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Old 22nd March 2019, 04:37 AM   #361
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
<snip>
Intervention by Cthulhu?
Even eldritch horrors from beyond normal space-time don't want to get involved in this mess.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 04:38 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So your boss puts you on a zero-hours contract. You find yourself kicking your heels at home. You work very few hours so you go down to the Benefits office. They put you on Universal Credit. Five weeks later you have a few coins in your pocket for food, the bills are mounting up, interest is accruing on your credit card at an alarming rate because of you can only make 'minumum payment' you are still waiting for your Univefrsal Credit benefit to come through.

In the meantime you discover your boss has taken on a Romanian worker paying him a fraction of what you were being paid, as in Romania, average monthly wage is £200, so he is ecstatic to be now earning £600 pcm.

Does the government or the EU care? No sirree. The EU was a capitalist idea.

Employers love the idea of cheaper labour and raw materials.

Enter the Labour party and trade unions.

It takes someone like Jeremy Corbyn to stand up to the stripping away of workers rights (and that includes all of you who like to consider yourselves middle class or professional class).

No wonder the Tory press hates him and defames him at every opportunity.
Yes, that is the oft-quoted and well worn narrative but it simply isn't supported by fact. As the study I linked to showed, the lowering of wages caused by immigrants simply hasn't happened.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 04:38 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
The issue of expatriate voting is an interesting one and linked to the question of contribution to and involvement in society as much as anything else.
Does someone really deserve the right to vote in a country when they're no-longer contributing to it (via taxation) or involved with it on a day-to-day basis, merely because they're citizens.
Perhaps a limited franchise, parliamentary elections and referenda only?

I'd also point out that UK citizens living outside the UK only lose their franchise after fifteen years, if they were registered to vote before leaving.
I personally don't think people who have decided to leave the country should really be given a consideration although I can see an argument in this case since it was going to affect them directly this time around.

I would rather more people IN the country had the right to vote first. Such as more Non-EU citizens who are resident here, 16/17 year olds, etc.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 04:41 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
How? She can't be ousted as leader of the party.
Presumably the 'Men in grey suits' that did Thatcher in. A quiet tap on the shoulder, a few words about rebels potentially supporting a motion of no confidence, and out she goes.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 04:41 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I think it would. Expect it to present preconditions that would make any thus achieved deal inferior to this one.



I would be too in their shoes, for obvious reasons. The other red line that can be sacrificed is an independent trade policy.

You know, to be like Norway.

Wouldn't it be terrible if we were like Norway and Switzerland?" Really? They're rich. They're happy. They're self governing.
--Nigel Farage, 2013

My point is this deal is not the only possible deal. It's the only deal that can be done with British red lines.



Yes. But a new general election would mean a new government, a new PM and, perhaps, a different Brexit platform and strategy. There are sensible approaches still: accept a deal that makes UK spayed and neutered both (Norway option), with a clause that allows UK to move out of single market and/or customs union, pending a few conditions. Most conditions would be regarding the Irish border, for obvious reasons. Allow for a plan that takes UK out of EU first, then progress further to single market and customs union and other institutions, slowly excising the country out. You can't upend 40 years of integration in two years and not break all the eggs, leaving the EU would be a process taking 20 years or more by necessity.

Of course should the electorate wise up in the meantime that too must be taken into account.

That's the proper, democratic way to go about Brexit. If there is a new election maybe the new government will use it. They can always blame Theresa May for putting them in this situation in the first place.

McHrozni
The one danger with a GE is that there is significant chance that you end up with a nutjob Brexiteer Tory PM who thinks no deal is a good idea and has a majority in Parliament to make it happen.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 04:41 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I think it would. Expect it to present preconditions that would make any thus achieved deal inferior to this one.



I would be too in their shoes, for obvious reasons. The other red line that can be sacrificed is an independent trade policy.

You know, to be like Norway.

Wouldn't it be terrible if we were like Norway and Switzerland?" Really? They're rich. They're happy. They're self governing.
--Nigel Farage, 2013McHrozni

I wonder if Nige knows about this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Govern...Fund_of_Norway
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Old 22nd March 2019, 04:42 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
By supporting and enabling the Tory Brexit that will set fire to the workers protections provided by the EU.
No he doesn't support it. His Brexit keeps the UK in the customs union but restricts free movement of workers and protects workers rights.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 04:43 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
My point is this deal is not the only possible deal. It's the only deal that can be done with British red lines.
You're absolutely right but both of the major parties have the same critical red lines - which prevent a close relationship with the EU:
  • Both are against the "four freedoms" which removes EEA membership (i.e. a Norway-like deal) from the table
  • Both require the UK to have separate trade deals which removes Customs Union membership from the table

They're as deluded as each other
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Old 22nd March 2019, 04:45 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No he doesn't support it. His Brexit keeps the UK in the customs union but restricts free movement of workers and protects workers rights.
Except "his" Brexit is just as fantastical as those proposed by the arch-Brexiteers because it thinks that the UK can be a member of a Customs Union whilst having separate trade deals with countries which have EU trade deals.

In other words, his Brexit is unachievable.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 04:45 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No he doesn't support it. His Brexit keeps the UK in the customs union but restricts free movement of workers and protects workers rights.
He does support it. He doesn't oppose it in Parliament when given the chance. He just lets it happen.

His unicorns and ice cream Brexit dream is irrelevant since its not what is being proposed.

He's a ******* fraud.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 04:47 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
Presumably the 'Men in grey suits' that did Thatcher in. A quiet tap on the shoulder, a few words about rebels potentially supporting a motion of no confidence, and out she goes.
I doubt it. Margaret Thatcher wanted to lead, and so when she got the tap on the shoulder she knew she had to step down or be PM in name only. IMO Theresa May OTOH just wants to be PM and would tolerate being PMINO as long as she could stay in post.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 04:55 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So your boss puts you on a zero-hours contract. You find yourself kicking your heels at home. You work very few hours so you go down to the Benefits office. They put you on Universal Credit. Five weeks later you have a few coins in your pocket for food, the bills are mounting up, interest is accruing on your credit card at an alarming rate because of you can only make 'minimum payment' you are still waiting for your Universal Credit benefit to come through.

In the meantime you discover your boss has taken on a Romanian worker paying him a fraction of what you were being paid, as in Romania, average monthly wage is £200, so he is ecstatic to be now earning £600 pcm.
Will you be citing example of this actually happening?
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Old 22nd March 2019, 04:56 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Yes, that is the oft-quoted and well worn narrative but it simply isn't supported by fact. As the study I linked to showed, the lowering of wages caused by immigrants simply hasn't happened.
Indeed, ideological and xenophobic fantasies.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 04:57 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
The one danger with a GE is that there is significant chance that you end up with a nutjob Brexiteer Tory PM who thinks no deal is a good idea and has a majority in Parliament to make it happen.
True. But that would leave the UK with a functional government after Brexit. Right now that would be a cause for celebration.

It would also ensure the said PM and MPs and their party would eat the entirety of the blame, there is no one to pin it to if you campaigned on it and delivered.

Accountability, you know. Democracy at work.

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Old 22nd March 2019, 04:58 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
True. But that would leave the UK with a functional government after Brexit. Right now that would be a cause for celebration.

It would also ensure the said PM and MPs and their party would eat the entirety of the blame, there is no one to pin it to if you campaigned on it and delivered.

Accountability, you know. Democracy at work.

McHrozni
A functional government but not a functioning country sadly.

People would die. It's really not a political game.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 04:59 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
I'd like to share this if I may. Did you write it? Brilliant.
likewise
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 22nd March 2019, 04:59 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
I'd like to share this if I may. Did you write it? Brilliant.
It was posted on another forum by someone who said they saw it on The Poke. I have no idea what that is.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 04:59 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
You're absolutely right but both of the major parties have the same critical red lines - which prevent a close relationship with the EU:
  • Both are against the "four freedoms" which removes EEA membership (i.e. a Norway-like deal) from the table
  • Both require the UK to have separate trade deals which removes Customs Union membership from the table

They're as deluded as each other
True. But that's just one of the possibility, a customs border in the Irish sea is another.

My point isn't that there are palpatable alternatives, just that alternatives do exist, if someone should consider them.

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Old 22nd March 2019, 05:00 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
A functional government but not a functioning country sadly.

People would die. It's really not a political game.
It would be less bad than a no deal a week from now. Even if people still died, it would be proven who the executioner was. That too is worth a lot, come next election.

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Old 22nd March 2019, 05:04 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I personally don't think people who have decided to leave the country should really be given a consideration although I can see an argument in this case since it was going to affect them directly this time around.

I would rather more people IN the country had the right to vote first. Such as more Non-EU citizens who are resident here, 16/17 year olds, etc.
That's an interesting point; Jersey, Guernsey and the IoM already allow sixteen-year-olds to vote, as does Scotland.
Resident non-citizens can vote, for certain purposes, in certain countries. I have done so a couple of times.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 05:04 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
It was posted on another forum by someone who said they saw it on The Poke. I have no idea what that is.
https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2019/03/21...-anthem-times/
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Old 22nd March 2019, 05:05 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
What is needed are the 'men in grey suits' to turn up at no. 10 Downing Street, cart off May Thatcher-style, and put in place a proper leadership to take control of the runaway cart, all wheels flying off.
Your memory so short? They did that back in December. And they lost
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Old 22nd March 2019, 05:05 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No he doesn't support it. His Brexit keeps the UK in the customs union but restricts free movement of workers and protects workers rights.
He's doing bugger all to actually achieve this.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 05:05 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
It would be less bad than a no deal a week from now. Even if people still died, it would be proven who the executioner was. That too is worth a lot, come next election.

McHrozni
But the correct course of action at this point is not to exit the EU a week from now. Article 50 should be revoked until the people who want to leave can come up with a credible plan for it to happen.

Talk of General Elections, 2nd votes, new deals, or any of that nonsense has to saved until after the immediate threat is halted. And we can't keep having ticking time bombs and artificial deadlines.

Revoke it now.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 05:08 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
Thanks
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Old 22nd March 2019, 05:09 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
Thank you.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 05:10 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Everywhere seems to be reporting that Brexit is delayed now...but don't see anything that says the Government is bringing something to Parliament to make that happen. Or any date for MV3, or whether it will even be allowed to happen.
Kwasi Kwarteng has apparently said that a statutory instrument to delay Brexit will be laid before Parliament early next week, but hasn't yet given a timetable for this or MV3.

Meanwhile, the petition to revoke Article 50 has now passed 3 million signatures. At some point, even if the Government wants to ignore it, individual MPs will start noticing that there are a lot of voters speaking up here, and may be persuaded to reassess their employment futures if they do the same.

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Old 22nd March 2019, 05:15 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Speaking of failure. What's the latest on Farage's 'Trail if Jeers', anyone left?
Heard him on the Today programme, he claimed he walked 20 miles on Saturday and he will rejoin them this Saturday. And when asked after claiming the will of the people was increasing every week for a no deal exit how many would be there at the end he claimed 20 million.... in spirit.

He like his hero has realised that facts mean absolutely nothing these days so he can claim whatever he wants and simply lie. There are no negative consequences for his behaviour.

Interestingly he also stated if we had EU elections he would stand as the leader of the Brexit party, the one whose leader stepped down last week

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...islam-messages

As they say you are often judged by the company you keep, so what did she expect?
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Old 22nd March 2019, 05:17 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
The petition is currently at 2.6 million, it grew by 2 million in 24 hours. At this rate it's believable the Parliament will be facing five million signatures next week.
You can't ignore this and rant about "will of the people". You have to choose, it's one or the other.

McHrozni
16 million voted remain. 5 million is just a partial restatement of those results. It doesn't indicate results would be different.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 05:17 AM   #390
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
But the correct course of action at this point is not to exit the EU a week from now. Article 50 should be revoked until the people who want to leave can come up with a credible plan for it to happen.

Talk of General Elections, 2nd votes, new deals, or any of that nonsense has to saved until after the immediate threat is halted. And we can't keep having ticking time bombs and artificial deadlines.

Revoke it now.
I agree.

At least 3 million Britons too, at this time.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584

It went up by 2.3 million in 24 hours, just shy of 100k/hour, including the night. 5 million really is achievable by next week.

McHrozni
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Old 22nd March 2019, 05:19 AM   #391
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
16 million voted remain. 5 million is just a partial restatement of those results. It doesn't indicate results would be different.
It does indicate the result could be different, it doesn't prove it.

If the will of the electorate changes as new information drips by the democratic thing to do is take it into account.

McHrozni
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Old 22nd March 2019, 05:20 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The vote was a lot closer than that, it was 312-308 on a backbench amendment to rule out no-deal and in any case, the vote is non-binding:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...jority-of-four
That said, the referendum was closer, and was also non-binding. We're told that that must be abided by no matter how harmful it is for the country, so...
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Old 22nd March 2019, 05:24 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I think it would.
I think the EU has long given off signs that they're sick to death of the entire thing and want us to **** or get off the pot. They've also been saying for a while now that May's deal is it and that there will be no further negotiations for a deal.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 05:28 AM   #394
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WRT the petition, it's worth noting that there's one to have a no-deal Brexit that's been going for a couple of weeks now, which has fewer than 400,000 signatures.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 05:29 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
Presumably the 'Men in grey suits' that did Thatcher in. A quiet tap on the shoulder, a few words about rebels potentially supporting a motion of no confidence, and out she goes.
Nope. The Tory party changed their rules, she can't be ousted by a no confidence vote until December of this year.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 05:48 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
He like his hero has realised that facts mean absolutely nothing these days so he can claim whatever he wants and simply lie. There are no negative consequences for his behaviour.
And that's the nub of it.

How do you overcome it when they can simply lie and nobody will challenge them and they simply get invited on TV again to lie more?
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Old 22nd March 2019, 05:49 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
It does indicate the result could be different, it doesn't prove it.

If the will of the electorate changes as new information drips by the democratic thing to do is take it into account.

McHrozni
A) it indicates it could be different? How? A third of the people that voted for a position went online. How is that an indicator.

B) if it needs another direct vote when the will changes, that means to he more wishy washy you are, the more votes you get. That seems undemocratic to vary the votes like that.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 05:51 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
When I was a 10 years old kind I was wondering why de Gaulle didn't want the UK becoming member of the Common Market.

42 years later I finally understood de Gaulle reasons...

In Wille Rushton’s The Reluctant Euro there’s a cartoon of Edward Heath saying “I don’t see how he can possibly say no.”

De Gaulle: “Non!”

Heath: “I hadn’t thought of that.”
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Old 22nd March 2019, 05:52 AM   #399
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https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1109058954309586944

Quote:
this is a truly extraordinary thing for a UK prime minister to have said, as relayed via Vince Cable to @faisalislam
Video embedded in tweet. The TL/DW version is that in the latest meeting Theresa May was asked "what about the pain" to the UK public in the case of a no deal exit, and her reply was "the people voted for pain".
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Old 22nd March 2019, 05:52 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Nope. The Tory party changed their rules, she can't be ousted by a no confidence vote until December of this year.
I should have been more precise: A vote of no confidence in the House of Commons.
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