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Old 21st July 2019, 07:02 PM   #361
AJM8125
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Jason Ingersoll photos of the staged bridge-cab-pole scene, which caused so much trouble.
So where are the photos and videos which conclusively debunk Mr. Ingersoll's?

On a thumb drive making its way from The Outback?
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Old 21st July 2019, 07:05 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Flight 77’s damaged cockpit voice recorder.*[Source: FBI]
At around 3:40 a.m., investigators at the Pentagon recover the two “black boxes” from Flight 77.*[WASHINGTON TIMES, 9/14/2001]*These boxes are the plane’s flight data recorder and its cockpit voice recorder.*[BBC, 9/15/2001]*Some news reports claim they are found by two Fairfax County firefighters, Carlton Burkhammer and Brian Moravitz, as they comb through debris near the impact site.*[WASHINGTON POST, 9/19/2001;NEWSWEEK, 9/28/2001]*But according to Arlington County spokesman Dick Bridges, members of the FBI’s evidence response team find them.*[PBS, 9/14/2001;WASHINGTON POST, 9/14/2001]*Authors Patrick Creed and Rick Newman will later clarify that Burkhammer and Moravitz find an object initially believed to be one of the black boxes, but closer inspection reveals it to be just “a charred chunk of machinery.” Subsequently, FBI photographer Jennifer Hill finds the cockpit voice recorder in a stack of rubble while assisting searchers. Thirty minutes later, a National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) expert locates the flight data recorder in the same area.*[CREED AND NEWMAN, 2008, PP. 396-397 AND 400-402]*But Allyn Kilsheimer, a structural engineer who helps coordinate the emergency response at the Pentagon, later claims he had “found the black box,” which, he says, he had “stepped on… by accident.”*[GW MAGAZINE, 3/2002;*POPULAR MECHANICS, 3/2005]*Washington FBI agent Christopher Combs says, “Somebody almost threw [the black boxes] away because they didn’t know what they looked like.”*[DISASTER NEWS NETWORK, 10/30/2002]*
Conflicting Accounts of Where Boxes Are Found*- According to Dick Bridges, the two recorders are discovered “right where the plane came into the building.”*[ASSOCIATED PRESS, 9/14/2001]*But the American Society of Civil Engineers’ Pentagon Building Performance Report, released in 2003, will claim that the flight data recorder was found “nearly 300 ft into the structure.”*[MLAKAR ET AL., 1/2003, PP. 40*]In Creed and Newman’s account, the recorders are found in the Pentagon’s middle C Ring, near the “punch-out” hole made by the impacting aircraft.*[CREED AND NEWMAN, 2008, PP. 400-402]*
Boxes Taken Away for Analysis*- The boxes are taken to the NTSB’s laboratory in Washington, where data is extracted from the flight data recorder, but they are reclaimed by the FBI later on in the morning.*[WASHINGTON TIMES, 9/14/2001;*CREED AND NEWMAN, 2008, PP. 402]*A flight data recorder tracks an airplane’s flight movements for the last 25 hours, while the cockpit voice recorder contains radio transmissions and sounds from the cockpit for the last 30 minutes of its flight. Both are mounted in the tail of an aircraft and are encased in very strong materials like titanium. According to American Airlines and United Airlines, the black boxes aboard Flight 77 and the other hijacked planes were modern solid-state versions, which are more resistant to damage than older magnetic tape recorders.*[ASSOCIATED PRESS, 9/15/2001;*BBC, 9/15/2001]*FBI Director Robert Mueller later says that Flight 77’s data recorder has provided altitude, speed, and other information about the flight, but the voice recorder contained “nothing useful.”*[CBS NEWS, 2/25/2002]*The 9/11 Commission will describe the cockpit voice recorder as being “badly burned and not recoverable.”*[9/11 COMMISSION, 7/24/2004, PP. 456]*According to CBS News, preliminary information shows that the cockpit voice tape “appears to be blank or erased.”*[CBS NEWS, 9/16/2001]*The two black boxes from Flight 93 are also recovered around this time (see*September 13-14, 2001).

Entity Tags:*Brian Moravitz,*Carlton Burkhammer,*Allyn Kilsheimer,*Chris Combs,*Federal Bureau of Investigation,*Jennifer Hill,*RobertMoomo,*Dick Bridges

Timeline Tags:*Complete 911 Timeline,*9/11 Timeline
Would you care to summarize that copy & paste word salad or is this just another post of yours that can be binned?
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Old 21st July 2019, 07:56 PM   #363
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HOW CIT GOT LLOYDE'S STORY TRAGICALLY WRONG

Originally Posted by Redwood View Post
What I saw in the CIT videos from oh-so-long ago was an old man being bullied by a couple of young punks and I immediately sympathized with him.
This is, sadly, quite true.

But Lloyde was gracious and consistent in his responses to the haranguing he received from Aldo and Craig. He was confident that his story was true. He knew where he was, and he knew how it happened. He was unaware of other people's impressions of what had happened.

Lloyde never reacted against what was said about him by either the Official version believers, nor by those who claimed he was implicated in the crime. He just rose above it all, and ignored it, with great dignity. He constantly reiterated, in the face of Craig's unrelenting badgering that the photos showed his cab on the bridge, that he was THERE; he knew where he was WHEN IT HAPPENED.

26:18, Eye Of the Storm
Ranke: Now your car on the road, on the side of the road in this picture, was right HERE. (Points to bridge.)
Lloyde: No it wasn't.
Craig: Yeah we got pictures of it. Here it is.
Lloyde: My car is not there.
Craig: Nah, we got pictures of it.
Lloyde: No, my car was not there.
Craig: I can pull it up. I'll show you.
Lloyde: I don't care what you do. My car was at the Pentagon. My car was not across this bridge.
Craig: it was on this bridge. I'll show you the picture.
Lloyde: NO NO NO! My car was back here. (Points to cemetery retaining wall.) It was on Route, it was on 27.
Craig: I can pull up the picture. ... The car was right HERE.
Lloyde: No it wasn't.
Craig: This pole is Pole #1. It was right HERE.
Lloyde: No. This pole is beside the cemetery. The cemetery is OVER HERE.
Craig: The cemetery is yeah, it's over here.
Lloyde: THAT'S WHERE I WAS.

HERE, CRAIG VERY NEARLY "GETS IT":

Craig: All the poles that were down, if your car was over HERE (cemetery), IT WASN'T BY THE POLES, BECAUSE THE POLES are all right HERE (bridge).
THIS is the way they were, by that bridge.
Here's the first one.
This is the one they said went into your car.

Lloyde: THAT'S what THEY SAY. THAT'S NOT TRUE.
Craig: THAT'S the second one.
Lloyde: My car was down HERE (cemetery).
Craig: Well none of these poles were downed. They were all up in all the pictures.
Lloyde: REGARDLESS of what THEY SAY, I was THERE. I KNOW.
Craig: Well there's another picture of your car right HERE. That's where it was. So I can pull that up on the internet.
Lloyde: NO. NO. NO. Well the car is back HERE. I was driving it.

Lloyde then offered to take Craig there to show him exactly where the cab was at the time the pole hit it, and they drove past the cemetery wall twice, where Lloyde pointed out the precise spot.

Craig mocked Lloyde, and told him that there were no pictures taken of the cab there; they were all taken on the bridge.

However, what Craig did not know, was that lLoyde's cab WAS VIDEOED EXACTLY AT THAT LOCATION, WITH THE POLE STILL THROUGH THE WINDSHIELD, 7 minutes before Ingersoll took his first photograph of it on the bridge.

As they returned from the drive by the cemetery wall where the pole hit the cab, Lloyde's final words on The Eye of the Storm, were these:

Lloyde: These signs right HERE, where I was at. This is where the pictures were taken.
Craig: No they weren't!! There's no cobblestones there.
Lloyde: I'm telling you THAT'S WHERE I WAS.
Craig: There's no cobblestones.
Lloyde: THAT'S WHERE I WAS.
Craig: There ... Those... This is the sign that you see in the images. (Looking down to bridge.)
Lloyde: I understand but THAT'S WHERE I WAS.
Craig: These are the images of the VDOT pole, the VDOT camera pole, all of that. The cobblestone bridge. That's you. You're standing right next to it.
Lloyde: I don't have a problem with that I WAS NOT DOWN HERE.
Craig: See the cobblestone?
Lloyde: I WAS NOT HERE.
Craig: That's where you were.
Lloyde: I WAS NOT HERE.
Craig: No way. All the pictures show you there.
Lloyde: I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT.
Craig: They show YOU there. Not just your car but YOU.
Lloyde: I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT AND I'LL TELL YOU WHY IT WAS.

Craig tragically interrupts here, for the nth time, so now we will never know what Lloyde was going to say.

Craig: How does that work though? How can the, all the images ... ?

Lloyde: IT'S NOT MY JOB TO TELL YOU ALL THAT.
MY JOB IS TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH.

Lloyde told the truth.
He was not on the bridge when a pole was fired through his windshield.
That pole did not come from any light pole, and it was not hit by any plane.

After removing the pole from the windshield, Lloyde was " Run off from" his cab by the attending police officer, and Lloyde was shortly photographed and videoed far down Route 27, on his way home on foot.

Lloyde's cab was quickly removed from the cemetery wall, and relocated onto the bridge.

Rumsfeld then sent his bodyguard to retrieve Lloyde and drive him back to the cab where he, and the police detective who had earlier pushed Lloyde to the ground to force him to leave the cab, both supervised Lloyde while the incriminating photos were taken.
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Old 21st July 2019, 08:00 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
Would you care to summarize that copy & paste word salad or is this just another post of yours that can be binned?
Had I summarised it, you would now be accusing me of "cherrypicking" quotes, and of inventing things.

Do what you wish with that complete, verbatim, detailed, factual, referenced record of all the official reports of the finding of the black boxes from "AA77".

Keep your head in the sand if you wish.
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Old 21st July 2019, 08:43 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Keep your head in the sand if you wish.
Fair enough.

It surely doesn't require the contortions necessary to keep yours where it is.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 02:07 AM   #366
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What happened to the aircraft, passengers and crew if there wasn't a crash at the Pentagon?
Where did they go?
How did the bodies if the passengers and crew get in to the Pentagon?
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Old 22nd July 2019, 04:36 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by waypastvne View Post
Can you explain why one of the victims in the photos was wearing a Navy Command Centre ID, if the photo was taken in New York.



ID worn by the victim is on left. Sample ID on right for comparison.
Bump
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Old 22nd July 2019, 05:40 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
Three direct questions, Ruby:

First, do you accept that the WTC trusses contained structural steel angles? If not, please explain why those are shown in the diagrams and plans, including one you yourself referenced.

Second, please indicate where, in the photos you claim must have been taken in the WTC, rather than the Pentagon, structural steel angles are visible.

Third, please explain why, in one of the photos you claim must have been taken in the WTC, a victim is wearing the uniform of a US Navy commander or lieutenant commander, including a Pentagon identification badge.

Bump
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Old 22nd July 2019, 06:42 AM   #369
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Oh - we have conflicting news reports! Now that throws the official story out the window!

Next thing, we might find out there was a car bomb at the State Department, the North Tower was hit by a Cessna, a Delta Flight was hijacked, WTC7 collapsed before 5 p.m., and Norman Mineta was in the presidential bunker at 9:25 already - all as initially reported!
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Old 22nd July 2019, 07:15 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Oh - we have conflicting news reports! Now that throws the official story out the window!

Next thing, we might find out there was a car bomb at the State Department, the North Tower was hit by a Cessna, a Delta Flight was hijacked, WTC7 collapsed before 5 p.m., and Norman Mineta was in the presidential bunker at 9:25 already - all as initially reported!
Wait a moment, let me check the reports...….
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Old 22nd July 2019, 04:49 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Flight 77’s damaged cockpit voice recorder.*[Source: FBI]
At around 3:40 a.m., investigators at the Pentagon recover the two “black boxes” from Flight 77.*[WASHINGTON TIMES, 9/14/2001]*These boxes are the plane’s flight data recorder and its cockpit voice recorder.*[BBC, 9/15/2001]*Some news reports claim they are found by two Fairfax County firefighters, Carlton Burkhammer and Brian Moravitz, as they comb through debris near the impact site.*[WASHINGTON POST, 9/19/2001;NEWSWEEK, 9/28/2001]*But according to Arlington County spokesman Dick Bridges, members of the FBI’s evidence response team find them.*[PBS, 9/14/2001;WASHINGTON POST, 9/14/2001]*Authors Patrick Creed and Rick Newman will later clarify that Burkhammer and Moravitz find an object initially believed to be one of the black boxes, but closer inspection reveals it to be just “a charred chunk of machinery.” Subsequently, FBI photographer Jennifer Hill finds the cockpit voice recorder in a stack of rubble while assisting searchers. Thirty minutes later, a National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) expert locates the flight data recorder in the same area.*[CREED AND NEWMAN, 2008, PP. 396-397 AND 400-402]*But Allyn Kilsheimer, a structural engineer who helps coordinate the emergency response at the Pentagon, later claims he had “found the black box,” which, he says, he had “stepped on… by accident.”*[GW MAGAZINE, 3/2002;*POPULAR MECHANICS, 3/2005]*Washington FBI agent Christopher Combs says, “Somebody almost threw [the black boxes] away because they didn’t know what they looked like.”*[DISASTER NEWS NETWORK, 10/30/2002]*
Conflicting Accounts of Where Boxes Are Found*- According to Dick Bridges, the two recorders are discovered “right where the plane came into the building.”*[ASSOCIATED PRESS, 9/14/2001]*But the American Society of Civil Engineers’ Pentagon Building Performance Report, released in 2003, will claim that the flight data recorder was found “nearly 300 ft into the structure.”*[MLAKAR ET AL., 1/2003, PP. 40*]In Creed and Newman’s account, the recorders are found in the Pentagon’s middle C Ring, near the “punch-out” hole made by the impacting aircraft.*[CREED AND NEWMAN, 2008, PP. 400-402]*
Boxes Taken Away for Analysis*- The boxes are taken to the NTSB’s laboratory in Washington, where data is extracted from the flight data recorder, but they are reclaimed by the FBI later on in the morning.*[WASHINGTON TIMES, 9/14/2001;*CREED AND NEWMAN, 2008, PP. 402]*A flight data recorder tracks an airplane’s flight movements for the last 25 hours, while the cockpit voice recorder contains radio transmissions and sounds from the cockpit for the last 30 minutes of its flight. Both are mounted in the tail of an aircraft and are encased in very strong materials like titanium. According to American Airlines and United Airlines, the black boxes aboard Flight 77 and the other hijacked planes were modern solid-state versions, which are more resistant to damage than older magnetic tape recorders.*[ASSOCIATED PRESS, 9/15/2001;*BBC, 9/15/2001]*FBI Director Robert Mueller later says that Flight 77’s data recorder has provided altitude, speed, and other information about the flight, but the voice recorder contained “nothing useful.”*[CBS NEWS, 2/25/2002]*The 9/11 Commission will describe the cockpit voice recorder as being “badly burned and not recoverable.”*[9/11 COMMISSION, 7/24/2004, PP. 456]*According to CBS News, preliminary information shows that the cockpit voice tape “appears to be blank or erased.”*[CBS NEWS, 9/16/2001]*The two black boxes from Flight 93 are also recovered around this time (see*September 13-14, 2001).

Entity Tags:*Brian Moravitz,*Carlton Burkhammer,*Allyn Kilsheimer,*Chris Combs,*Federal Bureau of Investigation,*Jennifer Hill,*RobertMoomo,*Dick Bridges

Timeline Tags:*Complete 911 Timeline,*9/11 Timeline
I bet "they" (aka the evil doers you can't name) had a hard time decoding the “charred chunk of machinery.”

What was your point, you failed to read and comprehend? Good luck with Bigfoot, you can use the same evidence you use for the flyover - nothing but fantasy.


Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Had I summarised it, you would now be accusing me of "cherrypicking" quotes, and of inventing things.

Do what you wish with that complete, verbatim, detailed, factual, referenced record of all the official reports of the finding of the black boxes from "AA77".

Keep your head in the sand if you wish.
Yes, the FDR was found in the Pentagon, and it was decoded, and it proves it was 77, as does Radar, and DNA. Why are you unable to comprehend evidence that 77 impacted the Pentagon and Flight 77 Passengers were murdered at that instant. What happen to the Passengers who died at the Pentagon in the sick plot you can't explain. You google up http://www.historycommons.org/entity...dick_bridges_1 -

"Head in the sand", is projection, on a massive scale.
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Old 23rd July 2019, 09:22 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
I bet "they" (aka the evil doers you can't name) had a hard time decoding the “charred chunk of machinery.”

What was your point, you failed to read and comprehend? Good luck with Bigfoot, you can use the same evidence you use for the flyover - nothing but fantasy.


Yes, the FDR was found in the Pentagon, and it was decoded, and it proves it was 77, as does Radar, and DNA. Why are you unable to comprehend evidence that 77 impacted the Pentagon and Flight 77 Passengers were murdered at that instant. What happen to the Passengers who died at the Pentagon in the sick plot you can't explain. You google up http://www.historycommons.org/entity...dick_bridges_1 -

"Head in the sand", is projection, on a massive scale.
Denial is not a river in Egypt.
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Old 27th July 2019, 06:24 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
He was looking at the plane, not at the road. Picture yourself looking at a roaring plane unusually close to you that is crossing above you. You're going to follow it with your sight, aren't you?


That's his interpretation. It's not that unexpected, though. See this other plane crash.

http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgim...3MUUG_t400.jpg
Interesting photo. Where did this happen? It appears to be from a plane that taxied into a building, thus was neither airborne nor travelling at great speed.

Curious that you posted a photo of a plane that had crashed into a building at a similar angle to the wall as AA77 was claimed to have done.

Yet the wings did not "fold back" as Mike Walter claimed happened to AA77.

These wings broke off at some distance from the fuselage, then due to their forward momentum, continued forward and impacted the wall, causing great and recognisable damage, even though at low speed, unlike what was observed at the Pentagon.

The wing pieces bounced off the wall and remained outside the building, just as some 9/11 witnesses said they were expecting to have seen, but did not.

Let us not forget that on 9/11, Mike Walter said he WITNESSED THE PLANE IMPACT.

Then on morning TV on 9/12, he reneged on that, and stated that he was unable to see the impact, as there were trees blocking his view (which was demonstrably true).

It was 5 years later that, in response to much public speculation about his constantly morphing testimony, Mike Walter made the YouTube video explaining that what he actually saw, was "THE WINGS FOLDED BACK", and were thus able to completely disappear into the narrow gash in the building ... as big a lie as any of his others.

As your photo very clearly shows, when the fuselage hits a solid object, its forward momentum is considerably attenuated.

The wings shear off, and with the same unimpeded forward momentum, they will continue flying forwards until they impact the wall.

Thanks again for clarifying that Mike Walter was a lying witness.
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Old 28th July 2019, 10:20 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Interesting photo. Where did this happen? It appears to be from a plane that taxied into a building, thus was neither airborne nor travelling at great speed.

Curious that you posted a photo of a plane that had crashed into a building at a similar angle to the wall as AA77 was claimed to have done.

Yet the wings did not "fold back" as Mike Walter claimed happened to AA77.

These wings broke off at some distance from the fuselage, then due to their forward momentum, continued forward and impacted the wall, causing great and recognisable damage, even though at low speed, unlike what was observed at the Pentagon.

The wing pieces bounced off the wall and remained outside the building, just as some 9/11 witnesses said they were expecting to have seen, but did not.

Let us not forget that on 9/11, Mike Walter said he WITNESSED THE PLANE IMPACT.

Then on morning TV on 9/12, he reneged on that, and stated that he was unable to see the impact, as there were trees blocking his view (which was demonstrably true).

It was 5 years later that, in response to much public speculation about his constantly morphing testimony, Mike Walter made the YouTube video explaining that what he actually saw, was "THE WINGS FOLDED BACK", and were thus able to completely disappear into the narrow gash in the building ... as big a lie as any of his others.

As your photo very clearly shows, when the fuselage hits a solid object, its forward momentum is considerably attenuated.

The wings shear off, and with the same unimpeded forward momentum, they will continue flying forwards until they impact the wall.

Thanks again for clarifying that Mike Walter was a lying witness.

You witness an event once, unexpectedly and with a partially obstructed view, that lasts one fifth of a second. Who would expect you, or anyone, to observe and remember the mechanical details within that event accurately? One moment the wings were heading toward the wall at 777 feet per second, and the next moment they were gone from view. Unless you have a high-speed video camera or you're doing a detailed and accurate engineering simulation, rapid events like the wings folding back, crumpling up, or shearing off, are details the brain invents later to make sense of what you saw.

That's why we rely on the physical and documentary evidence. Radar, flight data recording, damage path, DNA. It's all there and it's all consistent.
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Old 28th July 2019, 10:36 AM   #375
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There is a difference between a low speed impact as in the picture and an impact at high speed.
Nothing would 'rebound'
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Old 28th July 2019, 11:12 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
Three direct questions, Ruby:

First, do you accept that the WTC trusses contained structural steel angles? If not, please explain why those are shown in the diagrams and plans, including one you yourself referenced.

Second, please indicate where, in the photos you claim must have been taken in the WTC, rather than the Pentagon, structural steel angles are visible.

Third, please explain why, in one of the photos you claim must have been taken in the WTC, a victim is wearing the uniform of a US Navy commander or lieutenant commander, including a Pentagon identification badge.

Bump.
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Old 28th July 2019, 11:58 AM   #377
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I found this picture of the Corridor 1-2 Apex at the Pentagon on 9/11

Pause for thought Ruby?



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Old 28th July 2019, 03:43 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by waypastvne View Post
Can you explain why one of the victims in the photos was wearing a Navy Command Centre ID, if the photo was taken in New York.



ID worn by the victim is on left. Sample ID on right for comparison.
Come on Ruby. Explain it to us.
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Old 28th July 2019, 04:50 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Interesting photo. Where did this happen? It appears to be from a plane that taxied into a building, thus was neither airborne nor travelling at great speed.
Teterboro, in 2005. https://aviation-safety.net/database...?id=20050202-0


Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
These wings broke off at some distance from the fuselage, then due to their forward momentum, continued forward and impacted the wall, causing great and recognisable damage, even though at low speed, unlike what was observed at the Pentagon.
Yes, that wall didn't seem to have reinforced concrete columns behind as the pentagon wall did. Walls of bricks are usually easy to break without a lot of force. They are sometimes demolished with just a sledgehammer.

But reinforced columns or not, as Captain Swoop has noted, the bigger the momentum, the more likely it is for the wings (or any object) to go through the wall. Throwing an empty soda can to a glass window will probably make it bounce; throwing a full can will probably make it break the glass.

Note that the wings of a 757, unlike those of a Learjet, also hold the engines and carry fuel, making them (a) sturdier and (b) much heavier (that doesn't apply to the region near the tip).

So, the part of the wings that had the engines and fuel went through the wall, and the tips of the wings, which were light and less resistant, may have folded or partially sheared and folded or totally sheared and still entered the building.


Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
The wing pieces bounced off the wall and remained outside the building, just as some 9/11 witnesses said they were expecting to have seen, but did not.
People are not used to an impact that powerful. The parts of the wings with the engines and the fuel broke the wall. The parts of the wings near the tips may have experienced what we see in the right wing of the Teterboro plane: a total shearing with inward rotation. Or just a partial shearing. Who knows.
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Old 29th July 2019, 10:42 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Interesting photo. Where did this happen? It appears to be from a plane that taxied into a building, thus was neither airborne nor travelling at great speed.

Curious that you posted a photo of a plane that had crashed into a building at a similar angle to the wall as AA77 was claimed to have done.

Yet the wings did not "fold back" as Mike Walter claimed happened to AA77.

These wings broke off at some distance from the fuselage, then due to their forward momentum, continued forward and impacted the wall, causing great and recognisable damage, even though at low speed, unlike what was observed at the Pentagon.

The wing pieces bounced off the wall and remained outside the building, just as some 9/11 witnesses said they were expecting to have seen, but did not.

Let us not forget that on 9/11, Mike Walter said he WITNESSED THE PLANE IMPACT.

Then on morning TV on 9/12, he reneged on that, and stated that he was unable to see the impact, as there were trees blocking his view (which was demonstrably true).

It was 5 years later that, in response to much public speculation about his constantly morphing testimony, Mike Walter made the YouTube video explaining that what he actually saw, was "THE WINGS FOLDED BACK", and were thus able to completely disappear into the narrow gash in the building ... as big a lie as any of his others.

As your photo very clearly shows, when the fuselage hits a solid object, its forward momentum is considerably attenuated.

The wings shear off, and with the same unimpeded forward momentum, they will continue flying forwards until they impact the wall.

Thanks again for clarifying that Mike Walter was a lying witness.
77 did hit the Pentagon, the wings hit the building, they don't fold back or up, they were traveling at 483.5 knots, and the entire plane hit the Pentagon in less than 0.2 second.

Math, physics, FDR, DNA, Radar and witnesses confirm 77 hit the Pentagon. Things you seem to ignore to have a sick fantasy. You can't name who did your fantasy, what happen to the passengers, or why you spread some of the dumbest lies on the Internet; your legacy of woo for all to see.

Sick fantasy - why do you lie?

Add physics to the list of things you can't do and comprehend.

The wing damage can be seen at the Pentagon, but you don't do evidence, you prefer lies.

You have no experience with witness statements with respect to aircraft accidents/and in this case a crime committed by 19 idiots, associates of UBL. 19 terrorists you apologize for by spreading idiotic lies.

I thought 19 terrorists were gullible, and so are 9/11 truth/you who spread lies based on wild speculation and ignorance.

oops, wing marks from 77 on the Pentagon?
https://www.google.com/search?q=ruin...HKUfL19Kf5ljM:

Where is your evidence? Right, fantasy requires no evidence. (fail interpretation of witness statements is not evidence)
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Old 30th July 2019, 03:17 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by CompusMentus View Post
I found this picture of the Corridor 1-2 Apex at the Pentagon on 9/11

Pause for thought Ruby?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...deff070053.jpg

Compus
If you have a point, why don't you make it?

This photo just proves exactly what I said, that Dennis Smith was standing on the ground inside the centre court between some large trees and below the 77 foot height of the roof, with 630 feet of cross section of the building between his position and the closest view from the west wall, of the approaching plane.

I've thought about it, and there is still absolutely no line of sight between Dennis Smith and the plane at any point.
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Old 30th July 2019, 03:39 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
I've thought about it, and there is still absolutely no line of sight between Dennis Smith and the plane at any point.
Unless, of course, the plane had flown over the Pentagon, in which case Dennis Smith could not possibly have failed to notice it, his attention drawn by the ear-shattering roar of the engines at full throttle as the pilot pulled the plane out of its dive. Yet, strangely, he never mentions this, surely the most obvious observation he can possibly have made on that day. We can only conclude from this omission that the required events never happened, and that therefore Flight 77 struck the Pentagon.

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Old 30th July 2019, 04:27 AM   #383
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Not just Smith, everyone would have seen the aircraft fly over and off in to the distance.
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Old 30th July 2019, 08:06 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
If you have a point, why don't you make it?

This photo just proves exactly what I said, that Dennis Smith was standing on the ground inside the centre court between some large trees and below the 77 foot height of the roof.....

Where did you get this information? Please elaborate. How on earth does the photo prove what you state above?

The only facts I can find about this mans position at the time of the plane crash is the below from the interview with him that I posted previously:-

Originally Posted by Dennis Smith
When it happened, I was standing at the 1 and 2 Corridor apex, which gave me a clear view.

I welcome correction but from the photo it appears to me that the entrance/exit from the C1 & C2 Apex is situated in an elevated position above the main centre court area. You can see the sign indicating the Apex doors (behind where the guy in the hi-viz jacket is standing)





Perhaps someone who better knows the relevant layout of the Pentagon at that time can confirm or falsify my suspicions about this?

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Old 30th July 2019, 08:17 AM   #385
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Ruby can you please answer the question I asked (post #273)


From that Dennis Smith transcript I presented (see post #268)


Originally Posted by Dennis Smith
I noticed that the nose gear of the plane had gone through the wall on the A&E drive and a tire and part of the front stem of the plane were sitting there.

Ruby, how did these remnants of an aircraft get to where Smith saw them? Within a very short time of the plane crashing?

Have you read that transcript? Do you have any further thoughts on this mans testimony there?


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Old 30th July 2019, 12:50 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
If you have a point, why don't you make it?

This photo just proves exactly what I said, that Dennis Smith was standing on the ground inside the centre court between some large trees and below the 77 foot height of the roof, with 630 feet of cross section of the building between his position and the closest view from the west wall, of the approaching plane.

I've thought about it, and there is still absolutely no line of sight between Dennis Smith and the plane at any point.
Flight 77's FDR found in Pentagon beats all your failed assessment.

Radar beats all your lies about the Pentagon.

Cherry picking witness statements makes your claims dumber.

This is some of the dumbest stuff about 9/11:
Quote:
Posted by Ruby Gray The fact that Lloyde England's cab was the subject of a sophisticated, premeditated plot carried out with military precision to a tight time schedule in front of (or in fact behind) all the witnesses at the Pentagon between 9:37:46 and 9:44 a.m., is the new solid gold evidence proving that 9/11 was a black operation. Operatives at the highest levels are identified on these videos as they performed their parts in the scheme.
Paranoia produces fantasy, based on complete ignorance of FDR, Radar, and physics.
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Old 30th July 2019, 05:10 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by CompusMentus View Post
Where did you get this information? Please elaborate. How on earth does the photo prove what you state above?
I wonder the same.


Originally Posted by CompusMentus View Post
I welcome correction but from the photo it appears to me that the entrance/exit from the C1 & C2 Apex is situated in an elevated position above the main centre court area. You can see the sign indicating the Apex doors (behind where the guy in the hi-viz jacket is standing)
I don't infer that. To me the apex is the general area, so Mr. Smith's statement is a bit unspecific. He could well be at the top of that structure, also pictured here:



Which is why I asked her this (and unsurprisingly, got no answer):
Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
I've tried to confirm your story that he was at ground level, but I couldn't. Could you provide some citation?
[ETA:] In the end, it doesn't matter whether he actually saw the tail or just thought he did; what matters is that he didn't see the plane flying over, as Dave Rogers has repeatedly noted (and ignored by rubygray as expected).


By the way, here's a rough fisheye correction of the picture you've posted:


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Old 1st August 2019, 06:10 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
I wonder the same.
I don't infer that. To me the apex is the general area, so Mr. Smith's statement is a bit unspecific. He could well be at the top of that structure.....

I agree entirely, but Ruby deliberately chooses to ignore such possibilities and instead continues to rely on pure supposition and very dubious, convoluted interpretation of badly reproduced photos/video clips.

Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
[ETA:] In the end, it doesn't matter whether he actually saw the tail or just thought he did; what matters is that he didn't see the plane flying over, as Dave Rogers has repeatedly noted (and ignored by rubygray as expected).

Again I can only wholeheartedly agree. How could Dennis Smith ever fail to see or mention such a sight as that huge screaming aircraft skimming the rooftop only 10's of feet above???


Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
By the way, here's a rough fisheye correction of the picture you've posted:

http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgim...correction.jpg

Thanks for that pgimeno. From that pic I estimate that the entrance/exit to the C1-C2 Apex is at least 15' above the main centre court area.

I still assert that the likelihood remains that Mr Smith ("I was standing at the 1 and 2 Corridor apex,") may well have been standing on that verandah and possibly able to see parts of the aircraft as it impacted.

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Old 1st August 2019, 05:49 PM   #389
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What desperate codswallop you lot do indulge in.

Dennis Smith clearly stated that he WENT OUTSIDE INTO THE COURTYARD, AT THE CORRIDOR 1&2 APEX.

He was standing on ground level.

From this position - and indeed as I demonstrated with scale diagrams - even if he was at ANY OTHER LOCATION IN THE COURTYARD - Dennis Smith had ABSOLUTELY NO VIEW OF THE TAIL OF THE APPROACHING PLANE, which he said that he saw, SEVERAL SECONDS BEFORE THE IMPACT.

Whatever he saw, it was NOT THE TAIL OF THE PLANE ON ITS APPROACH TO THE WEST WALL.
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Old 1st August 2019, 06:07 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by CompusMentus View Post
I welcome correction but from the photo it appears to me that the entrance/exit from the C1 & C2 Apex is situated in an elevated position above the main centre court area. You can see the sign indicating the Apex doors (behind where the guy in the hi-viz jacket is standing)

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...deff070053.jpg

Perhaps someone who better knows the relevant layout of the Pentagon at that time can confirm or falsify my suspicions about this?

Compus
There is a blue sign on top of the porch which merely says,
"CORRIDORS 1 & 2".

That is the obvious place to have such helpful signs, since there are many shrubs and obstructions inside the courtyard.
Stairs ascend each side from ground level to the rooftop of this porch, which probably is somewhere that people use on breaks. There is what appears to be a large FIXED WINDOW behind the man in the yellow vest. This is NOT necessarily an exit from the building.

Dennis Smith was VERY EXPLICIT as to his location.

"AT THE APEX" means, at the point where the two corridors meet, which is that large doorway on ground level.

"OUTSIDE" means, in the open air; not standing inside the building.

Please go back to my scale diagrams, and draw in your idea of the location meeting Smith's specific criteria, from which you imagine he had any view at all of the tail of the approaching plane.

Beachnut is the one who first suggested 4 seconds or 3,200 feet from impact, so that is the figure I used.
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Old 1st August 2019, 06:25 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Unless, of course, the plane had flown over the Pentagon, in which case Dennis Smith could not possibly have failed to notice it, his attention drawn by the ear-shattering roar of the engines at full throttle as the pilot pulled the plane out of its dive. Yet, strangely, he never mentions this, surely the most obvious observation he can possibly have made on that day. We can only conclude from this omission that the required events never happened, and that therefore Flight 77 struck the Pentagon.

Dave
Michael Kelly was one of the very first eyewitnesses interviewed on TV, at about 20 minutes after impact.

He was clearly in shock about what he witnessed. I have never seen any subsequent statement from him, after he had time to digest the events he saw.

He was travelling east on I-395, about to drive onto the 14th Street Bridge, when a plane flew over his car, VERY VERY LOW, VERY SLOW, and SOUNDING LIKE A SMALL PLANE.

No screaming jets at high speed.

He THEN heard the impact BEHIND HIM.
He looked BACK and saw the fireball and smoke rising from the OTHER SIDE of the Pentagon.

He stated that it was the plane which flew over his car, that hit the Pentagon.

This was obviously very confusing for him, as a few minutes' thought would prove that to have been impossible.

The only suggestion that makes sense of Michael Kelly's incredulous statement, is

* that the plane actually FLEW OVER the Pentagon,
* perhaps 2 seconds before the explosion,
* that it was travelling much more slowly than "official" data claims, and
* that it had cut way back on the throttle.

If Michael Kelly ever made another witness statement along these lines after he had watched the news footage and tried to rationalise that with what he saw, then it must have been suppressed, for obvious reasons.

Michael Kelly is not the only motorist on I-395 to have witnessed this.
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Old 1st August 2019, 07:51 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by waypastvne View Post
Can you explain why one of the victims in the photos was wearing a Navy Command Centre ID, if the photo was taken in New York.



ID worn by the victim is on left. Sample ID on right for comparison.

Come on Ruby, be a good Sheila and give us a fair dinkum answer to the quessie.
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Old 1st August 2019, 08:35 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
What desperate codswallop you lot do indulge in.
Flight 77's FDR was found in the Pentagon, on exactly the course 77 was flying - thus the desperate codswallop is your need to use Smith as a witness. You have failed.

Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Dennis Smith clearly stated that he WENT OUTSIDE INTO THE COURTYARD, AT THE CORRIDOR 1&2 APEX.
You are saying he lied, thus you have refuted his statement. You can't use it. Radar proves it was 77 hitting the Pentagon.

Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
He was standing on ground level.
You are calling him a liar, and don't know this is a fact. Again, the DNA from all the Passengers was found on the path found in the FDR, and the damage to the Pentagon is exactly what a 757 going 483.5 knots would do. If you had a practical knowledge of Physics, you would realize 77 hit the Pentagon. You are debunked, and continue to use a single witness for your fantasy you can't explain.

Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
From this position - and indeed as I demonstrated with scale diagrams - even if he was at ANY OTHER LOCATION IN THE COURTYARD - Dennis Smith had ABSOLUTELY NO VIEW OF THE TAIL OF THE APPROACHING PLANE, which he said that he saw, SEVERAL SECONDS BEFORE THE IMPACT.
FDR from 77 found in the Pentagon - you lost this one, again

Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Whatever he saw, it was NOT THE TAIL OF THE PLANE ON ITS APPROACH TO THE WEST WALL.
It does not matter, you failed. Why? FDR, DNA, Radar prove 77 hit the Pentagon.

You have no evidence for your lies. Big failure, and like CIT, no investigation skills.
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Old 1st August 2019, 11:17 PM   #394
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What happened to thepassengers and crew?
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Old 2nd August 2019, 01:01 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Michael Kelly was one of the very first eyewitnesses interviewed on TV, at about 20 minutes after impact.

He was clearly in shock about what he witnessed. I have never seen any subsequent statement from him, after he had time to digest the events he saw.
So you're going to assume that his testimony is an accurate and precise account of what actually happened, rather than the confused recollections of someone still in shock and not having had time to fully process events, despite the well-known principle that witness accounts are in general terms one of the most unreliable forms of evidence. And you're using this to evade the question: if AA77 flew over the Pentagon, pulling up from its dive and therefore needing the engines at full throttle, how could Dennis Smith have failed to notice it flying over his head with an earth-shattering roar? It's as if you were claiming he'd been punched by Mike Tyson but hadn't noticed it.

Dave
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Old 2nd August 2019, 03:30 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
Three direct questions, Ruby:

First, do you accept that the WTC trusses contained structural steel angles? If not, please explain why those are shown in the diagrams and plans, including one you yourself referenced.

Second, please indicate where, in the photos you claim must have been taken in the WTC, rather than the Pentagon, structural steel angles are visible.

Third, please explain why, in one of the photos you claim must have been taken in the WTC, a victim is wearing the uniform of a US Navy commander or lieutenant commander, including a Pentagon identification badge.

Bump.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 04:53 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
There is what appears to be a large FIXED WINDOW behind the man in the yellow vest. This is NOT necessarily an exit from the building.

It seems much more likely that your "fixed window" is an exit door from C1-C2 Apex.

Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Dennis Smith was VERY EXPLICIT as to his location.
"AT THE APEX" means, at the point where the two corridors meet, which is that large doorway on ground level.

That "large doorway" is the access road to the A & E drive! I insist that the C1 & C2 Apex exit/entrance is above and behind the sign on the verandah. I await proof otherwise.

Nowhere in Mr Smiths testimony does he state he was at ground level in the centre courtyard. He was far from "very explicit", rather the opposite and quite vague about his position when he witnessed the jet impact.


Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Please go back to my scale diagrams, and draw in your idea of the location meeting Smith's specific criteria, from which you imagine he had any view at all of the tail of the approaching plane.

Mr Smith does not state he saw the tail of the "approaching plane" he said that he saw the "tail of the plane come up" and an "instantaneous flash". This infers that the former more or less occured at the same time as the latter.



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Old 2nd August 2019, 04:57 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by CompusMentus View Post
From that Dennis Smith transcript I presented (see post #268)

Originally Posted by Dennis Smith Oral History
I noticed that the nose gear of the plane had gone through the wall on the A&E drive and a tire and part of the front stem of the plane were sitting there.

Ruby, how did these remnants of an aircraft get to where Smith saw them? Within a very short time of the plane crashing?

Have you read that transcript? Do you have any further thoughts on this mans testimony there?


Compus

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Old 2nd August 2019, 05:41 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Dennis Smith clearly stated that he WENT OUTSIDE INTO THE COURTYARD, AT THE CORRIDOR 1&2 APEX.
That's a lie, rubygray. Dennis Smith said he went outside. At no point did he say "into the courtyard." You're making stuff up and trying to sneak it through as evidence for your theory, when in fact it's not part of the original evidence.

Dave
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Old 2nd August 2019, 06:54 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Michael Kelly was one of the very first eyewitnesses interviewed on TV, at about 20 minutes after impact.

He was clearly in shock about what he witnessed. I have never seen any subsequent statement from him, after he had time to digest the events he saw.

He was travelling east on I-395, about to drive onto the 14th Street Bridge, when a plane flew over his car, VERY VERY LOW, VERY SLOW, and SOUNDING LIKE A SMALL PLANE.

No screaming jets at high speed.
How do you reconcile that with Dennis Smith's statement?
I went outside and was talking to some contractors. All of a sudden we heard engines, not the normal sound for the planes overhead. When I was in the Marines I was in the Air Wing and I am used to the sound of the engines. This one had the pedal to the metal and was coming in fast. We turned around and saw the upright part of the tail, and then it hit.

Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
The only suggestion that makes sense of Michael Kelly's incredulous statement, is

* that the plane actually FLEW OVER the Pentagon,
How do you reconcile that with Dennis Smith not seeing a plane fly over, if it was in the trajectory of the courtyard?

My explanation is that Michael Kelly missed the roaring of the plane due probably to two factors: the shock, and the sound isolation of his car; additionally, that the plane did hit the Pentagon and did not fly over, otherwise Mr. Smith would have reported that.

What's yours?
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