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Old 31st October 2011, 11:47 AM   #161
Oystein
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Excellent post.
Again, I have to ask you if this comment means you agree fully, partially, or at all with Zeuzzz's theory. Could you please elaborate?

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Many have been lured and baited into getting banned. That keeps the odds overwhelmingly in the home team's favor. It's not unlike how the MSM lies by omission about 9/11 and many other negative actions against America and Americans.
I am not baiting anyone here into breaking any rules. In other threads, yes, occasinally I return heat with heat. Here, I try my best to maintain an atmosphere that is friendly to all sides, no matter how much I might personally disagree with their positions. To wit, see my responses to what truthers and fencers Jihad Jane, paloalto, MaGZ and Zeuzzz wrote.

Please not also the several posts in this thread where I asked debunkers NOT to jump on truthers theories.

If you just state as consisely as possible your working hypothesis of what happened on 9/11, who did it, how they did it, and why they did it, and indicate which parts of your hypothesis you consider hard fact, and which you only guess or are unsure about, how could anybody possibly hold that against you?

The only time I get a little impatient and cool down my manners is when posters post without addressing the OP by stating their best personal hypothesis.
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Old 31st October 2011, 09:40 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
I thought that there was "no discussion" in this thread? Anyways ...




I don't have a working theory, as such. I just don't think that the video evidence and other evidence relevant to WTC7's collapse can be explained away without drastically contradicting many parts of the official account. Thus my agnosticism. Few other points too but not as major as that one.

As for the other bits I highlighted, I think to say that OBL's aim was "to lure the USA into a violent and costly reaction" is stupid. America's completely unnecessary over-reaction to the attacks (Afghanistan + Iraq) would have been nigh on impossible to anticipate. No doubt the war against both of these innocent countries could not have happened without the popular support the public gave due to 9/11. AQ did not plan to start wars and have hundreds of thousands of their people in their area killed, that's stupid even by their standards. OBL might have been a perfect front man, and indeed probably did harbor enough hatred to carry out such actions, but I think he lacked the power, support and capabilities to carry it out alone.

Despite the huge amount of documentaries all about every major disaster, plus huge amounts of 9/11 based ones, I've yet to see one that gives a detailed account of how this AQ plan worked, and how the logistics and main details of the plan were carried out. Paperwork will be even better than documentaries. Where did Bin Laden, his family and AQ get the large amounts of money + funding from, how did they have access to such security systems, wheres the video and security footage of the attackers (considering there will be thousands of airport videos)? etc.

These might even exist now, I'll be happy to read/watch any info anyone has on this.




Until I see an official working hypothesis that explains the collapses (specially of WTC7) I'm still in the middle. Not seen an official account that explains the collapse evidence yet, but neither a conspiracy theory that stands up to all scrutiny.




Don't know.




Power.



NIST report being as long as it was only covers up to pre-collapse conditions and ignores basically all post collapse modelling. The one column failure = total collapse model of WT7 seems ridiculous. And I guess the amount of money (or lack there-of) they used to fund the 9/11 report and further investigations seems insulting for such an important event are my main criticisms.
Zeuzz,

Like you it took me months to wrap my mind around Building 7's freefall collapse for 2.25 seconds. I just couldn't agree with the NIST Report as it stood. It helped me to look at the Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat, who made some important modifications to the official report. Plus, there is no official story at all from the onset of collapse onward, so you need to look at other sources. I talked to a lot of physicists, engineers and other from this and other sources before understanding it to my satisfaction. It's summarized in Part 18 of my YouTube videos; it's not an official account tho.
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Old 6th April 2015, 11:37 AM   #163
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Bump for Jay Howard. I'm interested in his version of what happened that day.

Everyone else please remember this bit from the OP:

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Hey everybody,

Rule 1: No discussion, please!
We can then discuss aspects in an appropriate thread.
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Old 6th April 2015, 03:01 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
Bump for Jay Howard. I'm interested in his version of what happened that day.

Everyone else please remember this bit from the OP:


We can then discuss aspects in an appropriate thread.
Oystein invited a couple others, Ziggi, gerrycan, and Tony Szamboti to do so as well.

I will abide the rule of no debunkers pile on or discussion in thread.
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Old 7th April 2015, 04:33 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
Oystein invited a couple others, Ziggi, gerrycan, and Tony Szamboti to do so as well.

I will abide the rule of no debunkers pile on or discussion in thread.
24 hours later no takers, funny that.
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Old 7th April 2015, 05:23 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by ProBonoShill View Post
24 hours later no takers, funny that.
MM does have an excuse
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Old 7th April 2015, 05:41 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
MM does have an excuse
Yeah not really, this thread was created over 4 years ago, he's had plenty of time. Funny how he never stepped up to the plate isn't it?
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Old 7th April 2015, 07:02 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
MM does have an excuse
The others are cowards.
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Old 8th April 2015, 02:46 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Hey everybody,

Rule 1: No discussion, please!
I don't want to debate anybody's opinion, so please refrain entirely from quoting anybody, calling them names, demanding evidence etc.
Only exception: Requests to clear up statements you did not understand.

I would like everybody, debunkers and truthers alike, to state as consisely as possible your working hypothesis of what happened on 9/11, who did it, how they did it, and why they did it. You may indicate which parts of your hypothesis you consider hard fact, and which you only guess or are unsure about.

Here's a little checklist of the elements you might want to consider:
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
- 4 civilian planes - real? hijacked? remote controlled? crashed where?
4 real planes were hijacked and crashed where we all know they were crashed: North Tower, South Tower, Pentagon & Shanksville field. The only plane I could see the theory of remote control having any weight is with the Pentagon.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
- Twin Towers - plane crashes? Cause of collapse?
Plane crashes, yes. They probably collapsed in the manner as described by NIST, although I see the alternative method, CD, as being likely too.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
- WTC7 - cause of collapse?
Same as above.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
- Pentagon - plane crash? Missile?
Plane crash.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
- Shanksville - plane? Shot down?
I don't know.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
- If Al Quaeda: Do they hate our freedom? Mindless killers? Is it about Israel? Did they want the wars?
They probably hate American women for their freedoms, like being able to speak, not having to wear a tarp, showing skin and their lovely cleavage and won't be stoned to death if her husband cheats on her. There are mindless killers among them, yes. Some are inspired to attack the U.S. for its support of Israel and the deaths of Palestinians at the hand of Israel. It does appear that they wanted to draw us into a major conflict. OBL mentioned bankrupting the U.S. An Islamic Caliphate is what is wanted.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
- If the government: Who was involved? Bush? Cheney? Any foreign agents? MIHOP or LIHOP?
Without a doubt, LIHOP. Foreign agents were involved; some were helping the hijackers (the Saudis) whereas others (the Israelis) were spying on the hijackers.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
- What about the investigations? 9/11 Commission? NIST? FEMA? FBI? Need a new one? if so, what objectives? Who should chair it?
1. Resisted from the top, no transparency from the top, a political conflict of interest, executive internal management & coercion (the 'minders'), didn't want to nail anyone's balls to the wall, was lied to and deceived, used information attained through torture, omitted a lot of relevant information and history from its report, didn't push hard in important directions like financing (called 'of little practical significance') or how the IC and executive leadership bungled the information they had (called a 'failure of imagination') and many of their records remain classified although they called for transparency, mind you, after President Bush was out of office.
2. Incomplete investigation.
3. Same as above.
4. From what little we can actually read of their report, it leaves much to question. Take the timelines of the hijackers they have on their website right now. Why is so much of the hijackers' movements in the early '90's classified?
5. No.

Last edited by Jango; 8th April 2015 at 03:06 PM.
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Old 8th April 2015, 02:49 PM   #170
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Old 8th April 2015, 02:57 PM   #171
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Thanks, Jango!
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Old 8th April 2015, 03:09 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Thanks, Jango!
The Master File needs to be updated from time to time.
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Old 8th April 2015, 03:16 PM   #173
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Good summary Jango.

The overall balance of technical v political similar to my own viewpoint.

I'm significantly more convinced than you on some of the technical aspects.

Still IMO a lot of scope for discussion of the political management stuff but it is not my area of interest.

Don't overlook the certainty of LIHOOI

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Old 8th April 2015, 04:54 PM   #174
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The preponderance of evidence leads to the inescapable conclusion that on 9/11/2001 a terrorist cabal with a long history of attacking the United States and its interests executed a plan years in the making to attack symbols of American economic, military and political power in an attempt to achieve their own political objectives.

The plan was simple, requiring little specialized skill and could be done on the cheap while inflicting maximum damage. It was a logical combination of two of international terrorism's favorite plays:

Hijacking and suicide bombing.

Large civilian commercial aircraft on regularly scheduled trans-continental flights taking off from within the United States were selected as they would be close to the intended targets, minimizing response time for national defenses and maximizing the potential damage.

The damage done to the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center and their subsequent collapse is entirely consistent with, and readily explained by the high-speed impact of large commercial aircraft and nothing else. The collapse of the Twin Towers was incidental to the plan and not required for it to be successful. A nice bonus perhaps, but not a requirement. Indeed, the plan was so simple and effective that anything after hijacked aircraft could have been considered a victory. Even crashing 4 aircraft into empty fields would have been a huge propaganda coup. 4 aircraft successfully hijacked and destroyed, hundreds of dead American's. Still an un-precedented attack no matter how one slices it.

The damage to and subsequent collapse of 7 World Trade Center and any other buildings in lower Manhattan as a result of the attacks on the Twin Towers is irrelevant to understanding what happened that day, who did it, how and why. Claims that 7 WTC was for some reason deliberately blown up fail utterly under the total lack of motive and the simple fact there are infinitely better ways to do it than any CT has proposed if someone actually needed to.

But they didn't.

9/11 was about terror and fear - about people - not re-arranging the New York real estate market.

The Pentagon was attacked by the hijacked civilian commercial Flight 77 as part of the same attacks as above - the military target in the trifecta of economic, military and political power.

The aircraft that crashed in Shanksville was the hijacked United Flight 93. Based on what we know the most likely cause for it crashing where it did was a deliberate attempt by the hijackers to crash the aircraft to prevent a revolt by passengers alerted to what had happened in New York from re-taking the plane. The intended target for this attack was likely the U.S. Capitol building in Washington D.C. (I think the White House would have been too difficult to hit).

Al Quaeda cites grievances against the west and the U.S. in particular dating back to at least the Treaty of Versailles when France and Britain in particular betrayed the Arabs and Woodrow Wilson let them. Some of the grievances are justified. None of the violence is. Really what they want is the same thing as those pricks from ISIS - money and power. They just sheath it in a vaneer of religious piety.

The Bush administration wasn't interested in terrorism in 2001. You can't sell trillion-dollar ballistic missile defense systems to the public based on the threat from some cave-dwellers in A-stan. You need an Axis-of-Evil for that. I don't know that 9/11 could have been stopped, if we had enough information in advance to foil the plot but I am pretty sure we weren't going to stop it if we weren't looking for it.

Even after 9/11 the Bush admin was obsessed with Daddy's unfinished business and persued a half-assed and indifferent War on Terror against the real threat in A-stan while fabricating an excuse to quell the POTUS's daddy issues. I actually don't think admin officials lied about all that WMD stuff in Iraq - I think they sincerely believed that once we got in there we would find something - enough that people would forget all the highly embellished details used to sell a war that cost us trillions, de-stabilized the Middle East and increased, not decreased the threat to the United States while increasing the influence of Iran.

The major technical questions re: 9/11 have been solved. We know the who/what/when/where/why/how. Minor questions over details remain, none of which likely to fundamentally move the needle from what we know and many likely un-knowable at any rate. No case has been brought forward that would justify any additional investigation of any significant aspect of the 9/11 crime.
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Old 19th April 2015, 04:51 PM   #175
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We'll never know because the CIA's brief was to extract false confessions.
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Old 19th April 2015, 05:07 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
We'll never know because the CIA's brief was to extract false confessions.
Has nothing to do with the question at hand:

"What do you think happened on 9/11, and why?"

Care to field the question?
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Old 20th April 2015, 05:29 PM   #177
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Quote:
- 4 civilian planes - real? hijacked? remote controlled? crashed where?
Hijacked by 19 Al Qaeda operatives, 1 each into a Tower of the WTC, 1 into the Pentagon, and 1 downed at Shanksville, PA.

Quote:
- Twin Towers - Cause of collapse?
Fires and massive structural damage on multiple floors.

Quote:
- WTC7 - cause of collapse?
Damage and fire from ejecta from the collapse of WTC1. Fire burned unchallenged for 8 hours.

Quote:
- Pentagon - plane crash? Missile?
Plane crash

Quote:
- Shanksville - plane? Shot down?
Crashed by Al Qaeda pilot during passenger attempt to retake the aircraft.


Quote:
- If Al Quaeda: Do they hate our freedom? Mindless killers? Is it about Israel? Did they want the wars?
A little of all three, but it's not about our freedoms as much as it is our influence. They did not expect the wars at all.

Quote:
- If the government: Who was involved? Bush? Cheney? Any foreign agents? MIHOP or LIHOP?
Not the gub'mint.


Quote:
- What about the investigations? 9/11 Commission? NIST? FEMA? FBI? Need a new one? if so, what objectives? Who should chair it?
They were fine. It would have been nice to have a deeper look into the intel failure, but as that information dribbles out it has not changed what we knew a week after the attack.
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Old 20th April 2015, 05:54 PM   #178
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As regards the OP, four groups of mother raping, goat ****ers murdered a lot of real people by flying hijacked aircraft into NY (2) and the ground (1)and the Pentagon (1).
Passengers re: ground fought the hijackers and hopefully fed them parts of their bodies before crashing..........

Last edited by fuelair; 20th April 2015 at 05:56 PM.
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Old 23rd April 2015, 06:49 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Damage and fire from ejecta from the collapse of WTC1. Fire burned unchallenged for 8 hours.
Would just like to add that ejecta from the collapse of WTC 2 took out some windows in WTC 7 as well. That created entrance for hot debris to enter #7 in addition to the window breakage from the ejecta from the collapse of WTC 1.
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Old 23rd April 2015, 08:41 AM   #180
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Here's what happened on 9/11:
Three out of four teams proved that 5 people can take and hold a plane full of unsuspecting passengers.

One team proved that 4 people is not enough and that informed passengers are less compliant than uninformed passengers.
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Old 23rd April 2015, 09:40 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
Here's what happened on 9/11:
Three out of four teams proved that 5 people can take and hold a plane full of unsuspecting passengers.

One team proved that 4 people is not enough and that when passengers are informed that the hijackers intend on killing all on board, that those passengers will be less compliant than uninformed passengers.
FTFY
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Old 23rd April 2015, 10:07 AM   #182
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Please don't. I find it offensive.
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Old 25th April 2015, 06:42 AM   #183
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The official version of what actual happened in connection with the actual attacks holds and so on.
No vast conspiracy, no false flag and so on behalf of the US government.
What is left is the most minimal LIHOP possible. So what might that look like - the boss of the actual unit that discovered it, went back-channel high enough to be told "let it be", because someone saw a possibility for achieving something; e.g. power, ideology and/or money.
So did that happen? Properly not, but it could have happened.
As to a LIHOP I can't rule that out.
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Old 26th April 2015, 11:58 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Jango View Post
The only plane I could see the theory of remote control having any weight is with the Pentagon.
I wanted to touch on this a bit more.

Quote:
Mr. Hanjour, who investigators contend piloted the airliner that crashed into the Pentagon, was reported to the aviation agency in February 2001 after instructors at his flight school in Phoenix had found his piloting skills so shoddy and his grasp of English so inadequate that they questioned whether his pilot's license was genuine.
Quote:
A former employee of the school said that the staff initially made good-faith efforts to help Mr. Hanjour and that he received individual instruction for a few days. But he was a poor student. On one written problem that usually takes 20 minutes to complete, Mr. Hanjour took three hours, the former employee said, and he answered incorrectly.

Ultimately, administrators at the school told Mr. Hanjour that he would not qualify for the advanced certificate. But the ex-employee said Mr. Hanjour continued to pay to train on a simulator for Boeing 737 jets. ''He didn't care about the fact that he couldn't get through the course,'' the ex-employee said.

Staff members characterized Mr. Hanjour as polite, meek and very quiet. But most of all, the former employee said, they considered him a very bad pilot.

''I'm still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon,'' the former employee said. ''He could not fly at all.''
A Trainee Noted for Incompetence

Watching cjnewson88's American Airlines Flight 77 Reconstruction with ATC Recording - September 11 2001 video on, yes, Youtube, comes at me like a glaring contradiction.
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Old 27th April 2015, 04:08 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Jango View Post
I wanted to touch on this a bit more.




A Trainee Noted for Incompetence

Watching cjnewson88's American Airlines Flight 77 Reconstruction with ATC Recording - September 11 2001 video on, yes, Youtube, comes at me like a glaring contradiction.
So, to get back on topic for the thread, are you offering the opinion that AA77 was remote controlled by conspirators as yet un-named, but that AA11, UA175 and UA93 were all hijacked and deliberately crashed by terrorists?

Dave
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Old 27th April 2015, 05:05 AM   #186
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I suppose if one is planning a suicide mission one would hardly need to be qualified as in obtaining a license or certification. Presumably Hanjour simply practiced and did the flight simulator stuff in order for him to feel confident that you could fly the plane into one of the largest buildings in the world. Of course he would have to have had some basic knowledge of the controls to do this and little more. Apparently the motion of the plane was not smooth as a professional pilot might have done... but it seems perfectly plausible that Hanjour could have done this nasty deed.
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Old 27th April 2015, 09:13 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Jango View Post
I wanted to touch on this a bit more.

A Trainee Noted for Incompetence

Watching cjnewson88's American Airlines Flight 77 Reconstruction with ATC Recording - September 11 2001 video on, yes, Youtube, comes at me like a glaring contradiction.
Remote control? Add thousands more in on the plot. Total nonsense.
Move the discussion to ...
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5#post10617805
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Old 27th April 2015, 09:28 AM   #188
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Please, folks, no debate of the merits of theories!

If Jango doesn't stand by his earlier full account and theory of 9/11, he is cordially invited to post a revised/updated full account and theory of 9/11. If you wish to discuss any details, please find an appropriate other thread and do it there.

Thanks.
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Old 27th April 2015, 09:35 AM   #189
beachnut
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Please, folks, no debate of the merits of theories!

If Jango doesn't stand by his earlier full account and theory of 9/11, he is cordially invited to post a revised/updated full account and theory of 9/11. If you wish to discuss any details, please find an appropriate other thread and do it there.

Thanks.
Okay mom, I moved it.

I added a photo for you, my trip to Perth with a WC and two KCs...

Yes, we can find a thread - would have been cool to reference the appropriate discussion threads -
Flight 77 maneuver -
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=160946
Will this do for remote control, and quote mined news reports...
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Old 28th April 2015, 05:49 PM   #190
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To reiterate from my prior posts

To reiterate the information I previously posted:

See my posts #44, #49, #57, #63, and #97, almost all that came for information from official US government documents:

These are my conclusions from post #97:

“From this you can only conclude that the CIA and FBI HQ had intentionally deliberately and knowingly, allowed the attacks on 9/11 to take place, even when they knew these attacks would result in the murder of thousands of Americans, and that this result was approved by the very highest managers at both the FBI HQ and CIA, and undoubtedly by people well above this level.

All of the information that back up these conclusions is now found in the public domain, and almost all of it comes from official US government documents, much I have even sourced right at this blog. While it is clear that the 9/11 Commission had access to this exact same information, the 9/11 Commission report was a complete and total fraud on the American people to hide the criminal conduct at the both CIA and the FBI HQ to intentionally allow the attacks on 9/11 to take place.”

No wonder so many people are unaware of the actual facts that had allowed the attacks on 9/11 to take place. But these are my additional conclusions:

Even though the DOJ IG report was the most complete report of the events on 9/11 prior to these attacks taking place, I found that even this report have been criminally sabotaged by the DOJ Inspector General, Glen Fine, to hide the massive criminal actions by both the CIA and the FBI HQ that had allowed the attacks on 9/11 to take place.

But what is even more horrific, is that according to these government reports, CIA managers Richard Blee, Cofer Black and George Tenet, knew on August 22, 2001 that both Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US, knew they were going to take part in a massive terrorist attack that would kill thousands of Americans and even knew that these terrorists would hijack multiple large commercial aircraft and fly these into the World Trade Towers the Pentagon and the US Capitol building.

These CIA managers had moved a CIA manager into the FBI ITOS Unit at FBI HQ in May 2001, Tom Wilshire, to spy on the FBI Cole bombing investigators. Wilshire had been ordered to enlist FBI agents and managers at FBI HQ, which included FBI Agent Dina Corsi and her boss Rod Middleton, to find out if the FBI criminal agents on the Cole bombing, had found out that that Mihdhar and Hazmi had taken part in the planning of the bombing of the USS Cole at the Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting in January 2000.

The meeting that Corsi set up for June 11, 2001 at the FBI New York field office where she showed FBI Steve Bongardt and his team the three photos of Mihdhar that Tom Wilshire had gotten from the CIA, was an attempt to find out what these FBI Cole bombing investigators knew about the meeting in Kuala Lumpur and did they know that Mihdhar and Hazmi had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing.

On August 22, 2001 when FBI Agent Margaret Gillespie, who worked at the Bin Laden unit at the CIA, brought the information to FBI ITOS Deputy Chief Tom Wilshire and FBI HQ IOS Agent Dina Corsi, that the INS had told her on August 21, 2001 that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US, Wilshire knew immediately that these al Qaeda terrorists were inside of the US to take part in a massive attack inside the US. His previous email on July 5, 2001, back to Richard Blee, Cofer Black and George Tenet indicated this.

Wilshire even had second thoughts about being a spy inside the FBI in July 2001 and asked his mangers Blee, Black and Tenet on July 13, 2001 email and again in July 23, 3001 in email for permission to transfer the information on the Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting and the fact that at this meeting Mihdhar and Hazmi had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing, to the FBI Cole bombing investigators. But Wilshire was denied twice to give this information to the FBI Cole bombing investigators. When the CIA mangers Blee, Black and Tenet denied Wilshire permission to give the information to FBI Agent Steve Bongardt and his team, that Mihdhar and Hazmi had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing and the fact that the CIA already thought these al Qaeda terrorists were going to take part in the next al Qaeda attack that was just about to take place, these CIA managers clearly knew that the FBI Cole bombing investigators would not have probable cause of a crime or future crime in order to be able to start any criminal investigation for these terrorists.

Even after the information that both Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside the US went back to Blee, Black and Tenet on August 22, 2001, they never allowed Wilshire to give this information to Bongardt and his FBI Cole bombing investigators. To keep this investigation away from the FBI criminal Cole bombing investigators, Corsi and Wilshire conspired to start an intelligence investigation, which they knew would keep the investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi away from Bongardt and his team.

When the EC that Corsi wrote up to start this intelligence investigation went to the FBI New York office on August 28, 2001, it went to Special Intelligence Agent Craig Donnache who gave it to his boss John Liguori who thought this EC indicated that these terrorist were connected to other terrorists who the Liguori thought had taken part in the Cole bombing and sent Corsi’s EC to Bongardt and his team.

Bongardt called Corsi immediately and requested that the investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi be given to him and his team, so they could find these terrorists before they carried out an al Qaeda terrorist attack inside the US. Even though Corsi had already been given written permission by the NSA general counsel on August 27, 2001, to give the NSA information in her EC to Bongardt, she tells Bongardt that he cannot start any investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi because the NSA information in her EC had not been approved to be given to FBI criminal agents.

Bongardt tells Corsi that he thinks the only reason NSA information could be withheld from FBI criminal agents is if this information was obtained via a FISA warrant, and asks Corsi to get an opinion from the NSLU, the legal unit at FBI HQ.

On August 29, 2001 Corsi tells Bongardt that the legal unit has ruled he cannot have anything to do with an investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi. But the 9/11 Commission report states that Sherry Sabol, the NSLU attorney that Corsi consulted, tells Corsi that since the NSA information in her EC had no connection to any FISA warrant, Bongardt could start or take part in any investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi that he wanted to do.

After Corsi shuts down Bongardt’s investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi, this investigation is given to FBI Special Intelligence Agent Robert Fuller. On September 5, 2001 he calls Corsi and tells her he has gotten nowhere in his search for Mihdhar and needs Mihdhar’s credit card number and asks her for permission to call Saudi Arabian Airlines to get his credit card number since the FBI knew that Mihdhar had flown into the US on July 4, 2001 on this airline. Corsi refuses to give Fuller permission to call Saudi Arabian Airlines and get his credit card number, and knows full well that this will doom his search for Mihdhar. By September 11, 2001 Fuller has gotten nowhere in his search for Mihdhar and Hazmi.

FBI HQ, undre oreders for the CIA did everything possible to effectively block every single investigation to find Mihdhar and Hazmi before the al Qaeda attacks on 9/11. The managers at the CIA who had order their man at the FBI HQ, Tom Wilshire, first to sabotage any criminal investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi by FBI criminal agents on the Cole bombing, Steve Bongardt and his team, and then to continue to effectively block any investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi even after these al Qaeda terrorists were found inside of the US knew full well that because of their orders to prevent the information from Kuala Lumpur meeting and the fact that Mihdhar and Hazmi had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing to be sent to the FBI Cole bombing investigators, that thousands of people, in fact the many thousands of people who worked in the WTC towers, would be killed in an al Qaeda terrorist attack that the CIA was deliberately allowing to take place.

What is even more horrific is that even though George Tenet stated at the 9/11 Commission public hearings on April 14, 2004, that he had not talked to the President in all of August 2001, even though he knew about an imminent enormous al Qaeda terrorist attack just about to take place inside the US and even knew that this attack would kill thousands of American.

But the web site for the White House stated that on August 25, 2001, when President George Bush was asked by a reporter why he was cutting brush on his ranch instead of taking care of the countries business back in Washington, the President stated that he was taking care of the countries business. That in fact he just had just had a 6 hour meeting with the CIA director the day before on August 24, 2011.

The fact that this meeting was never listed on Tenet’s calendar and was kept completely secret by George Tenet even under direct questioning by 9/11 Commissioner Tim Roemer, at the 9/11 Commission public hearings on April 14, 2004, and the fact that even the President who knew that Tenet was giving this false testimony to the 9/11 Commission about this meeting and refused to correct this testimony, shows what the law defines as consciousness of guilt, i.e. these actions show that Tenet told President Bush about this horrific attack and even told Presient Bush that thousands of people who worked at the World Trade Center Towers would be killed in this huge attack.

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Old 29th April 2015, 01:15 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Mark F View Post
The preponderance of evidence leads to the inescapable conclusion that on 9/11/2001 a terrorist cabal with a long history of attacking the United States and its interests executed a plan years in the making to attack symbols of American economic, military and political power in an attempt to achieve their own political objectives.

<<snipped for brevity>>
If I were to reply to the OP, it would mirror the sentiments of your response, however, it would lack the eloquence.

Well said, Sir!

Last edited by HotRodDeluxe; 29th April 2015 at 01:19 AM. Reason: Wot I writ didunt look good... umkay?
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Old 29th April 2015, 04:55 AM   #192
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I've read most of this thread this morning. My thinking about 9/11 has evolved over the years. At this date it would be as follows.

The attack was largely what I call "blowback"... the result of failed US policies around the world. Failed is perhaps not the correct word... because these policies justify and require the USA have a robust national security state to manage the fall out from these policies. If you have laws against drugs... you need a legal and enforcement apparatus to deal with it... prevention, interdiction, stings, busts, and the criminal justice system to deal with the offenders. We have a similar apparatus to "deal with" the world's actors... both states and non state. Terrorism is usually non state but there are instances where states have "sponsored" terrorism... including the USA which was involved in the shoot down of a Cuban plane killing a soccer team (I recall).

The LIHOP theories leverage that the VAST national security state benefits from all manner of conflicts around the world and at home. No crime, no unrest, no need for police and military, FBI and CIA. The notion exists that the NSS is there to both PREVENT crimes and "wars" and to RESPOND to them when they occur.

We witnessed the RESPONSE to 9/11... political and the NSS. We declared a GWOT and invaded a few countries in the ME and in the case of Iraq accused them of sponsoring terrorism and harboring WMDs neither of which appear to be true. Notwithstanding Sadam was a very brutal dicatator who had waged a long and deadly war with Iran and apparently gassed the people of Halabjah. The USA has declared itself de facto police force of the world and has amassed an emormous military complex in service to this perceived need. When the USSR collapsed the main state threat was gone yet the MIC rather than downsize... tried to reinvent itself... There was star wars and then the non state actors which were largely considered criminal activity. Terrorists acts were crimes not acts of war... until 9/11. That changed everything.

There is virtually nothing which supports the notion that bombs and devices were placed in the 3 towers and the Pentagon to destroy them. There were no devices found on the other presumed targets... White House, Capitol or maybe CIA... at least no reports of them.

The non state terrorist carried out plot makes perfect sense to me. Considering that there are double agents and triple agents, and all manner of false stories and manipulation it's pretty hard to know exactly who knew what when. We assume that the CIA and perhaps the FBI inside the USA were monitoring suspicious individuals and groups. One agency dealt with domestic criminal matters... FBI and the other with international CIA. But clearly borders to terrorists mean nothing... so to deal with it requires that these two agencies share and coordinate information. I believe before 9/11 there were no effective... or perhaps any...mechanisms for this to happen. Obviously a shared mission of "security" existed... but without the mechanisms to cooperate.. various individuals within these agencies would be "free lancing". Perhaps their were individuals who assumed too much personal power??

There was no mechanisms at the time (and there may not be today) to shoot down a hijacked commercial flight. Perhaps if the time frame were more stretched out... one plane hitting the wtc at 9 am and then more hijackings later in the afternoon... the NSS might have repurposed its defenses and quickly changed policy to shoot down that day. There simply was no time... and the attack completely low tech was able to exploit a weakness in the defense system which was essentially one to stop a state attack - war... missiles and so forth

No high level of piloting skill was required to hit these massive highly visible targets. These are suicide missions and smooth flying was not required.

I suspect that NSS was aware that terrorism would be a real problem and that no one could manage a reasonable democratic mechanism to deal with it as it would bring on an intrusive surveillance state and so intel simply carried on under the radar doing all manner of questionable things in service to national security. What was the appropriate response to the Nairobi embassy bombing? Or the USS Cole?

The only legal mechanism was a charge of conspiracy to commit a crime... and this would require "spying" and gathering evidence and then arresting or "kidnapping" the suspect and conducting a trial charging him/them with conspiracy. Small to slim chance of that happening. The preferred method seems to have been to catch them in the act... and justify the use of force... and few will object. Perhaps the '93 wtc bombing was an example of such a sting gone wrong????

It's very difficult to being criminals to justice BEFORE they have committed their crimes. It's perhaps a bit easier to stop them in progress and certainly easiest to punish or respond to them AFTER they have been committed.

++++

We learned a lot about many things as a result of 9/11. We didn't learn officially how ineffective the existing NSS was at security. We didn't learn why it was this way.. how it got to be the huge bloated institution(s) it became. We didn't learn who was (ir)responsible for the ineffective manner that led to the attacks of 9/11.

We did see a lot of CYA of the "system"... a system which was completely ineffective against such an attack.

++++

The technical investigations into the collapse of 3 towers seemed to ignore the notion that structural design is key to how they collapsed... It certainly did not focus on the progressive and cascade nature of structural collapse which some designs perform better than others. It seems to me that the designs of the 3 towers played a role in how they collapsed and perhaps why they collapsed as they did. Like the USA "defense/national security" system... these towers were overwhelmed by exploiting structural vulnerabilities.

I am quite certain that the terrorist had no idea that the towers would collapse totally. All they needed to do... for a "victory" was hit some iconic target inside the USA and using planes there would undoubtedly be several hundred causalities. The total collapse as we saw was as much a surprise to the terrorists as it was to many of us... including architects, engineers and scientists who labor under an intuitive notion that these buildings were more robust and could crash down in a few seconds.

The after reports were not very good in my opinion because they provided cover for our inadequate national security system and changed very little to make it more effective. Our response completely failed to address the root causes of terrorism - USA policies over seas... and has actually doubled down and essentially created MORE terrorists... the self fulfilling prophesy come true.

I don't think most buildings will be targets for terrorist planes and as such their structural designs are perfectly adequate. There is always room for improving egress and life safety issues.

The cynic in me would allow for a LIHOP but I don't see specific actions which support this. I see mostly a NSS which was boastful, bloated and caught off guard and diverted the discussion from this and headed us off to more war for profit.
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Old 30th April 2015, 01:45 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by ozeco41 View Post
Good summary Jango.

The overall balance of technical v political similar to my own viewpoint.

I'm significantly more convinced than you on some of the technical aspects.

Still IMO a lot of scope for discussion of the political management stuff but it is not my area of interest.

Don't overlook the certainty of LIHOOI
Quote:
44. CIA cable, “Activities of Bin Ladin Associate Khalid Revealed,” Jan. 4, 2000. His Saudi passport—which contained a visa for travel to the United States—was photocopied and forwarded to CIA headquarters. This information was not shared with FBI headquarters until August 2001. An FBI agent detailed to the Bin Ladin unit at CIA attempted to share this information with colleagues at FBI headquarters.A CIA desk officer instructed him not to send the cable with this information. Several hours later, this same desk officer drafted a cable distributed solely within CIA alleging that the visa documents had been shared with the FBI. She admitted she did not personally share the information and cannot identify who told her they had been shared.We were unable to locate anyone who claimed to have shared the information. Contemporaneous documents contradict the claim that they
were shared. DOJ Inspector General interview of Doug M., Feb. 12, 2004; DOJ Inspector General interview of Michael, Oct. 31, 2002; CIA cable, Jan. 5, 2000; DOJ Inspector General report,“A Review of the FBI’s Handling of Intelligence Information Related to the 9/11 Attacks,” July 2, 2004, p. 282.
Intelligent and purposeful management, as illustrated above, was not done out of ignorance or incompetency. A deliberate effort was made. There are many areas where deliberateness replaces incompetency or ignorance. Another one would be their passports -- 15 out of the 19 were of such poor form that they were on the spot deniable.

The open source record as a whole, evidence and circumstantial evidence alike, points towards LIHOP w/ widely reported/broadcasted elements of MIHOP contained within, namely, controlled demolitions.

A lot of the pre-9/11 stuff, particularly when Bush came into power, becomes a matter of being honest to yourself.
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Old 30th April 2015, 09:26 AM   #194
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Roll Call: What do you think happened on 9/11, and why? I am trying to back in LIHOP, but it keeps failing to make sense. How does LIHOP happen. 911 truth inserts LIHOP by cherry-picking and quote-mining reports and news reports, and with zero logic, they come up with LIHOP. Does LIHOP imply prior knowledge of the act to come. I can't come up with a logical LIHOP, since "It" is not known. Can't happen.

LIHOP is not supported by a cherry-picked quote-mined fantasy made up "deliberate effort". To jump from bureaucratic reality to BS "deliberate effort", with no support past BS. The carpet bombing of BS, with no supporting evidence. Was Khalid al Fawwaz a 911 terrorist - seems to be a tangential support to insert the LIHOP opinion. In reality, the plot of 19 terrorists to crash planes, is hidden by the actions of the known UBL associates movements and actions prior to 911. I look at the LIHOP BS, and find it is based on tangential BS, which is not related to 911 as an event.

I can't get the real plot, take planes, crash planes, and form a LIHOP option, is that some lazy rationalization BS method... When we are robbed, when someone comes and takes our stuff from our home, was it LIHOP? Carjacking, oops, LIHOP, we bought a car. The fact is, someone tricked the USA using our customs, and how we operate, to kill using our planes, and our people as KE weapons. A unique plot, making the plot "It", thus something you can't let it happen on purpose you have no clue what It is.

On 911 we did not leave the keys in the ignition, we were fooled by a 19 nuts who faked hijacking. Really, play the LIHOP card to rationalize being fooled. Like the first forward pass, it took time to figure out the defence, and it was not how we handled hijackings in the past.

The fact is 19 terrorists were part of a plot which was figure out due to how the USA reacts to hijackings. Our skies are civilian controlled, not military, the FAA runs the skies, and the FBI and police react to hijacking, not the USAF, not NORAD over the USA.

There is a lack of logic used to play the LIHOP card, and a lot of ignorance and BS.
Roll Call: What do you think happened on 9/11, and why?
LIHOP, it was the act of 19, who used a plot which exploited our customs, it tricked us. It is hard to LIHOP when you have no clue what your LHOP in the first place; the Lack Of Knowledge (LOK) in 911 truth drives fantasy conclusion of LIHOP and MIHOP which defy logic.

Roll Call: What do you think happened on 9/11, and why?
1. 19 terrorists killed their way to take four planes
2. 19 terrorists crashed four planes.
No one knew it was going to happen, thus you can't LIHOP.
UBL did not like Americans, he decided to kill us - he did not like me being in Saudi Arabia, driving the princes Crown Vic. oops, I mihop, we ate in public with women who were not our sisters, mothers, wives or family.
Darn, it was mihop, Desert Shield, Desert Storm, UBL did not like us helping his country.
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Old 1st May 2015, 03:42 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
Roll Call: What do you think happened on 9/11, and why? I am trying to back in LIHOP, but it keeps failing to make sense. How does LIHOP happen.
You can't have LIHOP without at least some MIHOP. Therefore LIHOP doesn't work. It is MIHOP or terrorist baddies with a large grudge against the U.S. and a long and active history of acting on it.
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Old 1st May 2015, 05:01 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Mark F View Post
You can't have LIHOP without at least some MIHOP. Therefore LIHOP doesn't work. It is MIHOP or terrorist baddies with a large grudge against the U.S. and a long and active history of acting on it.
I think that LIHOP would be a passive approach, i.e. "Let's see how this plays out." However, there are other LIHOP problems that should be discussed in another thread.
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Old 1st May 2015, 07:06 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
I think that LIHOP would be a passive approach, i.e. "Let's see how this plays out." However, there are other LIHOP problems that should be discussed in another thread.
But I don't see how that gets achieved without some active intervention to make sure no one interfere's. Hence, it isn't LIHOP.
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Old 1st May 2015, 07:43 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by Mark F View Post
But I don't see how that gets achieved without some active intervention to make sure no one interfere's. Hence, it isn't LIHOP.
Why would anyone have to interfere? They could just say at the very top "If they catch them, fine, if they don't, well, let's see what happens". Almost certainly didn't happen that way because of how they reacted inside the White House. But it was possible.
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Old 2nd May 2015, 05:11 AM   #199
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My sense is the entire US foreign policy has elements of LIHOP contained in it. The US policies HAVE to produce some manner of reaction. The sell is that the reaction is positive and everyone is pleased as punch with what the US is doing around the world. This is of course naive and just PR.

The policy makers and the MIC know that their behavior around the world will be met with at least SOME resistance and even armed struggle. This is historically born out and is actually as predictable as the sun setting in the West. The RESPONSE is included in the policy because it REQUIRES counter measures/intervention by the military in some fashion. Often it is just training and arms sales to the installed puppet regime. But occasionally the right wing wants to do war and kick ass to intimidate the empire to comply.

So the policy has a LIHOP component which is also called BLOWBACK. One could argue that the policies are ACTIVE and intentional so the responses are expected and almost "engineered" into the policies... that is to say... when we mess around in the ME we are engineering the terrorist blowback.

Of course these blowback responses are hardly threats to US policies and hegemony. The empire does not crumble when the Nairobi embassy is bombed or a hole is blown in the hull of a warship. But these DO serve to justify the BIG STICK policy, of more weapons, more intervention and so forth.

The root cause of terrorism and blow back is clearly the policies of intervening, meddling nations outside their borders. USA? definitely an offender.

Of course this whole "root cause of terrorism" is never discussed in proper context. Truthers make the absurd claim that 9/11 was a false flag... and that there was no reason or justification for non state actors to "blow back". The attack served as much as a encouragement to other "oppressed" to take their own free lance actions against what they see (rightly) as their oppressors.

LIHOP ignores that policy makers GAME it all before they act... and they don't HAVE to engineer the precise blowback.... but they know it's coming.
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Old 4th May 2015, 07:26 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
My sense is the entire US foreign policy has elements of LIHOP contained in it. The US policies HAVE to produce some manner of reaction. The sell is that the reaction is positive and everyone is pleased as punch with what the US is doing around the world. This is of course naive and just PR.

The policy makers and the MIC know that their behavior around the world will be met with at least SOME resistance and even armed struggle. This is historically born out and is actually as predictable as the sun setting in the West. The RESPONSE is included in the policy because it REQUIRES counter measures/intervention by the military in some fashion. Often it is just training and arms sales to the installed puppet regime. But occasionally the right wing wants to do war and kick ass to intimidate the empire to comply.

So the policy has a LIHOP component which is also called BLOWBACK. One could argue that the policies are ACTIVE and intentional so the responses are expected and almost "engineered" into the policies... that is to say... when we mess around in the ME we are engineering the terrorist blowback.

Of course these blowback responses are hardly threats to US policies and hegemony. The empire does not crumble when the Nairobi embassy is bombed or a hole is blown in the hull of a warship. But these DO serve to justify the BIG STICK policy, of more weapons, more intervention and so forth.

The root cause of terrorism and blow back is clearly the policies of intervening, meddling nations outside their borders. USA? definitely an offender.

Of course this whole "root cause of terrorism" is never discussed in proper context. Truthers make the absurd claim that 9/11 was a false flag... and that there was no reason or justification for non state actors to "blow back". The attack served as much as a encouragement to other "oppressed" to take their own free lance actions against what they see (rightly) as their oppressors.

LIHOP ignores that policy makers GAME it all before they act... and they don't HAVE to engineer the precise blowback.... but they know it's coming.
That makes sense.
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I don't believe in God and all the rest outside of methodological naturalism But I am a cognitive and ethical relativist/subjectivist and skeptic.
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