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Old 18th March 2019, 09:33 AM   #41
Lukraak_Sisser
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Clear ruling from Bercow that the government cannot bring back a deal that is "the same, or substantially the same" as the one that was rejected last week.
Given that that is the deal the UK will get, regardless of what they claim, I guess that's a no-deal exit then.
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Old 18th March 2019, 09:33 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Clear ruling from Bercow that the government cannot bring back a deal that is "the same, or substantially the same" as the one that was rejected last week.
Cue complaints from Brexiteers that failing to allow a repeated vote on the same motion is undemocratic.

Dave
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Old 18th March 2019, 09:37 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Cue complaints from Brexiteers that failing to allow a repeated vote on the same motion is undemocratic.

Dave
No. It seems they are supporting the decision.
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Old 18th March 2019, 10:15 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
No. It seems they are supporting the decision.
As are remainers. Weird; Bercow seems to have found the one thing both extremes can agree on, yet he's being criticised for bias.

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Old 18th March 2019, 10:18 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Clear ruling from Bercow that the government cannot bring back a deal that is "the same, or substantially the same" as the one that was rejected last week.
Apparently there is a precedent in Erskine May from 1604 "The Same Question Or Bill May Not be Twice Offered in One Session"

(Erskine May is the 'rule book' for Parliament)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erskin...ntary_Practice

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 18th March 2019 at 11:06 AM.
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Old 18th March 2019, 10:32 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
As are remainers. Weird; Bercow seems to have found the one thing both extremes can agree on, yet he's being criticised for bias.

Dave
It might pass this time, so the Brexiteers wouldn't get their hard exit and the Remainers would lose their chance of stopping the mess.
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Old 18th March 2019, 10:43 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Clear ruling from Bercow that the government cannot bring back a deal that is "the same, or substantially the same" as the one that was rejected last week.
How dare you suggest it's the same! Helvetica, people, Helvetica! Last time it was TNR.
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Old 18th March 2019, 10:47 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Given that that is the deal the UK will get, regardless of what they claim, I guess that's a no-deal exit then.
The government have said that if they cant get a deal they will ask for a long extension. so that has to happen now. or at least that is what has to happen if the government has any scruples at all.
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Old 18th March 2019, 10:52 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
As are remainers. Weird; Bercow seems to have found the one thing both extremes can agree on, yet he's being criticised for bias.

Dave
It's the three way standoff from the end of The Good, The Bad and The Ugly.

Unfortunately events have conspired that the middle position, which no-one wants but that probably beats the other option you don't want, gets shot first.
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Old 18th March 2019, 11:03 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
The government have said that if they cant get a deal they will ask for a long extension. so that has to happen now. or at least that is what has to happen if the government has any scruples at all.
So will they participate in the EU elections then? Given how much running down the clock to put pressure on the EU was a primary strategy doesn't this undermine the whole leave campaign so far?
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Old 18th March 2019, 11:32 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
How dare you suggest it's the same! Helvetica, people, Helvetica! Last time it was TNR.
Well kudos for embracing the world of sans-serif....
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Old 18th March 2019, 11:33 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So will they participate in the EU elections then? Given how much running down the clock to put pressure on the EU was a primary strategy doesn't this undermine the whole leave campaign so far?
That's why I wonder if the EU will actually allow an extension beyond July.
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Old 18th March 2019, 11:41 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
That's why I wonder if the EU will actually allow an extension beyond July.
Yea that seems unlikely with out some indication that the UK would reach a decision.

Seems very apt

https://thehill.com/policy/internati...opens-the-door
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Old 18th March 2019, 12:26 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
How dare you suggest it's the same! Helvetica, people, Helvetica! Last time it was TNR.

Comic Sans would have been more appropriate.
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Old 18th March 2019, 12:29 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
The government have said that if they cant get a deal they will ask for a long extension. so that has to happen now.

Or were they just saying that to try to get the hard brexiteers to vote on their side?
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Old 18th March 2019, 01:06 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Apparently there is a precedent in Erskine May from 1604 "The Same Question Or Bill May Not be Twice Offered in One Session"

(Erskine May is the 'rule book' for Parliament)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erskin...ntary_Practice
Apparently Theresa May's husband is a direct descendant of his.
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Old 18th March 2019, 01:10 PM   #57
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Rees-Mogg has tweeted he thinks leaving on the 29th with no deal is the best option.

With Mays deal off the table the choice is now no deal or ask for a long extension.
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Old 18th March 2019, 01:54 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Someone posted more film of the marchers. By lunch time there were only about 30 of them left, trudging through the rain.

Someone asked "Where are they now?"

the reply was "About 1953"
I am so stealing that to use about Trump supporters in the US....
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Old 18th March 2019, 01:55 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
That's why I wonder if the EU will actually allow an extension beyond July.
I think the attitude that they should let the kid touch the hot stove lid with hand and learn the hard way is gaining daily/
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Old 18th March 2019, 02:47 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Clear ruling from Bercow that the government cannot bring back a deal that is "the same, or substantially the same" as the one that was rejected last week.
He could have done some preparation and earned his pay by looking all this up before hand. This situation has been predicted by several pundits.
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Old 18th March 2019, 04:55 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
He could have done some preparation and earned his pay by looking all this up before hand. This situation has been predicted by several pundits.
Would sort of conflict with his earlier approach of "who needs precedents anyway".
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Old 18th March 2019, 05:05 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Rees-Mogg has tweeted he thinks leaving on the 29th with no deal is the best option.

With Mays deal off the table the choice is now no deal or ask for a long extension.
Rees Mogg is like every sterotype of an aristocratic English Villian that Hollywood has ever done.
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Old 18th March 2019, 05:35 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Well kudos for embracing the world of sans-serif....

To keep it in the spirit of Parliament it would be sans serif ... but with all those little squiggles and tails on the ends of the letters.
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Old 18th March 2019, 09:18 PM   #64
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Double post -sorry.
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Old 18th March 2019, 09:19 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Rees Mogg is like every sterotype of an aristocratic English Villian that Hollywood has ever done.
And if you will forgive an American offering an opinion, Nigel Farage appears to me to be the stereotype of a classic English twit.
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Old 18th March 2019, 11:41 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
That's why I wonder if the EU will actually allow an extension beyond July.
EU has two choices: allow an extension until the end of June, or allow a long extension of over a year, to allow for a general election or a referendum (or both). It became clear yesterday the deal can not be decided upon again in the House of Commons and Parliament stated it doesn't want a no deal.

The only remaining options are:

1. renegotiating the deal enough to be materially different, this option exists only in theory as EU already ruled that out plus there isn't enough time
2. referendum for the deal, this requires an extension of about a year at least
3. a new general election, this too would require an extension of at least one year

A sensible approach for the EU would be to offer an extension of four years. A delay this long ensures sufficient time to run a referendum if UK wants one, it also ensures at least one general election will be held in the meantime so the deal can be rerun through the parliament and hopefully pass and even after all that it still leaves enough time to renegotiate the deal entirely. It also allows UK to contest the European Elections and have their MEPs run the full term (or thereabout), limiting any problems with legality and representation.

It is possible to renegotiate the deal, if UK lets go of some self-imposed red lines. Expect any new deal to be notably worse for the UK than this one, but a different deal may still be possible - it just turns the UK into a colony of the EU, rather than a priviledged member.

If Brexit is extended by several years I expect there will be none in the end.

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Old 19th March 2019, 12:03 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
And if you will forgive an American offering an opinion, Nigel Farage appears to me to be the stereotype of a classic English twit.
Seconded!
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Old 19th March 2019, 01:36 AM   #68
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One way to make the deal different enough to be voted on again would be to include a commitment to hold a referendum before going ahead with it. The EU would certainly agree an extension for that.
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Old 19th March 2019, 02:01 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
It's the three way standoff from the end of The Good, The Bad and The Ugly.

Unfortunately events have conspired that the middle position, which no-one wants but that probably beats the other option you don't want, gets shot first.
Yeah, the second best option is gone. So it is all or nothing for both sides now.
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Old 19th March 2019, 02:04 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
From that link:
Q: How many miles did he [Farage] actually do? Anyone know?
A: Probably about 50 metres.
and
A: How far was it to the first pub?

At least the Brits haven't lost their sense of humor.
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Old 19th March 2019, 02:12 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
If Brexit is extended by several years I expect there will be none in the end.
Indeed. The Brexiteers surely know this so won't they act to prevent such a long extension? Do they have sufficient power to do so?

(Pardon a Yank's ignorance of British politics.)
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Old 19th March 2019, 02:17 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Rees-Mogg has tweeted he thinks leaving on the 29th with no deal is the best option.
In other news, the Pope thinks Catholicism is a good choice of religion.

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Old 19th March 2019, 02:18 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
And if you will forgive an American offering an opinion, Nigel Farage appears to me to be the stereotype of a classic English twit.
Oh, come on. I met lots of classic English twits in my time at Oxford, and I think you're slandering all of them.

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Old 19th March 2019, 02:56 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Well kudos for embracing the world of sans-serif....
It's been a long, strange journey...
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Old 19th March 2019, 03:01 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Comic Sans would have been more appropriate.
Blunt crayon on padded wallpaper would be most appropriate.
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Old 19th March 2019, 03:08 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
And if you will forgive an American offering an opinion, Nigel Farage appears to me to be the stereotype of a classic English twit.

It's kind of complicated, Farage is definitely rich and establishment, he went to a Eaton College school but the classic English twit is more obviously upper class (think Rees-Mogg) and we generally consider our twits to be oblivious but generally good natured (don't think Rees-Mogg). Farage is more of a spiv, in the ration book days that Brexiteers think so kindly of he'd have been trading on the Black Market.
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Old 19th March 2019, 03:11 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I am so stealing that to use about Trump supporters in the US....
Please you are lucky to get into the 20th century, the 1950's was a socialist hellscape, have you seen the tax policy then????
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Old 19th March 2019, 03:13 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
EU has two choices: allow an extension until the end of June, or allow a long extension of over a year, to allow for a general election or a referendum (or both). It became clear yesterday the deal can not be decided upon again in the House of Commons and Parliament stated it doesn't want a no deal.

The only remaining options are:

1. renegotiating the deal enough to be materially different, this option exists only in theory as EU already ruled that out plus there isn't enough time
2. referendum for the deal, this requires an extension of about a year at least
3. a new general election, this too would require an extension of at least one year

A sensible approach for the EU would be to offer an extension of four years. A delay this long ensures sufficient time to run a referendum if UK wants one, it also ensures at least one general election will be held in the meantime so the deal can be rerun through the parliament and hopefully pass and even after all that it still leaves enough time to renegotiate the deal entirely. It also allows UK to contest the European Elections and have their MEPs run the full term (or thereabout), limiting any problems with legality and representation.

It is possible to renegotiate the deal, if UK lets go of some self-imposed red lines. Expect any new deal to be notably worse for the UK than this one, but a different deal may still be possible - it just turns the UK into a colony of the EU, rather than a priviledged member.

If Brexit is extended by several years I expect there will be none in the end.

McHrozni
This seems a sensible and reasonable solution so nothing remotely like it has a chance of happening.
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Old 19th March 2019, 03:36 AM   #79
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
This seems a sensible and reasonable solution so nothing remotely like it has a chance of happening.
Well, that depends. EU has been reasonable and strategic throughout the fisasco. It can offer an extension of four years, even if UK doesn't ask for one. That or none at all, your pick.
Short of a coup the extension ensures a general election in the meantime, giving the UK at least one certain shot at resolving the issue.

May can then spend the next three years procastrinating and the next government faces the exact same problems as this one - but with a lot wiser electorate and perhaps a saner Labour party too. Corbyn may be ousted in the meantime and replaced with someone with an IQ of a pot plant (or just a pot plant). That alone should be enough to solve the issue of Brexit for a generation.

Here's the kicker - it also allows Theresa May many shots at resolving the issue her way. Jacob Ress-Mogg and the other goblins get shafted, but she can pin the blame on them - it was their votes that struck down the only possible Brext after all.

McHrozni
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Last edited by McHrozni; 19th March 2019 at 03:38 AM.
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Old 19th March 2019, 03:47 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Indeed. The Brexiteers surely know this so won't they act to prevent such a long extension? Do they have sufficient power to do so?



(Pardon a Yank's ignorance of British politics.)
The Brexiteers need do nothing. At the moment the state of the law in the UK is very clear, we leave the EU on 29th March. Parliament passed that legislation 2 years ago so to stop the UK leaving the EU will require Parliment to agree to alter the law.

I think at the moment the hard Brexiters have the upper hand as it will take positive action to stop us leaving. And as has been shown this lot can't do anything.
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