June 2019, 07:04 AM   #2873
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
2) Evidence please.
He actually did present evidence. Female inmates with high testosterone were more aggressive than male inmates with low testosterone. But it doesn't mean what he think it means. As I pointed out above, these are not equivalent scenarios, since prisons are sex-segregated and men are much stronger than women (which radically changes the calculus for aggression). A low-T male in a female prison might well be more aggressive than a high-T female in a female prison, and a high-T female in a male prison might well be less aggressive than a low-T male in a male prison.
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Old 12th June 2019, 07:11 AM   #2874
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
First you accuse me of claiming that only testosterone accounts for the differences in behavior
Well, yes. That's the only way to explain the conclusion you draw from the data you present. Absent that assumption, your conclusion cannot follow.

Quote:
now you accuse me of claiming that only socio-cultural environments account for the differences in behavior.
Yes again. Because if that's not the case, then there must be cross-cultural differences in the behaviors of men and women. If there are no cross-cultural differences, then culture determines everything.

Quote:
All the while I have not held either of those positions, my position has been all this time that testosterone does affect behavior but that it doesn't do this directly,
"Directly" is poorly defined here. It doesn't matter if it's mediated by other mechanisms (as it must be if neurons don't use testosterone as a neurotransmitter), there's still a biological effect of testosterone on behavior. And biology is cross-cultural.

Quote:
And whether you are surrounded by all males or all females is almost by definition a socio-cultural environmental difference.
The biological differences (such as strength) between men and women is cross-cultural. If you want to include such differences within your definition of "socio-cultural", then you have simply made those aspects of culture universal, and thus cross-cultural as well.
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Old 12th June 2019, 07:20 AM   #2875
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It absolutely does.
It absolutely does not.

Quote:
1) Testosterone isn't the only chemical floating in your system.
Complain to Zig, he's the one who brought it up.

Quote:
2) Evidence please.
Already provided for inmate populations and in the previous post for general populations.

Quote:
What does that even mean? How would that even work? Why would an individual woman's system care about the statistical baseline?
It works the same way as the plenty of other substances for which the same dosage has different responses in women than in men, because their response to different dosages is different. Again, by your logic women with high testosterone levels should show less testosterone-affected behavior than men with low testosterone levels, which is false.
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Old 12th June 2019, 07:24 AM   #2876
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
None of them are hierarchy-free societies. Their political hierarchies are pretty (but not completely) flat, but that doesn't make them hierarchy-free.
Which hierarchy do, for example, the Batek people show then?

Quote:
Hierarchies are built into our DNA, from well before we were humans, or even mammals.
Argument by assertion is hardly convincing.

Quote:
Your link about Japanese rugby players even supports that: testosterone response is intimately linked to hierarchies. That's not just a social construct, that's deep biology.
My link about the rugby players doesn't discriminate between the two hypotheses, it is equally consistent with either of them.
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Old 12th June 2019, 07:39 AM   #2877
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Well, yes. That's the only way to explain the conclusion you draw from the data you present. Absent that assumption, your conclusion cannot follow.
That makes no sense. The only way to explain the conclusion that the effects of testosterone are partially determined by culture is to assume that the effects of testosterone are not determined by culture?

Quote:
Yes again. Because if that's not the case, then there must be cross-cultural differences in the behaviors of men and women. If there are no cross-cultural differences, then culture determines everything.
That also makes no sense, if there are no cross-cultural differences then culture determines nothing.

Quote:
"Directly" is poorly defined here. It doesn't matter if it's mediated by other mechanisms (as it must be if neurons don't use testosterone as a neurotransmitter), there's still a biological effect of testosterone on behavior. And biology is cross-cultural.
Biology is cross-cultural but that doesn't mean that its behavioral effect is cross-cultural. Look, this is hardly contentious or anything, see for example here:
Quote:
Over the past decade or so our principal research activities have investigated the extent to which levels of testosterone can be associated with certain male-typical behaviours. As you might expect, the answer is by no means straightforward. For one thing, hormones do not directly change behaviour; they influence the expression of a behaviour within appropriate environmental/ social contexts. When studying human behaviours, identifying which environmental/social contexts might be important remains a significant challenge to researchers trying to identify hormone–behaviour relationships.
Quote:
The biological differences (such as strength) between men and women is cross-cultural. If you want to include such differences within your definition of "socio-cultural", then you have simply made those aspects of culture universal, and thus cross-cultural as well.
Physical strength is not a behavioral difference. Maybe you somewhere lost the plot along the way, but the contention under consideration is whether there exist universal gender differences (ie differences in behavior associated with one sex which are invariant across cultures), a contention which you supported by bringing up that testosterone affects behavior. However the mere fact that testosterone affects behavior is not sufficient to support that contention, in order to support that contention it also needs to be shown that 1) testosterone affects behavior differently in men and women and 2) that it affects behavior in the same way across cultures.
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Old 12th June 2019, 08:03 AM   #2878
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's nonsense to think that the effects are only socio-cultural. And whether you are surrounded by all males or all females isn't a social construct, there's an obvious biological difference there. But then, you seem to be making an art form of missing the obvious.
Anarchy won't work if humans are naturally self-hierarching.
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Old 12th June 2019, 08:07 AM   #2879
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Anarchy won't work if humans are naturally self-hierarching.
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Old 12th June 2019, 08:35 AM   #2880
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Social hierarchies are simply the result of organizational efficiency when instituting division of labor. If there were no labor that required division (say, technological paradise where machines do all work for us) then we'd have no need for hierarchy of any kind. At least until the machines rebel, in which case we'd need to organize a military to fight back.
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