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Tags donald trump , Mueller investigation , Robert Mueller , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections , William Barr

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Old 26th April 2019, 01:05 PM   #281
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And he still makes promises he can't keep and people keep believing this will be the one he keeps.

A current lie is he's going to put Democrats in jail that persecuted him.
Barr is on the record as saying "spying did occur". It will be interesting to find out the facts of his statement to Congress. I believe most Americans want to know the exact details of how this investigation began, what evidence was used to warrant "spying" on an opponent's political campaign and where the evidence came from. If nobody did anything wrong then there's no problem. If wrongdoing is found to have been committed by senior FBI officials, then the clean hands doctrine is out the window and the Mueller investigation would have been illegal from the start. Something to think about.

Chris B.
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Old 26th April 2019, 01:11 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Barr is on the record as saying "spying did occur". It will be interesting to find out the facts of his statement to Congress. I believe most Americans want to know the exact details of how this investigation began, what evidence was used to warrant "spying" on an opponent's political campaign and where the evidence came from. If nobody did anything wrong then there's no problem. If wrongdoing is found to have been committed by senior FBI officials, then the clean hands doctrine is out the window and the Mueller investigation would have been illegal from the start. Something to think about.

Chris B.
1. I think you're use of the word "most" in this context is hyperbole. Most of American's are probably sick of hearing about it, and don't really care

2. If he had facts, then he should have ******* laid them out when he made the "accusation", which is what it was.

3. The Mueller investigation wouldn't have been illegal, and this weak ass attempt at even implying that it was is pathetic. There was plenty of other evidence aside from the FISA warrant. That was one piece of supporting evidence.
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Old 26th April 2019, 01:19 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Barr is on the record as saying "spying did occur".
Barr says a lot of things. Some of them might even be true.

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
I believe most Americans want to know the exact details of how this investigation began, what evidence was used to warrant "spying" on an opponent's political campaign and where the evidence came from.
I thought that was pretty well already understood. They were spying on Russian agents and Russian agents were talking to the Trump campaign.
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Old 26th April 2019, 01:22 PM   #284
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Most Americans don't care one bit how the investigation started, since Trump has created so much smoke that looking for the fire is just the thing to do
This obsession with the initial trigger of the investigation is frankly bizarre.
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Old 26th April 2019, 01:42 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I thought that was pretty well already understood. They were spying on Russian agents and Russian agents were talking to the Trump campaign.
In fact it began because the British were carrying out surveillance and using phone and telecommunications intercepts to spy on Russian operatives, in things that were unrelated to anything to do with American politics, and they became suspicious when more and more Trump associates kept coming into the surveillance scope, and appearing in the communications intercepts.

I have no doubt whatsoever, that Trump knew what was happening in the lead up the the 2016 election, and he is happy for Russian interference to continue to happen because he knows it will be of benefit to his efforts to get re-elected. This is why his why his administration has gone to great lengths to neuter the US Government's ability to fight against this interference by getting rid of its top cyber policy adviser, and eliminating the policy position that aimed to help streamline the government's overall approach to cybersecurity.
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Old 26th April 2019, 01:51 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Barr is on the record as saying "spying did occur". It will be interesting to find out the facts of his statement to Congress. I believe most Americans want to know the exact details of how this investigation began, what evidence was used to warrant "spying" on an opponent's political campaign and where the evidence came from. If nobody did anything wrong then there's no problem. If wrongdoing is found to have been committed by senior FBI officials, then the clean hands doctrine is out the window and the Mueller investigation would have been illegal from the start. Something to think about.

Chris B.
No he did not. What he said was, "I think spying did occur". "Think"....that's a weasel word that could make his statement true even if he has no evidence spying occurred.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFtSfl9uvtU

Some people think Bigfoot exists. That does not imply there is any good evidence for Bigfoot.
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Old 26th April 2019, 02:07 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
No he did not. What he said was, "I think spying did occur". "Think"....that's a weasel word that could make his statement true even if he has no evidence spying occurred.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFtSfl9uvtU

Some people think Bigfoot exists. That does not imply there is any good evidence for Bigfoot.
Besides which, if the FBI have reason to believe that US citizens are doing something illegal or are planning to do something illegal, they are entitled to investigate what those US citizens are doing, and part of that investigation can be "spying".... its called surveillance.

Also, if the CIA have reason to believe that people are doing something, or are planning to do something, that could harm or undermine the security of the United States, they too are entitled to investigate what those people are doing, and part of that investigation can also be "spying".... and it too is called surveillance.

In short, if the FBI or CIA were "spying" on the Trump campaign as part of a bona-fide investigation into wrongdoing, then that is legal and above board. Der Trumpenführer's toady, Bill Barr is just trying to make political capital for his Dear Leader.
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Old 26th April 2019, 02:29 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
1. I think you're use of the word "most" in this context is hyperbole. Most of American's are probably sick of hearing about it, and don't really care

2. If he had facts, then he should have ******* laid them out when he made the "accusation", which is what it was.

3. The Mueller investigation wouldn't have been illegal, and this weak ass attempt at even implying that it was is pathetic. There was plenty of other evidence aside from the FISA warrant. That was one piece of supporting evidence.
1. I want to know the exact details of who did what. You can bury your head in the sand if you choose.

2. The facts will be laid out. At the time of his testimony he cannot be expected to rule on these facts for an investigation that's just started.

3. Please do yourself a favor and read up on the "Clean Hands Doctrine". If anything improper was done by FBI officials the Government's hands would be dirty......and yes that means anything done after that point would be illegal.

Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Barr says a lot of things. Some of them might even be true.


I thought that was pretty well already understood. They were spying on Russian agents and Russian agents were talking to the Trump campaign.
We'll see.

There's a lot that's yet to be reported to the general public. As I said, it will be interesting to learn the details.

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Most Americans don't care one bit how the investigation started, since Trump has created so much smoke that looking for the fire is just the thing to do
This obsession with the initial trigger of the investigation is frankly bizarre.
Oh, you mean most Democrat Americans. Well then I suppose most Republican Americans do care how investigations begin because if they don't then Constitutional Rights are out the window and Big Brother can get away with anything he chooses to.
Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
No he did not. What he said was, "I think spying did occur". "Think"....that's a weasel word that could make his statement true even if he has no evidence spying occurred.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFtSfl9uvtU

Some people think Bigfoot exists. That does not imply there is any good evidence for Bigfoot.
Remember me saying this part: "It will be interesting to find out the facts of his statement to Congress" That meant I want to see the facts responsible for Barr making that statement. I couldn't care less what anyone "thinks", I'm only interested in the facts.

Chris B.
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Old 26th April 2019, 03:18 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post


Remember me saying this part: "It will be interesting to find out the facts of his statement to Congress" That meant I want to see the facts responsible for Barr making that statement. I couldn't care less what anyone "thinks", I'm only interested in the facts.

Chris B.
Nevertheless, you misrepresented Barr's statement.
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Old 26th April 2019, 03:39 PM   #290
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Hey, let the Russians tell you about the Mueller report.
Quote:
When the report by special counsel Robert S. Mueller III came out last week, offering the most authoritative account yet of Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election, YouTube recommended one video source hundreds of thousands of times to viewers seeking information, a watchdog says: RT, the global media operation funded by the Russian government.

AlgoTransparency, founded by former YouTube engineer Guillaume Chaslot, analyzed the recommendations made by the 1,000 YouTube channels it tracks daily. The group found that 236 of those collectively recommended RT’s “On Contact: Russiagate & Mueller Report w/ Aaron Mate” more than 400,000 times.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/techn...=.4898bc8443d3
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Old 26th April 2019, 03:55 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Hey, let the Russians tell you about the Mueller report.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/techn...=.4898bc8443d3
Disturbing.

RT isn't the new Pravda. It's worse.
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Old 26th April 2019, 04:33 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Nevertheless, you misrepresented Barr's statement.

Now you're lying. Barr DID say "spying did occur" based on his view of the evidence he is looking into. And I did NOT quote him out of context NOR misrepresent what he said by not quoting his entire testimony. It's obvious Barr's statements have struck a chord with many including yourself.

Now back to the point. I will be interested to find out the facts that lead Barr to make these statements to Congress. Many may hope and pray he's simply lying, I guess we'll see when the time comes.

Chris B.
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Old 26th April 2019, 05:01 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Now you're lying. Barr DID say "spying did occur" based on his view of the evidence he is looking into. And I did NOT quote him out of context NOR misrepresent what he said by not quoting his entire testimony. It's obvious Barr's statements have struck a chord with many including yourself.

Now back to the point. I will be interested to find out the facts that lead Barr to make these statements to Congress. Many may hope and pray he's simply lying, I guess we'll see when the time comes.

Chris B.
No. "I think spying did occur" The "I think" is a significant qualifier you omitted from your quote, which actually does change the context.

While your quote pretends it was presented as a fact; the qualifier demonstrates it was in reality merely an opinion.
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Old 26th April 2019, 06:07 PM   #294
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More telling than "I think spying did occur" versus "Spying did occur" is Barr's use of the word "spying" to begin with.

Surveillance was established on Carter Page via legitimate channels (FISA court). Momentarily giving Barr the benefit of the doubt, he should have said something along the lines of "We need to investigate why the FISA court approved the surveillance ". Instead he used the hot-button word "spying", which isn't how the pros describe it. I assume that's because he was playing to his nutcase of a boss.
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Old 26th April 2019, 07:08 PM   #295
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Here's a transcript of that section of testimony:

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...stigation.html


"ATTORNEY GENERAL BILL BARR: As I said in my confirmation hearing, I am going to be reviewing both the genesis and the conduct of intelligence activities directed at the Trump campaign during 2016. And a lot of this has already been investigated, and a substantial portion of it has been investigated and is being investigated by the office of the Inspector General, but one of the things I want to do is pull everything together from the various investigations that have gone on, including on the Hill and in the [Justice] Department, and see if there are any remaining questions to be addressed.





SEN. JEANNE SHAHEEN: And can you share with us why you feel a need to do that?

BARR: Well, you know, for the same reason we're worried about foreign influence in elections, we want to make sure that during elections -- I think spying on a political campaign is a big deal. It's a big deal.

The generation I grew up in, which is the Vietnam War period, people were all concerned about spying on anti-war people and so forth by the government, and there were a lot of rules put in place to make sure that there's an adequate basis before our law enforcement agencies get involved in political surveillance. I'm not suggesting that those rules were violated but I think it's important to look at that. and I'm not talking about the FBI necessarily, but intelligence agencies more broadly.

SHAHEEN: So you're not suggesting, though, that spying occurred?

BARR: Well, I guess -- I think spying did occur, yes. I think spying did occur.

SHAHEEN: Well --

BARR: The question was whether it was adequately predicated. And I'm not suggesting it wasn't adequately predicated. I need to explore that. I think it's my obligation. Congress is usually very concerned about intelligence agencies and law enforcement agencies staying in their proper lane. I want to make sure that happened. We have a lot of rules about that.

I want to say that I've said I'm reviewing this. I haven't set up a team yet, but I have in mind having some colleagues help me pull all this information together and letting me know whether there are some areas that should be looked at. I also want to make clear. I also want to make clear, this is not launching an investigation of the FBI. Frankly, to the extent there were any issues at the FBI, I do not view it as a problem that's endemic to the FBI.

I think there was probably a failure among a group of leaders there, at the upper echelon. So I don't like to hear attacks about the FBI because I think the FBI is an outstanding organization and I think Chris Wray is a great partner for me. I'm very pleased he's there as the director. If it becomes necessary to look over some former officials' activities, I expect I'll be relying heavily on Chris and work closely with him in looking at that information. But that's what I'm doing. I feel I have an obligation to make sure that government power is not abused. I think that's one of the principal roles of the attorney general."

It also looks like the IG is and has been investigating these accusations of spying on a political campaign for quite some time. This is a big deal. The IG is not investigating Barr's thoughts or feelings.

Chris B.
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Old 26th April 2019, 07:18 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
No. "I think spying did occur" The "I think" is a significant qualifier you omitted from your quote, which actually does change the context.

While your quote pretends it was presented as a fact; the qualifier demonstrates it was in reality merely an opinion.
Not only the qualifier, but also just who was being spied on. There is no evidence anyone set out to spy on the Trump campaign the way Trump is claiming.


ETA: And what Varwoche said.
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Old 26th April 2019, 08:38 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Hey, let the Russians tell you about the Mueller report.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/techn...=.4898bc8443d3
I saw about that on Twitter this morning via Guillaume Chaslot.

I watched a bit of the RT vid... Total topsy-turvyland spin like Trump's propaganda.

It didn't have that many reactions/likes, and the ones it did have, I'd guess are fake.
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Old 26th April 2019, 09:19 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Here's a transcript of that section of testimony:

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...stigation.html

<snip>

SHAHEEN: So you're not suggesting, though, that spying occurred?

BARR: Well, I guess -- I think spying did occur, yes. I think spying did occur.

<snip>
So you quote a passage to prove you were right, and it proves you were wrong.

Nuff said
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Old 26th April 2019, 09:48 PM   #299
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Chris, if someone robbed your house and you reported it to the police, you would want them to investigate you before they even start looking for the culprit?
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Old 26th April 2019, 10:13 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Now you're lying. Barr DID say "spying did occur" based on his view of the evidence he is looking into. And I did NOT quote him out of context NOR misrepresent what he said by not quoting his entire testimony. It's obvious Barr's statements have struck a chord with many including yourself.

Now back to the point. I will be interested to find out the facts that lead Barr to make these statements to Congress. Many may hope and pray he's simply lying, I guess we'll see when the time comes.

Chris B.
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
So you quote a passage to prove you were right, and it proves you were wrong.

Nuff said
Perhaps you missed it, so there it is again for you to not only read but to comprehend.

Chris B.
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Old 26th April 2019, 10:17 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Chris, if someone robbed your house and you reported it to the police, you would want them to investigate you before they even start looking for the culprit?
If someone robbed my house the only difficulty would be deciding whether to shoot them with one of my AR-15's or one of my AK-47's. The culprit would be easy to locate, however my wife would probably disapprove of the red stains on the new carbonized bamboo flooring.

Chris B.
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Old 26th April 2019, 10:45 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
If someone robbed my house the only difficulty would be deciding whether to shoot them with one of my AR-15's or one of my AK-47's. The culprit would be easy to locate, however my wife would probably disapprove of the red stains on the new carbonized bamboo flooring.

Chris B.
Obvious evasion is obvious.

To make it easier for you: you want to report a break-in that happened while you were on holiday. According to you, the primary focus of the investigators must be to determine whether you didn't do something illegal on your holiday before they decide to take up the case
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Old 26th April 2019, 10:51 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Perhaps you missed it, so there it is again for you to not only read but to comprehend.

Chris B.
Nope.

You said... and I quote

"Barr is on the record as saying 'spying did occur'"

You are claiming that he made that statement as a statement of fact. HE DID NO SUCH THING. What he actually said was " I think spying did occur"... that is a statment of OPINION, not fact.

I can understand how you might not see the difference between opinion and fact, given your stance on the existence of bigfoot... but that is a another story isn't it... one that speaks to your credibility.
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Old 27th April 2019, 03:54 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Perhaps you missed it, so there it is again for you to not only read but to comprehend.

Chris B.
I comprehend that “struck a chord” seems to mean “confirmed my bias”. Barr has a history of Republican partisan spinnery going back to one of the Bushes. I forget which, at the moment. If you are you are looking to him for clues about what’s really going on, you might as well go straight to the horse’s mouth and blindly accept whatever nonsense comes out of Trump’s mouth.
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Old 27th April 2019, 04:01 AM   #305
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https://twitter.com/rebeccaballhaus/...87302130753542

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Trump on Hannity says Attorney General Bill Barr after receiving the Mueller report "made a decision right on the spot” that the president hadn’t obstructed justice.
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Old 27th April 2019, 04:13 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Chris, if someone robbed your house and you reported it to the police, you would want them to investigate you before they even start looking for the culprit?
I know this will come across as highly cynical, but...

...when I was being trained as a police officer, one thing we were taught was to “Always <insert code for warrants check> your victims”.

It would generally not be the first thing to come to mind on a burglary call, unless we thought it was drug-related. But it’s not uncommon for victims of street crimes to have records and/or warrants themselves.

Like I said, kinda cynical. But assuming that society wants people with outstanding warrants to be brought in to face justice, a practical rule to follow.
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Old 27th April 2019, 04:50 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I comprehend that “struck a chord” seems to mean “confirmed my bias”. Barr has a history of Republican partisan spinnery going back to one of the Bushes. I forget which, at the moment. If you are you are looking to him for clues about what’s really going on, you might as well go straight to the horse’s mouth and blindly accept whatever nonsense comes out of Trump’s mouth.
H.W. He was his AG that helped him pardon the worst of Iran/Contra away.
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Old 27th April 2019, 05:15 AM   #308
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I know this will come across as highly cynical, but...

...when I was being trained as a police officer, one thing we were taught was to “Always <insert code for warrants check> your victims”.

It would generally not be the first thing to come to mind on a burglary call, unless we thought it was drug-related. But it’s not uncommon for victims of street crimes to have records and/or warrants themselves.

Like I said, kinda cynical. But assuming that society wants people with outstanding warrants to be brought in to face justice, a practical rule to follow.
Rule number one: suspect the victim
-Sam Vimes
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Old 27th April 2019, 05:25 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
H.W. He was his AG that helped him pardon the worst of Iran/Contra away.
Thank you. Ol' General Cover-up, himself
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Old 27th April 2019, 06:26 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
No he did not. What he said was, "I think spying did occur". "Think"....that's a weasel word that could make his statement true even if he has no evidence spying occurred.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFtSfl9uvtU

Some people think Bigfoot exists. That does not imply there is any good evidence for Bigfoot.

The Attorney General of the United States is not "some people".

He speaks from a position of authority with all the weight of the government apparatus under his purview as implicit support.
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Old 27th April 2019, 06:36 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
The Attorney General of the United States is not "some people".

He speaks from a position of authority with all the weight of the government apparatus under his purview as implicit support.
And he has opinions and an a****** just like everyone else


Appeal to Authority noted
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Last edited by applecorped; 27th April 2019 at 06:37 AM.
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Old 27th April 2019, 06:51 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
And he has opinions and an a****** just like everyone else


Appeal to Authority noted
Those words don't mean what you think they mean. Stick with the emojis.
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Old 27th April 2019, 06:53 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Thank you. Ol' General Cover-up, himself
Before Barr shut down Iran Contra, I naively thought truth would always be revealed over time.
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Old 27th April 2019, 07:08 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Appeal to Authority noted


It's funny 'cause it's wrong.
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Old 27th April 2019, 10:05 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Nope.

I can understand how you might not see the difference between opinion and fact, given your stance on the existence of bigfoot... but that is a another story isn't it... one that speaks to your credibility.
I'm sure there is some logical fallacy lurking in there somewhere, but I could not help feeling the same way.
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Old 27th April 2019, 12:48 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
If someone robbed my house the only difficulty would be deciding whether to shoot them with one of my AR-15's or one of my AK-47's. The culprit would be easy to locate, however my wife would probably disapprove of the red stains on the new carbonized bamboo flooring.

Chris B.
Golly. You could have answered the question, but I think you made the right choice. Talk instead about what a manly man you are and add something about your decorating style. I can't speak for others, but I'm mighty impressed.
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Old 27th April 2019, 01:43 PM   #317
ChrisBFRPKY
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I comprehend that “struck a chord” seems to mean “confirmed my bias”. Barr has a history of Republican partisan spinnery going back to one of the Bushes. I forget which, at the moment. If you are you are looking to him for clues about what’s really going on, you might as well go straight to the horse’s mouth and blindly accept whatever nonsense comes out of Trump’s mouth.
Trump's been right before. I feel it highly unlikely Barr would attempt to "spin" something while under oath at a Congressional hearing. "Spinning" there would likely put himself in jeopardy, why would he do that? I don't think so.

Chris B.
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Old 27th April 2019, 01:48 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Trump's been right before. I feel it highly unlikely Barr would attempt to "spin" something while under oath at a Congressional hearing. "Spinning" there would likely put himself in jeopardy, why would he do that? I don't think so.

Chris B.
How would spinning put him in jeopardy? Suppose that he really didn't think that "spying" is an accurate term for what happened in Trump's campaign, but he chose to use it anyway. There is no possibility I can see, absent a memo saying "There was no spying," that he could be charged with lying under oath.

Do you extend this same reasoning to Democratic officials? Hillary Clinton, for instance, never used spin while under oath as Secretary of State, because of fear of jeopardy?
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Old 27th April 2019, 01:48 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Golly. You could have answered the question, but I think you made the right choice. Talk instead about what a manly man you are and add something about your decorating style. I can't speak for others, but I'm mighty impressed.
I do have some time to waste. I don't have so much of it that I want to delve too deeply into unrelated hypotheticals.

Chris B.
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One could choose to be civil though and still disagree. For example, since I know Bigfoot does exist, I don't call others "idiot" just because they're uneducated on the subject and share a different view based on that lack of experience. Chris B.
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Old 27th April 2019, 01:53 PM   #320
ChrisBFRPKY
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
How would spinning put him in jeopardy? Suppose that he really didn't think that "spying" is an accurate term for what happened in Trump's campaign, but he chose to use it anyway. There is no possibility I can see, absent a memo saying "There was no spying," that he could be charged with lying under oath.

Do you extend this same reasoning to Democratic officials? Hillary Clinton, for instance, never used spin while under oath as Secretary of State, because of fear of jeopardy?
I think Hillary was obligated to tell the truth when placed under oath at congressional hearings. What bothered me about Hillary is that she wasn't placed under oath during questioning by the FBI, doesn't that seem odd or improper to you?

Chris B.
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One could choose to be civil though and still disagree. For example, since I know Bigfoot does exist, I don't call others "idiot" just because they're uneducated on the subject and share a different view based on that lack of experience. Chris B.
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