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Old 30th May 2019, 05:31 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
God also creates honey.

But He uses bees as workers.
No, the bees do all the work to create the honey. No god is needed. Similarly, I and my colleagues design and build things using our own ingenuity and the labor of our hands. I don't work for god. I don't need any god to help me. There is no part of the work that god does. Hence there is no point in giving some non-existent god credit. We have wonderful technological things because I and my colleagues work very hard to create them. When you enjoy the fruits of our labors but give credit instead to some non-existent god, it is an insult.
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Old 30th May 2019, 06:18 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
We're not talking about whether a person gets a blessing here.

But we are. That’s the logical conclusion of your version of the Law of Attraction. The exceptions you want would render your entire thesis invalid. You can’t have the desire for a thing be proof the thing exists if you’re then going to put a bunch of random restrictions on it to sidestep the fact that your Law of Attraction does not reflect observed reality.
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Old 30th May 2019, 06:20 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
God also creates honey.



But He uses bees as workers.


That argument is a load of evidence you’re trying to take over fertilizer production from male bovines.
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Old 30th May 2019, 06:41 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
God also creates honey.

But He uses bees as workers.
And Allah has created diseases in this world. And the bacteria was instrumental in creating the disease.
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Old 30th May 2019, 06:46 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
And Allah has created diseases in this world. And the bacteria was instrumental in creating the disease.


I demand evidence to support that claim.
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Old 30th May 2019, 06:48 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
And Allah has created diseases in this world. And the bacteria was instrumental in creating the disease.
Who wanted that? Your argument in this thread is ostensibly that God creates whatever we desire, and it will be waiting for us after we die. That, in turn, was based on the premise of a perfect, benevolent God. If God creates things that harm us, he cannot be perfectly benevolent.
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Old 31st May 2019, 06:24 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
And Allah has created diseases in this world. And the bacteria was instrumental in creating the disease.
You are asserting that your deity is hostile to humanity.

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Old 31st May 2019, 07:00 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
1- We see that the natural and healthy desires of the people are generally in return (for example, the existence / presence of water as a response to the desire for drinking water, etc.).

2- So it is wiser to think that paradise exists.
Are you suggesting that: Intent comes before, is primary; and that (what we call) matter is secondary? By 'matter' would include Paradise (all things good) and also all things not so good. IOW, the Earth is a product of desire?
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Old 31st May 2019, 07:08 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by LarryS View Post
Are you suggesting that: Intent comes before, is primary; and that (what we call) matter is secondary? By 'matter' would include Paradise (all things good) and also all things not so good. IOW, the Earth is a product of desire?
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Old 31st May 2019, 09:28 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
We're not talking about whether a person gets a blessing here.

Example, In Hell peoples can't get the blessings.

But there are these blessings, things that we desire.

This our world is a mixture of Paradise and hell. And the truth. Just like the other univers.
Apparently I do not understand the point of your original post then Emre_1974tr.

Doesn't the whole of your argument revolve around the notion that those who want water receive it? That is what you said.

Could you try to rephrase your argument in a different way then if it does not revolve around what you said in your original post?

While I am have a strong grasp on the theology of Azathoth the blind idiot God, seed of Chaos, your post is apparently too disorganized for me to understand.

Thank you for any clarification.
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Old 31st May 2019, 09:55 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Tormac View Post
While I am have a strong grasp on the theology of Azathoth the blind idiot God, seed of Chaos, your post is apparently too disorganized for me to understand.
Emre_1974tr is no Abdul Alhazred.
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Old 31st May 2019, 03:47 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Emre_1974tr is no Abdul Alhazred.
I'd say he's more akin to the Sweedish Chef
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Old 31st May 2019, 04:04 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
I'd say he's more akin to the Sweedish Chef

I think that’s unfair to the Swedish Chef. The Chef’s individual words may be unintelligible but you can almost always understand what he means.
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Old 1st June 2019, 04:17 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
1- We see that the natural and healthy desires of the people are generally in return (for example, the existence / presence of water as a response to the desire for drinking water, etc.).

2- So it is wiser to think that paradise exists.

And the Oscar in the category "Non-sequiturs" goes to...
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Old 1st June 2019, 05:30 AM   #95
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In the long, yackety history of moslemism, there have appeared various flavors of koranic literalism. Imre is, I surmise, attempting to follow one or more traditions of that sort, using conventions for discussion very different from anything we regard as rational. Arguing with him is like trying to breathe on Mars.

And, as on Mars, you'll quickly lose consciousness if you try.
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Old 1st June 2019, 09:05 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
In the long, yackety history of moslemism, there have appeared various flavors of koranic literalism. Imre is, I surmise, attempting to follow one or more traditions of that sort...
In his Qur'an-vs-Judeo-Christians thread I tried to get him to address his one-sided treatment of sectarianism, but to no avail. Some people are so deeply awash in their own sectarian surf that they can't see a horizon.

Quote:
...using conventions for discussion very different from anything we regard as rational.
I dislike all the literalist traditions because the one thing they all do is deny that any sort of interpretation takes place that they need to be accountable for. To read is to interpret. And if a proponent insists that interpretational variation is off the table, then he has effectively placed his argument beyond rational discussion. In Emre's specific case, he doesn't read the language the Qur'an is written in. So when faced with having to interpret the idioms of a foreign language, he's all at sea. (See what I did there?)

But the topic of this thread, however Qur'anically allied, is just full of pop-science leeway. So while the literalism argument is certainly valid, we can make a better argument without that as its premise. However close-hauled one's argument is to a text -- sorry, I'm re-reading the Patrick O'Brien novels -- it has to be logically consisstent. Emre's flowery platitudes for Allah and his supposed perfections just don't hold water when he attributes to his god both a perfection of benevolence that assures us a safe harbor of Paradise, yet admits to him also the shoals of disease and misery. It's self-contradictory and therefore not a credible argument.
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Old 1st June 2019, 11:13 PM   #97
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I wonder why we sceptics waste time debating the nonsense of faith. So do I. Aren't we clear that this is nonsense?
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Old 2nd June 2019, 04:25 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I wonder why we sceptics waste time debating the nonsense of faith. So do I. Aren't we clear that this is nonsense?
I don't know if this thread is re 'faith' so much as it is trying to figure out what the OP is suggesting . . . I have no idea what I'm supposed to have faith in based on the pile of words in OP.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 07:50 AM   #99
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Two well fortified camps for sure. Emre has his wall of Koran which to him is infallible. The other side wants proof and builds a wall of doubt only facts and evidence can get through.

In this thread emre tosses his idea in no man's land because he is so sure it is going to convince us, it is based on his best source.

The other side demands proof outside the Koran. Archeology or some ancient text not the Koran, by now him using anything else seems a miracle.

And it goes nowhere because both sides are unwilling to concede even the tiniest scrap of thought that the other may be right.

A total waste of time if not to confirm to ourselves how right we are. Both sides.
Ladies and Gentlemen, place your bets because both sides cannot be correct.

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Old 3rd June 2019, 07:53 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
God also creates honey.

But He uses bees as workers.
How about you respond to my specific example rather than running away?

Do humans have free will or not? Do they not build their own stuff?
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Old 3rd June 2019, 09:04 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
Two well fortified camps for sure. Emre has his wall of Koran which to him is infallible. The other side wants proof and builds a wall of doubt only facts and evidence can get through.
I want nothing. I'm not interested in real state within what's enclosed inside Emre's walls. It is my worldview that he can live there happily.

Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
In this thread emre tosses his idea in no man's land because he is so sure it is going to convince us, it is based on his best source.
And that's quite OK with me. If he feels lonely and wants to preach in the desert to kill time, he's quite welcome.

Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post

A total waste of time if not to confirm to ourselves how right we are. Both sides.
Ladies and Gentlemen, place your bets because both sides cannot be correct.
That goes without saying.

I'm still trying to understand what the thread's title means. Did Emre want to speechify on demand? Have anyone "demanded evidence" in the way Emre wanted? Because, if that's the case, there's mutual dependency here and not two "groups" turning their backs on each other as you suggest.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 10:26 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
A total waste of time if not to confirm to ourselves how right we are. Both sides.
Ladies and Gentlemen, place your bets because both sides cannot be correct.
It is, in fact, a testament to stubbornness.

https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-quitter/
The Quitter - Poem by Robert William Service

Quote:
When you're lost in the Wild, and you're scared as a child,
And Death looks you bang in the eye,
And you're sore as a boil, it's according to Hoyle
To cock your revolver and . . . die.
But the Code of a Man says: "Fight all you can,"
And self-dissolution is barred.
In hunger and woe, oh, it's easy to blow . . .
It's the hell-served-for-breakfast that's hard.

"You're sick of the game!" Well, now, that's a shame.
You're young and you're brave and you're bright.
"You've had a raw deal!" I know -- but don't squeal,
Buck up, do your damnedest, and fight.
It's the plugging away that will win you the day,
So don't be a piker, old pard!
Just draw on your grit; it's so easy to quit:
It's the keeping-your-chin-up that's hard.

It's easy to cry that you're beaten -- and die;
It's easy to crawfish and crawl;
But to fight and to fight when hope's out of sight --
Why, that's the best game of them all!
And though you come out of each gruelling bout,
All broken and beaten and scarred,
Just have one more try -- it's dead easy to die,
It's the keeping-on-living that's hard.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 10:40 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
1- We see that the natural and healthy desires of the people are generally in return (for example, the existence / presence of water as a response to the desire for drinking water, etc.).

2- So it is wiser to think that paradise exists.
Who said it is my desire at all for there to be a Paradise?

And by that logic, Christians who surely don't desire for there to be a Hell, would conclude that Hell doesn't exist because it's not something they desire. And yet they believe it exists.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 10:42 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Who said it is my desire at all for there to be a Paradise?

And by that logic, Christians who surely don't desire for there to be a Hell, would conclude that Hell doesn't exist because it's not something they desire. And yet they believe it exists.
Is Emre_1974tr trolling us?

I think they are.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 12:13 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
Two well fortified camps for sure. Emre has his wall of Koran which to him is infallible. The other side wants proof and builds a wall of doubt only facts and evidence can get through.

In this thread emre tosses his idea in no man's land because he is so sure it is going to convince us, it is based on his best source.

The other side demands proof outside the Koran. Archeology or some ancient text not the Koran, by now him using anything else seems a miracle.

And it goes nowhere because both sides are unwilling to concede even the tiniest scrap of thought that the other may be right.

A total waste of time if not to confirm to ourselves how right we are. Both sides.
Ladies and Gentlemen, place your bets because both sides cannot be correct.
Wrong. Imre thinks we are all jesus loving christian missionaries. Why? Well you will have to ask him why he harbours that particular delusion. Nevertheless, according to Emre, you, me and everyone else in this thread is a christian missionary.

Now can you explain to me why anyone should entertain such a bucket of bollocks?
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Old 3rd June 2019, 12:16 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Is Emre_1974tr trolling us?

I think they are.
I have formed a very different opinion.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 12:18 PM   #107
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I can give no reasons at all why there is value in engaging Emre.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 12:37 PM   #108
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Demand evidence

Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
I can give no reasons at all why there is value in engaging Emre.


Entertainment.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 01:26 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Nevertheless, according to Emre, you, me and everyone else in this thread is a christian missionary.

In another thread she/he explained that their belief is that nobody can renounce the religion they were born in because of tidledy-dee reasons (insert any emre-tresque pseudo-argument there), so as we "all" were born in European countries or their former American and Oceanian colonies, then we cannot be non-theists but Christians on short vacations at most.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 01:51 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
I can give no reasons at all why there is value in engaging Emre.
Intellectual, cultural, educational reasons, from the very beginning it was clear there were none. And I don't mean just this thread but the whole Emre's body of work and the magical number 19.

The real reasons are closer to the ones that inspire those who play Capture the Flag. And I say it this way just to be kind: participating in this forum is kind of an indoorsy sport.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 08:09 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Emre, this looks to me like a Frankenstein hybrid of a Said Nursi argument for the existence of paradise and the fine-tuned universe argument for the existence of a creator. This fails utterly as argument for either.
I was just preparing to say the origin of his argument. Said Nursi is a guy who built his entire "defense of the faith" on logical fallacies and it's very hard to cure the infected followers of his from these fallacies.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 08:13 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
1- We see that the natural and healthy desires of the people are generally in return (for example, the existence / presence of water as a response to the desire for drinking water, etc.).

2- People want to live in health, happiness and pleasure, blessings forever.

3- So it is wiser to think that Paradise exists.
Do you even know what "wise" means ?
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Old 3rd June 2019, 08:19 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
This part is Nursi, isn’t it.
Actually the first part is more prominent as SN argument.
Natural desires being satisfied (by a god) implying that the biggest natural desire for eternal existence (and happiness) will also be answered. That's what the OP is trying to convey.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 08:23 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Bu ne demek ya?
Akıllı bir adam olsaydı önce İngilizce öğrenir öyle gelirdi buraya.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 08:31 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
No, "Secret book" defends pagan thought / brain power absurdity.

There is no thought power in my sentences. I'm showing the opposite.
Friends! Beware, we're dealing with a "secret" pagan here, disguised as a muslim..
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Old 3rd June 2019, 08:39 PM   #116
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In the light of your newest evidence, can you explain what the boys glittering like hidden pearls, serving man in the heaven imply ?
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Old 4th June 2019, 03:54 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
In another thread she/he explained that their belief is that nobody can renounce the religion they were born in because of tidledy-dee reasons (insert any emre-tresque pseudo-argument there), so as we "all" were born in European countries or their former American and Oceanian colonies, then we cannot be non-theists but Christians on short vacations at most.

By that logic most Iranian Muslims are “really” Zoroastrians, because that was the dominant religion in what is now modern-day Iran before Islam caught on. If conversion isn’t possible then there was never a “real” spread of Islam in Iran.

Such an argument is absurd of course, but that’s the consequence of the “logic” that concludes all Europeans are “really” Christian.
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Old 5th June 2019, 02:52 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by LarryS View Post
Are you suggesting that: Intent comes before, is primary; and that (what we call) matter is secondary? By 'matter' would include Paradise (all things good) and also all things not so good. IOW, the Earth is a product of desire?
We desire the blessings of Allah.
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Old 5th June 2019, 02:55 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Tormac View Post
Apparently I do not understand the point of your original post then Emre_1974tr.

Doesn't the whole of your argument revolve around the notion that those who want water receive it? That is what you said.

Could you try to rephrase your argument in a different way then if it does not revolve around what you said in your original post?

While I am have a strong grasp on the theology of Azathoth the blind idiot God, seed of Chaos, your post is apparently too disorganized for me to understand.

Thank you for any clarification.

No, I told that we wanted the water that was already there.

I didn't say people got their wishes.

I said people desire things that exist.

Last edited by Emre_1974tr; 5th June 2019 at 02:57 PM.
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Old 5th June 2019, 02:58 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
We desire the blessings of Allah.
I don't know who you mean by we but I for one do not.
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