ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags cit , lloyde england , pentagon

Reply
Old 30th June 2019, 10:27 PM   #1401
Axxman300
Illuminator
 
Axxman300's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 3,987
I wonder if he knows how big Arlington is...
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha
Axxman300 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2019, 11:11 PM   #1402
Cosmic Yak
Master Poster
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 2,991
Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Surely you can be sceptical without being obtuse, obnoxious and attributing false statements to someone who is sceptical about different things from you? What a toxic environment a sceptics forum is. Are there rules here about the subjects one is permitted to be sceptical about?

When did I ever suggest that any "bodies were moved"? I NEVER said any such thing.

The 2 photographs of dead victims fraudulently claimed to have been "dead passengers of AA77 still strapped in their airplane seats in the Pentagon" were taken on site during the rescue process at the Twin Towers in New York among the identifiable wreckage of floor trusses and aluminium sheets. This is what I wrote.
Oh I see. The bodies were left in New York, but the photos were taken there and then used to show there were bodies in the Pentagon. Is that right?
My apologies for misreading your post.
It still doesn't make any sense.
1. Why do this? Why not simply take photos inside the Pentagon?
2. Did these photos make any difference to the overall narrative of what happened on that day? Are they more important than the FDR and radar evidence, the debris from the plane outside the Pentagon, etc.?
3. You have not provided any evidence of how you think this switch was made. Who did this, and how do you know? How is it that none of the relatives of the victims, none of the rescue personnel, none of the lawyers, none of the numerous other investigators, in fact, no-one but you (as far as I am aware) has come to this conclusion? How was this missed?
4. You still have not shown any analysis of the "identifiable wreckage" indicating its origin. Is there a reason for that?

Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
But your bigoted determination to ridicule anybody who has an opinion or even a fact outside your own belief sphere, motivates you to precipitately misconstrue other's words before putting comprehension into gear.
Personal attack noted. Doesn't help your case, though.

Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Perhaps you still do not understand the simple concept I already explained.
People died in the Twin Towers.
There was a long rescue effort which lasted many days.
During that time, photographs were taken of dead bodies found amongst the wreckage.

At some point, either by ignorance, accident or design, somebody claimed that two of these photographs were of dead passengers of AA77 inside the Pentagon.

These two photographs were subsequently misappropriated as "evidence" against Moussaoui.

In Australia, I never heard of Moussaoui at the time his trial was happening. Nor did I know anything about these photos back then.
You are still ignoring the eyewitness who saw them. Have you contacted him yet?

Here is the full list of the evidence presented against Moussaoui by the prosecution.
The photos represent a very small part of this total. Moreover, as the defence team had time to examine this evidence, how do you account for the fact that they apparently did not notice the "obvious" misattribution of these photos?
You have yet to specify the qualifications and relevant professional experience that has led you to make this conclusion. Is there a reason for that?
Finally, as Moussaoui is still alive, have you contacted him to tell him you can secure his release? I'm sure he'll be overjoyed.
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 02:06 AM   #1403
Sceptic-PK
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,783
Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Surely you can be sceptical without being obtuse, obnoxious and attributing false statements to someone who is sceptical about different things from you? What a toxic environment a sceptics forum is. Are there rules here about the subjects one is permitted to be sceptical about?
You're not skeptical, you're in denial. It's not 2004 anymore. Skepticism is doubting any claim until a requisite amount of evidence is available in order to support that claim. Skepticism is not opposing anything The Man says simply because it's The Man; skepticism has no partisanship. The only 911 "skeptics" in 2019 are all deniers who have ignored years of evidence (not to mention many other realities).

It is beyond stupid that some people think the government can claim a commercial jet crashed if it didn't really- you don't think American Airlines never noticed they had an extra plane that was supposed to be missing? These kinds of disconnects from reality are only possible by people with no or little life experience.

Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
When did I ever suggest that any "bodies were moved"? I NEVER said any such thing.

The 2 photographs of dead victims fraudulently claimed to have been "dead passengers of AA77 still strapped in their airplane seats in the Pentagon" were taken on site during the rescue process at the Twin Towers in New York among the identifiable wreckage of floor trusses and aluminium sheets. This is what I wrote.
He was giving you the benefit of the doubt because all non-terrorist passengers who were on 77 as per the manifest were matched via DNA at the scene. So, in order for your stupid notions to have merit the poor souls' DNA would have needed to be transported to the Pentagon crash site (and then their name added to the manifest by Government Magic but there's nothing those guys can't do in CT Land).

Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
But your bigoted determination to ridicule anybody who has an opinion or even a fact outside your own belief sphere, motivates you to precipitately misconstrue other's words before putting comprehension into gear.
Hahaha. I do enjoy CTs butchering the English language when trying to sound intelligent. Writing well is a skill and a part of that is constructing sentences that read properly rather than reeking of try-hard word-salad.

Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
In Australia, I never heard of Moussaoui at the time his trial was happening. Nor did I know anything about these photos back then.
I bet you had no idea who OBL was in 2001 and at the time of the attacks were barely out of kindergarten.
Sceptic-PK is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 02:36 AM   #1404
rubygray
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 104
WTC FLOOR TRUSS COMPONENTS

https://www.flickr.com/photos/148165...7709354128792/
rubygray is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 02:39 AM   #1405
rubygray
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 104
WTC FLOOR CONSTRUCTION

https://www.flickr.com/photos/148165...7709354128792/
rubygray is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 02:47 AM   #1406
rubygray
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 104
VICTIM 1 AT WTC

https://www.flickr.com/photos/148165...7709354128792/

Last edited by rubygray; 1st July 2019 at 02:48 AM.
rubygray is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 03:05 AM   #1407
rubygray
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 104
VICTIMS 1 2 3 AT WTC

https://www.flickr.com/photos/148165...7709354128792/

These 3 victims are displayed among the ruins of floor trusses, floor pans, concrete, drywall, ducting, cladding, cables, etc, which are all components of the distinctive flooring system used in the construction of both World Trade Centre towers. Their faces, bodies and clothes are still recognisable. They seem barely injured.

Two other photos were used as exhibits alongside these, but those remains were almost totally consumed by fire. They were unrecognisable. They had no clothes, and were not "strapped into" any seats. There is nothing to indicate that they were anything but Pentagon workers. They are placed on blue body bags or plastic sheeting, and the steel-reinforced concrete support columns from the Pentagon are visible in the photos.

These photos came from two different locations, but were claimed to have all come from the Pentagon.

The WTC photos are the source of the urban myth that there were "AA77 passengers still strapped into their seats found inside the Pentagon".
rubygray is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 03:09 AM   #1408
rubygray
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 104
Originally Posted by Sceptic-PK View Post
He was giving you the benefit of the doubt because all non-terrorist passengers who were on 77 as per the manifest were matched via DNA at the scene. So, in order for your stupid notions to have merit the poor souls' DNA would have needed to be transported to the Pentagon crash site (and then their name added to the manifest by Government Magic but there's nothing those guys can't do in CT Land).
What in the world does this demented nonsense have to do with anything??

Originally Posted by Sceptic-PK View Post
I bet you had no idea who OBL was in 2001 and at the time of the attacks were barely out of kindergarten.
I wish.
rubygray is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 03:20 AM   #1409
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 22,303
What 'demented nonsense'?
Remains of the passengers from 77 were recovered from the Pentagon.
If the aircraft didn't crash in to the building how did they get there?
Were they all murdered somewhere else and transported to the scene?
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 04:12 AM   #1410
Sceptic-PK
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,783
Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
What in the world does this demented nonsense have to do with anything??
In which ways would you like me to dumb it down to you? Every victim who perished on flight 77 left enough material to be identified via DNA. This includes the poor people shown in the photos. Since you claim these photos are actually from New York, the poster queried how the victims' DNA turned up in the Pentagon. I suggested it was Government Magic; it's the substance regularly used by CTs to fill in the massive, massive gaps in their narratives.

Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
I wish.
Jesus, that's really embarrassing.
Sceptic-PK is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 04:35 AM   #1411
Cosmic Yak
Master Poster
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 2,991
Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
https://www.flickr.com/photos/148165...7709354128792/

These 3 victims are displayed among the ruins of floor trusses, floor pans, concrete, drywall, ducting, cladding, cables, etc, which are all components of the distinctive flooring system used in the construction of both World Trade Centre towers.
Which of the listed building components are you saying were not part of the Pentagon? Are you claiming there were no cables there? No concrete? Show your working.

Simply showing pictures is not enough, I'm afraid. Have you measured the labelled parts, and compared them with those used in the WTC, as well as those used in the Pentagon, to prove your case? Show your working.
This truly is a Daily Mail level of research.
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 08:17 AM   #1412
SpitfireIX
Illuminator
 
SpitfireIX's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA
Posts: 4,751
Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
https://www.flickr.com/photos/148165...7709354128792/

These 3 victims are displayed among the ruins of floor trusses, floor pans, concrete, drywall, ducting, cladding, cables, etc, which are all components of the distinctive flooring system used in the construction of both World Trade Centre towers. Their faces, bodies and clothes are still recognisable. They seem barely injured.

The truss top chords were structural steel angles, as illustrated here. The debris labeled "truss top chord" in your photo is clearly not an angle, and therefore your entire argument is destroyed. We'll await your acknowledgement of this fact and retraction of your clearly erroneous claim.
__________________
Handy responses to conspiracy theorists' claims:
1) "I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." --Charles Babbage
2) "This isn't right. This isn't even wrong." --Wolfgang Pauli
3) "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." --Inigo Montoya
SpitfireIX is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 08:21 AM   #1413
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 16,678
The "floor components" in those trial exhibit photos are not in their as-built state, and I have serious trouble identifying them specifically as WTC1/2 floor trusses or concrete decking. I have looked at the WTC flooring details often and long, for other purposes. That which ruby labels "knuckled" are bent lengths of round steel, that which he labels "bridging truss bottom chord" is some sort of I-shaped steel, and that which he labels "top chord" is merely round steel.

It is not entirely unusual for buildings to have various sorts of steel rebar, trusses, rods and the like.

But let's suppose for a minute the photos were from the WTC after all. Then what? Someone mistook or mislabeled photos.

The case against Moussaoui does not depend on those photos. The case against AQ does not depend on those photos. The case for an AA77 crash at the Pentagon does not depend on those photos. There exist other photos clearly from the Pentagon with plane wreckage, and again, human remains have been pulled from the Pentagon and matched to the AA77 passengers. Plus all the other evidence, including video footage, show AA77 crashed into the Pentagon.

So supposing the photos were from the WTC, what does that prove other than someone mixed up photos?
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 08:26 AM   #1414
beachnut
Penultimate Amazing
 
beachnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 25,266
Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
https://www.flickr.com/photos/148165...7709354128792/

These 3 victims are displayed among the ruins of floor trusses, floor pans, concrete, drywall, ducting, cladding, cables, etc, which are all components of the distinctive flooring system used in the construction of both World Trade Centre towers. Their faces, bodies and clothes are still recognisable. They seem barely injured.

Two other photos were used as exhibits alongside these, but those remains were almost totally consumed by fire. They were unrecognisable. They had no clothes, and were not "strapped into" any seats. There is nothing to indicate that they were anything but Pentagon workers. They are placed on blue body bags or plastic sheeting, and the steel-reinforced concrete support columns from the Pentagon are visible in the photos.

These photos came from two different locations, but were claimed to have all come from the Pentagon.

The WTC photos are the source of the urban myth that there were "AA77 passengers still strapped into their seats found inside the Pentagon".
Does not support your no Flight 77 delusion.

If you did science, you could solve 77 hit the Pentagon with the FDR, Radar, and DNA.

You deny science and make up lies.

If you could do physics, you would not post the idiotic flight path for your fantasy. How many Gs are required for your flight path? Right, you can't do the science.
__________________
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen" - Albert Einstein
"... education as the means of developing our greatest abilities" - JFK
https://folding.stanford.edu/ fold with your computer - join team 13232

Last edited by beachnut; 1st July 2019 at 08:36 AM.
beachnut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 08:42 AM   #1415
Gamolon
Master Poster
 
Gamolon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,160
Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
rubygray,

You do realize that the chords of the floor trusses in the tower were made up of steel angles back to back right? With the steel rod/web between them?

How does what you call out as the "top chord" in the picture above match two back to back steel angles? That looks like a piece of rebar.

Edit: I see Spitfire beat me to it...
Gamolon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2019, 03:25 AM   #1416
rubygray
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 104
Get it right would you for once

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
The "floor components" in those trial exhibit photos are not in their as-built state, and I have serious trouble identifying them specifically as WTC1/2 floor trusses or concrete decking. I have looked at the WTC flooring details often and long, for other purposes. That which ruby labels "knuckled" are bent lengths of round steel, that which he labels "bridging truss bottom chord" is some sort of I-shaped steel, and that which he labels "top chord" is merely round steel.

It is not entirely unusual for buildings to have various sorts of steel rebar, trusses, rods and the like.

But let's suppose for a minute the photos were from the WTC after all. Then what? Someone mistook or mislabeled photos.

The case against Moussaoui does not depend on those photos. The case against AQ does not depend on those photos. The case for an AA77 crash at the Pentagon does not depend on those photos. There exist other photos clearly from the Pentagon with plane wreckage, and again, human remains have been pulled from the Pentagon and matched to the AA77 passengers. Plus all the other evidence, including video footage, show AA77 crashed into the Pentagon.

So supposing the photos were from the WTC, what does that prove other than someone mixed up photos?
I did not "label the steel knuckled".

I pointed out the same "KNUCKLE" as is seen in the plan. That is what those double rounded pieces of steel are called. KNUCKLES. As you would know had you actually studied the diagrams.

The same with all the other identified elements of the WTC floor trusses in the photos.
Yes, the "BOTTOM CHORD" as seen in the photos, is exactly as depicted in the diagrams. etc etc etc.

All this proves is that I was correct in what I wrote - that these two photos were taken in the rubble of the towers, and these victims are most certainly NOT "AA77 passengers still strapped in their seats". No photos of this exist. That is one of the lies promoted by the Official Theory.

Would it kill you to admit this fact?
rubygray is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2019, 03:27 AM   #1417
rubygray
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 104
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Which of the listed building components are you saying were not part of the Pentagon? Are you claiming there were no cables there? No concrete? Show your working.

Simply showing pictures is not enough, I'm afraid. Have you measured the labelled parts, and compared them with those used in the WTC, as well as those used in the Pentagon, to prove your case? Show your working.
This truly is a Daily Mail level of research.
Whereas you have done no research whatsoever.

I DO have pictures to support what I wrote.

You, on the other hand, are simply smarting from having your fond delusion of "photos of A77 passengers still strapped in their seats" demolished.
rubygray is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2019, 03:34 AM   #1418
rubygray
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 104
Originally Posted by Sceptic-PK View Post
In which ways would you like me to dumb it down to you? Every victim who perished on flight 77 left enough material to be identified via DNA. This includes the poor people shown in the photos. Since you claim these photos are actually from New York, the poster queried how the victims' DNA turned up in the Pentagon. I suggested it was Government Magic; it's the substance regularly used by CTs to fill in the massive, massive gaps in their narratives.
Jesus, that's really embarrassing.
What is REALLY embarrassing, is that you could be presented with the photographic evidence that these 3 victims were inside the Twin Towers when they died, NOT in the Pentagon NOR in AA77 ... and yet you still imagine that the DNA of THESE 3 PEOPLE is what identified them as AA77 passengers.

The faces of two of these people can still be made out in the original photos. Their families and friends would be easily able to identify them. The guy lying on his side is not even burned nor apparently injured. You can still see his blue and white checked shirt. They look almost as though they fell asleep at their desks, and were slightly singed later by fires. In fact, I could hope this is how they died. They are certainly not the victims of a plane which was shredded by masonry walls and concrete columns at 550 mph.

There is no chain of custody proving that the DNA of passengers came directly from the Pentagon.

Fox ... henhouse ...
rubygray is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2019, 03:43 AM   #1419
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 29,674
Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
I did not "label the steel knuckled".

I pointed out the same "KNUCKLE" as is seen in the plan. That is what those double rounded pieces of steel are called. KNUCKLES. As you would know had you actually studied the diagrams.

The same with all the other identified elements of the WTC floor trusses in the photos.
Yes, the "BOTTOM CHORD" as seen in the photos, is exactly as depicted in the diagrams. etc etc etc.

All this proves is that I was correct in what I wrote - that these two photos were taken in the rubble of the towers, and these victims are most certainly NOT "AA77 passengers still strapped in their seats". No photos of this exist. That is one of the lies promoted by the Official Theory.

Would it kill you to admit this fact?
Let's see what your syllogism actually is here.

P1: The pictures claimed to be of AA77 passengers include debris similar in appearance to structural elements of the WTC towers.
P2: ?????

C: Therefore, the pictures were in fact taken at the WTC towers.

Would you care to fill in P2?

If you give this a moment's thought, you'll realise that you have to prove, not that these objects resemble structures in the WTC, but that they do not resemble any possible structures that might have been seen in the Pentagon. Your "proof" is invalid unless and until you do that.

Please supply pictures of all the structural elements that might be expected to be found in the Pentagon, and demonstrate how they differ from what is seen in the pictures you claim are not of victims strapped into their seats in the Pentagon. If you can do that, then you might have an argument worth listening to.

Would that kill you?

Dave
__________________
Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel.

- Myriad
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2019, 04:03 AM   #1420
Cosmic Yak
Master Poster
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 2,991
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
It still doesn't make any sense.
1. Why do this? Why not simply take photos inside the Pentagon?
2. Did these photos make any difference to the overall narrative of what happened on that day? Are they more important than the FDR and radar evidence, the debris from the plane outside the Pentagon, etc.?
3. You have not provided any evidence of how you think this switch was made. Who did this, and how do you know? How is it that none of the relatives of the victims, none of the rescue personnel, none of the lawyers, none of the numerous other investigators, in fact, no-one but you (as far as I am aware) has come to this conclusion? How was this missed?
4. You still have not shown any analysis of the "identifiable wreckage" indicating its origin. Is there a reason for that?


You are still ignoring the eyewitness who saw them. Have you contacted him yet?

Here is the full list of the evidence presented against Moussaoui by the prosecution.
The photos represent a very small part of this total. Moreover, as the defence team had time to examine this evidence, how do you account for the fact that they apparently did not notice the "obvious" misattribution of these photos?
You have yet to specify the qualifications and relevant professional experience that has led you to make this conclusion. Is there a reason for that?
Finally, as Moussaoui is still alive, have you contacted him to tell him you can secure his release? I'm sure he'll be overjoyed.
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Which of the listed building components are you saying were not part of the Pentagon? Are you claiming there were no cables there? No concrete? Show your working.

Simply showing pictures is not enough, I'm afraid. Have you measured the labelled parts, and compared them with those used in the WTC, as well as those used in the Pentagon, to prove your case? Show your working.
This truly is a Daily Mail level of research.
Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Whereas you have done no research whatsoever.

I DO have pictures to support what I wrote.

You, on the other hand, are simply smarting from having your fond delusion of "photos of A77 passengers still strapped in their seats" demolished.
Wow. Chess with pigeons.

For at least the third time: your unsupported assertion will not count as evidence, no matter how many times you make it.
Please respond to my points above.
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2019, 04:14 AM   #1421
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 22,303
Originally Posted by rubygray View Post


There is no chain of custody proving that the DNA of passengers came directly from the Pentagon.

Fox ... henhouse ...
So, where did it come from?
Were all the passengers and crew murdered elsewhere and their bodies placed in the Pentagon?
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2019, 05:46 AM   #1422
Gamolon
Master Poster
 
Gamolon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,160
Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
The same with all the other identified elements of the WTC floor trusses in the photos.
Are you saying that what the component you labeled as "top chord" in the image below and in the red box...


...matches the components making up the top chord in the red box in the image below?


You labled what looks like rebar as "top chord" in the first image. It's definately not two steel angles back to back or even one angle.

The radius of the component you labeled as "knuckle" is too big to be a "knuckle" ofrmed by the web portion of the truss coming up between the two angles of the top chord. It looks like conduit or cabling.
Gamolon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2019, 05:49 AM   #1423
Gamolon
Master Poster
 
Gamolon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,160
Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Yes, the "BOTTOM CHORD" as seen in the photos, is exactly as depicted in the diagrams. etc etc etc.
It is? You see two steel angles back to back sandwiching the steel round bar that made up the truss web?

Show me where you see a steel angle.
Gamolon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2019, 05:54 AM   #1424
bknight
Graduate Poster
 
bknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 1,795
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
So, where did it come from?
Were all the passengers and crew murdered elsewhere and their bodies placed in the Pentagon?
Obviously Area 51 where the plane has been stored and the passengers/crew/hijackers are housed until death.
bknight is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2019, 06:16 AM   #1425
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 29,674
Originally Posted by Gamolon View Post
It is? You see two steel angles back to back sandwiching the steel round bar that made up the truss web?

Show me where you see a steel angle.
Guys, you're getting your debunking as ass-backwards as rubygray is getting her argument.

The important claim here is that these photographs cannot have been taken at the Pentagon. The whole "these look like bits of the WTC therefore they are" argument is intended to establish this by arguing they were taken somewhere else. In fact, though, it's completely irrelevant whether anything in the photo looks like anything at the WTC. What matters is whether the contents of the photos can or cannot possibly be parts of the structure of the Pentagon. Unless and until rubygray presents evidence that they cannot, then any resemblance between objects in the photo and objects at the WTC is unimportant, because her claim has not been supported.

The argument "A looks like B, therefore it cannot be C" is logically nonsensical, and that's all that's being offered here.

Dave
__________________
Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel.

- Myriad
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2019, 12:31 PM   #1426
CORed
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central City, Colorado, USA
Posts: 9,010
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Guys, you're getting your debunking as ass-backwards as rubygray is getting her argument.

The important claim here is that these photographs cannot have been taken at the Pentagon. The whole "these look like bits of the WTC therefore they are" argument is intended to establish this by arguing they were taken somewhere else. In fact, though, it's completely irrelevant whether anything in the photo looks like anything at the WTC. What matters is whether the contents of the photos can or cannot possibly be parts of the structure of the Pentagon. Unless and until rubygray presents evidence that they cannot, then any resemblance between objects in the photo and objects at the WTC is unimportant, because her claim has not been supported.

The argument "A looks like B, therefore it cannot be C" is logically nonsensical, and that's all that's being offered here.

Dave
Well, it's pretty clear that logic is not rubygray's strong suit. The entire narrative is so bizarre that it makes no sense even in the context that the Pentagon impact was a false flag. In order to support the claim by the cab driver that the pole impacted the cab in a different location than is commonly believed, rubygray would have us believe that the government fabricated a canon to fire a light pole through the cab, then, during the post-crash chaos, moved the cab to a different location, supervised by the Secretary of Defense himself. This story is far beyond the usual conspiracy-theorist anomaly hunting. It is more in the realm of the delusional thinking of someone with paranoid schizophrenia or some other severe psychosis.

The notion that the photos of the bodies were taken at the WTC rather than the Pentagon, based on nothing other than a supposed resemblance of some of the debris from the Pentagon to that from the WTC, is rather tame, if equally nonsensical.
CORed is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2019, 01:11 PM   #1427
beachnut
Penultimate Amazing
 
beachnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 25,266
Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
I did not "label the steel knuckled".

I pointed out the same "KNUCKLE" as is seen in the plan. That is what those double rounded pieces of steel are called. KNUCKLES. As you would know had you actually studied the diagrams.

The same with all the other identified elements of the WTC floor trusses in the photos.
Yes, the "BOTTOM CHORD" as seen in the photos, is exactly as depicted in the diagrams. etc etc etc.

All this proves is that I was correct in what I wrote - that these two photos were taken in the rubble of the towers, and these victims are most certainly NOT "AA77 passengers still strapped in their seats". No photos of this exist. That is one of the lies promoted by the Official Theory.

Would it kill you to admit this fact?
77 impacted the Pentagon, to say otherwise is a despicable lie. Would it kill you to stop spreading the lie about 77.

There is no official theory, the bodies are not theories. How did they transport burnt bodies from the WTC to the first floor of the Pentagon. Bodies on the floor of the Pentagon, and you think they are on the Floor (oops, there is no floor left at the WTC) of the WTC tower?

The fact is the photos of body parts, and bodies were labeled like this, not passengers in seats from 77; Dead people due to the impact of 77. Where is that reading comprehension greatness you think you have.

Quote:
P200042 Photograph of a body part found inside the Pentagon after Flight 77 crashed into the building [Viewer discretion is advised]
Was this a Pentagon photo? It does not say it was a 77 passenger, could be.

Quote:
P200045 Photograph of a body found inside the Pentagon after Flight 77 crashed into the building [Viewer discretion is advised]
Official claimed to be a body, no claim it was a passenger still in their seat. Your comprehension skills are lacking.

Quote:
P200047 Photograph of bodies found inside the Pentagon after Flight 77 crashed into the building [Viewer discretion is advised]
No claim it was a 77 passengers. No proof it was not the Pentagon.

Quote:
P200048 Photograph of a body found inside the Pentagon after Flight 77 crashed into the building [Viewer discretion is advised]
The is no label saying these were 77 passengers.

http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notable...osecution.html

The strapped into their seats was a reporters interpretation of what a witness said. I think the witness said he found people still in their chairs, at their desks.

But all the passengers on 77 DNA, save the small kid, was found in the Pentagon along the final true course 77 impacted the Pentagon.

You did not prove any of the four photos are from the WTC. The concrete slab looks like a desk or partition wall broken.

At the WTC anyone on a tower floor on fire would be crushed beyond recognition, the same as the passengers on Flight 77. There could be an exception, and things do survive massive events.

You make up stuff as you go, and add opinions based on bias you have because you think we faked the attacks.

http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notable...n/P200022.html

These photos prove it was not an explosion at the WTC, it is the Jet Fuel Fireball, which can't do the damage done to the Pentagon. The mass of flight 77 moving at over 800 feet per second did the damage to the Pentagon. The jet fuel started the fires, which did the fire damage.

Where are your alive murderers? Did you make that up on your own? They retracted that story, but your reading comprehension must be blocked by your paranoid conspiracy filter.

Did you miss the labels of the photos? Reading Comprehension?
__________________
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen" - Albert Einstein
"... education as the means of developing our greatest abilities" - JFK
https://folding.stanford.edu/ fold with your computer - join team 13232
beachnut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2019, 03:35 PM   #1428
waypastvne
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 412
Originally Posted by rubygray View Post

I pointed out the same "KNUCKLE" as is seen in the plan. That is what those double rounded pieces of steel are called. KNUCKLES. As you would know had you actually studied the diagrams.
But you labeled that a bridging truss. Bridging trusses (transverse truss) don't have KNUCKLES. Only the main trusses had knuckles. As you would know had you actually studied the diagrams.
waypastvne is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2019, 06:49 PM   #1429
SpitfireIX
Illuminator
 
SpitfireIX's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA
Posts: 4,751
Originally Posted by Gamolon View Post
It is? You see two steel angles back to back sandwiching the steel round bar that made up the truss web?

Show me where you see a steel angle.

It's either an I-beam or a channel, but it's definitely not an angle.

So, Ruby, I renew my question, which you (unsurprisingly) ignored. Are you going to admit that the components you labeled as "top chord" and "bottom chord" in your pictures are not angles, and therefore can't be part of the WTC floor trusses, and thus your argument is destroyed?
__________________
Handy responses to conspiracy theorists' claims:
1) "I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." --Charles Babbage
2) "This isn't right. This isn't even wrong." --Wolfgang Pauli
3) "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." --Inigo Montoya
SpitfireIX is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd July 2019, 08:38 AM   #1430
bknight
Graduate Poster
 
bknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 1,795
Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
77 impacted the Pentagon, to say otherwise is a despicable lie. Would it kill you to stop spreading the lie about 77.

There is no official theory, the bodies are not theories. How did they transport burnt bodies from the WTC to the first floor of the Pentagon. Bodies on the floor of the Pentagon, and you think they are on the Floor (oops, there is no floor left at the WTC) of the WTC tower?

The fact is the photos of body parts, and bodies were labeled like this, not passengers in seats from 77; Dead people due to the impact of 77. Where is that reading comprehension greatness you think you have.


Was this a Pentagon photo? It does not say it was a 77 passenger, could be.


Official claimed to be a body, no claim it was a passenger still in their seat. Your comprehension skills are lacking.


No claim it was a 77 passengers. No proof it was not the Pentagon.


The is no label saying these were 77 passengers.

http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notable...osecution.html

The strapped into their seats was a reporters interpretation of what a witness said. I think the witness said he found people still in their chairs, at their desks.

But all the passengers on 77 DNA, save the small kid, was found in the Pentagon along the final true course 77 impacted the Pentagon.

You did not prove any of the four photos are from the WTC. The concrete slab looks like a desk or partition wall broken.

At the WTC anyone on a tower floor on fire would be crushed beyond recognition, the same as the passengers on Flight 77. There could be an exception, and things do survive massive events.

You make up stuff as you go, and add opinions based on bias you have because you think we faked the attacks.

http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notable...n/P200022.html

These photos prove it was not an explosion at the WTC, it is the Jet Fuel Fireball, which can't do the damage done to the Pentagon. The mass of flight 77 moving at over 800 feet per second did the damage to the Pentagon. The jet fuel started the fires, which did the fire damage.

Where are your alive murderers? Did you make that up on your own? They retracted that story, but your reading comprehension must be blocked by your paranoid conspiracy filter.

Did you miss the labels of the photos? Reading Comprehension?

I agree with that thought. Slipping into CT fantasy land is rather like jumping into a rabbit hole, once you get too far in, it is difficult to see the light and extract oneself.
bknight is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:13 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.