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Tags Australia history , Australia incidents , Australia issues , William Slim

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Old 7th June 2019, 12:01 AM   #41
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Did you miss the part where the committee recommended against renaming Haig Park, reasoning that the events that Haig was involved in would "help inform discussion around Australia’s experience in WWI"? Still think it's all about rewriting history?
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Old 7th June 2019, 12:05 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Did you miss the part where the committee recommended against renaming Haig Park, reasoning that the events that Haig was involved in would "help inform discussion around Australiaís experience in WWI"? Still think it's all about rewriting history?
That I agree with

Sorry. I stupidly was hazing the line with what the US is doing and what Aus is doing
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Old 7th June 2019, 12:26 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
So "alleged" means guilty?
Do you think that a corpse enjoys the living person's presumption of innocence under the law in perpetuity?

What does "presumption of innocence" actually mean to a person who even in theory will never face arrest or imprisonment, can never be put on trial, can never face an accuser, and so forth? Does a person's death preemptively nullify any implication of any facts discovered about them after their death?
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Old 7th June 2019, 12:26 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
A bit of local news.



William Slim Drive to be renamed following Government review into place names







So what do you think? Should things be renamed if the people they were named after are discovered to have been terrible people?
100 year rule.
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Old 7th June 2019, 12:26 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Did you miss the part where the committee recommended against renaming Haig Park, reasoning that the events that Haig was involved in would "help inform discussion around Australiaís experience in WWI"? Still think it's all about rewriting history?
Now this is where the committee has drunk the cool aid. As I said earlier, I don't think of Bolte when I drive over the Bolte Bridge. Does this committee really think people will say "oh, I'm in Haig Park, so I will now go and research this Haig guy, whoever he is. A footballer maybe? Anyway I will make sure I will be able to engage in informed discussion about whatever this guy did".

This issue of zero interest to the vast majority of the public and only resonates with the chattering class, of which I'm one I suppose. What people will be certainly pissed off about is when they are looking for "******* William Slim Drive" when they are running late for a plane.

Politicians, even those in a Territory the size of a Sydney suburb, should have better things to do.
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Old 7th June 2019, 05:29 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Change the name to Virginia Slim Drive and have billboards erected every few kilometres in her honour.
Fun fact. Canberra doesn't have billboards. They are prohibited.
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Old 7th June 2019, 05:56 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Fun fact. Canberra doesn't have billboards. They are prohibited.
Bloody hell, you are right. How did Canberra cope without Palmerís Make Australia Great billboards....
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Old 7th June 2019, 06:01 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Iíve said this in other similar threads about statues and so on, if you judged every historical figure on todayís standards, no statues would survive. Churchill? Nasty piece of work, sexist, probably racist. Out with you. Every royal, general, admiral and political leader prior to the 20th century? Racists, autocrats, bullies all of you. No statues, no names.

History shouldnít work like that.
True.

Here's an alternative: stop giving people names to roads!
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Old 7th June 2019, 09:26 AM   #49
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How long until Michael Jackson Avenue is renamed?
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Old 7th June 2019, 09:35 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
For the third time, No-one really doubts it.

Since it's clear that I'm going to have to spell it out because no-one's looking at the link I provided, Slim was the patron of Fairbridge Farm, which at the time was assisting with several child migration programs. In 2007, several people came forward to say that they had been sexually abused by Slim at the farm, and by 2014 it had been referred to the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse.

According to one report, up to 60% of children who went through Fairbridge Farm were sexually abused.
What that link doesnít prove is whether slim was part of it. Governor generals are probably patrons to a lot of things.

(Trivia: my dad and uncle were sent Rhodesia as part of the Fairbridge scheme)
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Old 7th June 2019, 09:49 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
A bit of local news.

William Slim Drive to be renamed following Government review into place names

So what do you think? Should things be renamed if the people they were named after are discovered to have been terrible people?
San Francisco re-named Army street Cesar Chavez Blvd:

http://www.foundsf.org/index.php?tit...ez/Army_Street

This view of Chavez as a leader is not discussed in S.F. politics:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...chavez/308557/

He embraced Ferdinand Marcos and the Synanon

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synanon

philosophy. If that shouldn't disqualify someone from public approval I don't know what would.
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Old 7th June 2019, 06:15 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Iíve said this in other similar threads about statues and so on, if you judged every historical figure on todayís standards, no statues would survive. Churchill? Nasty piece of work, sexist, probably racist. Out with you. Every royal, general, admiral and political leader prior to the 20th century? Racists, autocrats, bullies all of you. No statues, no names.

History shouldnít work like that.
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
A lot of Churchillís attitudes, behaviours and decisions are abhorrent by the contemporary standards of some. Like Slim, he was a war hero. You have judged Slim to be not appropriate to be commemorated on the basis of an untried allegation. What about Churchill?
Let us judge people by the standards of the day. Was it legal to abuse children in the 1950s and before? If not, then the road should be renamed. As for Churchill was it illegal then to be a nasty piece of work, sexist, probably racist? I doubt it. So Churchill is ok, William Slim is not. And that is by the criteria of judging people by the standard of the day.
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Old 7th June 2019, 06:58 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Let us judge people by the standards of the day. Was it legal to abuse children in the 1950s and before? If not, then the road should be renamed. As for Churchill was it illegal then to be a nasty piece of work, sexist, probably racist? I doubt it. So Churchill is ok, William Slim is not. And that is by the criteria of judging people by the standard of the day.
Gut feel? The vibe?

All we have are allegations decades after the alleged offences.

And your suggestion to judge people by the standards of their day is exactly what Iím arguing. Of course I donít want Churchillís name erased. Nor do I want to see the destruction of statues of past great leaders who might fail every character test today.
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Old 7th June 2019, 07:03 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Gut feel? The vibe?

All we have are allegations decades after the alleged offences.
.
Some similar high profile allegations made in the uk have ended up being found to be without merit (after trashing someoneís reputation), so Iíd like a bit more before trashing a war hero.
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Old 8th June 2019, 01:51 AM   #55
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Charismatic sociopaths can make excellent wartime leaders. There are living survivors of abuse from Slim. I see nothing wrong with admitting to ourselves that just what war means. What it takes to win. What it means when we delude ourselves about protecting our heroes from scrutiny.
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Old 8th June 2019, 04:03 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Who's being convicted? The guy's dead. Also, his sexual assault of minors is pretty well established as fact. The impetus for the name change wasn't some random politician, it was a submission to the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse. And it wasn't some nameless nobody politician who announced the decision, it was Mick Gentleman, who is a veteran MLA and quite well-regarded in the community.

Actually there is a fairly substantial cost to changing the name of a major road as all signage, maps and related records need to be updated.

ETA but that's obvious so I'm not sure why I mentioned it. Maybe I'm in a bit of a **** mood tonight as well.
I now acknowledge you beat me to it - I answered that post immediately on seeing it...…….


Nevermind, I did not click to post it apparently. It is early here.

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Old 8th June 2019, 05:58 AM   #57
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There are too many people in this thread that I like. I think I will exit stage left.
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Old 8th June 2019, 06:07 AM   #58
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Anything once called 'Hitler Drive' or Stalin Walk' has probably been changed by now.
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Old 8th June 2019, 06:47 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Anything once called 'Hitler Drive' or Stalin Walk' has probably been changed by now.

Even if only in the interest of fairness. Why should Hitler get to drive while Stalin has to walk?
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Old 8th June 2019, 01:15 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
A bit of local news.

William Slim Drive to be renamed following Government review into place names



So what do you think? Should things be renamed if the people they were named after are discovered to have been terrible people?

Depends on how terrible. Then again, what would be so bad about Ivan The Terrible Lane?

I'll keep it simple and just vote "no". Someone will always complain no mater what. And, as usual, who decides how bad "bad" is? Tired of this crap.
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Old 8th June 2019, 03:05 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Depends on how terrible. Then again, what would be so bad about Ivan The Terrible Lane?



I'll keep it simple and just vote "no". Someone will always complain no mater what. And, as usual, who decides how bad "bad" is? Tired of this crap.
As usual, norms are decided by society. The recent royal Commission into child sexual abuse has uncovered a genuine unthinkable range of crimes and horror that was tolerated in those days. Slim is just one more actor in that era where abuse of children was mostly hidden and ignored.
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Old 8th June 2019, 03:44 PM   #62
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King County, Washington, used to be named after William Rufus DeVane King, who had just been elected Vice President when it was established. That's the county Seattle is in; and thus the tail that wags the dog in my state.
In 1986, the county was renamed in honor of Martin Luther King, Jr.; because the other King had owned slaves.
W.R.D. King was also perhaps gay, and perhaps the lover of President James Buchanan. That would have been a point in his favor in present-day Seattle.
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Old 9th June 2019, 09:00 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Bloody hell, you are right. How did Canberra cope without Palmerís Make Australia Great billboards....
Pretty nicely, actually.
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Old 10th June 2019, 03:42 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
A bit of local news.

William Slim Drive to be renamed following Government review into place names

So what do you think? Should things be renamed if the people they were named after are discovered to have been terrible people?
I think you mean "accused" there.
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Old 10th June 2019, 03:47 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Who's being convicted? The guy's dead. Also, his sexual assault of minors is pretty well established as fact.
No, that details accusations.

Quote:
The impetus for the name change wasn't some random politician, it was a submission to the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse.
Did that Commission actually make any pronouncement on the accusations against Slim?
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Old 10th June 2019, 06:28 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
No, that details accusations.
Yes, accusations. Because that's all you have when the alleged perpetrator is dead. To prove anything, you'd need a medium.

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Did that Commission actually make any pronouncement on the accusations against Slim?
It includes a case study from Fairbridge Farm, but falls short of mentioning Governor General Sir William Slim by name. His victims have mentioned him by name, which you will know if you read the Wikipedia article and the related links. Most of what we know has been reported in the media. Are you suggesting that the ABC has taken part in a conspiracy to falsely defame a famous dead man?
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Old 10th June 2019, 06:40 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
, which you will know if you read the Wikipedia article and the related links.
This wiki article?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation
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Old 10th June 2019, 08:20 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
No, that details accusations.



Did that Commission actually make any pronouncement on the accusations against Slim?

What it made clear was that child abuse was rampant and out of control for years beyond what people imagined.
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Old 10th June 2019, 09:56 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Oh, so you're also of the opinion that the Australian national broadcaster is wilfully participating in a conspiracy to defame a famous dead man.
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Old 11th June 2019, 04:16 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes, accusations. Because that's all you have when the alleged perpetrator is dead. To prove anything, you'd need a medium.

It includes a case study from Fairbridge Farm, but falls short of mentioning Governor General Sir William Slim by name. His victims have mentioned him by name, which you will know if you read the Wikipedia article and the related links. Most of what we know has been reported in the media. Are you suggesting that the ABC has taken part in a conspiracy to falsely defame a famous dead man?
So basically just hearsay. We know in the UK that some accusations have been thrown around, investigated, and - eventually - been found wanting. One prolific "accuser" is now being prosecuted. Simple accusations aren't enough.

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Old 11th June 2019, 04:17 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
What it made clear was that child abuse was rampant and out of control for years beyond what people imagined.
That's not what I asked.
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Old 11th June 2019, 05:16 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Oh, so you're also of the opinion that the Australian national broadcaster is wilfully participating in a conspiracy to defame a famous dead man.
Some widely reported UK accusations were thrown out. Was the BBC involved in a conspiracy to defame famous men?
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Old 11th June 2019, 05:30 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
So basically just hearsay. We know in the UK that some accusations have been thrown around, investigated, and - eventually - been found wanting. One prolific "accuser" is now being prosecuted. Simple accusations aren't enough.
If you want to treat all news as hearsay, sure. You do that.
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Old 11th June 2019, 05:33 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
If you want to treat all news as hearsay, sure. You do that.
Do you have any news about these allegations that *isn't* unproven hearsay?
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Old 11th June 2019, 05:39 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Are you suggesting that the ABC has taken part in a conspiracy to falsely defame a famous dead man?
I'm okay with such a suggestion. I don't think the ABC occupies some privileged place in the reporting of the news.

I'm not suggesting there is such a conspiracy. I am "suggesting" that your appeal to the alleged truth and honor of the ABC is grossly irrational.

Unless the ABC has done some original investigative reporting of its own, complete with good citations to reliable documents that tell us new things about the case... Have they done that? Is that the basis of your appeal to their reporting?
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Old 11th June 2019, 06:43 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
A lot of Churchillís attitudes, behaviours and decisions are abhorrent by the contemporary standards of some. Like Slim, he was a war hero. You have judged Slim to be not appropriate to be commemorated on the basis of an untried allegation. What about Churchill?
Are you suggesting child sexual abuse has simply fallen out of favor?
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Old 11th June 2019, 06:46 PM   #77
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Are you suggesting child sexual abuse has simply fallen out of favor?
What abuse?
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Old 11th June 2019, 07:35 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm okay with such a suggestion. I don't think the ABC occupies some privileged place in the reporting of the news.

I'm not suggesting there is such a conspiracy. I am "suggesting" that your appeal to the alleged truth and honor of the ABC is grossly irrational.

Unless the ABC has done some original investigative reporting of its own, complete with good citations to reliable documents that tell us new things about the case... Have they done that? Is that the basis of your appeal to their reporting?
Did you watch the programs linked in the footnotes to the Wikipedia page? How do you know the ABC didn't do original investigative reporting of its own? Here's the direct link to the story, including a transcript in case you don't want to watch a 9-minute video. It includes a first-person account from someone who was sexually abused by Slim.

https://www.abc.net.au/7.30/inquiry-...-child/8309506

In addition, and I acknowledge that this particular fact is extremely difficult for an American to grasp, the Australian Broadcasting Corporation is one of the most reliable and impartial news organisations in the world. To an American, the phrase "impartial news" is an oxymoron - a logical absurdity. But the ABC has a legislative requirement to be "accurate and impartial according to the recognized standards of objective journalism" (Australian Broadcasting Corporation Act 1983, Section 8.1.c). This is absolutely unheard-of in American journalism, so it's not surprising that an American can't understand the respect Australians have for our ABC.

Furthermore, the author of the report, Steve Cannane, is a skeptic! He has reported on child abuse within the Church of Scientology, the harassment of the parents of a deceased child by the anti-vaccination lobby and the failure of the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) to protect consumers from dodgy products. He's been a speaker at the Australian Skeptics National Convention and was given an honourable mention in the 2010 Australian Skeptic of the Year awards.

So you can call him and the ABC unreliable if you like, but I will call that ********.
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Old 11th June 2019, 08:25 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
the ABC has a legislative requirement to be "accurate and impartial according to the recognized standards of objective journalism"
Well, say no more - case closed!
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Old 11th June 2019, 08:50 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Well, say no more - case closed!
The ABC, unlike any journalistic organisation in America, was formed via an act of parliament. They are not a commercial for-profit company. They are a publicly-funded broadcaster. They do occasionally slip from the legally mandated high standard, but they've been accused of bias by both sides of government, so they've got to be pretty balanced.

Like I said, I get that this is hard for Americans to understand.

And anyway, we're not talking about the ABC in this thread, we're talking about when it is and is not appropriate to change the name of a road.
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