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Tags donald trump , E. Jean Carroll , rape charges , Trump controversies

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Old 28th June 2019, 12:23 AM   #81
Puppycow
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
As I noted above, it's the media that pulled out the story from the book, it was never promoted and Trump's name apparently only appears once in the entire thing. I believe that it was the New York Times Book Reviewer that broke the story. If it's supposed to have been a publicity stunt for the book, it seems a really odd way to do it. Even more so that she was reluctant to discuss it at first.
Did you see the book excerpt she published in New York magazine?

https://www.thecut.com/2019/06/donal...deous-men.html

It's most definitely being used to promote sales of the book.
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Old 28th June 2019, 12:32 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Why should the number of allegations matter?
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Really? Is that a serious question?
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It absolutely is.

I dunno. Maybe this is a math problem for you? X unrpoven allegations = Y proven allegations? Should I ask you to show your work?

---

Should I ask you if you see how such a system could obviously be gamed by people who are long on hate and short on evidence?

No, it's not a math problem for me but it's obviously a reading comprehension problem for you as I did not say the number of allegations PROVE anything. But the number of women making similar allegations certainly adds more credibility.

Let's say 9 year old Bobby goes to his teacher and says "Joey hit me on the playground." Nobody saw it and there are no marks on Bobby. Joey says he didn't do it. Does Joey get detention for hitting Bobby? No. It's a 'he said, he said' situation. But then 21 of Bobby's classmates come forward and tell the teacher that Joey has also hit them on the playground but they were afraid to tell because Joey was bigger than them. Do those 21 kids coming forward PROVE Joey hit Bobby? No. But,who do you think is more credible? The 22 kids or Bobby?

But you know what I find the most sad? That this should even have to be explained to you.

Sadly, Trump was not wrong when assessed the blind loyalty of his base. He can do anything and they'll bend over and not only take it, but thank him for it while he's doing it.
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Old 28th June 2019, 12:35 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I think you're right. It's the feeling of power that drives all trolls.
They also get off on the attention they receive.
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Old 28th June 2019, 12:41 AM   #84
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Fwiw, another interview with Carroll:

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...ald-trump.html
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Old 28th June 2019, 01:01 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yeah, that totally makes sense. The press is dropping this story because they want to protect Trump.
The press isn't 'dropping this story' at all. It's being covered quite extensively. FOX is downplaying it and FOX's Tucker Carlson is basically calling Carroll a liar.
The conservative New York Post, whose former editor and current adviser Col Allan is a Trump friend and supporter, ordered the story pulled and it just disappeared. But other media outlets are definitely giving it a lot of attention.
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Old 28th June 2019, 04:47 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Much like many rapists, theprestige doesn't seem to distinguish between the two things:
1) finding the idea of rape sexy, i.e. the sexual fantasy where the woman actually decides for herself who is 'raping' her and how since it's all in her head, and
2) finding actual rape sexy.
No wonder it was so important to him to ruin the thread about the motivation of sexual coercers.
Did you actually just compare the prestige to a rapist? How is that allowed?
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Old 28th June 2019, 04:48 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
It seems that Ziggurat and theprestige are among that small group of people whose criteria for a credible accusation of rape requires....

1. An immediate report to the Police
2. A video and/or eyewitness to the rape
3. A positive sexual assault kit
4. DNA evidence
5. The alleged victim must be able to recount, without error or omission, the exact place and time of the alleged rape
6. The alleged victim must be able to recount, without error or omissions, every minute, excruciating detail of the rape.

If any of the above is not present, the victim is making it up

With the standards Ziggurat and theprestige are asking, Bill Cosby, Harvey Winestain and Rolf Harris would never have been brought to Justice.
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Old 28th June 2019, 05:19 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
The press isn't 'dropping this story' at all. It's being covered quite extensively. FOX is downplaying it and FOX's Tucker Carlson is basically calling Carroll a liar.
The conservative New York Post, whose former editor and current adviser Col Allan is a Trump friend and supporter, ordered the story pulled and it just disappeared. But other media outlets are definitely giving it a lot of attention.
As they should. I believe her.
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Old 28th June 2019, 05:21 AM   #89
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The incident with Trump is being used to promote sales of the book. Okay but why does it follow that means it's untrue? It's her life, her story. Let her promote what she wants to promote.
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Old 28th June 2019, 05:27 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
The incident with Trump is being used to promote sales of the book. Okay but why does it follow that means it's untrue? It's her life, her story. Let her promote what she wants to promote.
Publishers promote autobiography with bold claim that it contains autobiographical material.

Water remains wet, Trump continues b.s.-ing.
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Old 28th June 2019, 05:30 AM   #91
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Within the last few months, we had an all-day seminar or the problems attendant to sex crimes.
Among these we might list the 6-point criteria listed by Smartcooky.... Every one of these is problematic in actual practice.
Very often no report is made as the victim goes through a period of adjustment to the trauma. With men, the median age for reporting child sex abuse is 30 years....

Seldom is there any visual evidence or any witnesses.

Not only does the victim often not go to the hospital, even when she does and a “rape kit” is generated... There is a sorry history of mishandling this evidence by police.

Often, the first instinct is to go home and bathe thoroughly.... DNA evidence is lost.

Due to trauma, the victim’s ability to recount the incident accurately is severely compromised. PTSD symptoms are common. Recollection of the time and place, or of the incident itself, is often faulty.

I’ve been in the business long enough to recall the horrid way that rape victims were treated in the past... The general snarky comment being... “Oh, another failure to pay...”

Unless the victim had been severely beaten or suffered other severe trauma, rape allegations were seldom given any credence.
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Old 28th June 2019, 05:42 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Begging the question.

You can't have a pattern of behavior without documented instances of that behavior.

The only documented pattern of behavior we have so far is the pattern of Trump haters to make unsubstantiated allegations.
Sure, documented instances: well over 20 women alleging Trump’s abuses. And Stormy Daniels, Karen McDougal, etc., all lent weight by his “Access Hollywood” boasting.

I wasn’t aware they were each and every one “Trump haters,” but even if they were, it would not negate their individual stories nor their collective number indicating a behavioral pattern.
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Old 28th June 2019, 05:52 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
The incident with Trump is being used to promote sales of the book. Okay but why does it follow that means it's untrue? It's her life, her story. Let her promote what she wants to promote.

Does it follow that it's untrue? Of course not. Does it follow that there it is reason to doubt? Of course. Surely you understand that, don't you?

It provides a motivation to lie. She will make money off of making that allegation. She will be wealthier than she is now because she made that allegation. The vast majority of people in the United States would never have heard of her or her book had she not made the allegation. As a result of the allegation, a whole heck of a lot of people will have heard of her and her book, and some people will decide to buy the book. That's motive to lie.


Does that mean she's lying? Of course not, but it's a piece of background knowledge that has to weigh as a factor when trying to decide whether she's telling the truth. It's reason to at least be skeptical.
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Old 28th June 2019, 05:55 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Does it follow that it's untrue? Of course not. Does it follow that there it is reason to doubt? Of course. Surely you understand that, don't you?

It provides a motivation to lie. She will make money off of making that allegation. She will be wealthier than she is now because she made that allegation. The vast majority of people in the United States would never have heard of her or her book had she not made the allegation. As a result of the allegation, a whole heck of a lot of people will have heard of her and her book, and some people will decide to buy the book. That's motive to lie.


Does that mean she's lying? Of course not, but it's a piece of background knowledge that has to weigh as a factor when trying to decide whether she's telling the truth. It's reason to at least be skeptical.
She wasn't promoting a book when she told her two friends about the incident just after it happened.

Unless they are also lying, of course. Maybe they'll get a cut? I mean, that's skeptical thinking, innit?
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Old 28th June 2019, 06:05 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
Sure, documented instances: well over 20 women alleging Trump’s abuses. And Stormy Daniels, Karen McDougal, etc., all lent weight by his “Access Hollywood” boasting.
Not to mention boasting about getting away with voyeurism.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a7357866.html
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Old 28th June 2019, 06:32 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
You are being extremely naive if you really believe that.
Please demonstrate this issue was brought to the forefront as part of the book’s promotional campaign.
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Old 28th June 2019, 06:38 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I think that would be considered consummated rape.
Yeah, but at least he wasn’t sniffing her hair in front of people!*



*Please be assured I am not offering a whataboutism but rather injecting the discussion with a dose of levity.
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Old 28th June 2019, 06:44 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yeah, that totally makes sense. The press is dropping this story because they want to protect Trump.
That’s right, “the press” (ooga booga) should just toss aside a credible rape accusation about the man who’s currently...let me check my notes...president of the United States.

To paraphrase TBD (R.I.P.), leave Donald alone!
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Old 28th June 2019, 06:54 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
That’s right, “the press” (ooga booga) should just toss aside a credible rape accusation about the man who’s currently...let me check my notes...president of the United States.

To paraphrase TBD (R.I.P.), leave Donald alone!
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Old 28th June 2019, 07:12 AM   #100
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adjective

1 capable of being believed; believable
2 worthy of belief or confidence; trustworthy


”To the pain.” - Westley
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Old 28th June 2019, 07:17 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
adjective

1 capable of being believed; believable
2 worthy of belief or confidence; trustworthy


”To the pain.” - Westley
Do you really think Vizzini's problem was that he didn't know the dictionary definition?
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Old 28th June 2019, 07:24 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
She wasn't promoting a book when she told her two friends about the incident just after it happened.

Unless they are also lying, of course. Maybe they'll get a cut? I mean, that's skeptical thinking, innit?
Yeah, in order to continue on this, Trumpets have to go to the level of birther conspiracy. Remember how the birth announcement in the Honolulu newspaper was not sufficient, and was all part of a massive ploy by Obama's mother?

It's that all over again.

Birthers will birther.
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Old 28th June 2019, 07:45 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Do you really think Vizzini's problem was that he didn't know the dictionary definition?
Foolish me, citing an authoritative reference.

Why don’t you share with us what you really think?
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Old 28th June 2019, 08:05 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Do you really think Vizzini's problem was that he didn't know the dictionary definition?
Vizzini? No. Zigg? Likely yes.
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Old 29th June 2019, 12:50 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
Please demonstrate this issue was brought to the forefront as part of the book’s promotional campaign.
https://www.thecut.com/2019/06/donal...deous-men.html
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Old 29th June 2019, 05:10 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yeah, that totally makes sense. The press is dropping this story because they want to protect Trump.
No, its not because they want to "protect Trump" its because they have seen how many of these previous allegations come up, and they have seen how none of them ever seem to stick to "Teflon Donald", and they understand that his base, like you, just handwave it away as if nothing happened.

The Press appear to have "Trump Rape Allegation Fatigue"
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Old 29th June 2019, 08:56 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
A book excerpt in “The Cut” (whatever that is) is not anything more than a book excerpt. There’s no way to tell by way of your link if the excerpt was part of a promotional campaign (as in, highlighted in a press release and other parts of a press pack generated by the publisher) or selected for publication by the website’s editor(s).
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Old 30th June 2019, 12:05 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yeah, that totally makes sense. The press is dropping this story because they want to protect Trump.
A bit weak. Come on, you can do better!

What's the real reason the press is 'dropping this story'? (except they aren't)

Here are a few ideas to get you started:-

- Soros and Pelosi paid them to drop it, so they could accuse Trump of trying to kill the story.

- The story is fake news, and the real press (Fox and NY Post) pulled it when they found out.

- She's not their type. And anyway it was legitimate rape.

- Look, over there!
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Old 30th June 2019, 12:07 AM   #109
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Oh Puhhleeaz.

The only reason anyone on this thread has ever heard of this book is because it says she was raped by Donald Trump. If it had been a book about 20 awful men that she had encountered in her life, it wouldn't rate a review at Huffington Post, much less multiple interviews on all the major new outlets (except one). So, the idea that she isn't using that story for the publicity is just bizarre. Of course she is. That doesn't mean the story isn't true, but it does mean that there's a reason for making up the story.


I've been thinking about her two friends and their contemporaneous accounts. It seems to me there are really only two realistic possibilities. Either she is telling the truth, or she is prone to bizarre flights of fancy. Now, I've met people who are prone to bizarre flights of fancy.There are strange people who live Walter Mittyesque fantasy lives, and even share some of their adventures with their friends. A friend of mine died tragically young and at his funeral I mentioned to another friend, who knew him better than I did, that he had told me a story about encountering Claude Lemieux when they were both high school hockey players. The man I was talking to said, "You believed the Claude Lemieux story?!?" Apparently he was prone to all sorts of flights of fancy, and regularly regaled his friends with stories of encounters with famous people.


So, is E. Jean Carroll that sort? The people who know her well could answer that. The people I've known who make up Very Interesting tales of their lives rarely make up just one. If she made up a story about being raped by Donald Trump and shared it with two friends, either she's telling the truth, or her friends and acquaintances would know that she has a habit of stretching the truth.


Of course, it's possible that reporters have asked around and discovered that is, in fact, the case., and that's why this story hasn't gotten much traction.


As for the story itself, there are just a couple of items that are really difficult for me to believe. It isn't at all hard to believe for me that Donald Trump would hit on a woman he didn't know, but it's a little bit hard for me to believe he would hit on a 52 year old woman that he didn't know. Yeah, some people are well preserved, but it's a stretch.


And then there's the empty lingerie department at Bergdorf's. Not impossible, but a little odd.

On balance, though, I would have to say her story is believable, and I would tend to believe it, unless those who know her were to say she makes up stuff about celebrity encounters all the time.

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Old 30th June 2019, 12:34 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
A book excerpt in “The Cut” (whatever that is) is not anything more than a book excerpt. There’s no way to tell by way of your link if the excerpt was part of a promotional campaign (as in, highlighted in a press release and other parts of a press pack generated by the publisher) or selected for publication by the website’s editor(s).
Publishing excerpts, doing interviews, posing for pics . . . These are all are part of promoting a book. It’s quite obvious that this story came out as part of the promotion for her new book. Denying or downplaying this doesn’t help.

What I would say is that whether or not it’s a part of the promotion is inconsequential to the veracity of her allegation.
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Old 30th June 2019, 04:29 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
A book excerpt in “The Cut” (whatever that is) is not anything more than a book excerpt. There’s no way to tell by way of your link if the excerpt was part of a promotional campaign (as in, highlighted in a press release and other parts of a press pack generated by the publisher) or selected for publication by the website’s editor(s).
I give up.
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Old 30th June 2019, 04:37 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Publishing excerpts, doing interviews, posing for pics . . . These are all are part of promoting a book. It’s quite obvious that this story came out as part of the promotion for her new book. Denying or downplaying this doesn’t help.
Yes. I can't believe that this is even being argued, given how obvious it is.

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What I would say is that whether or not it’s a part of the promotion is inconsequential to the veracity of her allegation.
Also true, but "veracity" is a hard thing to know for anyone who wasn't actually there in this case.
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Old 30th June 2019, 04:47 AM   #113
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BTW, the book isn't even released yet. It goes on sale tomorrow.

The only way the press would have excerpts from the book is if the publisher had given them to the media as part of the advanced promotional phase before the book is even released.
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Old 30th June 2019, 02:18 PM   #114
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Publishers routinely send copies of books pre-release to reviewers or news outlets.
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One of the key elements of a professional book marketing and publicity campaign is the advance review copy (ARC)—also known as a galley—usually produced and distributed three to six months before the final book goes on sale. Link
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Old 30th June 2019, 04:55 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Publishers routinely send copies of books pre-release to reviewers or news outlets.
Yes, thank you. It is part of a publicity and marketing campaign. The excerpt published by New York magazine was for that purpose.
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Old 30th June 2019, 07:22 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Publishing excerpts, doing interviews, posing for pics . . . These are all are part of promoting a book. It’s quite obvious that this story came out as part of the promotion for her new book.
Would you, and others, please stop making a claim that you are not supporting?

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Denying or downplaying this doesn’t help.
”Help?”

The claim, essentially, is that E. Jean Carroll’s assertion of a sexual assault by Donald Trump should be suspect because it’s part of a book she’s selling. Except, the Trump mention is a very small passage in a full-length book (by a well-known, long-standing media figure), a passage that was picked up and featured by a magazine due to the newsworthiness of the alleged incident’s perpetrator. Once that happened it naturally attracted the attention of other media sites who sought out the author for their own interest in attracting eyeballs.

The Trump angle (mixed metaphor alert!) is a promotional dead end. Buying the book isn’t going to provide the reader access to more juicy Trump (ew) details.

With such minimal promotional value, it’s highly unlikely the publisher is going to be using the encounter to help spur sales. Especially with the encounter, once again, fully revealed by various others, therefore making it unnecessary to buy the book.

I could be wrong, but I’d need to see evidence more persuasive than, oh, c’mon, it’s so obvious!
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Old 30th June 2019, 07:37 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
BTW, the book isn't even released yet. It goes on sale tomorrow.

The only way the press would have excerpts from the book is if the publisher had given them to the media as part of the advanced promotional phase before the book is even released.
You’re assuming excerpts were released rather than complete copies, from which a portion of portions were excerpted by one or more of its recipients.
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Old 1st July 2019, 10:56 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
The Trump angle (mixed metaphor alert!) is a promotional dead end. Buying the book isn’t going to provide the reader access to more juicy Trump (ew) details.

With such minimal promotional value, it’s highly unlikely the publisher is going to be using the encounter to help spur sales. Especially with the encounter, once again, fully revealed by various others, therefore making it unnecessary to buy the book.
People don't need to buy the book to find out those details in order for it to work as a promotional strategy. Much of advertising consists of simply getting people to know your product even exists. So if you get people to hear about the book based on the Trump allegations, some fraction of them may still buy the book based on its other contents when they wouldn't before just because they didn't hear about it at all.

How many people in this thread even heard about the book independently of this Trump angle? I know I didn't.
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Old 1st July 2019, 11:07 AM   #119
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I hadn't even heard of this woman until her CNN interview blew up. This is the same credibility arc Dr Lee of the Yale group has to contend with.
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Old 1st July 2019, 11:32 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I hadn't even heard of this woman until her CNN interview blew up. This is the same credibility arc Dr Lee of the Yale group has to contend with.
How many of the other 2 dozen or so women had you heard of before their claims against Trump became public? Are they not believable because you hadn't heard of them, or because they are saying something you don't want to hear about your guy?
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