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Old 10th June 2019, 08:51 AM   #81
Belz...
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
It plays into the racist/xenophobic narrative that the brown people are destroying Europe, and this is the fault of Europeans not bothering to have kids, which forces us to "import" evil brown rapists and Muslims. Racist dog-whistles, in other words.
Right. It's cloaked in some sort of psychology argument about how people with children are more likely to care about the future (which isn't true), but upon inspection it's pretty clear that the "future" we're meant to care about is that of whites.
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Old 10th June 2019, 08:52 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I am like, who are these dolts who are "terrified" of socialized medicine? Of course, they never explain what terrifies them.
DEATH PANELS!!!!
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Old 10th June 2019, 08:56 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Also childless European: In USA no one go to other country.

Childless European logic: everyone wants in America, no one wants to leave, but it still sucks somehow.

Really? No one wants to leave?! How about the ones who actually do leave?

Quote:
The USA and Germany are number 3 and 4
Record-breaking number of immigrants to Denmark (dr.dk, Nov. 14, 2013)

It's hard to build a wall in the Atlantic Ocean, but I guess we'll have to try ...
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Old 10th June 2019, 08:57 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Every day I get a "Quora Feed" to my gmail account, and I don't know how many times I have seen the question, "I am terrified about the possibility of socialized medicine like Canada. Someone help me?"

I am like, who are these dolts who are "terrified" of socialized medicine? Of course, they never explain what terrifies them.
The idea of both waiting lists (and yes, they are a major problem here in Canada) and the loss of control over your health care (even if "socialized" health care is cheaper than what they have in the U.S., some may prefer to pay more if they end up having more control at the end of the day).

Some people in the U.S. (especially the poor) will be much better off if the U.S. brought in a Sanders-style single player system. Other people however will be worse off (for example those in salaried positions with decent health care plans payed for through work).
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Old 10th June 2019, 09:00 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
I shudder to think what a liberal American Presidency would do for this country.

I can recommend this thread about Denmark, Venezuela, the USA, Fox News and Scandinavian-style socialism, which, I think, is what Bernie Sanders stands for: Denmark = Venezuela?!
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Old 10th June 2019, 09:03 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Other people however will be worse off (for example those in salaried positions with decent health care plans payed for through work).

I don't even think that would be the case. The ones who would be disadvantaged in comparison with the present situation would be the 0.1 per cent, who would have to pay taxes.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th June 2019, 09:21 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
“I’m right and you can never understand.”
I make no claim about America being right.
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Old 10th June 2019, 09:34 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
The idea of both waiting lists (and yes, they are a major problem here in Canada)
“Annoyance” is a better description than “problem”, as the things that need to get done right away almost always do. Waiting lists are more along the lines of “I’d like to do this right away and it’s annoying that I can’t but waiting won’t cause any long term problem”
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Old 10th June 2019, 09:46 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
I shudder to think what a liberal American Presidency would do for this country.
Rome fell in 1980, actually, when the last of the grand engineers of the future were replaced by parlor magicians, and knowledge as a source of lasting power was abandoned for faith in magic and quick fixes. Since then, the country has been in a dramatic race against time, increasingly feigning strength with show, not leadership prowess. A desperate race it continues to refuse to recognize or run. So it loses, as the brain drain (brains? who cares, I know!) accelerates and the center of knowledge power shifts. That's real power, the kind that makes the best weapons, saying bye-bye.

Canada needs a very big wall, and it has to start now.
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Old 10th June 2019, 10:13 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
“Annoyance” is a better description than “problem”, as the things that need to get done right away almost always do. Waiting lists are more along the lines of “I’d like to do this right away and it’s annoying that I can’t but waiting won’t cause any long term problem”
Let me tell you a true story about a pretty typical middle class Canadian. We'll call him Segosaur, er, Archibald Meatpants, no, Max Powers. Yeah, that's it. Max lives in one of the larger Canadian cities (so in theory is plenty of medical infrastructure in the area). He is also employed full-time in a salaried position. (He does have dental and eye care benefits covered through work.)

So, one day Max goes to his regular doctor. (He has a few prescriptions that need to be renewed.) No problem... his doctor is pretty good and is usually on the ball. He also mentions a few other things... a mole seems to be changing size (a possible sign of skin cancer). Plus, it has been observed by his girlfriend that he has a tendency to stop breathing in the night (a sign of sleep apnea). So, the doctor sends off a note to 2 specialists... a dermatologist and a sleep specialist. So far so good.

About half a year later, and he still has not had an appointment with either specialist. (He did contact his doctor multiple times just in case the paperwork got lost. He did get a call back basically saying "don't worry... they will contact you when they have a free appointment slot".

So, there he things sit... with the possibility of cancer eating away at his face. But at least with the sleep apnea he gets to spend more time worrying about it at night. And still no call from either specialist.

I would like you to tell Max Powers just how great his health care is, and that his problems are simply just an "annoyance".

Max is exactly the type of person that would be better off in the U.S. The type of career he has is the type where he would probably have health insurance through work, and the U.S. does not have the same problems with waiting lists that they have in Canada. (They do have problems, just not with waiting lists.)

Yes, if something happened that needed immediate attention he would probably get immediate treatment. (A few years ago he had to have his appendix removed, and he only had to spend 4 hours in the emergency waiting room.) But the whole "We treat the emergencies quickly so shut up about waiting lists" is bogus for a couple of reasons:

- It minimizes any suffering, treating it as if its irreleant. "Oh, you're in severe pain? But you're not going to die immediately so you can sit on the waiting list". I've got a cousin that had severe shoulder problems (I think it was a torn rotator cuff), and was on a waiting list for an MRI for months.

- It ignores the risks that can occur from illnesses that are not immediately life threatening but can affect health long term. For example, sleep apnea (you know, one of the possible problems Max Powers has) can lead to high blood pressure and strokes. If someone needs (for example) a hip or knee replacement they will probably not be very active, and the lack of exercise can also cause premature death.
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Old 10th June 2019, 10:15 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
DEATH PANELS!!!!
I'm against socialized health care, but I'm for Death Panels.

Okay not Death Panels so much as I think I should be allowed to kill anyone who annoys me.
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Old 10th June 2019, 10:22 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
I have yet to hear a sound argument against socialized health-care in the US that doesn’t boil down to, “but poor people will be treated as well as I am!”
The first thing you do is have to figure out what you mean by "socialized health care".

Do you men a true "single payer" system (similar to what Sanders is proposing, and what Canada has, for non-dental/non-vision health care), but where the delivery can be done through private practice?

Do you men full government control over all aspects of health care? (e.g. all doctors employed by the government; no private hospitals)

Do you mean universal coverage, but one that allow private insurance if so desired?

The problem is, people often confuse these. People hear Sanders say "single payer" and they think he just means "universal coverage", ignoring the fact that the 2 of them are different things.
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Old 10th June 2019, 10:39 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Re: Health care and 'socialized medicine'....
Quote:
Other people however will be worse off (for example those in salaried positions with decent health care plans payed for through work).
I don't even think that would be the case. The ones who would be disadvantaged in comparison with the present situation would be the 0.1 per cent, who would have to pay taxes.
Actually yes it is the case.

The U.S. system does have major problems... its extremely expensive, and a huge segment of the population does not get adequate coverage. So I'm not trying to absolve the U.S. or claim it system is "best in the world'.

But... most people do have coverage, either through work (155 million), through private insurance/Obamacare (102 million), or medicare/medicaid/other government programs (121 million). And the U.S. does not have a problem with waiting lists.

A salaried person probably has insurance through work (and if not, they can probably afford to get insurance through Obamacare). And if a person does have insurance they can probably get their care without having to worry about waiting lists.

Again, I'm not necessarily saying the U.S. system is perfect and doesn't need to be fixed. (The best systems in the world give universal coverage, but combine private and public systems.) I'm just saying that most people do get good medical care in the U.S., and I can't blame a person if they worry about the potential of losing that good medical care (for themselves) that they currently in order to go to a single-payer system (with its wait list problems) just because "well, everyone will be the same".
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Old 10th June 2019, 11:06 AM   #94
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Even I, with my extremely limited understanding of politics, am well aware that the United States cannot by definition become anything even close to what Venezuela is, because Venezuela has a centralized government and the US has a federal government. Not to mention both countries are very, very, very different, both politically, economically, socially, culturally, infrastructure-wise, etc.... But people will keep making these idiotic comparisons and prophecies.

Also, Bernie Sanders is not, as I understand, proposing a Socialist government like Venezuela or China.... He's proposing a Social Democracy. A very different system that reconciles some aspects of Socialism with aspects of Capitalism.
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Old 10th June 2019, 11:07 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
The problem is, people often confuse these. People hear Sanders say "single payer" and they think he just means "universal coverage", ignoring the fact that the 2 of them are different things.
Obamacare is a path to UHC and for all its faults it had/has great potential. Too bad Republicans disavowed this conservative plan when it was proposed by Democrats. Maybe it needs rebranding - they could call it "the Affordable Care Act." Don't know if Dems are working on this.
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Old 10th June 2019, 11:22 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
I shudder to think what a liberal American Presidency would do for this country.
I always notice that they suggest Venezuela as opposed to Norway, Sweden, Germany and other Western European countries that are far more liberal than any Democrat in the US.
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Old 10th June 2019, 11:27 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Obamacare is a path to UHC and for all its faults it had/has great potential. Too bad Republicans disavowed this conservative plan when it was proposed by Democrats. Maybe it needs rebranding - they could call it "the Affordable Care Act." Don't know if Dems are working on this.
I would recommend calling it the "U.S.A. Number 1 in freedom in health care freedom act". And put a picture of a bald eagle on the first page.
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Old 10th June 2019, 11:29 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
I shudder to think what a liberal American Presidency would do for this country.
That buzzing sound is your post going past me without any interaction of understanding.
There are those of us you should really fear!
The progressives!

So somehow the 'check and balances' of our multi tiered government just disappear when Sanders get elected?
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Old 10th June 2019, 11:31 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I always notice that they suggest Venezuela as opposed to Norway, Sweden, Germany and other Western European countries that are far more liberal than any Democrat in the US.
And magically ignore how exactly our government has been actively involved in ruining Venezuela
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Old 10th June 2019, 11:32 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
I shudder to think what a liberal American Presidency would do for this country.
Well if that is the case, then I suggest that you start stocking up on guns and sweaters now in order to avoid the rush later.
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Old 10th June 2019, 11:38 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
And magically ignore how exactly our government has been actively involved in ruining Venezuela
I get what you're saying but comments like this always come across as a sort of surface level ironic "Socialism can't fail in America because America won't be there to undermine it."

Again I'm not getting too deep into the weeds here, but how much Americans like (or trust or both depending on how you want to look at it) is a not insignificant factor in how effective it would be here.
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Old 10th June 2019, 11:50 AM   #102
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A socilist and a solipsist walk into a bar...
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Old 10th June 2019, 11:51 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I always notice that they suggest Venezuela as opposed to Norway, Sweden, Germany and other Western European countries that are far more liberal than any Democrat in the US.
Australia comes to mind as well, and in some ways it's more analogous to the U.S.
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Old 10th June 2019, 11:54 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again I'm not getting too deep into the weeds here, but how much Americans like (or trust or both depending on how you want to look at it) is a not insignificant factor in how effective it would be here.
How much Americans like or trust what?
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Old 10th June 2019, 11:56 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Also, Bernie Sanders is not, as I understand, proposing a Socialist government like Venezuela or China.... He's proposing a Social Democracy. A very different system that reconciles some aspects of Socialism with aspects of Capitalism.
You're right... the proper label for Sanders would be "social democrat" rather than 'socialist'

I think there are 2 problems here:

- Sanders himself has (I think) used the term 'socialist' himself.

- Just like things like "single payer", the term is often misused or misunderstood by people on all parts of the political spectrum
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Old 10th June 2019, 12:01 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
How much Americans like or trust what?
Socialism / the government (or the efficiency of their government, however you want to look at it) and assorted..ness.
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Old 10th June 2019, 12:02 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
You're right... the proper label for Sanders would be "social democrat" rather than 'socialist'

I think there are 2 problems here:

- Sanders himself has (I think) used the term 'socialist' himself.

- Just like things like "single payer", the term is often misused or misunderstood by people on all parts of the political spectrum
He has to cater to his audience, I suppose. In the US, "socialist" seems to have come to refer to anyone who is left of the status quo.

"Social democrat" is even worse, you're a socialist AND a Democrat !
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Old 10th June 2019, 12:06 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Let me tell you a true story about a pretty typical middle class Canadian. We'll call him Segosaur, er, Archibald Meatpants, no, Max Powers. Yeah, that's it. Max lives in one of the larger Canadian cities (so in theory is plenty of medical infrastructure in the area). He is also employed full-time in a salaried position. (He does have dental and eye care benefits covered through work.)

So, one day Max goes to his regular doctor. (He has a few prescriptions that need to be renewed.) No problem... his doctor is pretty good and is usually on the ball. He also mentions a few other things... a mole seems to be changing size (a possible sign of skin cancer). Plus, it has been observed by his girlfriend that he has a tendency to stop breathing in the night (a sign of sleep apnea). So, the doctor sends off a note to 2 specialists... a dermatologist and a sleep specialist. So far so good.

About half a year later, and he still has not had an appointment with either specialist. (He did contact his doctor multiple times just in case the paperwork got lost. He did get a call back basically saying "don't worry... they will contact you when they have a free appointment slot".
I could give my own counter example of being able to see a dermatologist reactively quickly for a non-critical issue but that would miss the point. There is certainly room for improvement in Canada’s healthcare, our system ranks 30th in the world for performance and we spend more than many of the countries ahead of us. The underlying question here is whether the average person would fair better under the Canadian system of the US system and most studies find that Canada achieves equal or slightly better performance for about half the cost.

As to why we fall behind other countries? One factor is undoubtedly that we compete with the US for Doctors. This raises costs and reduces availability for many procedures and specialties. Another is that doctors themselves are small, independent businessmen. In a system where the care was provided by the government and not just the insurance, you’d end up in a larger system with more options instead of just being referred to a single dermatologist who may or may not be able to see you quickly.
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Old 10th June 2019, 12:10 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again I'm not getting too deep into the weeds here, but how much Americans like (or trust or both depending on how you want to look at it) is a not insignificant factor in how effective it would be here.
How much Americans like or trust what?
Here you go:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I get what you're saying but comments like this always come across as a sort of surface level ironic "Socialism can't fail in America because America won't be there to undermine it."
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Old 10th June 2019, 12:19 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
The idea of both waiting lists (and yes, they are a major problem here in Canada) and the loss of control over your health care (even if "socialized" health care is cheaper than what they have in the U.S., some may prefer to pay more if they end up having more control at the end of the day).

Some people in the U.S. (especially the poor) will be much better off if the U.S. brought in a Sanders-style single player system. Other people however will be worse off (for example those in salaried positions with decent health care plans payed for through work).
I live in Britain which has socialized healthcare. However, it’s important to realise that socialized healthcare and private medical insurance are not mutually exclusive. One of the parts of my remuneration package as a salaried employee is private medical insurance. This allows me to jump the NHS queues for a lot of treatments.

Most British people don’t Have that option and have to put up with the queues, but they will never have to choose between bankruptcy and death. They never have to worry about the ambulance taking them to the wrong hospital in an emergency. On average they will have better outcomes than in the US and on average they pay much less for healthcare than Americans.
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Old 10th June 2019, 12:32 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
That buzzing sound is your post going past me without any interaction of understanding.
There are those of us you should really fear!
The progressives!

So somehow the 'check and balances' of our multi tiered government just disappear when Sanders get elected?
Why do you think that is unlikely? They disappeared in November 2016, so the possibility is not unprecedented.
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Old 10th June 2019, 12:35 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
You're right... the proper label for Sanders would be "social democrat" rather than 'socialist'

I think there are 2 problems here:

- Sanders himself has (I think) used the term 'socialist' himself.

- Just like things like "single payer", the term is often misused or misunderstood by people on all parts of the political spectrum
Yes, that certainly doesn't help Sanders. It also doesn't help that when he gets asked why he won't call Maduro a Socialist, Sanders doesn't call out the reason why he's being asked that. He should say something in the lines of "Look, I understand that your concern is that I have defined myself as a Socialist, which Maduro also defines himself as, and so, in the light of me not calling Maduro a dictator, what you're really asking whether or not I agree with his policies and consequently, whether I'm trying to promote a similar system of government in the US, to which the answer is no. The system I'm trying to implement is completely different from Maduro's, in that (insert examples here), etc etc."

But no, instead he dances around the question and doesn't address this problem which is the real concern people have in their minds. So I don't completely blame people for making the ignorant comparison between what Sanders is trying to accomplish and what Maduro is trying to accomplish.
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Old 10th June 2019, 12:38 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
He has to cater to his audience, I suppose. In the US, "socialist" seems to have come to refer to anyone who is left of the status quo.

"Social democrat" is even worse, you're a socialist AND a Democrat !
I wonder if that's what he's doing. I also wonder if that's how a Candidate for President should handle how he communicates to his voters, by using labels just because that's what people like to hear, even if the label is inaccurate. Because clearly, this isn't working in his favor. People are accusing Bernie of being a Socialist and he's not (But again, he's not trying to clarify much either) Doesn't seem very helpful to wear a label that's misleading to him. I really think people should become educated on what Social Democracy is, and stop treating words as if they had some sort of Spell-Enchantment power to them, that if you just say them, bad things happen.
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Old 10th June 2019, 12:41 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
I have yet to hear a sound argument against socialized health-care in the US that doesn’t boil down to, “but poor people will be treated as well as I am!”
I have always said that Americans would rather see their country burn than take the risk that someone, somewhere, might get something they don't deserve.

Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
“Annoyance” is a better description than “problem”, as the things that need to get done right away almost always do. Waiting lists are more along the lines of “I’d like to do this right away and it’s annoying that I can’t but waiting won’t cause any long term problem”
Yeah, no one is on a waiting list with broken legs or strokes.

And, the only way to not have waiting lists is for someone to go without care. Chances are, if you're not at least middle class with insurance through your work, that's you.
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Old 10th June 2019, 12:54 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
I have always said that Americans would rather see their country burn than take the risk that someone, somewhere, might get something they don't deserve.
To be fair, I do think that people should get what they deserve, and think that should be a founding principal of any effective grouping of people. Hard work should come with rewards, laziness and/or incompetence should not. Doesn't always work that way, but ideally it should.

I think the main issue isn't that some think this way and others don't. The problem is the definition of what people deserve; mine includes adequate food, shelter, and medical care, and at least the opportunity to put in that hard work and gain rewards thereby.
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Old 10th June 2019, 12:55 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
I could give my own counter example of being able to see a dermatologist reactively quickly for a non-critical issue but that would miss the point. There is certainly room for improvement in Canada’s healthcare, our system ranks 30th in the world for performance and we spend more than many of the countries ahead of us.
But, but... you said people stuck on wait list were just "annoyed"!

Come on... tell old Max Powers that his waiting to see if he actually has cancer is an annoyance! Tell him he's whining just because "boo hoo! I can't get tested for sleep apnea!"

Quote:
The underlying question here is whether the average person would fair better under the Canadian system of the US system and most studies find that Canada achieves equal or slightly better performance for about half the cost.
I am not denying that the Canadian system is cheaper. I am not denying that there are people who are far far worse off in the American system.

What I am saying is that there are people (and its not just some tiny group) who are better off under the American system system than Canadian.

Now, you do have a question... is it better to get slow service cheaply or fast service expensively. What a person's preference is is going to come down to personal choice. (In places like Britain people have a choice... national health care or private insurance. In Canada there is no choice.)

Quote:
As to why we fall behind other countries? One factor is undoubtedly that we compete with the US for Doctors. This raises costs and reduces availability for many procedures and specialties. Another is that doctors themselves are small, independent businessmen. In a system where the care was provided by the government and not just the insurance, you’d end up in a larger system with more options instead of just being referred to a single dermatologist who may or may not be able to see you quickly.
First of all, keep in mind that its not just the doctor shortage that is an issue... Things like MRIs (which do need trained staffed but not necessarily doctors) often have waiting lists that are months long. Competition is not an issue with those tools... government management is.

Secondly, lets look at doctors... yes, we are in competition with the U.S.... but competition is not the only reason for shortages. (Occasionally the government has stepped in and limited the number of students in medical school.) And even when doctors do leave, the problem is sometime related to how we run our health care system. (With our set fee schedule and our lack of infrastructure, many saw the U.S. as a place where they can do better work and get paid better.) Complaining about doctor competition because of the environment we've established for our health care system is like complaining about how being outside in the rain is causing us to get wet.

As for your line: "In a system where the care was provided by the government and not just the insurance, you’d end up in a larger system with more options..." Not really sure what you were referring to here. I'm in Canada (so health care is paid for by the government). The specialists that the doctor was referring me to were not part of his practice and he could have used any specialists in the city. Just that there were none available.
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Old 10th June 2019, 01:02 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
Quote:
The idea of both waiting lists (and yes, they are a major problem here in Canada) and the loss of control over your health care (even if "socialized" health care is cheaper than what they have in the U.S., some may prefer to pay more if they end up having more control at the end of the day).

Some people in the U.S. (especially the poor) will be much better off if the U.S. brought in a Sanders-style single player system. Other people however will be worse off (for example those in salaried positions with decent health care plans payed for through work).
I live in Britain which has socialized healthcare. However, it’s important to realise that socialized healthcare and private medical insurance are not mutually exclusive.
But that's the thing...

In Canada, private insurance is strictly forbidden (for basic services... some stuff like eye care and dental still allow it). And the plan that Bernie Sanders wants to bring in will similarly ban private insurance.

Quote:
One of the parts of my remuneration package as a salaried employee is private medical insurance. This allows me to jump the NHS queues for a lot of treatments.

Most British people don’t Have that option and have to put up with the queues, but they will never have to choose between bankruptcy and death. They never have to worry about the ambulance taking them to the wrong hospital in an emergency. On average they will have better outcomes than in the US and on average they pay much less for healthcare than Americans.
Even if a person can't afford private insurance, they still benefit from it. The private insurance brings in money and resources into the system, people using the private care don't need to join the queue for your national health care system. And if there is any unused infrastructure in the private system it can be used by the public system (subject to availability).

I like the British system. A lot more than the Canadian or American system. The problem is, whenever I point out the faults in the Canadian system they seem to jump on the whole "Look how bad it is in America" argument, forgetting that there are other systems out there besides Canada's and America's.
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Old 10th June 2019, 01:10 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Quote:
“Annoyance” is a better description than “problem”, as the things that need to get done right away almost always do. Waiting lists are more along the lines of “I’d like to do this right away and it’s annoying that I can’t but waiting won’t cause any long term problem”
Yeah, no one is on a waiting list with broken legs or strokes.
No, but they're on the waiting list for MRIs with things like torn rotator cuff injuries. And I'm on the waiting list for a test for a condition that contributes to a stroke. I know other people who had to wait half a year to get a knee replacement.

(Again, that's Canada. Where we have a 'single payer' system of the type that Sanders wants to bring in.)

Why exactly are people assuming that "if you're not bleeding out and dying right there on the hospital floor you have no reason to complain"? Seriously, where exactly does that logical disconnect come from?

Quote:
And, the only way to not have waiting lists is for someone to go without care. Chances are, if you're not at least middle class with insurance through your work, that's you.
In the U.S., almost everyone is covered by either work insurance, some form of Obamacare, or medicare.
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Old 10th June 2019, 01:29 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
In the U.S., almost everyone is covered by either work insurance, some form of Obamacare, or medicare.
How many are almost everyone?

And to those who are covered, will their insurance company sign off on everything they need? Remember that insurance companies make their money by not paying out.

Around 530 000 families file bankruptcy every year in the US because of medical bills.

How many in Canada?

Could you have been one of them under a US system?

If not, do you think it would be worth it?

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/11/this...ankruptcy.html
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Old 10th June 2019, 01:52 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Quote:
In the U.S., almost everyone is covered by either work insurance, some form of Obamacare, or medicare.
How many are almost everyone?
I believe the number is >90%.

Quote:
And to those who are covered, will their insurance company sign off on everything they need? Remember that insurance companies make their money by not paying out.
To those who are in Canada (where we have single-payer health care), will the government sign off on everything they need?

The fact that Canadian health care is government funded doesn't necessarily mean that everything a patient needs will be funded either. Decisions need to get made, and its possible that some patents in Canada will get care that is less than optimal because someone in the government said "Taxpayers can't afford X."

Quote:
Around 530 000 families file bankruptcy every year in the US because of medical bills.

How many in Canada?
That many people in the U.S. have problems affording heath care is not in dispute. I have already acknowledged it as a failing of the U.S. system.

Why do you keep bringing it up?

I never ever claimed that everyone would be better under a U.S. style system. Only that some people would.
Quote:
Could you have been one of them under a US system?
Likely not.

As I pointed out before, my particular career (University educated/technology) is the type that is usually salaried and the type that employers would probably offer health insurance as part of the compensation.

Quote:
If not, do you think it would be worth it?
Again it would depend on my particular circumstances.

If I earned enough to pay for my own insurance, or could be covered under Obamacare, they yes, I would still be better off in the U.S. If I were earning minimum wage and could not afford private insurance? Then no, I wouldn't be better off. But once again, I'm not saying everyone is better off under an American style system, only some people are.

Why is that concept so hard for people to grasp?
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