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Tags Chicago incidents , NATO issues , nato summit , protest incidents , protest issues

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Old 21st May 2012, 04:31 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
They're Conservative?
No, they are more or less their own category. They might be the opposite of Conservatives as well.

Liberal or Conservative, we are arguing over the parameters of a government.

Anarchists want none of that.

In some ways they are the asymptotic limit of Libertarianism, but even there, classical mainstream Libertarians are minarchists not anarchists.
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Old 21st May 2012, 04:47 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
I suppose the "Real News Network" would have portrayed the Copenhagen Riots as a group of people sitting peacefully in a circle, singing "Give Peace a Chance"...
Do you?
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Old 21st May 2012, 04:49 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
Chicago police doing a fine job!
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Old 21st May 2012, 04:50 PM   #124
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BTW, somebody STABBED a cop last night.
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Old 21st May 2012, 05:11 PM   #125
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First Police Line Broken - May 19th Anti-Capitalist Nato Protest Chicago #nonato:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 21st May 2012, 05:12 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
They're Conservative?
It must be very constraining to live in a two dimensional world.
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Old 21st May 2012, 05:54 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
Do you?
How do you like this one Jane?


But before you get all outraged, it's relevant to see what directly preceded the anarcho-tard getting his face rearranged. See said anarcho-tard trying to hit the cop with a stick?
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Old 21st May 2012, 06:14 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
First Police Line Broken - May 19th Anti-Capitalist Nato Protest Chicago #nonato:

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Will you work for weed? I've got some light yard work for you.
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Old 21st May 2012, 07:24 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Will you work for weed? I've got some light yard work for you.
If you look closely it's "Will work for Jeremiah Weed". A company that makes bourbon and various other alcoholic beverages.

eta: better view here: http://galleries.apps.chicagotribune...0520201720.jpg
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Old 21st May 2012, 07:39 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
How do you like this one Jane?
http://home.mindspring.com/~turniton...0520170537.jpg

But before you get all outraged, it's relevant to see what directly preceded the anarcho-tard getting his face rearranged. See said anarcho-tard trying to hit the cop with a stick?
http://home.mindspring.com/~turniton...0520201232.jpg
I see 'anarchotard' holding a flimsy bit of 'softwood' looks to be already broke up its length, kind of flimsy wooden support commonly used to hold up a cardboard placard.

What should I see?
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Old 21st May 2012, 07:58 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Captain_Snort View Post
I see 'anarchotard' holding a flimsy bit of 'softwood' looks to be already broke up its length, kind of flimsy wooden support commonly used to hold up a cardboard placard.

What should I see?
Police were confiscating larger pieces of wood so they wouldn't have more effective weapons, so they bring in smaller ones and then combine them to get around that.

His buddy had already broken one over the white-shirt's (higher ranking cop) head, you can see the full sequence here: http://galleries.apps.chicagotribune...es-pictures/#6

eta: that type of wood is called a furring strip, used in the old days for making plaster walls.
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Old 21st May 2012, 08:11 PM   #132
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To Ben, I'll offer you something about the meme being attempted in light of "NATO AS TOOL OF EVIL CAPITALISTS" and such.

This goes back to the years of the Bosnia deal, just before Wesley Clark took over as top general in NATO. The guy in the seat, General George Joulwan, made a public statement in his capacity as head NATO general that floored me. It was words to this effect:

"The current threat is instability."

It seemed to me, a NATO staff officer at the time, that he was claiming that the status quo (pick a year?) was desirable and change was not. Change is the very nature of politics, and the political process, unless you are Prince Metternich.

So if Joulwan's public and official utterance was indeed approved language, which it was if I know anything about the tripe NATO spokesmen utter for public consumption (and I do), then you can point at least to some groupthink among NATO allies and heads of state, Clinton era, just as Blair replaced Majors and while Kohl was Chancellor, and IIRC Prodi had become PM in Italy, with the following sense: change threatens them, in a general sense, and they'll do what they can to fight it, by various means.

I don't think the protestards are thinking it through that thoroughly, and I think some of this is "stuff a finger in Obama's eye," and some is standard Libertarian rhetoric.

But it isn't a new issue with, as the twenty year old, and to my mind unanswered question, remains:

"What the hell is the point of NATO now that the Cold War is over?"

Fixing Afghanistan's internal problems is not, with all due courtesy to those who have served there, it.
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Old 21st May 2012, 09:36 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
If you look closely it's "Will work for Jeremiah Weed". A company that makes bourbon and various other alcoholic beverages.

eta: better view here: http://galleries.apps.chicagotribune...0520201720.jpg
Hey, whatever gets my yard work done.
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Old 21st May 2012, 09:36 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Police were confiscating larger pieces of wood so they wouldn't have more effective weapons, so they bring in smaller ones and then combine them to get around that.

His buddy had already broken one over the white-shirt's (higher ranking cop) head, you can see the full sequence here: http://galleries.apps.chicagotribune...es-pictures/#6

eta: that type of wood is called a furring strip, used in the old days for making plaster walls.
Those are quite solid. Take considerable force to break.
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Old 21st May 2012, 09:42 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
OK, so there is a NATO summit meeting here in Chicago in a few days, and there are supposed to be thousands of legitimate demonstrators (and dozens of criminal anarchists here to cause only trouble) and I cannot for the life of me figure out what there is to protest?

I know the peace activists will be protesting because NATO is military, but what about the other 90% of them?
Modern live is too boring.

That is my guess.
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Old 21st May 2012, 09:52 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Howie Felterbush View Post
No way is that a real commercial.

You can prove to me that it's a real commercial, and I still won't believe it.


Eagle Man is legendary around these parts, along with the Victory Auto Wreckers commercial. I remember when they brought Mancow Muller on to do an Eagle Man sequel ad.
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Old 22nd May 2012, 02:09 AM   #137
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BenBurch:

Quote:
I cannot for the life of me figure out what there is to protest?

Strange. Perhaps your inability is rooted in your country's educational system prioritizing patriotic indoctrination over critical thinking.

Maybe this will help improve your comprehension:



What do you think her placard means and why do you think she feels her message needs to be delivered?

Why do you think a load a veterans returned their medals in Chicago?
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Old 22nd May 2012, 02:41 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Howie Felterbush View Post
No way is that a real commercial.

You can prove to me that it's a real commercial, and I still won't believe it.


If that wasn't from 1993, I'd assume it was a "viral commercial" like the type Rhett and Link specialize in.

http://www.youtube.com/user/rhettand...e=results_main
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Old 22nd May 2012, 02:50 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
CNN has a quite biased anchor for their coverage. I haven't caught who it is, but when they showed clubbing he was asking "Does anyone deserve to be treated like this?" And he also mad the point that the world was watching the police and they would look what "the police instigated and what the protesters forced them to do."
That doesn't even make logical sense!

Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
Having helped organize anti-war protests in downtown Chicago, I know that's true. But I also know that I tried my best to exclude the anarchists, they were not part of our group, but they showed up anyway and tried to cause trouble. They almost made the anti-war protest worthless as a result.

The fact is that whatever the reason for the protest, the anarchists are not there for that reason but instead to incite anarchy.
Not to mention that in the OWS thread, when we bought up the anarchists throwing bricks through windows on May Day, JihadJane posted a photo of them fishing for cops with donuts, possibly in an attempt to divert. Ha, ha, those wacky harmless black bloc protesters.

Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
Are you ever going to develop any tricks besides posting images, thinly veiled personal attacks, and dodging questions?
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Old 22nd May 2012, 03:17 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
To Ben, I'll offer you something about the meme being attempted in light of "NATO AS TOOL OF EVIL CAPITALISTS" and such.

This goes back to the years of the Bosnia deal, just before Wesley Clark took over as top general in NATO. The guy in the seat, General George Joulwan, made a public statement in his capacity as head NATO general that floored me. It was words to this effect:

"The current threat is instability."

It seemed to me, a NATO staff officer at the time, that he was claiming that the status quo (pick a year?) was desirable and change was not. Change is the very nature of politics, and the political process, unless you are Prince Metternich.

So if Joulwan's public and official utterance was indeed approved language, which it was if I know anything about the tripe NATO spokesmen utter for public consumption (and I do), then you can point at least to some groupthink among NATO allies and heads of state, Clinton era, just as Blair replaced Majors and while Kohl was Chancellor, and IIRC Prodi had become PM in Italy, with the following sense: change threatens them, in a general sense, and they'll do what they can to fight it, by various means.

I don't think the protestards are thinking it through that thoroughly, and I think some of this is "stuff a finger in Obama's eye," and some is standard Libertarian rhetoric.

But it isn't a new issue with, as the twenty year old, and to my mind unanswered question, remains:

"What the hell is the point of NATO now that the Cold War is over?"

Fixing Afghanistan's internal problems is not, with all due courtesy to those who have served there, it.
But hasn't NATO tried to change, to support "offensive" action? The presence in Afghanistan do point to that, although I would agree that the doctrine behind this seems formless and isn't being thought through.

Maybe European countries should try to grasp the chance of building upon it for a common defense. I am not overly optimistic over this, as European defense issues in general are trainwrecks.

I think NATO will keep lingering around and that its new purpose will emerge out of empiric use (so, pretty much what is already going on).
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Old 22nd May 2012, 06:11 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
BenBurch:




Strange. Perhaps your inability is rooted in your country's educational system prioritizing patriotic indoctrination over critical thinking.

Maybe this will help improve your comprehension:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...b568b0b6ae.jpg

What do you think her placard means and why do you think she feels her message needs to be delivered?

Why do you think a load a veterans returned their medals in Chicago?
Were you not paying attention when I said I knew why the peace activists were there? I didn't think so. It's the rest of the unfocussed violent nonsense that I think is beyond stupid.
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Old 22nd May 2012, 06:29 AM   #142
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People had posts that were interesting and then I saw occutard and anarchatard

Really guys? Stop calling yourselves skeptics if you can't even use proper words.

(NOTE: THIS IS NOT AGREEING OR ENDORSING THEIR ACTIONS. I really disagree with people who try to stir up trouble rather than peacefully protest.)
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Old 22nd May 2012, 06:36 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Well, at a guess I would assume it has something to do with NATO having outlived its purpose and now being retained to perpetuate some kind of international military industrial complex.

I don't necessarily agree with that but it probably isn't entirely baseless either.

NATO have been involved recently in foreign interventions that have a dubious success rate, in Afghanistan and more recently in Libya. It is still not quite clear how successful either of these missions have been yet.
Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
To Ben, I'll offer you something about the meme being attempted in light of "NATO AS TOOL OF EVIL CAPITALISTS" and such.

This goes back to the years of the Bosnia deal, just before Wesley Clark took over as top general in NATO. The guy in the seat, General George Joulwan, made a public statement in his capacity as head NATO general that floored me. It was words to this effect:

"The current threat is instability."

It seemed to me, a NATO staff officer at the time, that he was claiming that the status quo (pick a year?) was desirable and change was not. Change is the very nature of politics, and the political process, unless you are Prince Metternich.

So if Joulwan's public and official utterance was indeed approved language, which it was if I know anything about the tripe NATO spokesmen utter for public consumption (and I do), then you can point at least to some groupthink among NATO allies and heads of state, Clinton era, just as Blair replaced Majors and while Kohl was Chancellor, and IIRC Prodi had become PM in Italy, with the following sense: change threatens them, in a general sense, and they'll do what they can to fight it, by various means.

I don't think the protestards are thinking it through that thoroughly, and I think some of this is "stuff a finger in Obama's eye," and some is standard Libertarian rhetoric.

But it isn't a new issue with, as the twenty year old, and to my mind unanswered question, remains:

"What the hell is the point of NATO now that the Cold War is over?"

Fixing Afghanistan's internal problems is not, with all due courtesy to those who have served there, it.
Thanks, I think we are somewhere in agreement here. That is to say, there is nothing wrong with opposition to NATO per se. How the opposition is carried out may be unjustified, obviously, although that isn't an interesting observation.
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Old 22nd May 2012, 06:46 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
Were you not paying attention when I said I knew why the peace activists were there? I didn't think so. It's the rest of the unfocussed violent nonsense that I think is beyond stupid.
Don't fall for it. Jane has a tendency to try and personalize the debate and change the subject instead of responding to her opponents' actual points. In this case "You're a stupidhead! What do you think of this old lady?"
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Old 22nd May 2012, 07:17 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by 000063 View Post
Don't fall for it. Jane has a tendency to try and personalize the debate and change the subject instead of responding to her opponents' actual points. In this case "You're a stupidhead! What do you think of this old lady?"
BTW, I believe I know the peace activist in her photo.
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Old 22nd May 2012, 02:48 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by KoihimeNakamura View Post
People had posts that were interesting and then I saw occutard and anarchatard

Really guys? Stop calling yourselves skeptics if you can't even use proper words.
Those are the proper words. They certainly weren't the peace activists who made up the other 99% of the demonstrators.
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Old 22nd May 2012, 04:45 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
It must be very constraining to live in a two dimensional world.

Why? Do you feel constrained?
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Old 22nd May 2012, 07:37 PM   #148
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I chalk this up as yet more evidence that protests are at best worthless and at worst counter productive.


All those hotheads out there would be much better served trying to become politically active than bashing cops with scrap lumber.
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Old 22nd May 2012, 07:55 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Laeke View Post
But hasn't NATO tried to change, to support "offensive" action? The presence in Afghanistan do point to that, although I would agree that the doctrine behind this seems formless and isn't being thought through.

Maybe European countries should try to grasp the chance of building upon it for a common defense. I am not overly optimistic over this, as European defense issues in general are trainwrecks.

I think NATO will keep lingering around and that its new purpose will emerge out of empiric use (so, pretty much what is already going on).
Laeke, I see that, and suspect that NATO's inertia will carry forward for a while longer.
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Old 22nd May 2012, 08:14 PM   #150
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Just wondering, has JihadJane given a reason to protest NATO or is she still asking loaded questions about dangling donuts?
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Old 22nd May 2012, 08:20 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Virus View Post
Just wondering, has JihadJane given a reason to protest NATO or is she still asking loaded questions about dangling donuts?
NATO is actually controlled by Zio-Bankers?
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Old 22nd May 2012, 09:32 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
I chalk this up as yet more evidence that protests are at best worthless and at worst counter productive.


All those hotheads out there would be much better served trying to become politically active than bashing cops with scrap lumber.
A focussed and totally civil protest asking for a specific injustice to be remedied can often have a quite profound effect. IF it is large enough.
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Old 23rd May 2012, 02:57 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by 000063 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenBurch
Were you not paying attention when I said I knew why the peace activists were there? I didn't think so. It's the rest of the unfocussed violent nonsense that I think is beyond stupid.
Don't fall for it. Jane has a tendency to try and personalize the debate and change the subject instead of responding to her opponents' actual points. In this case "You're a stupidhead! What do you think of this old lady?"
Apologies, Ben Burch, if I missed your post. I cannot read your posts directly due to your flashing avatar.

Naively dividing the demonstrators into "peace activists" and "unfocussed violent nonsense" confirms that perceptual difficulties may be responsible for your incomprehension. Your two-dimensional analysis comes across more as bigotry than reason.


Originally Posted by 000063 View Post

Not to mention that in the OWS thread, when we bought up the anarchists throwing bricks through windows on May Day, JihadJane posted a photo of them fishing for cops with donuts, possibly in an attempt to divert. Ha, ha, those wacky harmless black bloc protesters.
I informed you at the time that the premise of your theory (i.e. that I'd read the comments you were referring to) was flawed.
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Old 23rd May 2012, 05:19 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Those are the proper words. They certainly weren't the peace activists who made up the other 99% of the demonstrators.
No they aren't. It's a cheap trick.
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Old 23rd May 2012, 05:59 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
A focussed and totally civil protest asking for a specific injustice to be remedied can often have a quite profound effect. IF it is large enough.
True enough.

Unfortunately the last time America has seen that was the civil rights protests of the 50s-60s.
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Old 23rd May 2012, 06:49 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
True enough.

Unfortunately the last time America has seen that was the civil rights protests of the 50s-60s.
Oh, a number of more local things have been addressed that way over the years as well.
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Old 23rd May 2012, 09:39 AM   #157
000063
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
A focussed and totally civil protest asking for a specific injustice to be remedied can often have a quite profound effect. IF it is large enough.
I think I see the problem here.

Mockery aside, many protestors seem to and do go out of their way to be as uncivil as they dare, while claiming, without a shred of irony, that it's just civil disobedience. Once you go around assaulting cops and actively trying to provoke incidents with police, then you don't deserve to be called "civil". I never got an explanation for how dangling donuts furthered the cause of OWS or the May Day protests.
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Old 23rd May 2012, 09:44 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Virus View Post
Just wondering, has JihadJane given a reason to protest NATO or is she still asking loaded questions about dangling donuts?
I seem to recall I was asking the questions about the point of the donuts, and she was desperately trying to deflect by asking loaded questions about how it would be wrong for the officers to assault the protestors over donuts. I said yes, it would, and asked her the question again. And again. And again. Then I stopped reading her responses, because she wasn't actually answering my questions or responding to my points.

Of course, everyone who saw the photo knew the "protestors" were there solely to try and piss off the cops, so I don't know why anyone would bother to dissemble.
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Old 23rd May 2012, 10:31 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by 000063 View Post
I think I see the problem here.

Mockery aside, many protestors seem to and do go out of their way to be as uncivil as they dare, while claiming, without a shred of irony, that it's just civil disobedience. Once you go around assaulting cops and actively trying to provoke incidents with police, then you don't deserve to be called "civil". I never got an explanation for how dangling donuts furthered the cause of OWS or the May Day protests.
It's all about manufacturing propaganda. They want photos of cops hitting people so they can go about saying how oppressive and fascist government/society is. If the police are not cooperative then they need to be encouraged by taunting, or actually being attacked.
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Old 23rd May 2012, 10:37 AM   #160
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Agreed. What makes a protest really effective to cause change is;

1. A real grievance
2. A concrete request for addressing that grievance
3. Really large numbers (like election-margin large)
4. Orderly and LOUD.
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