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Tags 9/11 truth movement , ae911truth

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Old 31st August 2019, 06:21 AM   #41
ozeco41
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
Because it is my understanding that, in order to show it, the simulation itself needs to somehow be able to prove that EVERY OTHER POSSIBLE SCENARIO (not restricted to just those scenarios considered by NIST) leads to a different outcome, and a single simulation (or even a number of them) is unable to do such thing.
Well said. Again. Maybe it will attract support if you say it.
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Old 1st September 2019, 09:29 AM   #42
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update

Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
HOT DAMN pgimeno- I think you're on to something here !
Doing some cursory investigation I uncovered much more evidence we should be considering. Turns out that our protagonist WTC7 was a chef at the infamous Russian Coffee house in NYC and was place under surveillance
last year in an FBI DEA & homeland security joint counterterrorism dragnet.
Undercover cameras were placed in the kitchen area captured several instances of the main suspect , mr.WTC7, playing with his balls on company time,and one video captured was leaked by a anonymous source close to the investigation.
https://external-preview.redd.it/9ms...t=mp4&1a87a2fb


http://www.jugglingworld.biz/more-ju...juggling-gifs/

Further investigations revealed mr. WTC7 was undergoing a sex change operation with hormone treatments to create larger mammary glands needed to prefect the final action of the performance seen in the undercover video. Mr.WTC7 fatal flaw was revealed during the NIST investigation that determined one of the five butcher knives Mr WTC7 selected was unbalanced which distorted the vertical spin axis causing the knife to miss his heart and land in his neck,severing his juggler vein.
https://www.ebaumsworld.com/videos/f...ling/85140567/

All of this new evidence proves conclusively that fire alone brought down the WTC7 tower straight down into it's footprint. [/sarc]

Update---

(LINK redacted due to national security concerns)
Update --- a leaked video of chef WTC7 surveillance tape secretly recorded the suspect juggler
minutes he switched to butcher knives...
https://www.reddit.com/r/gifs/commen...ind_of_baller/
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Old 2nd September 2019, 03:55 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
These are the events planned this September from AE911Truth.org.

- In the first week of September, AE911Truth will participate in releasing the draft report of the groundbreaking World Trade Center Building 7 Study by researchers at the University of Alaska Fairbanks (UAF)... The draft report will be published that same week at http://ine.uaf.edu/wtc7 — as well as at AE911Truth.org — and will be open for public comment for a two-month period ending November 1, 2019.

- Then it’s onward to our events in New York and Washington, D.C. On September 7, 2019, AE911Truth founder Richard Gage will speak at an event hosted by the Lawyers’ Committee for 9/11 Inquiry at the All Souls Church in New York City.

- Four days later, on September 11, 2019, AE911Truth will hold a livestreamed news conference at the National Press Club, featuring Franklin Square Fire Commissioners Christopher Gioia and Joseph Torregrossa as well as Bob and Helen McIlvaine (parents of 9/11 victim Bobby McIlvaine), Lawyers’ Committee for 9/11 Inquiry President David Meiswinkle, and Mr. Gage.

- After the news conference, we will head to Capitol Hill for meetings with several U.S. representatives and their staffs.

p.s. You can crush the Truth down to size of a seed but you can never extinguish it completely. It will always be there to blossom and grow again when it reaches a more wholesome soil replete with Truth, Wisdom and Knowledge.

But the Kali Yuga is upon us for now.
Every year around this time, it seems I get into arguments with conspiracy theorists that bring up AE911Truth, and how it just seems to devolve into a discussion about WTC7. Did the two large aircraft that struck the two huge buildings not have anything to do with it? The conspiracy theories just make no sense logically, and otherwise intelligent people are deluded by this nonsense!
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Old 2nd September 2019, 04:09 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
...
The 9/11 false narrative is just prolefeed for the masses.
9/11 truth is the only false narrative on 9/11 issues. Dumbed down claims where steel can't fail in fire. The fact is fire caused the collapse, the effects of fire. Fire causes steel to expand, and when it cools it contracts. Reality based engineers disagree on how WTC 7 failure began, but all agree it was due to damage and fire caused on 9/11 - the result of terrorism.

The fact is you have no evidence to support your claims. You never will. 18 years of 9/11 truth failure, why can't you present evidence.

In your fantasy world of wild speculation, who did it? You have no clue, you offer truther talk, unable to afford an engineering report to support your fantasy world of woo.

Gage had the money to fund a report with a fake conclusion. Saying you can't get the building to fail due to fire, means they failed to model fire and steel.

You could have had a PhD in engineering by now. 9/11 truth failed. Do you believe in the thermite lie too? lol
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Old 2nd September 2019, 04:32 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Skeletor View Post
Every year around this time, it seems I get into arguments with conspiracy theorists that bring up AE911Truth, and how it just seems to devolve into a discussion about WTC7. Did the two large aircraft that struck the two huge buildings not have anything to do with it? The conspiracy theories just make no sense logically, and otherwise intelligent people are deluded by this nonsense!
The de-facto reason for the focus on WTC7 is simple IMNSHO. It is harder for debunkers to prove no CD at WTC7.

Early debates had focussed on claims for CD at the Twin Towers. All such claims effectively rebutted - essentially because there is sufficient evidence in view to support explanation of the collapses and why CD help was not required. BUT the "tradition" has developed that "debunkers" accepted "Reversed Burden of DISproof". No truther seemed to be intelligent or competent enough to prove truther claims. So debunkers brought intelligence/competence into play and rebutted the claims giving counter explanations. So be it - that had become situation normal and still is the norm. And the truth movement had effectively lost the battle for CD at the Twin Towers.

THEN

Along came NIST's WTC7 report. The gross picture still looks a bit like CD but most of the detailed evidence was hidden inside the building. A gift from the gods for truthers - effectively led by AE911. So they shifted focus to WTC7 where the evidence is hidden and it is a lot harder for debunkers to DISprove.

Everyone forgetting that the actual burden of proof is with those claiming CD. And the truther reliance on "Reversed Burden" is itself a confession that they cannot prove their claims.

So that is the "big picture" as I see it.
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Old 2nd September 2019, 06:38 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by ozeco41 View Post
The de-facto reason for the focus on WTC7 is simple IMNSHO. It is harder for debunkers to prove no CD at WTC7.

Early debates had focussed on claims for CD at the Twin Towers. All such claims effectively rebutted - essentially because there is sufficient evidence in view to support explanation of the collapses and why CD help was not required. BUT the "tradition" has developed that "debunkers" accepted "Reversed Burden of DISproof". No truther seemed to be intelligent or competent enough to prove truther claims. So debunkers brought intelligence/competence into play and rebutted the claims giving counter explanations. So be it - that had become situation normal and still is the norm. And the truth movement had effectively lost the battle for CD at the Twin Towers.

THEN

Along came NIST's WTC7 report. The gross picture still looks a bit like CD but most of the detailed evidence was hidden inside the building. A gift from the gods for truthers - effectively led by AE911. So they shifted focus to WTC7 where the evidence is hidden and it is a lot harder for debunkers to DISprove.

Everyone forgetting that the actual burden of proof is with those claiming CD. And the truther reliance on "Reversed Burden" is itself a confession that they cannot prove their claims.

So that is the "big picture" as I see it.
Well summarized indeed. It was difficult for me to grasp what exactly had happened with WTC7 until I signed up for this forum, because the image of the building collapsing didn't tell the whole story.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 03:29 AM   #47
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Interesting to note that in the more than 10 years that AE911T has been around they still haven't put together a coherent reasonably detailed how these buildings were taken down with placed devices. They haven't even settled on where they were likely placed... what type they were which did not produce explosive sounds nor powerful mass ejections (multiple???). Their entire meme is that the buildings were too strong to collapse and fire can't lead to the collapse of a high rise. They build a case based on the true notion that media will spin, make errors and appears to be owned by powerful interests who push a pro war agenda.

A few attempts at what looks like technical work... Szamoboti, Harrit, and a few others have surfaced and presented flawed work proving nothing!

In the end AE911T is the center of what amounts to a cult or true believers with little to no technical background... immune to logic and reasoning.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 06:05 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Skeletor View Post
Every year around this time, it seems I get into arguments with conspiracy theorists that bring up AE911Truth, and how it just seems to devolve into a discussion about WTC7. Did the two large aircraft that struck the two huge buildings not have anything to do with it? The conspiracy theories just make no sense logically, and otherwise intelligent people are deluded by this nonsense!
Also, most seem to either not tackle, or tackle as separately as possible, the other two plane crashes. So many supporters of AE911Truth accept as natural that the technical geniuses around Gage, including Gage himself, cannot figure out and speak out loud what happened, in their mind, at the Pentagon and in Shanksville.
There is of course a bitter battle raging withing Trutherdom, and it has been a strategically smart decision by Gage not disagree with either side, so as to keep the money flowing from them all.



Oh - nice signature, by the way
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Old 3rd September 2019, 07:52 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
snip>



Oh - nice signature, by the way
Such modesty.
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Old 5th September 2019, 09:34 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Also, most seem to either not tackle, or tackle as separately as possible, the other two plane crashes. So many supporters of AE911Truth accept as natural that the technical geniuses around Gage, including Gage himself, cannot figure out and speak out loud what happened, in their mind, at the Pentagon and in Shanksville.
There is of course a bitter battle raging withing Trutherdom, and it has been a strategically smart decision by Gage not disagree with either side, so as to keep the money flowing from them all.



Oh - nice signature, by the way
I realized when I had submitted my reply how relevant your quote still is!

Nearly 18 years on, I'd imagine there are kids, who have grown up with Truther parents, that have been exposed to only the AE911Truth/Loose Change conspiracy theories and haven't been encouraged to question any of them.
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Old 6th September 2019, 08:22 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Oystein
Hi Fonebone! I am German, did you know? Yes, some Germans (look at me!) have done investigative work and discovered that Steven Jones and Niels Harrit are frauds, and that AE911Truth is a dying organization


Hi Oystein! Yes , I was fully informed by you of your nationality when discussed another German citizen Truth-seeker Andreas von Bülow
If I remember correctly you promptly smeared Mr. von Bülow with the anti-semitic **** bomb before labeling him as a pariah and embarrassment to the German people.
This is a link to Andreas von Bülow's own words on the 9-11 attacks:...
https://www.voltairenet.org/article133896.html


Edited by kmortis:  Do not mask vulgar language. Let the Autocensor do its job.
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Last edited by kmortis; 13th September 2019 at 05:03 AM.
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Old 10th September 2019, 02:45 PM   #52
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I will be at the candlelight service in Tewksbury MA as usual to pay respect to my lost friends. Personally, I don't give a damn what "truthers" think........
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Old 10th September 2019, 04:09 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
snip.
Oh - nice signature, by the way
Such modesty.
Actually the second line of DGM's sig is better.
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Old 11th September 2019, 07:23 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by ozeco41 View Post
Actually the second line of DGM's sig is better.
Shameless plug
Well it is the 18th anniversary here and I don't see a lot of truther quotes, just some memorials for those who died.
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Old 12th September 2019, 03:19 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
The 18th anniversary of 9/11 is only 4 weeks away, and as every year, we see a frenzy of preparatory activity to bring thousands of activists to the street all over the country.



The above is a lie.

The AE911Truth event calendar lists absolutely no activity at all in all of September 2019. Also, their recent newsletters have nothing on the anniversary.

The 9/11 Truth Project's calendar has two "events":
  1. The "15th Annual 9/11 Truth Film Festival" in Oakland, CA, hosted by the "Northern California 9/11 Truth Alliance", seems real as it features videos by James Corbett, John Massaria (about the 9/11 Museum accepting a piece of Truther art) and the David Chandler/Wayne Coste "Conference on the 9/11 Pentagon Evidence: Summary".
  2. A generic "18th Anniversary Remembrance and Activism for 9/11" placeholder - which features no specific time or place or activity at all, but rather a "Save the date" token, calling desperately that "You are needed to makr this happen", for 911TAP sure isn't. They ask you to "Subscribe to our newsletter to hear about upcoming activities", but the latest newsletter (which I received in my mail 3 days ago) simply does not contain any action.

I see nothing on 9/11 Blogger, nothing on Craig McKee's Truth and Shadows blog, I have noticed nothing on the various 9/11-Truth-themed Facebook groups that I frequent.

There are low-level, and not even fresh, rumors that Leroy Hulsey may have something ready for the anniversary, but there is no official talk about, which I guess means low confidence that he will have results.



So please, all, help:
What is going to happen on 9/11 this year? Nothing? They seem to be not even trying
.
Eighteen years ago thousands of people including many Americans were killed in what is now the is the biggest and most destructive terrorist attack on American soil.

And what is the question that is asked?

“So please, all, help:
What is going to happen on 9/11 this year(with the Truther)? Nothing? They seem to be not even trying.”

This displays a very bizarre and strange obsession called “Truther derangement syndrome”, instead of asking the real questions about 9/11. The real question is, why did the US government deliberately allow these horrific al Qaeda terrorist attacks to take place? Why did the US government allow these terrorists to murder so many people in the US?

When you see images of the attacks taking place on this anniversary and know all of the people who were killed, it makes you just completely sick knowing there was no real reason why the US government should have allowed the al Qaeda terrorists to carry out this horrific attack. The US government had way more than enough information to have prevented this attack.

What we know today is the following, information that has finally come out, only many years after these attacks.

The CIA knew from a NSA cable, that al Qaeda terrorists Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi were going to an important al Qaeda planning meeting in Kuala Lumpur, in January 2000, and even knew that this meeting was planning terrorist attacks on American interests. Other terrorists at this meeting were Walid bin Attash, later identified as a the mastermind of the Cole bombing, Hambali, the famous Indonesian terrorist, and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the terrorist who had been involved in the Bojinka plot, and had already a $2,000,000 FBI reward on his head. Incredibly, the CIA let all of these terrorists walk away without arresting anyone, even though many of these terrorists were connected to the east African embassy bombings.

And, incredibly this information went to FBI Director Louis Freeh , FBI high level manager Dale Watson and acting FBI Director Tom Pickard.

On March 5, 2000, the CIA was informed that two al Qaeda terrorists had entered the US, Nawaf al-Hazmi, and another unidentified terrorist, and they decided to keep this information completely secret, even from the FBI. All they had to do was look at the flight manifest for the flight Hazmi took to the US from Bangkok to find Mihdhar on this same flight.

On July 10, 2001, the information that a huge al Qaeda terrorist attack was likely aimed at the US, was given by CIA Director George Tenet, CTC Director Cofer Black and Bin Laden Station chief Richard Blee, to Condoleezza Rice, John Hadley and Ricard Clarke at the White House. This same information was given to John Ashcroft and Donald Rumsfeld on July 17 2001.

On July 13, 2001 and July 23, 2001, when the spy the CIA had moved over into the FBI, Tom Wilshere, to find out did the FBI Cole bombing criminal investigators know that Mihdhar and Hazmi had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing, had second thoughts about his role as spy inside of the FBI, and wanted to pass the Kuala Lumpur information to the FBI Cole bombing investigators. The CIA managers, not only refused to give him permission to do this, but refused to even reply to his requests, so they would have “plausible deniability”.

On August 6, 2001, the president is given a briefing paper that is titled, “Bin Laden determined to carry out a terrorist attacks inside of the US”, and the information from that paper that indicated this attack might be aircraft hijackings aimed at buildings in Manhattan.

On August 21, 2001 Wilshere is told Mihdhar and Hazmi are inside of the US in order to take part in this massive al Qaeda terrorists attacks, and this information was sent to the people working for Wilshere FBI HQ agent Dana Corsi and rest of the CIA on the next day on August 22, 2001.

On August 23, 2001, George Tenet finds out that an Islamic extremist who was trying to learn how to fly a B747 without even having a pilot’s license, had been arrested by the INS at the request of Minneapolis FBI, and these agents had asked the CIA for help to get information so they would have probable cause to search Moussaoui’s possessions. Tenet and the CIA refused to provide any help at all to the Minneapolis FBI agents, even when they knew a huge al Qaeda terrorist attack about to take place was aimed right at the US that would likely involve hijacked aircraft.

On August 28, 2001, when FBI criminal agent Steve Bongardt, got FBI HQ’s agent Dina Corsi’s EC to start an investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi, he called her so he could take part in this investigation in order to find these al Qaeda terrorists before they had time to carry out an al Qaeda terrorist attacks inside of the US. In spite of having already been approved to give the NSA information in her EC to Bongardt and his team, she and her supervisor Rod Middleton, tells Bongardt that she does not have this permission and therefore he has to shut down his investigation. We now know that Corsi and Middleton were working under the direct supervision of Tom Wilshere, and all knew by shutting down Bongardt’s investigation, would allow the al Qaeda terrorists to carry out a horrific terrorist attack inside of the US.

The CIA was aware of Mihdhar and Hazmi, 21 months before the attacks on 9/11, knew they had visas for the US and even knew they were inside of the US, three weeks ahead of the 9/11 attack, in order to take part in this horrific al Qaeda terrorist attack and then let then get on commercial aircraft, and pay for 10 tickets used by al Qaeda terrorists on 9/11. This is not just simply stupid, this is way, way, way, beyond stupid.

The people on this form have defended the CIA and FBI, using every completely absurd, stupid, moronic, and asinine excuse in this defense; the CIA just did not share information with the FBI, these agencies were just arrogant, the people at these agencies were just too stupid, the people at the CIA and FBI were just completely incompetent. They would even have you believe that the CIA should be called the CSA, the Central Stupid Agency, or perhaps even the CSSA, the Central Super Stupid Agency.

But not one of these excuses make the slightest bit of sense in the light of the facts that have come out since these attacks took place, evidence that shows that the attacks were allowed to happen because of deliberate actions by the CIA and by FBI agents that had been corrupted by the CIA.

Again, when you see images of these attacks taking place on this anniversary and know all of the people who were killed, it makes you just completely sick knowing there was no reasonable reason why the US government should have allowed the al Qaeda terrorists to carry out this horrific attack.

Last edited by paloalto; 12th September 2019 at 05:17 PM.
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Old 12th September 2019, 03:29 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
Eighteen years ago thousands of people including many Americans were killed in what is now the is the biggest and most destructive terrorist attack on American soil. ...
Yes, and you had prior knowledge and failed to stop it. Why did you fail to stop Flight 11, 175, 77, and 93?

OOPS, who failed to tell the Flight 93 Passengers to let it happen? The fact is hijackings before 9/11 were allowed to happen, in a sense: for example DB Cooper, did the FBI see that one coming too?

Better sue the authors of books using some of your stuff, see Amazon.
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Old 12th September 2019, 03:36 PM   #57
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Waiting to see what the Truthers find to yell about in the new History Channel documentary "9/11:Inside Air Force One".
I did not find anything at all they could use,but I am sure they will find something....
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:04 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
Yes, and you had prior knowledge and failed to stop it. Why did you fail to stop Flight 11, 175, 77, and 93?

OOPS, who failed to tell the Flight 93 Passengers to let it happen? The fact is hijackings before 9/11 were allowed to happen, in a sense: for example DB Cooper, did the FBI see that one coming too?

Better sue the authors of books using some of your stuff, see Amazon.
The FBI told me, that, I did not have the flight numbers of the planes that were going to be hijacked or the names of the terrorists who were going to take part in this attack. The FBI agent who interviewed me "under oath", told me that without this specific information, they would have done nothing with my information, that I did not have the specific information that they could have used to stop this attack.

And further they said that the very first question they would have asked me was "what information did I have that was not based on speculation", and I would have said, I had no information at all that was not based on speculation. It was clear, that the FBI does not start any criminal investigation based on speculation.

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Old 12th September 2019, 05:15 PM   #59
paloalto
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
Yes, and you had prior knowledge and failed to stop it. Why did you fail to stop Flight 11, 175, 77, and 93?

OOPS, who failed to tell the Flight 93 Passengers to let it happen? The fact is hijackings before 9/11 were allowed to happen, in a sense: for example DB Cooper, did the FBI see that one coming too?

Better sue the authors of books using some of your stuff, see Amazon.
Better sue the authors of books using some of your stuff, see Amazon.

I actually gave several authors the material in my book, so they could use this material in their books. These books are "Disconnecting the Dots", by Kevin Fenton and The Eleventh Day", by Anthony Summers and Robbyn Swan, who used material I sent to them along the material Kevin had in his book that came from my book. I never had any intention to sue anyone who used material from my book, In fact, I welcomed it.
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Old 12th September 2019, 09:59 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
The people on this form have defended the CIA and FBI, using every completely absurd, stupid, moronic, and asinine excuse in this defense; the CIA just did not share information with the FBI, these agencies were just arrogant, the people at these agencies were just too stupid, the people at the CIA and FBI were just completely incompetent. They would even have you believe that the CIA should be called the CSA, the Central Stupid Agency, or perhaps even the CSSA, the Central Super Stupid Agency.

But not one of these excuses make the slightest bit of sense in the light of the facts that have come out since these attacks took place, evidence that shows that the attacks were allowed to happen because of deliberate actions by the CIA and by FBI agents that had been corrupted by the CIA.

Again, when you see images of these attacks taking place on this anniversary and know all of the people who were killed, it makes you just completely sick knowing there was no reasonable reason why the US government should have allowed the al Qaeda terrorists to carry out this horrific attack.
You ignore so many facts to be taken seriously.

It wasn't "The CIA", it was Alec Station which withheld information. It wasn't "The FBI" it was the FBI's bin Laden Group run out of the NYC office which was both co-opted by Alec Station and sat on its own intel. For some reason the fact that neither Alec Station nor the NYC bin Laden Group were not integrated with their respective Counter-Terrorism desks doesn't throw up any red flags for you. CIA officers often do not share intel outside of their groups. On 9-11 the CIA balked at giving White House NSC all of their information even though the attacks were in progress, and had to have their arms twisted.

We get it, you hate the CIA. Whatever, but it's just another government agency. Somehow the Clinton Administration's NSC gets a pass even though they sat on Al Qaeda for a number of years and Sandy Berger stole documents from the National Archives relating to Al Qaeda, and destroyed them. Why is it that with 9-11 Truther types the claim where there's smoke there's fire except where there is actual smoke and flames?
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Old 13th September 2019, 02:59 AM   #61
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@paloalto... I don't think all people who are not accepting AE911T's position support everything about the CIA and FBI.

My sense is that the information was non specific and intel didn't have policies about how to preemptively stop a plot which they likely had no specific information... date, flight numbers and so on. They may have been following some suspected mischeif makers but lacked hard evidence to make an arrest in August or before. In retrospective it may look like the bungled things or to some worse... they let it happen... believe airport security at the time would catch them boarding. MAYBE. There was no shoot down policy and there was essentially nothing the US could do once the planes were hijacked. Today we still wouldn't shoot down a hijacked commercial airliner.

To stop a crime which has not yet occurred would mean an arrest for conspiracy. This takes lots of time and is complex. And perhaps this was going on... Intel saw dots, and were trying to find more and connect them. Apparently they had no one "inside" to feed them intel. AQ's communication was hard to pick up using sigint, And US had laws as well protecting such things without a warrant which was difficult to obtain I believe.

My sense is not that intel let 911 happen as much as did not have all the data to prevent it legally or even make illegal arrests of all the hijackers before or in the act. It looks to me that intel failed and we were caught off guard with only some fore knowledge. How did thy determine that AQ would attack? How specific was the intel? Without actionable intel what should the response have been?

For example... I believe there will be more terrorist attacks in the US and in Europe. I am hereby issuing a warning. But while this may be true.... there is nothing actionable except more security, surveillance etc. At the time imposing more security and abuse of 4th amendment rights would not have been acceptable to the citizens. Post 911 we accept taken our shoes off at airports and all the security cameras all over the place believing this is making us safe and can prevent another 911. We now have traded some freedom for security.
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Old 13th September 2019, 05:56 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
The FBI told me, that, I did not have the flight numbers of the planes that were going to be hijacked or the names of the terrorists who were going to take part in this attack. The FBI agent who interviewed me "under oath", told me that without this specific information, they would have done nothing with my information, that I did not have the specific information that they could have used to stop this attack.
Do you have a problem with this? I fail to see what the issue is here.

Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
And further they said that the very first question they would have asked me was "what information did I have that was not based on speculation", and I would have said, I had no information at all that was not based on speculation. It was clear, that the FBI does not start any criminal investigation based on speculation.
Again, I fail to see the issue here. You cannot expect any law enforcement agency to go running off after every call they get: they need something more than speculation, paranoia, psychic visions, or mental health issue-induced delusions.(Not saying you exhibit the latter, rather that there are plenty of cranks out there who seem to delight in wasting their time, or who crave the attention, or who genuinely believe they can see into the future).
Time and time again, I have asked you how you could have predicted the exact plan, given the information available at the time. You have dodged this question every single time.
I'll ask you again: given the information available to either agency at the time, and given the deplorable state of communications between the two, how could you have predicted the exact date and locations of the attacks?
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Old 13th September 2019, 06:58 AM   #63
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I can tell you from being at the sire for this year's memorial service.

I personally didn't see any truther signs, Just a lot of love and comradery.
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Old 14th September 2019, 02:04 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
...

I actually gave several authors the material in my book, so they could use this material in their books. These books are "Disconnecting the Dots", by Kevin Fenton and The Eleventh Day", by Anthony Summers and Robbyn Swan, who used material I sent to them along the material Kevin had in his book that came from my book. I never had any intention to sue anyone who used material from my book, In fact, I welcomed it.
Your BS nonsense is based on hindsight. You think in real time the organizations you make up lies about had the vision, the insight you have due to hindsight. You work can be called the tag line/quote from Young Frankenstein, guess which one. Your Claims fall short of reality.
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Old 15th September 2019, 05:14 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
You ignore so many facts to be taken seriously.

It wasn't "The CIA", it was Alec Station which withheld information. It wasn't "The FBI" it was the FBI's bin Laden Group run out of the NYC office which was both co-opted by Alec Station and sat on its own intel. For some reason the fact that neither Alec Station nor the NYC bin Laden Group were not integrated with their respective Counter-Terrorism desks doesn't throw up any red flags for you. CIA officers often do not share intel outside of their groups. On 9-11 the CIA balked at giving White House NSC all of their information even though the attacks were in progress, and had to have their arms twisted.

We get it, you hate the CIA. Whatever, but it's just another government agency. Somehow the Clinton Administration's NSC gets a pass even though they sat on Al Qaeda for a number of years and Sandy Berger stole documents from the National Archives relating to Al Qaeda, and destroyed them. Why is it that with 9-11 Truther types the claim where there's smoke there's fire except where there is actual smoke and flames?
I don't know if I would call this a confused mess of ignorance or an ignorant mess of confusion.

As to the details of the actions at the CIA and FBI see my post #55, I even name all of the people who were involved with criminal actions that had allowed the attacks on 9/11 to take place.

You wrote:

“You ignore so many facts to be taken seriously.

It wasn't "The CIA", it was Alec Station which withheld information.”

It was not just the CIA bin Laden unit that withheld information from the FBI (criminal investigators) but the following CIA stations:

January 4-8, 2000

The information of the Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting was withheld from FBI criminal investigators by: the Malaysian Station, the Dubai Station, the Thailand Station, the Yemen Station, the bin Laden Station, and the upper management of the CIA, including Cofer Black and George Tenet. The information on this meeting and even the full name Khalid al-Mihdhar was given to FBI Director. Louis Freeh, Dale Watson, high level manager at the FBI and in June, 2001, and acting FBI Director, Tom Pickard, none of whom gave this information to the FBI Cole bombing investigators. When FBI Agent Ali Soufan requested an official request be sent to the CIA from Freeh, for any information on any al Qaeda planning meeting in January 2000, and any information on Walid bin Attash, Freeh, claimed this information did not exist, even when he himself, had gotten much of this information from the CIA and Tenet himself, in January 2000.

March 5, 2000

The fact that Mihdhar and Hazmi had entered the US: the Malaysian Station, the Thailand Station, and the bin Laden Station.

January 4, 2001

The identification of Walid bin Attash at the Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting, indicating that Mihdhar and Hazmi had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing: the Pakistan Station, the Yemen Station, the bin Laden Station, the CTC managers at the CIA, and the upper management of the CIA including John Gannon and George Tenet.

June 12, 2001

The information that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was sending terrorists into the US in the summer of 2001, to link up with Mihdhar and Hazmi to carry out a huge al Qaeda terrorist attack, (based on the Bojinka plot): the Rendition Station, the CTC managers at the CIA, upper management of the CIA.

July 23, 2001

The information that Khalid al-Mihdhar would be found at the point of the next big al Qaeda terrorist attack: the bin Laden Station, the CTC managers, including Richard Blee, and Cofer Black, and upper management at the CIA.

July 13, and July 23, 2001

The information that the CIA spy inside of the FBI at the ITOS unit, Tom Wilshere, had been ordered to criminally sabotage any investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi by the FBI Cole bombing investigators; the bin Laden Station, the CTC managers at the CIA and upper management at the CIA.

August 22, 2001

The information that Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi were inside of the US in order to take part in a massive al Qaeda terrorist attack that would kill massive numbers of American: the FBI bin Laden unit at FBI HQs, and at the CIA, the bin Laden Station, the CTC managers, and the upper management at the CIA. This information went from the CIA bin Laden Station to the FBI bin Laden unit on August 21, 2001, over three weeks prior to the attacks on 9/11, and in plenty of time to have found them and stopped the attacks on 9/11.

August 23, 2001

The information that in spite of knowing a huge al Qaeda terrorist attack was about to take place inside of the US, that the criminal investigation and search warrants for a suspected Kattab/al Qaeda terrorist attempting to learn how to fly a B747 without even having a pilot’s license, were being blocked,: the RFU unit in the ITOS unit at the FBI, FBI ITOS senior management, and the very highest senior CIA management including George Tenet. Tenet and the CIA, even when they knew a huge al Qaeda terrorist attack was just about to take place inside of the US, refused to help the Minneapolis FBI get a FISA warrant for Moussaoui’s possessions. Had Tenet given the Minneapolis FBI agents just the information they had, these agents could have gotten a search warrant, found the receipt for $14000, from Ramzi bin al-Shibh, and unraveled the plan for this attack in just a few days.

August 28,29, 2001

The information that in spite of knowing a huge al Qaeda terrorist attack was just about to take place inside of the US, and that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US in order to take part in this attack that would kill a massive number of Americans, and that the criminal investigation and criminal search warrants for Mihdhar and Hazmi were being shut down allowing this attack to take place: the senior management of the FBI ITOS unit, the bin Laden unit at the FBI, CIA the bin Laden Station, upper management of the CIA including George Tenet.

You wrote: “It wasn't "The FBI" it was the FBI's bin Laden Group run out of the NYC office which was both co-opted by Alec Station and sat on its own intel.”

Wrong again it was the RFU unit under the ITOS unit, the bin Laden unit under the ITOS unit, and senior manager in the ITOS, who were criminally sabotaging the criminal investigation of Moussaoui, and who had been ordered by the CIA to criminally sabotage the FBI Cole bombing investigating of Mihdhar and Hazmi.

You wrote: “For some reason the fact that neither Alec Station nor the NYC bin Laden Group were not integrated with their respective Counter-Terrorism desks doesn't throw up any red flags for you.

The organization where “neither Alec Station nor the NYC bin Laden Group were not integrated with their respective Counter-Terrorism desks” had nothing to do with allowing these attacks to take place.”
Wrong again.

What allowed these attacks to take place was the following:

The take over the highest management positions at the CIA by a criminal element, at the very the highest levels, who ordered that information on al Qaeda terrorists to be kept secret from the John O’Neill and his team of investigators at the New York office.

The actions of the CIA, with respect to the Joint Source, was treacherous. The agreement between the CIA and FBI when there was any debriefing of the CIA/FBI Joint Source, that both the FBI Alat and CIA Alat were to be present at the debriefing. It is now clear that when the January 4, 2001 debriefing took place, the CIA Alat gave the FBI Alat, material to photocopy, and when the FBI Alat was out of the room where the debriefing took placed, showed the Joint source the photo of Walid bin Attash at Kuala Lumpur. The fact that the Joint Source identified Walid bin Attash, in the Kuala Lumpur photo was never made known to the FBI Cole bombing investigators until after 9/11, this photo and this information was sent to FBI ITOS manager Rod Middleton on August 30, 2001. In spite of the Mifddleton knowing that Mihdhjar and Hazmi had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing, which should have allowed Bongardt to continue his investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi, Middleton kept this information secret from the Cole bombing investigators.

When on January 4, 2001, these CIA managers, and specifically George Tenet, found out that Walid bin Attash, had been identified with these two al Qaeda terrorists at the Kuala Lumpur meeting, and knew this meant these terrorists, Mihdhar and Hazmi, had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing, he ordered that all cables coming from the many overseas and domestic CIA stations sent to the FBI and the NSC, be scrubbed from any information on Khalid al-Mihdhar, Nawaf al-Hazmi, Walid bin Attash and any mention of the Kuala Lumpur meeting.

When FBI Agent Ali Soufan sent an official FBI request to George Tenet, in April 2001, asking if the CIA had any information on Walid bin Atash and any al Qaeda planning meeting in Kuala Lumpur, Tenet thought that the FBI Cole bombing investigators might have connected Walid bin Attash to this al Qaeda planning meeting and may have uncovered the information that they had been trying to keep secret, the information that Mihdhar and Hazmi had been at Kuala Lumpur with Walid bin Attash, planning the Cole bombing.
To find out what the FBI knew, Tenet moved one of his senior bin Laden Station managers, Tom Wilshere, over to the FBI ITOS unit, the unit over the Cole bombing investigators, to find out what the Cole bombing investigators knew.

Incredibly, and inexplicably, Wilshere was able to quickly enlist FBI IOS Agent Dina Corsi to set up a meeting with Soufan’s own people, Steve Bongardt and his team, and get her to present them the photos of Mihdhar and Hazmi taken at Kuala Lumpur, to find out exactly what they knew about these terrorists. On June 11, this meeting took place in the FBI field office in New York City, and Corsi presented three photos of Mihdhar taken at Kuala Lumpur to Bongardt and his team.

Then CIA officer Clarke Shannon asked; Did these FBI Cole bombing investigators recognize anyone on these photos? Bongardt said they did not know who these people were, and asked who the people in the photos were, why were the CIA surveying them and what did they have to do with the Cole bombing?
Shannon and Corsi said they could not give him any of information, due to the “wall”, a wall that was nothing but pure fiction, an illegal technique FBI HQ's used many times to keep information away from FBI field agents.

The wall was actually a procedure issued by the DOJ that forbid DOJ prosecutors from directing the activities of FBI intelligence agents. This procedure never even went out side of the DOJ and FBI. It never restricted in any way, communications between CIA officers and FBI criminal or FBI intelligence agents, or between FBI intelligence agents and FBI criminal investigators.

On July 13, and 23 Wilshere, having second thoughts about his role as a spy at the FBI, secretly requested permission from his CIA managers at the CTC, to pass the Kuala Lumpur information to the FBI [Cole bombing investigators], he was never given this permission.

On August 21, 2001, Wilshere is told by Margaret Gillespie, that an inquiry to the INS indicated that Khalid al-Mihdhar and al-Hazmi were inside of the US. Wilshere requested that she, FBI IOS agent Dina Corsi, meet with him in his office the next day. At this meeting, he requested that Corsi write up an EC to start a intelligence investigation, and that Gillespie bring this information back to the CIA bin Laden unit.

On August 28, 2001, Corsi’s EC is sent to Craig Donnechie at the FBI New York office, who thinks this connects Mihdhar and Hazmi to people connected to the Cole bombing and sent this to his boss John Ligouri, who then sent this EC on to Steve Bongardt.

Bongardt called Corsi immediately and told her he needed to take part in this investigation and search for Mihdhar and Hazmi before they had time to carry out a horrific terrorist attack inside of the US. Corsi, tells Bongardt that he cannot even have her EC, that he cannot start any investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi, and he has to destroy the copy he has of her EC, because of the fact that the NSA cable in her EC needed to be approved by the NSA General Council before it could be sent to FBI criminal investigators. But Corsi, had already had been approved by the NSA General Council the day before on August 27, 2001, to give the NSA cable in her EC to “the New York criminal agents”, Steve Bongardt and his team

Bongardt tells Corsi, that he thinks she is confused, that any restriction on him having this NSA cable in her EC would only apply if the evidence in this cable came from a FISA warrant, and since the phone call described in this cable was to a phone in Yemen, between two terrorists outside of the US, this NSA cable would have had no connection to any FISA warrant. He asked her, would she ask lawyers at the NSLU for permission to see if could to start an investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi.

August 29, 2001

Corsi calls Bongardt and says that the attorney, she and Middleton, had contacted had ruled that he could have no role in any investigation for Mihdhar, and if Mihdhar was arrested and interviewed, he could not attend the interview. But according to Sabol, from the 9/11 Commission report, since the NSA cable had no connection to any FISA warrant, Sabol told Corsi, that Bongardt could take part or start any criminal investigation for Mihdhar that he wanted.

The investigation had been given to Robert Fuller on August 28, 2001, who had never done an intelligence investigation before. When he had gotten nowhere, Fuller called Corsi and asked her for permission to call Saudi Arabian Airlines, the airline Mihdhar had flown into the US on July 4, 2001, in order to get Mihdhar’s credit card number. Corsi refused to give Fuller permission saying it was just not appropriate to call the airline a get Mihdhar’s credit card number. On September 11, 2001 Fuller’s search for Mihdhar had gone nowhere.

While it is clear that the organization of the CIA and FBI did not have any significant issue in allowing the attacks on 9/11, several CIA and FBI practices and procedures did. When FBI Agent Doug Miller wanted to send the FBI a cable on Mihdhar’s passport and visa on January 5, 2000, this cable was blocked by CIA bin Landen Deputy Chief, Tom Wilshere. The FBI never should have allowed FBI CIR’s back to the FBI to have to be approved by the CIA managers before they could be sent to the FBI, just this change alone would have prevented the attacks on 9/11

The FBI agents at the bin Laden station should have watch listed themselves, all of the al Qaeda terrorist identified at the Kuala Lumpur meeting. How much effort would that have taken, not much!

Tom Wilshere was moved over to the FBI in mid-May 2001, to spy on the FBI Cole bombing investigators. Because if this, and his secret orders from his prior CIA managers, to effectively shut down any investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi, the attacks on 9/11 were allowed to take place. The FBI should never again allow CIA officers to work in critical FBI units, in positions that would supervise FBI agents and managers!

When FBI Agent Steve Bongardt wanted to get an opinion from the NSLU on whether he could take part in or start an investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi, and was told that he could not, which was a complete lie. This blocked his investigation and allowed the attacks on 9/11 to take place. All opinions from lawyers at the NSLU should be written down and given directly to the FBI criminal agents who had wanted the ruling and require an acknowledgement from the original agents that they had reviewed the written ruling. This alone would have prevented the attacks on 9/11.

If any important FBI criminal investigation, is inexplicably blocked, the FBI criminal investigators should have had a way to send a request to proceed with their investigation, directly and immediately to the office of the FBI Director, with no permission required from anyone else at the FBI, via some method of “emergency alert”. This would have let Samit get a FISA warrant for Moussaoui’s possessions, located the receipt from Ramzi bin al Shibh, and would have prevented the attacks on 9/11. Bongardt could have started an investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi. He would have had had two weeks to find them, more than enough time. Since the FBI could quickly have gotten Mihdhar’s credit card number, just a credit card search would have found him and 9 other terrorists who took part in 9/11, in just hours.

You wrote: “We get it, you hate the CIA.”

I actually do not hate the CIA, in fact, I have no feeling one way or the other, with respect to the CIA. But I think it was a real shame they deliberately allowed the al Qaeda terrorists to carry out the attacks on 9/11, murdering thousands of people including many Americans. And to date they and no one else has been able to explain why they did this. Most of these people died a horrible death, they literally burned to death in the WTC Towers, and the CIA should not have to let this happen. Maybe you think this is just OK, but the 3000 families who lost their family members on 9/11 do not think this was OK.

Your wrote: CIA officers often do not share intel outside of their groups.

But, this the testimony of Cofer Black, head of the CIA CTC, to the Joint Inquiry Committee and the 9/11 Commission stating:

“We , the CIA, are in the business of providing information to the FBI, and
not withholding it.”

Cofer disputes your statement, in testimony under oath made in a sworn statements to several US government public hearings.

Last edited by paloalto; 15th September 2019 at 05:57 PM.
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Old 15th September 2019, 08:07 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
The organization where “neither Alec Station nor the NYC bin Laden Group were not integrated with their respective Counter-Terrorism desks” had nothing to do with allowing these attacks to take place.”
Wrong again.

What allowed these attacks to take place was the following:

Quote:
The take over the highest management positions at the CIA by a criminal element, at the very the highest levels, who ordered that information on al Qaeda terrorists to be kept secret from the John O’Neill and his team of investigators at the New York office.
Do you have that memo?


Quote:
The actions of the CIA, with respect to the Joint source, was treacherous. The agreement between the CIA and FBI when there was any debriefing of the CIA/FBI Joint Source, that both the FBI Alat and CIA Alat were to be present at the debriefing. It is now clear that when the January 4, 2001 debriefing took place, the CIA Alat gave the FBI Alat, material to photocopy, and when the FBI Alat was out of the room where the debriefing took placed, showed the Joint source the photo of Walid bin Attash at Kuala Lumpur. The fact that the Joint Source identified Walid bin Attash, in the Kuala Lumpur photo was never made known to the FBI Cole bombing investigators until after 9/11, this photo and this information was sent to FBI ITOS manager Rod Middleton on August 30, 2001. In spite of the Mifddleton knowing that Mihdhjar and Hazmi had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing, which should have allowed Bongardt to continue his investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi, Middleton kept this information secret from the Cole bombing investigators.
Obviously this is key because it was the only way the FBI could have known...oh wait, they would have discovered this information independently had O'Neil not pisses off the US Ambassador to Yemen and handicapped the FBI's USS Cole investigation on the ground there.



Quote:
When on January 4, 2001, these CIA managers, and specifically George Tenet, found out that Walid bin Attash, had been identified with these two al Qaeda terrorists at the Kuala Lumpur meeting, and knew this meant these terrorists, Mihdhar and Hazmi, had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing, he ordered that all cables coming from the many overseas and domestic CIA stations sent to the FBI and the NSC, be scrubbed from any information on Khalid al-Mihdhar, Nawaf al-Hazmi, Walid bin Attash and any mention of the Kuala Lumpur meeting.
Cool, and what else was Tenent briefed on back on 4 January, 2001, and what did he brief President Clinton on regarding this situation?

Quote:
When FBI Agent Ali Soufan sent an official FBI request to George Tenet, in April 2001, asking if the CIA had any information on Walid bin Atash and any al Qaeda planning meeting in Kuala Lumpur, Tenet thought that the FBI Cole bombing investigators might have connected Walid bib Atash to this al Qaeda planning meeting and may have uncovered the information that they had been trying to keep secret, the information that Mihdhar and Hazmi had been at Kuala Lumpur with Walid bin Attash, planning the Cole bombing.
To find out what the FBI knew, Tenet moved one of his senior bin Laden Station managers, Tom Wilshere, over to the FBI ITOS unit, the unit over the Cole bombing investigators, to find out what the Cole bombing investigators knew.
Weird, almost as if the CIA and FBI didn't trust each other.


Quote:
Incredibly, and inexplicably, Wilshere was able to quickly enlist FBI IOS Agent Dina Corsi to set up a meeting with Soufan’s own people, Steve Bongardt and his team, and get her to present them the photos of Mihdhar and Hazmi taken at Kuala Lumpur, to find out exactly what they knew about these terrorists. On June 11, this meeting took place in the FBI field office in New York City, and Corsi presented three photos of Mihdhar taken at Kuala Lumpur to Bongardt and his team.

Then CIA officer Clarke Shannon asked; Did these FBI Cole bombing investigators recognize anyone on these photos? Bongardt said they did not know who these people were, and asked who the people in the photos were, why were the CIA surveying them and what did they have to do with the Cole bombing?
Shannon and Corsi said they could not give him any of information, due to the “wall”, a wall that was nothing but pure fiction, an illegal technique FBI HQ's used many times to keep information away from FBI field agents.
This was covered in the book "The Looming Towers".

Quote:
The wall was actually a procedure issued by the DOJ that forbid DOJ prosecutors from directing the activities of FBI intelligence agents. This procedure never even went out side of the DOJ and FBI. It never restricted in any way, communications between CIA officers and FBI criminal or FBI intelligence agents, or between FBI intelligence agents and FBI criminal investigators.
And yet that was NOT the way it was practiced by the CIA or the FBI.

Quote:
On July 13, and 23 Wilshere, having second thoughts about his role as a spy at the FBI, secretly requested permission from his CIA managers at the CTC, to pass the Kuala Lumpur information to the FBI [Cole bombing investigators], he was never given this permission.

On August 21, 2001, Wilshere is told by Margaret Gillespie, that an inquiry to the INS indicated that Khalid al-Mihdhar and al-Hazmi were inside of the US. Wilshere requested that she, FBI IOS agent Dina Corsi, meet with him in his office the next day. At this meeting, he requested that Corsi write up an EC to start a intelligence investigation, and that Gillespie bring this information back to the CIA bin Laden unit.
This has been public knowledge since 2007.

Quote:
Bongardt called Corsi immediately and told her he needed to take part in this investigation and search for Mihdhar and Hazmi before they had time to carry out a horrific terrorist attack inside of the US. Corsi, tells Bongardt that he cannot even have her EC, that he cannot start any investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi, and he has to destroy the copy he has of her EC, because of the fact that the NSA cable in her EC needed to be approved by the NSA General Council before it could be sent to FBI criminal investigators. But Corsi, had already had been approved by the NSA General Council the day before on August 27, 2001, to give the NSA cable in her EC to “the New York criminal agents”, Steve Bongardt and his team

Bongardt tells Corsi, that he thinks she is confused, that any restriction on him having this NSA cable in her EC would only apply if the evidence in this cable came from a FISA warrant, and since the phone call described in this cable was to a phone in Yemen, between two terrorists outside of the US, this NSA cable would have had no connection to any FISA warrant. He asked her, would she ask lawyers at the NSLU for permission to see if could to start an investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi.
You left out the part where the NSA did an audit in the week after 9-11 and discovered that had just about every piece of the puzzle (except for the targets) related to Al Qaeda's operation. The NSA didn't know that had it because they vacuum up all electronic communications, and yet nobody at Langley had asked them to flag these Al Qaeda related communications. Why do you think that was the case? Why wasn't Alec Station utilizing the NSA's vast intercept capabilities? Why wasn't O'Neil's group tasking NSA for intel?

This suggests that while O'Neil's FBI team and Alec Station were treating the Al Qaeda threat as a science project instead of a National Security threat, at least on some level.


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The investigation had been given to Robert Fuller on August 28, 2001, who had never done an intelligence investigation before. When he had gotten nowhere, Fuller called Corsi and asked her for permission to call Saudi Arabian Airlines, the airline Mihdhar had flown into the US on July 4, 2001, in order to get Mihdhar’s credit card number. Corsi refused to give Fuller permission saying it was just not appropriate to call the airline a get Mihdhar’s credit card number. On September 11, 2001 Fuller’s search for Mihdhar had gone nowhere.
Why not call US Customs/? They should have had that information. And they could have called the airlines about the credit card information.

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While it is clear that the organization of the CIA and FBI did not have any significant issue in allowing the attacks on 9/11, several CIA and FBI practices and procedures did. When FBI Agent Doug Miller wanted to send the FBI a cable on Mihdhar’s passport and visa on January 5, 2000, this cable was blocked by CIA bin Landen Deputy Chief, Tom Wilshere. The FBI never should have allowed FBI CIR’s back to the FBI to have to be approved by the CIA managers before they could be sent to the FBI, just this change alone would have prevented the attacks on 9/11
You don't know this would have prevented anything. One could argue that they would have been replaced by operators who were more ambitious, and on 9-11 they hijack 10 planes instead of 4.


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The FBI agents at the bin Laden station should have watch listed themselves, all of the al Qaeda terrorist identified at the Kuala Lumpur meeting. How much effort would that have taken, not much!
That leaves 17 hijackers.


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If any important FBI criminal investigation, is inexplicably blocked, the FBI criminal investigators should have had a way to send a request to proceed with their investigation, directly and immediately to the office of the FBI Director, with no permission required from anyone else at the FBI, via some method of “emergency alert”.
And somehow you don't see this internal FBI culture as a legitimate explanation as to why agents couldn't press their case? The FBI still does this today. I agree that they need to trust their agents more, and the fact that some mid-level manager can kill an investigation has harmed justice in many cases in the past, and well as the present. The flip-side is that these road blocks have been put in place as a result of cases like Richard Jewell, Randy Weaver, not to mention a laundry list of abuses by FBI field offices under Hoover in the 1950's, 60's, and 70's.


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This would have let Samit get a FISA warrant for Moussaoui’s possessions, located the receipt from Ramzi bin al Shibh, and would have prevented the attacks on 9/11. Bongardt could have started an investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi, he would have had had two weeks to find them, more than enough time. Since the FBI could quickly have gotten Mihdhar’s credit card number, just a credit card search would have found him and 9 other terrorists who took part in 9/11, in just hours.
Maybe, maybe not. The other hijackers had committed no crimes. Hamzi and Mihdhar would have lawyered up, and the FBI would have been left with nothing because nobody could have compelled those guys to talk. The rest would have been deported and a new set of hijackers put together with the same plan. Or something worse.

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You wrote: “We get it, you hate the CIA.”
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I actually do not hate the CIA, in fact, I have no feeling one way or the other, with respect to the CIA. But I think it was a real shame they deliberately allowed the al Qaeda terrorists to carry out the attacks on 9/11, murdering thousands of people including many Americans.
Your language is not impartial. You have yet to provide any evidence that anyone at CIA knew the WTC and Pentagon would be hit, when they would be hit, and that they took the action to allow the attacks to happen. Why would they do that? Let's say for fun that they knew they were going to hijack jumbo jets and fly them into buildings. Langley is an EASY target from the air and that meant that the guys making the decision to let the attacks happen were equally at risk of dying from an airborne strike and any other American on the east coast that morning. You like to pull Bojinka out of your third point of contact and CIA HQ was on the Bojinka target list. So what you're alleging is that these guys risked Al Qaeda crashing a 767 through their office window and were fine with it.

Okay.

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Your wrote: CIA officers often do not share intel outside of their groups.

But, this the testimony of Cofer Black, head of the CIA CTC, to the Joint Inquiry Committee and the 9/11 Commission stating:

“We , the CIA, are in the business of providing information to the FBI, and
not withholding it.”

Cofer disputes your statement, in testimony under oath made in a sworn statements to several US government public hearings.
Well, Cofer's a nice guy but he's full of crap. And of course he'd say that under oath, just like other CIA management have stated under oath that they didn't conduct torture of Al Qaeda prisoners.

Here's what is statement would look like in writing with annotations:

Quote:
“We , the CIA, are in the business of providing information to the FBI*, and
not withholding it**.
* However, we are not obligated to provide them information in a timely manner depending on the intelligence, nor are we obligated to pass along intelligence that they have not requested unless we determine it's in our best interest.

** We'll pass along everything eventually, your mileage may vary.
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Last edited by Axxman300; 15th September 2019 at 08:09 PM.
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Old 15th September 2019, 09:59 PM   #67
Redwood
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Quote:
Quote:
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The take over the highest management positions at the CIA by a criminal element, at the very the highest levels, who ordered that information on al Qaeda terrorists to be kept secret from the John O’Neill and his team of investigators at the New York office.

Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Do you have that memo?
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Old 15th September 2019, 10:08 PM   #68
Elagabalus
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Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
<<<<SNIP>>>>
As it happens, I've been going over your oeuvre here at the ISF. Nice copy paste from everything you've ever posted here, brah!! ***Scoff***
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