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Old 19th November 2017, 08:00 PM   #961
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
If this is such a minor offense, why then did the republicans start using it as an epithet?

"Ha ha ha, we are going to insult them by saying "democrat party." Aren't we clever?"
"We find that insulting."
"Oh lighten up. What's the big deal? Micro-aggression!"
Oh please! I thought you were serious for a moment.
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Old 19th November 2017, 08:25 PM   #962
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Bi-partisanship "Whatboutism" and "Youtooism" via Grammar pedantry.

Truly we are living in a gilded age. How did we ever get so lucky?
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Old 19th November 2017, 09:08 PM   #963
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Not where it counts, loser.
Midwest flyover land is known for attitude. Not in a good way - electoral collegie way like the rest of the not particularly important states that get more than their fair share of representatives both in the House and in the Electoral College. Yes, the flyovers do not have a population that justifies that. Needs to be written out of US law!!!!

The losing is only due to that crap!!! The only reason for it involved slave states
and that excuse is very dead now.
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Old 20th November 2017, 02:38 AM   #964
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Not where it counts, loser.
Are you calling me a loser? Why?
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Old 20th November 2017, 04:03 AM   #965
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Even if things have gotten "that bad" and half the country has started worshiping a bottle of drain cleaner and thinking the moon is made of Silly Putty and all type AB- blood types need to be shipped back to Narnia.

Even if, even if a tipping point chunk of the population is some level of "wrong" or "bad" however you wish to define those terms and that's 100% true and accurate... okay and? Where do you go from there? So many people seem to think that just going "They're bad and wrong and beyond saving" is a meaningful stopping point in a democracy.

They aren't going away. You can't make a law that says "People I disagree with shouldn't be able to vote" or set up the voting systems to disenfranchise them, (especially since they are so much better at playing "the game.")

Again unless what you want is a constant state of perpetual lose where you can sit on your moral high ground with something to complain about, safe in the comforting idea that the only reason we have problem is that the "stupid masses" are keeping some elite set of special "good and correct" people off of the throne.
Well, that's the thing. I don't live in some liberal mecca, I live in a very blue collar part of the south that went heavily to Trump.
When it comes to important matters of politics, there's just no common ground.
They can be nice folks, good folks and not unintelligent, like gets presented here a lot.
It takes both sides to be willing to meet at that middle ground, and well they come out convinced Hillary and Obama were the great Satan, and Democrats are responsbile for the loss of the jobs they had when we were kids.
I work in a factory that used to hire 15 people. Now makes do with five. Not due completely to changing markets, we still get loads of work. But now we have three mills that do the bulk of it. Which requires a high level of education to program, but low effort to run. Not going to get paid well just for time spent anymore.
Thats the reality. And it's just not accepted.
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Old 20th November 2017, 06:36 AM   #966
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
If they have morally abhorrent believes, they should renounce them, yes. Do you hang around white supremacists, or do you not associate with those kinds of people?
I prefer just hanging white supremacists, but I do not hang around with them.
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Old 20th November 2017, 06:38 AM   #967
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
I prefer just hanging white supremacists, but I do not hang around with them.
Of course, only if they act on their stupidity..............
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Old 20th November 2017, 11:31 AM   #968
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Originally Posted by ShadowSot View Post
Well, that's the thing. I don't live in some liberal mecca, I live in a very blue collar part of the south that went heavily to Trump.
When it comes to important matters of politics, there's just no common ground.
They can be nice folks, good folks and not unintelligent, like gets presented here a lot.
It takes both sides to be willing to meet at that middle ground, and well they come out convinced Hillary and Obama were the great Satan, and Democrats are responsbile for the loss of the jobs they had when we were kids.
I work in a factory that used to hire 15 people. Now makes do with five. Not due completely to changing markets, we still get loads of work. But now we have three mills that do the bulk of it. Which requires a high level of education to program, but low effort to run. Not going to get paid well just for time spent anymore.
Thats the reality. And it's just not accepted.
The problem there is that they are NOT intelligent if they think manufacturing and similar jobs have not changed nor has the demand for workers changed. The only way it is the manufacturer's fault is if they were also stupid and did not adapt to changes. In which case they would not have cut-down, they would have gone out of business.
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Old 21st November 2017, 01:55 PM   #969
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Ah. Personally, I'd like to see our system scrapped altogether. Get rid of the electoral college, move towards something more democratic. But at the same time, move to a system that doesn't ignore small towns.
That's what the electoral college is supposed to do - strike a balance between population and location.

I would keep the electoral college. To me it makes sense (even when it leads to outcomes I don't like). But I would make a few tweaks - I'd get rid of gerrymandering the districts based on politics. We've got some awesome computing power nowadays, and plenty of analytic methods to evenly distribute representation across a population so that geographically tangent localities represent the same relative volumes of citizens without bringing part lines into the mix.

I'd also pro-rate the electoral votes, like Nebraska and Maine do. Whoever wins the district wins that electoral vote, and the two state-level votes go to whoever won the highest number of districts (or split if they're tied).

I think that would address a large number of the complaints about the electoral college, right there. But it would still preserve some degree of independence by locality... just so that California and New York don't band together and take over the world on the basis of having the most people.
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Old 21st November 2017, 01:57 PM   #970
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Originally Posted by sts60 View Post
"Republican". See, I can term-nanny both sides ;-)
I have no idea what you mean here.
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Old 21st November 2017, 01:59 PM   #971
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
If they have morally abhorrent believes, they should renounce them, yes. Do you hang around white supremacists, or do you not associate with those kinds of people?
You don't have many friends, do you?
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Old 21st November 2017, 02:02 PM   #972
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Even if things have gotten "that bad" and half the country has started worshiping a bottle of drain cleaner and thinking the moon is made of Silly Putty and all type AB- blood types need to be shipped back to Narnia.

Even if, even if a tipping point chunk of the population is some level of "wrong" or "bad" however you wish to define those terms and that's 100% true and accurate... okay and? Where do you go from there? So many people seem to think that just going "They're bad and wrong and beyond saving" is a meaningful stopping point in a democracy.

They aren't going away. You can't make a law that says "People I disagree with shouldn't be able to vote" or set up the voting systems to disenfranchise them, (especially since they are so much better at playing "the game.")

Again unless what you want is a constant state of perpetual lose where you can sit on your moral high ground with something to complain about, safe in the comforting idea that the only reason we have problem is that the "stupid masses" are keeping some elite set of special "good and correct" people off of the throne.
As much as I don't want to believe it... I'm beginning to think that is exactly what is wanted.

I'm not entirely certain, but I believe this is what would be called "virtue signaling".
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Old 21st November 2017, 02:06 PM   #973
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Midwest flyover land is known for attitude. Not in a good way - electoral collegie way like the rest of the not particularly important states that get more than their fair share of representatives both in the House and in the Electoral College. Yes, the flyovers do not have a population that justifies that. Needs to be written out of US law!!!!

The losing is only due to that crap!!! The only reason for it involved slave states
and that excuse is very dead now.
That's a whole lot of derision and condescension you're aiming at the places your food comes from. Seriously, didn't you ever watch Fight Club? Don't **** with the people in charge of your food.

Also, re: the blue... a whole lot of those interior states were never slave-holding states. Maybe you should re-evaluate your rationalization for disenfranchising such a large number of your fellow citizens.
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Old 21st November 2017, 02:07 PM   #974
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
You don't have many friends, do you?
Yes yes yes, just because they are white supremecists doesn't mean they are bad people, and you certainly can never call them deplorable. You have been clear about that for a long time.
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Old 21st November 2017, 02:21 PM   #975
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We're not talking about friends. We're not talking about who you hang out with, who you invite to dinner, who you want to date your daughter, who you like or respect, or whatever.

We're talking about how you interact with fellow citizens in a democracy who have the same level of rights in that democracy that you do when you feel that their opinions/stances are wrong and/or harmful.

Again not liking "Demographic X" doesn't make them go away. It doesn't reduce the power and influence they have over the election process.
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Old 21st November 2017, 05:02 PM   #976
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Again not liking "Demographic X" doesn't make them go away. It doesn't reduce the power and influence they have over the election process.
Liking them doesn't make them go away either, or reduce their power and influence.

And you are not going to change their minds. You can outvote them, or you can fail to outvote them. Those are the choices, and you're lucky to have those choices.
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Old 21st November 2017, 05:22 PM   #977
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Liking them doesn't make them go away either, or reduce their power and influence.

And you are not going to change their minds. You can outvote them, or you can fail to outvote them. Those are the choices, and you're lucky to have those choices.
If only.
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Old 21st November 2017, 05:31 PM   #978
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yes yes yes, just because they are white supremecists doesn't mean they are bad people, and you certainly can never call them deplorable. You have been clear about that for a long time.
I really recommend less hate in your diet. It'll do your heart good!
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Old 21st November 2017, 05:33 PM   #979
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Liking them doesn't make them go away either, or reduce their power and influence.

And you are not going to change their minds. You can outvote them, or you can fail to outvote them. Those are the choices, and you're lucky to have those choices.
If you cannot change their minds, then you are doomed to failure. Best to just toss in the towel now.

Alternatively, you could consider altering your statement to read: You are not going to change their minds as long as you keep treating them like offal.

At that point, you could maybe consider NOT condescendingly deriding a whole bunch of people, and maybe... you know... treating them like people for a change? You might actually be able to change their minds if your treat them like humans on a regular basis.
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Old 21st November 2017, 05:52 PM   #980
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
If you cannot change their minds, then you are doomed to failure. Best to just toss in the towel now.
False. It's just a matter of getting the vote out, which is much easier and more effective than vainly attempting to rectify Trumpkins' alternate reality.

Trump is a freakish anomaly who is reduced to taking false credit for an economic recovery and an ISIS-bashing, both of which were well underway before he was elected.

Trump's approval is currently below 40% and trending downward. If that gets reflected in the vote, the Republicans go down in flames in the midterms, and Trump will be the one who is doomed to failure.
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Old 21st November 2017, 05:57 PM   #981
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Trump's approval is currently below 40% and trending downward.
Right and he was behind in all the election polls too. Hillary was a 85-99% chance shoe-in. How'd that work out?
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Old 21st November 2017, 06:02 PM   #982
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Right and he was behind in all the election polls too. Hillary was a 85-99% chance shoe-in. How'd that work out?
Cherry-pick much? How often does that happen?

Getting the anti-Trump vote out will work better than trying to deprogram hard-wired Trumpkins.
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Old 21st November 2017, 06:02 PM   #983
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Trump's approval is currently below 40% and trending downward. If that gets reflected in the vote, the Republicans go down in flames in the midterms, and Trump will be the one who is doomed to failure.
Just because most people don't like Trump doesn't mean they're going to like your candidate any better... especially if that candidate's supporters are hell-bent on vilifying them and insisting that they can never be forgiven for their horrible sin...
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Old 21st November 2017, 06:07 PM   #984
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Just because most people don't like Trump doesn't mean they're going to like your candidate any better... especially if that candidate's supporters are hell-bent on vilifying them and insisting that they can never be forgiven for their horrible sin...
You're getting your people mixed up.

The people who dislike Trump are not the ones whose transgression is being discussed.

Hard-wired Trumpkins will never be among the hypothetical candidate's supporters. Coddling them will not alter that fact.
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Old 21st November 2017, 06:09 PM   #985
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Cherry-pick much? How often does that happen?

Getting the anti-Trump vote out will work better than trying to deprogram hard-wired Trumpkins.
Here's where your logic gets pretty thin.

A bit under half of the voting population aren't "hard-wired Trumpkins". They're people. You're not talking about the very small core of current supporters here - you're talking about all of the people who voted for him. That includes a whole lot of moderates and centrists... but you're lumping them all in with the group of people that you're not willing to forgive.

You're seem to think it's a worthwhile venture to try to disenfranchise a bit under half the US population by insisting that they are valueless and continuously insulting them. That really doesn't seem like a winning strategy to me.
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Old 21st November 2017, 06:10 PM   #986
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
You're getting your people mixed up.

The people who dislike Trump are not the ones whose forgiveness is being discussed.

Hard-wired Trumpkins will never be among the hypothetical candidate's supporters. Coddling them will not alter that fact.
Have you referenced the thread title, by chance?
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Old 21st November 2017, 06:19 PM   #987
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Here's where your logic gets pretty thin.

A bit under half of the voting population aren't "hard-wired Trumpkins". They're people. You're not talking about the very small core of current supporters here - you're talking about all of the people who voted for him. That includes a whole lot of moderates and centrists... but you're lumping them all in with the group of people that you're not willing to forgive.

You're seem to think it's a worthwhile venture to try to disenfranchise a bit under half the US population by insisting that they are valueless and continuously insulting them. That really doesn't seem like a winning strategy to me.
According to the polls, 58% of voters now disapprove of Trump after getting a good long look at him in action. Trump voters among that group can easily correct their error in the next election. Presumably they won't be voting to earn my forgiveness.

It's just a matter of getting them energized enough to go and vote.
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Old 21st November 2017, 10:43 PM   #988
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Right and he was behind in all the election polls too. Hillary was a 85-99% chance shoe-in. How'd that work out?

538 had her at 70% leading into the election. A little better than two chances out of three. Not the sort of thing to bet the farm on.

Some people need to learn more math if they thought that made her a shoo-in.
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Old 21st November 2017, 11:16 PM   #989
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Also, another problem when speaking of "forgiving" Trump voters, or any voters whose political sides disagree with yours: Even if you decide to "forgive" them, the concept itself is condescending. It's like saying "There there.... you acted foolishly but it's ok, I forgive you".

Once again, if anyone seriously want to fight polarization and engage with the other side in a constructive way, there has to be a change of attitude and language, so you're not simply antagonizing them.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 12:10 AM   #990
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This really is less about partisanship and more about reality vs. denial.

As mentioned, NPR listeners are just so much more informed than Fox viewers, never mind Breitbart.
What is the point of compromise between facts and made-up stuff?

Unreformed Trump voters have to be marginalized, not pandered to.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 01:50 AM   #991
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Even if things have gotten "that bad" and half the country has started worshiping a bottle of drain cleaner and thinking the moon is made of Silly Putty and all type AB- blood types need to be shipped back to Narnia.

Even if, even if a tipping point chunk of the population is some level of "wrong" or "bad" however you wish to define those terms and that's 100% true and accurate... okay and? Where do you go from there? So many people seem to think that just going "They're bad and wrong and beyond saving" is a meaningful stopping point in a democracy.

They aren't going away. You can't make a law that says "People I disagree with shouldn't be able to vote" or set up the voting systems to disenfranchise them, (especially since they are so much better at playing "the game.")

Again unless what you want is a constant state of perpetual lose where you can sit on your moral high ground with something to complain about, safe in the comforting idea that the only reason we have problem is that the "stupid masses" are keeping some elite set of special "good and correct" people off of the throne.
Democracy has already failed in America. The pessimist in me thinks we just end up all shooting each other. Dragging whole families out and killing them in the street based on the political signs they have in the yard.

Think Germany in the immediate aftermath of WW1 only way, way worse.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 01:53 AM   #992
Eddie Dane
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
The problem there is that they are NOT intelligent if they think manufacturing and similar jobs have not changed nor has the demand for workers changed. The only way it is the manufacturer's fault is if they were also stupid and did not adapt to changes. In which case they would not have cut-down, they would have gone out of business.
It's a combination of culture, intelligence and lack of accurate information. I only recently learned that about 80% of US manufacturing jobs lost since 2000 were lost to automation, not to China.

By culture, I mean: people identify with these blue collar jobs. The US airforce also tries to hang on to their beloved Top-Gun pilots who should almost all be replaced with drones.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 02:15 AM   #993
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
You're seem to think it's a worthwhile venture to try to disenfranchise a bit under half the US population by insisting that they are valueless and continuously insulting them. That really doesn't seem like a winning strategy to me.
Funny, that strategy seems to have worked pretty well for Republicans.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 03:55 AM   #994
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It's not slightly less than half the voters that needs to be disenfranchised. It's 35-40%, and only until they get their **** together and stop being stupid. Looking at the population as a whole, the percentage is even smaller. The trick is to get people who don't normally vote to vote. Trump managed that by appealing to racism. Democrats need to find another way.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 04:08 AM   #995
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I really recommend less hate in your diet. It'll do your heart good!
And of course more friends active in hate groups. That is good for you too apparently.
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Old 24th November 2017, 10:34 PM   #996
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
That's a whole lot of derision and condescension you're aiming at the places your food comes from. Seriously, didn't you ever watch Fight Club? Don't **** with the people in charge of your food.

Also, re: the blue... a whole lot of those interior states were never slave-holding states. Maybe you should re-evaluate your rationalization for disenfranchising such a large number of your fellow citizens.
No offence, but the reason I mention slave states is that they were the first to get extra influence in Washington (by counting slaves as partial people for getting a larger number of representatives in Congress and in the Electoral College) and later the government pulled the same crap when pulling in large states with small populations. Thus my concern with this bribery to get states to join in and want it ended. Population of legal citizens should work exactly the same in every state where number of reps or E.C. are involved. Removing the undue influence of the middle states and others that get a pass on proper population count and valuation - as should always have been the case.

Otherwise the country is giving extra points (representation) to some states the others are not getting. Supposedly we are all equal, but in reality our government fails at that.
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Old 24th November 2017, 10:39 PM   #997
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
That's what the electoral college is supposed to do - strike a balance between population and location.

I would keep the electoral college. To me it makes sense (even when it leads to outcomes I don't like). But I would make a few tweaks - I'd get rid of gerrymandering the districts based on politics. We've got some awesome computing power nowadays, and plenty of analytic methods to evenly distribute representation across a population so that geographically tangent localities represent the same relative volumes of citizens without bringing part lines into the mix.

I'd also pro-rate the electoral votes, like Nebraska and Maine do. Whoever wins the district wins that electoral vote, and the two state-level votes go to whoever won the highest number of districts (or split if they're tied).

I think that would address a large number of the complaints about the electoral college, right there. But it would still preserve some degree of independence by locality... just so that California and New York don't band together and take over the world on the basis of having the most people.
Fully agree with you on gerrymandering!!!! I like jail time (15-20 years) for any group putting out a districting map with any even slight sign of gerrymandering regardless of party or position in government!!!
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Old 24th November 2017, 10:42 PM   #998
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Oh, no I never did watch Fight Club - silliness annoys me - except for silliness in comedies!!!
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Old 24th November 2017, 11:52 PM   #999
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And of course more friends active in hate groups. That is good for you too apparently.
I pointed out before the election the exact same thing that Jemelle Hill noted on Twitter - Trump is clearly a white supremacist, who would move to create a white supremacist government. And this is exactly what he has done, so I see no need to forgive people who refuse to accept this plainly obvious fact, much less those who see it and approve of it. Screw 'em. For me, this isn't about me being "hateful", it's simply about having a government that isn't working to deport my friends and prevent me from voting, and which does work to restrain white nationalists and violently racist police.

As the saying goes, I'm less liberal, and more anti-evil. It just so happens that the GOP, as it currently operates, is the party of white supremacy and child molestation, both of which are evil.
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Old 25th November 2017, 09:46 AM   #1000
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I pointed out before the election the exact same thing that Jemelle Hill noted on Twitter - Trump is clearly a white supremacist, who would move to create a white supremacist government. And this is exactly what he has done, so I see no need to forgive people who refuse to accept this plainly obvious fact, much less those who see it and approve of it. Screw 'em. For me, this isn't about me being "hateful", it's simply about having a government that isn't working to deport my friends and prevent me from voting, and which does work to restrain white nationalists and violently racist police.

As the saying goes, I'm less liberal, and more anti-evil. It just so happens that the GOP, as it currently operates, is the party of white supremacy and child molestation, both of which are evil.
Unfortunate but very, very true!!!!!!!
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