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Old 18th July 2019, 09:12 PM   #321
rubygray
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Originally Posted by waypastvne View Post
Quick question Ruby.

When you were studying that photo taken at the Pentagon.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...b507e287c5.jpg


Did you happen to notice this?


https://i.imgur.com/3yaA5GB.jpg
Well golly gee, doesn't that look like pieces of aircraft skin inside one of the Twin Towers!

Or are you suggesting that no planes flew into the Twin Towers?

Last edited by rubygray; 18th July 2019 at 09:29 PM. Reason: Corrected predictive texting
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Old 18th July 2019, 09:27 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by The Common Potato View Post
The CIT team (arggh) and rubygray maintain that witnesses who see a plane, an explosion, but not the actual impact can be discounted. Earlier today I took a quick pic from my sofa - had to force myself to stop watching the excellent television programme.

My living room has three windows. Now and again a delivery van drives past. My view of the van is obscured for a fraction of a second by the walls between the windows. Using CIT / rubygray logic it is quite unreasonable of me to assume that my views of the van through windows 1, 2 and 3 are in fact of the same van.

It that simple enough or should I consider that BT, Morrisons, etc are all part of the delivery Illuminati?
Apparently you have never seen photos, maps and plans of the Pentagon.

To parallel Dennis Smith's position inside the inner courtyard of the Pentagon, where he was at the Corridor 1&2 Apex, with the walls next to him towering 77 feet high above ground level, and large trees around him, and fully 630 feet thickness of the 5 rings of Pentagon masonry between him and the view of the approaching plane from the western face of the Pentagon ...

... with your unobstructed view outside through windows in the wall of a single room of your house ...

... is just preposterous.

Dennis Smith ABSOLUTELY COULD NOT SEE THE PLANE APPROACHING.

He may very well have seen something else, which he later construed in his mind, to have been the vertical stabilizer of the plane, "coming down".

I tend to believe that this is the case, rather than to assume that he was lying.

He saw something, but NOT the tail of the plane on its approach.
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Old 18th July 2019, 10:30 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
When will you be admitting that those two photos are of 3 bodies of office workers killed inside the towers in New York?
Those bodies are wearing US Army uniforms. They were in the Pentagon.
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Old 18th July 2019, 10:33 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Using Dennis Smith's evidence debunks YOUR fairytale about those flight 93 passengers storming the cabin to overpower the "hijackers".

Dennis Smith stated in that lengthy testimony on October 29 2001,

"I saw that F-16 up there fully loaded, and I was like "YES! It's all cool now." My personal opinion is that they took out the one in Pennsylvania. There were two of them here. You could hear the command centres all over, "We have another inbound," and those two shot out of here like bats and went north. They were gone. It doesn't take any time to get to Pennsylvania in one of those. There are no tollgates. Plus, when a plane goes down, it's big, and the debris is around a mile, NOT SIX MILES. That's my opinion. I THINK THE ONLY REASON THEY ARE NOT SAYING ANYTHING IS BECAUSE EVERYBODY HAD BEEN CALLED ON THE CELLPHONES ABOUT DOING SOMETHING, AND NOBODY IS GOING TO DISPUTE THEM. SO WHY NOT JUST THINK EVERYBODY WAS A HERO. IF IT WAS ME, I WOULD LET THEM THINK THAT, TOO."
Here's the thing, lady, every air-to-air missile is accounted for. Every fighter that launched on 9-11 returned will all of their weapons.

That is a fact.

We have the cockpit recordings from UA93 and the passengers can be heard breaking the door down.

You fail.
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Old 18th July 2019, 10:34 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Everybody is still waiting for the first flight path personally drawn on a map signed by a witness who can prove their location at 9:37 a.m., who saw the plane fly across the bridge.

Or even for the first recorded testimony of any such witness who claims to have seen the plane fly south of Columbia Pike, on the south side of the Navy Annex and diagonally across the bridge.
We don't need this.

We have:

The Radar track.

The Flight Data Recorder

The airplane and the dead passengers.

You have jack.
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Old 19th July 2019, 02:04 AM   #326
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What happened to the aircraft, it's crew and passengers?
Where did it go after it flew over the Pentagon?
Why didn't anyone see it after the moment it flew over?
How did parts from the aircraft get in to the pentagon?
How did the bodies of the passengers and crew get in to the Pentagon?
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Old 19th July 2019, 02:16 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Dennis Smith ABSOLUTELY COULD NOT SEE THE PLANE APPROACHING.

He may very well have seen something else, which he later construed in his mind, to have been the vertical stabilizer of the plane, "coming down".

I tend to believe that this is the case, rather than to assume that he was lying.

He saw something, but NOT the tail of the plane on its approach.
The above, of course, is a perfect reconciliation of Dennis Smith's testimony with all that's known about flight 77's path; he saw something which he thought to be the tail of the plane, then heard the plane hit the Pentagon. But if the plane had flown over the Pentagon, he ABSOLUTELY WOULD HAVE SEEN AND HEARD IT FLY OVER, and if he'd seen and heard that then he ABSOLUTELY WOULD HAVE REPORTED IT. But he didn't.

Dave
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Old 19th July 2019, 02:20 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Using Dennis Smith's evidence debunks YOUR fairytale about those flight 93 passengers storming the cabin to overpower the "hijackers".
Well, no, it does nothing of the sort.

Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Dennis Smith stated in that lengthy testimony on October 29 2001,

[...]My personal opinion is [...]
So he's not exactly presenting facts there.

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Old 19th July 2019, 04:17 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
When will you be admitting that those two photos are of 3 bodies of office workers killed inside the towers in New York?
Can you explain why one of the victims in the photos was wearing a Navy Command Centre ID, if the photo was taken in New York.



ID worn by the victim is on left. Sample ID on right for comparison.
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Old 19th July 2019, 07:55 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Obviously, the wings would not, and could not, "fold back".

If a plane flies into a solid object with such force that its wings shear off, the forward velocity of the fuselage decreases, but the wings will continue forwards with the same velocity.
Magic wings, maybe. Real wings won't. On a front impact, if the wings shear off, the total kinetic energy of the wings will be decreased by the energy required to shear them off, which implies an average decrease in velocity. On a side impact, the wing that hits first may shear, or it may fold, or both, or a part may shear while a different part folds.

In both the WTC and the Pentagon the wing tips did not break the walls; in my opinion they most probably folded or sheared and folded (because the only alternative is that they completely sheared off and bounced, and that doesn't appear to be the case). But the thicker part of the wings, which had the fuel and the engines, had enough KE to break through the walls (columns in the case of WTC).

This is proven by the fact that in both the WTC and the Pentagon case, the holes are smaller than the wingspan of a 767 (757 in the Pentagon).

In one of the videos of the WTC (I think it was the Evan Fairbanks one but I can't tell for sure until I review them) in one frame the wing tips appear slightly folded back.


Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
This excuse is just another fib dreamed up by Mike Walter, who said on 9/11 that he absolutely saw the plane hit the lightpoles and the Pentagon, but on 9/12 he stated that he could not see the impact due to trees blocking his view (which was the truth).
I don't see any contradiction there. He may have seen the plane hit the poles and not the impact. In fact, he may have said he saw the impact, referring to the explosion or the smoke, and that's not even a fib, that's just an imprecise description.
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Old 19th July 2019, 07:59 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Where in the world did you get the idea that anyone was on the roof?????
I've tried to confirm your story that he was at ground level, but I couldn't. Could you provide some citation?
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Old 19th July 2019, 08:03 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Dennis Smith stated in that lengthy testimony on October 29 2001,

"I saw that F-16 up there fully loaded, and I was like "YES! It's all cool now." My personal opinion is that they took out the one in Pennsylvania. There were two of them here. You could hear the command centres all over, "We have another inbound," and those two shot out of here like bats and went north. They were gone. It doesn't take any time to get to Pennsylvania in one of those. There are no tollgates. Plus, when a plane goes down, it's big, and the debris is around a mile, NOT SIX MILES. That's my opinion. I THINK THE ONLY REASON THEY ARE NOT SAYING ANYTHING IS BECAUSE EVERYBODY HAD BEEN CALLED ON THE CELLPHONES ABOUT DOING SOMETHING, AND NOBODY IS GOING TO DISPUTE THEM. SO WHY NOT JUST THINK EVERYBODY WAS A HERO. IF IT WAS ME, I WOULD LET THEM THINK THAT, TOO."
Relevant part highlighted.

If he was right, and we know he wasn't, but if he was, that would mean the military were very efficient and prevented another attack, but they were covering up their asses. He would again disprove any kind of "inside job".
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Old 19th July 2019, 08:26 AM   #333
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lies mount up, using witnesses who debunk the overall claim

Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Apparently you have never seen photos, maps and plans of the Pentagon.

To parallel Dennis Smith's position inside the inner courtyard of the Pentagon, where he was at the Corridor 1&2 Apex, with the walls next to him towering 77 feet high above ground level, and large trees around him, and fully 630 feet thickness of the 5 rings of Pentagon masonry between him and the view of the approaching plane from the western face of the Pentagon ...

... with your unobstructed view outside through windows in the wall of a single room of your house ...

... is just preposterous.

Dennis Smith ABSOLUTELY COULD NOT SEE THE PLANE APPROACHING.

He may very well have seen something else, which he later construed in his mind, to have been the vertical stabilizer of the plane, "coming down".

I tend to believe that this is the case, rather than to assume that he was lying.

He saw something, but NOT the tail of the plane on its approach.
Flt 77 FDR found in the Pentagon.
Multiple Radar sites tracked Flt 77 from takeoff to impact.
DNA from all Passengers in Flt 77 found in the Pentagon along the impact path found in the FDR.

You can quibble about Smith forever, and you are still debunked 18 years ago. Apologizing for 19 failed humans who murdered thousands on 9/11 by making up idiotic claims based on ignorance.

Why do you spread sick lies about 9/11?

Wow, and this takes the award for making up failed conclusions.

Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Using Dennis Smith's evidence debunks YOUR fairytale about those flight 93 passengers storming the cabin to overpower the "hijackers".

Dennis Smith stated in that lengthy testimony on October 29 2001,

"I saw that F-16 up there fully loaded, and I was like "YES! It's all cool now." My personal opinion is that they took out the one in Pennsylvania. There were two of them here. You could hear the command centres all over, "We have another inbound," and those two shot out of here like bats and went north. They were gone. It doesn't take any time to get to Pennsylvania in one of those. There are no tollgates. Plus, when a plane goes down, it's big, and the debris is around a mile, NOT SIX MILES. That's my opinion. I THINK THE ONLY REASON THEY ARE NOT SAYING ANYTHING IS BECAUSE EVERYBODY HAD BEEN CALLED ON THE CELLPHONES ABOUT DOING SOMETHING, AND NOBODY IS GOING TO DISPUTE THEM. SO WHY NOT JUST THINK EVERYBODY WAS A HERO. IF IT WAS ME, I WOULD LET THEM THINK THAT, TOO."
Flight 93 Passengers did attack the cockpit, because they figured out 9/11 before you made up your first lie based on fantasy.

No, there were no missiles shot at airplanes on 9/11.

FDR strikes again and shoots down your fantasy. Wait, you said there are no planes, thus, Smith debunks you. Flight 93's FDR shows no damage to systems at impact in PA. 93's FDR shows pilot inputs flew the plane into the ground. Thus you and Smith are debunked, and using Smith is dumber than dirt when you can't debunk FDRs and Radar. And have no clue DNA makes your claims lies.

You have no clue if you use witnesses who say 77 hit the Pentagon, or suspect 93 was shot down, you debunk your fantasy. You are self debunking, and have no clue.

Wow, someone suspects something, and you use a guess as evidence?

Did Smith see a part of the plane pop up over the roof. The video shows some debris fly up as if it was ejected to the roof.

How many lies have you spread?
The photos of bodies in the Pentagon, were in the Pentagon - you lied and said WTC - why do you lie?

You say 77 did not impact, Smith said it did - you might want to drop Smith.

Now you say 93 was shot down, yet you are saying there are no planes, no victims - and it boils down to nonsense you made up.
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Old 19th July 2019, 09:57 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
What happened to the aircraft, it's crew and passengers?
Where did it go after it flew over the Pentagon?
Why didn't anyone see it after the moment it flew over?
How did parts from the aircraft get in to the pentagon?
How did the bodies of the passengers and crew get in to the Pentagon?
Question she will never answer, because her answer has no physical evidence to back her claims, just wild incorrect beliefs.
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Old 19th July 2019, 10:05 AM   #335
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She must have some ideas as to what happened to the aircraft or why no one saw it fly over or land anywhere?
She must wonder what happened to the passengers and crew.
Were they killed after the aircraft landed?
Were they aboard at all?
Maybe they were killed earlier and their bodies planted in the pentagon ready to be found.
Surely there must be some curiosity?
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Old 19th July 2019, 04:53 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
When will you be admitting that those two photos are of 3 bodies of office workers killed inside the towers in New York?

Why would I need to admit that? We've shown that your claim about the photos' showing WTC floor trusses is demonstrably incorrect, so what evidence do you have?
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Old 19th July 2019, 06:09 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by waypastvne View Post
Can you explain why one of the victims in the photos was wearing a Navy Command Centre ID, if the photo was taken in New York.

https://i.imgur.com/QzMyThW.jpg

ID worn by the victim is on left. Sample ID on right for comparison.

Additionally, the victim has an oak leaf on his collar, the rank insignia of a commander (silver), or lieutenant commander (gold). Four officers of those ranks died in the NCC, including CDR Patrick Dunn, whose ID is pictured. Personally I think the oak leaf looks more like gold than silver, but of course that could be due to the lighting, and/or discoloration from the fire. The fact that he's wearing a khaki uniform (plus the ID badge, of course) shows that he's a military officer, and not a deputy police inspector or fire battalion commander or chief.
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Old 19th July 2019, 06:30 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
We don't need this.

We have:

The Radar track.

The Flight Data Recorder

The airplane and the dead passengers.

You have jack.
No, we DO NEED THIS!

If the Official Fairy Tale is true, then it should be a piece of cake to get your 104 witnesses to draw in their locations on overhead projections, relative to the flight path they witnessed, and the impact they saw ... signed, on video.

But it is YOU who has zilch.

There is not one single such piece of evidence.
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Old 19th July 2019, 07:07 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Here's the thing, lady, every air-to-air missile is accounted for. Every fighter that launched on 9-11 returned will all of their weapons.

That is a fact.

We have the cockpit recordings from UA93 and the passengers can be heard breaking the door down.

You fail.
Hmm nope, it must be your x-ray vision witness, loyal long-time Pentagon employee Dennis Smith, who fails.

I merely quoted his own words.
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Old 19th July 2019, 07:11 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
Why would I need to admit that? We've shown that your claim about the photos' showing WTC floor trusses is demonstrably incorrect, so what evidence do you have?
You have done no such thing.

What you need to explain is, why and where and when was the 1940s-era traditionally built Pentagon structure retrofitted with the identical floor truss and corrugated floorpans- concrete floor form of building construction as was used decades later in the Twin Towers.
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Old 19th July 2019, 07:37 PM   #341
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FORTUITOUS SPARE BLACK BOX/ES CARRIED BY AA77

To which of the THREE or FOUR FDRrs found at the Pentagon, do you keep referring?

To the BLACK BOX found by Allyn E. Kilsheimer, CEO of KCR Structural Engineers PC, Washington, DC.,

OR

To the TWO BLACK BOXES found just before 4 a.m. on Friday 14th September by firefighters Burkhammer and Brian Moravitz, near the impact site on the E ring ... as confirmed by an FBI agent and an official from the NTSB ...

OR

To the BLACK BOX found, according to The ASCE Building Performance Report, and as reported in a book published by the DOD, at the exit hole in the C-Ring?

Would that be 3 FDRs found?

Or maybe even 4 FDRs!

No wonder you have so much evidence to support your story!

The plane was carrying at least one spare black box, just in case the 2 standard issue FDRs were not recovered.
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Old 19th July 2019, 07:42 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
To which of the THREE or FOUR FDRrs found at the Pentagon, do you keep referring?

To the BLACK BOX found by Allyn E. Kilsheimer, CEO of KCR Structural Engineers PC, Washington, DC.,

OR

To the TWO BLACK BOXES found just before 4 a.m. on Friday 14th September by firefighters Burkhammer and Brian Moravitz, near the impact site on the E ring ... as confirmed by an FBI agent and an official from the NTSB ...

OR

To the BLACK BOX found, according to The ASCE Building Performance Report, and as reported in a book published by the DOD, at the exit hole in the C-Ring?

Would that be 3 FDRs found?

Or maybe even 4 FDRs!

No wonder you have so much evidence to support your story!

The plane was carrying at least one spare black box, just in case the 2 standard issue FDRs were not recovered.
Show your evidence.
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Old 19th July 2019, 07:51 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
You have done no such thing.

What you need to explain is, why and where and when was the 1940s-era traditionally built Pentagon structure retrofitted with the identical floor truss and corrugated floorpans- concrete floor form of building construction as was used decades later in the Twin Towers.
You have not shown your evidence that identical structural members were present in DC and NYC.
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Old 19th July 2019, 07:54 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
No, we DO NEED THIS!

If the Official Fairy Tale is true, then it should be a piece of cake to get your 104 witnesses to draw in their locations on overhead projections, relative to the flight path they witnessed, and the impact they saw ... signed, on video.

But it is YOU who has zilch.
You have not shown any evidence so the burden of proof is still yours.
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Old 20th July 2019, 02:43 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
No, we DO NEED THIS!

If the Official Fairy Tale is true, then it should be a piece of cake to get your 104 witnesses to draw in their locations on overhead projections, relative to the flight path they witnessed, and the impact they saw ... signed, on video.

But it is YOU who has zilch.

There is not one single such piece of evidence.
Special pleading fallacy.

And a lie - of course, we have more than zilch. We have:
The Radar track.
The Flight Data Recorder
The airplane and the dead passengers
And we do in fact have countless witness who saw an airliner, you know, crash.

You demand a very peculiar, specialized kind of evidence, and one, to boot, which is entirely unnecessary, as we have FAR better evidence. Who needs unreliable witnesses to determine a flight path, when we have
  • The Radar track.
  • The Flight Data Recorder
  • The airplane
  • The damage pattern on the ground
to determine with utmost precision the flight path?`

You have several witnesses who drew flight paths that are physically impossible. A little problem you haven't, I believe, addressed yet. So since now you know that witnesses are prone to drawing mutually excluding and physically impossible flight paths, please explain why, exactly, you demand more of that unreliable kind of evidence, when you have far superior evidence already in your hands?

See, if you have a murder victim with a Roman sword in his chest, and a video that recorded the sword entering said chest, and you have an autopsie that exactly recorded the position of that sword, why would you give any credibility to a bunch of witnesses who claim that it was a light sword/a mini dragon/a splinter of kryptonite/a styrofoam sword/a Roman sword but it flew over the victim?
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Old 20th July 2019, 02:47 AM   #346
Captain_Swoop
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
To which of the THREE or FOUR FDRrs found at the Pentagon, do you keep referring?

To the BLACK BOX found by Allyn E. Kilsheimer, CEO of KCR Structural Engineers PC, Washington, DC.,

OR

To the TWO BLACK BOXES found just before 4 a.m. on Friday 14th September by firefighters Burkhammer and Brian Moravitz, near the impact site on the E ring ... as confirmed by an FBI agent and an official from the NTSB ...

OR

To the BLACK BOX found, according to The ASCE Building Performance Report, and as reported in a book published by the DOD, at the exit hole in the C-Ring?

Would that be 3 FDRs found?

Or maybe even 4 FDRs!

No wonder you have so much evidence to support your story!

The plane was carrying at least one spare black box, just in case the 2 standard issue FDRs were not recovered.
What happened to the aircraft, it's crew and passengers?
Where did it go after it flew over the Pentagon?
Why didn't anyone see it after the moment it flew over?
How did parts from the aircraft get in to the pentagon?
How did the bodies of the passengers and crew get in to the Pentagon?
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Old 20th July 2019, 04:21 AM   #347
pgimeno
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Who needs unreliable witnesses to determine a flight path,
The CTers.

They need unreliable witnesses because:

- They can be manipulated into saying what CTers want them to mean.
- They can be cherry-picked, so that the ones that are not convenient to the CT can be rejected.
- The ones that best support their CT can be propped up as absolute proof.
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Old 20th July 2019, 04:42 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
I've tried to confirm your story that he was at ground level, but I couldn't. Could you provide some citation?
Hello? Rubygray?

Here's the apex in question:



Can you tell me why you think he was at ground level and not, say, at the top of that structure looking through the window?
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Old 20th July 2019, 07:07 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Hmm nope, it must be your x-ray vision witness, loyal long-time Pentagon employee Dennis Smith, who fails.

I merely quoted his own words.
You may have quoted Mr. Smith but you failed to understand ALL of what he was quoted. He went to near where the airplane impacted the building.
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Old 20th July 2019, 11:27 AM   #350
beachnut
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zero investigation skill produces four FDR from one -

Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
To which of the THREE or FOUR FDRrs found at the Pentagon, do you keep referring?

To the BLACK BOX found by Allyn E. Kilsheimer, CEO of KCR Structural Engineers PC, Washington, DC.,

OR

To the TWO BLACK BOXES found just before 4 a.m. on Friday 14th September by firefighters Burkhammer and Brian Moravitz, near the impact site on the E ring ... as confirmed by an FBI agent and an official from the NTSB ...

OR

To the BLACK BOX found, according to The ASCE Building Performance Report, and as reported in a book published by the DOD, at the exit hole in the C-Ring?

Would that be 3 FDRs found?

Or maybe even 4 FDRs!

No wonder you have so much evidence to support your story!

The plane was carrying at least one spare black box, just in case the 2 standard issue FDRs were not recovered.
Sorry, one FDR, and it debunks your sick fantasy. It matches Radar from multiple sites.

by waving hands vigorously enough to achieve LEO, now there are four FDRs (who knew you can pervert google research into paranoid delusions).
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Old 20th July 2019, 11:40 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
Sorry, one FDR, and it debunks your sick fantasy. It matches Radar from multiple sites.

by waving hands vigorously enough to achieve LEO, now there are four FDRs (who knew you can pervert google research into paranoid delusions).
Stick to the claim. Right now the claim is that 4 FDR's were recovered from the P crash site.

So far, our protaganist has provided zero evidence for that claim.

Unless and until, it remains unevidenced. I am not budging an inch. Got evidence? Present it. Have no evidence? I am not even getting out of bed.

ETA: and the claim will be different tomorrow.
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Old 20th July 2019, 12:13 PM   #352
Axxman300
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Hmm nope, it must be your x-ray vision witness, loyal long-time Pentagon employee Dennis Smith, who fails.

I merely quoted his own words.
He's not MY witness. You brought him up and discovered you misquoted him. Then you felt the need to discount his testimony to cover your ineptitude.

He's A witness, one of hundreds who were at the Pentagon.

The thing we find so annoying about you is that you have yet to apply any original thinking to a branch of the pathetic 911 CT's which has always been one of the more ridiculous. Every charge you make came from some other moron, and every point has been destroyed a decade ago.

Worse, you have yet to cite evidence for your claims, and offer any new evidence. You dance away from the logical questions generated by your foolish questions because you obviously can't answer them because you will have to deal in facts, something you cannot do.

Questions you have not provided evidence for:

The secret black-ops light pole canon.

The thinking behind knocking over light poles in the first place when the easier move would be to crash the plane at a near 90-degree angle.

The secret military special operations team behind this event.

The choice to blow up part of the Pentagon instead of the Capital Building.

Then there are the rest of the questions you've dodged:

Where'd the plane go?
Where are the passengers and the people who were working in that part of the building?
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Old 20th July 2019, 03:57 PM   #353
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Has anyone even actually checked lately if Mr. England is still amongst the living? IIRC, in 2001, he was in his early to mid-sixties, which would make him at least 80 today!

This thread itself is over 10 years old, and in that time Craig and Aldo have done absolutely nothing.
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Old 21st July 2019, 08:39 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by Redwood View Post
Has anyone even actually checked lately if Mr. England is still amongst the living? IIRC, in 2001, he was in his early to mid-sixties, which would make him at least 80 today!

This thread itself is over 10 years old, and in that time Craig and Aldo have done absolutely nothing.
His changing inaccurate descriptions of what happened will live on beyond Mr. England for the hard core CTs out there.
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Old 21st July 2019, 11:11 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
You have done no such thing.

What you need to explain is, why and where and when was the 1940s-era traditionally built Pentagon structure retrofitted with the identical floor truss and corrugated floorpans- concrete floor form of building construction as was used decades later in the Twin Towers.

Begging the question that this was done [ETA: is what the photos show]. You have provided no real evidence; you have only provided your clearly ignorant opinion and wishful thinking about what the photographs show.

Three direct questions, Ruby:

First, do you accept that the WTC trusses contained structural steel angles? If not, please explain why those are shown in the diagrams and plans, including one you yourself referenced.

Second, please indicate where, in the photos you claim must have been taken in the WTC, rather than the Pentagon, structural steel angles are visible.

Third, please explain why, in one of the photos you claim must have been taken in the WTC, a victim is wearing the uniform of a US Navy commander or lieutenant commander, including a Pentagon identification badge.
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Last edited by SpitfireIX; 21st July 2019 at 11:55 AM. Reason: Clarification
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Old 21st July 2019, 04:46 PM   #356
AJM8125
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Originally Posted by Redwood View Post
Has anyone even actually checked lately if Mr. England is still amongst the living?
I thinks you know as well as I that all info re Mr. England has been sanitized. So has Mr. England, for that matter.

There shall be no further discussion of this matter, lest we show up at your residence to perform a cranial realignment procedure. You won't remember the side of the ******* gas station you were once we're done with you.

Capisce?
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Old 21st July 2019, 05:28 PM   #357
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"Apparently you have never seen photos, maps and plans of the Pentagon."

I have. I gave a possible explanation.
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Old 21st July 2019, 06:54 PM   #358
Redwood
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redwood
Has anyone even actually checked lately if Mr. England is still amongst the living? IIRC, in 2001, he was in his early to mid-sixties, which would make him at least 80 today!
Originally Posted by bknight View Post
His changing inaccurate descriptions of what happened will live on beyond Mr. England for the hard core CTs out there.
What I saw in the CIT videos from oh-so-long ago was an old man being bullied by a couple of young punks and I immediately sympathized with him.
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Old 21st July 2019, 06:55 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
His changing inaccurate descriptions of what happened will live on beyond Mr. England for the hard core CTs out there.
His descriptions were in fact very accurate, and consistent over the years. This is proven by other witness testimony, plus videos and photos taken within 8 minutes of the impact, which collectively confirm every detail in his story.

It was Aldo's and Craig's predetermined false assumptions of what Lloyde England meant by what he said, fatally distorted by the Jason Ingersoll photos of the staged bridge-cab-pole scene, which caused so much trouble.

CIT got it badly wrong in Lloyde's case, which had the consequence of them also getting it wrong in other cases, such as eyewitnesses Father Stephen McGraw, Joel Sucherman, Vin Narayanan, Mary Ann Owens, etc. All these people were also North-of-Citgo witnesses, if only CIT had recognised this.

Lloyde England was the first eyewitness interviewed by Marquis, Ranke, Russell Pickering, and the rest of the Loose Change team.

The accounts given by all these eyewitnesses only confirm the Northside Flightpath.

CIT actually had many more witnesses supporting the Northside Flight Path, than they realised.
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Old 21st July 2019, 06:57 PM   #360
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Those pesky black boxes

Flight 77’s damaged cockpit voice recorder.*[Source: FBI]
At around 3:40 a.m., investigators at the Pentagon recover the two “black boxes” from Flight 77.*[WASHINGTON TIMES, 9/14/2001]*These boxes are the plane’s flight data recorder and its cockpit voice recorder.*[BBC, 9/15/2001]*Some news reports claim they are found by two Fairfax County firefighters, Carlton Burkhammer and Brian Moravitz, as they comb through debris near the impact site.*[WASHINGTON POST, 9/19/2001;NEWSWEEK, 9/28/2001]*But according to Arlington County spokesman Dick Bridges, members of the FBI’s evidence response team find them.*[PBS, 9/14/2001;WASHINGTON POST, 9/14/2001]*Authors Patrick Creed and Rick Newman will later clarify that Burkhammer and Moravitz find an object initially believed to be one of the black boxes, but closer inspection reveals it to be just “a charred chunk of machinery.” Subsequently, FBI photographer Jennifer Hill finds the cockpit voice recorder in a stack of rubble while assisting searchers. Thirty minutes later, a National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) expert locates the flight data recorder in the same area.*[CREED AND NEWMAN, 2008, PP. 396-397 AND 400-402]*But Allyn Kilsheimer, a structural engineer who helps coordinate the emergency response at the Pentagon, later claims he had “found the black box,” which, he says, he had “stepped on… by accident.”*[GW MAGAZINE, 3/2002;*POPULAR MECHANICS, 3/2005]*Washington FBI agent Christopher Combs says, “Somebody almost threw [the black boxes] away because they didn’t know what they looked like.”*[DISASTER NEWS NETWORK, 10/30/2002]*
Conflicting Accounts of Where Boxes Are Found*- According to Dick Bridges, the two recorders are discovered “right where the plane came into the building.”*[ASSOCIATED PRESS, 9/14/2001]*But the American Society of Civil Engineers’ Pentagon Building Performance Report, released in 2003, will claim that the flight data recorder was found “nearly 300 ft into the structure.”*[MLAKAR ET AL., 1/2003, PP. 40*]In Creed and Newman’s account, the recorders are found in the Pentagon’s middle C Ring, near the “punch-out” hole made by the impacting aircraft.*[CREED AND NEWMAN, 2008, PP. 400-402]*
Boxes Taken Away for Analysis*- The boxes are taken to the NTSB’s laboratory in Washington, where data is extracted from the flight data recorder, but they are reclaimed by the FBI later on in the morning.*[WASHINGTON TIMES, 9/14/2001;*CREED AND NEWMAN, 2008, PP. 402]*A flight data recorder tracks an airplane’s flight movements for the last 25 hours, while the cockpit voice recorder contains radio transmissions and sounds from the cockpit for the last 30 minutes of its flight. Both are mounted in the tail of an aircraft and are encased in very strong materials like titanium. According to American Airlines and United Airlines, the black boxes aboard Flight 77 and the other hijacked planes were modern solid-state versions, which are more resistant to damage than older magnetic tape recorders.*[ASSOCIATED PRESS, 9/15/2001;*BBC, 9/15/2001]*FBI Director Robert Mueller later says that Flight 77’s data recorder has provided altitude, speed, and other information about the flight, but the voice recorder contained “nothing useful.”*[CBS NEWS, 2/25/2002]*The 9/11 Commission will describe the cockpit voice recorder as being “badly burned and not recoverable.”*[9/11 COMMISSION, 7/24/2004, PP. 456]*According to CBS News, preliminary information shows that the cockpit voice tape “appears to be blank or erased.”*[CBS NEWS, 9/16/2001]*The two black boxes from Flight 93 are also recovered around this time (see*September 13-14, 2001).

Entity Tags:*Brian Moravitz,*Carlton Burkhammer,*Allyn Kilsheimer,*Chris Combs,*Federal Bureau of Investigation,*Jennifer Hill,*RobertMoomo,*Dick Bridges

Timeline Tags:*Complete 911 Timeline,*9/11 Timeline
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