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Tags Chicago incidents , concealed carry , shooting incidents

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Old 25th April 2015, 12:35 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
...the literally hundreds of thousands of DGU's that occur every year in this country.
Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
The low end of estimates is 300,000 DGUs per year, so there's been at least 100,000 so far.
Where do these figures come from?
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Old 25th April 2015, 12:41 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
And yet other part of the world get away with not having gun AND not having more crime than the US.
And some have less guns and more crime, like the UK.
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Old 25th April 2015, 12:52 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
You seem to be suggesting that only gangbangers leave guns laying around the house.
Seems to be the overwhelming majority in urban areas. The case linked to involved "a relative" who brought the guns into the house unbeknownst to anyone else, and stashed them under a couch. I'm guessing it wasn't someone who legally acquired or possessed them, and did not have them for lawful self defense or sporting purposes. Rather odds are it was a criminal who had them as part of his "job".
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Old 25th April 2015, 12:53 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla Sama View Post
Argument by anecdote? Really?
Seems to be your favorite tactic, why so sour on it all of a sudden?
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Old 25th April 2015, 12:56 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by 12AX7 View Post
Where do these figures come from?
Studies.

Do you have any studies to show?
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Old 25th April 2015, 01:26 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Studies.

Do you have any studies to show?
Do you have any studies to show? You provided a figure, and you say it comes from studies. Surely, you shouldn't be so coy. Which studies?
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Old 25th April 2015, 01:29 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by 12AX7 View Post
Where do these figures come from?
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Do you have any studies to show? You provided a figure, and you say it comes from studies. Surely, you shouldn't be so coy. Which studies?
It's bollocks.
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Old 25th April 2015, 01:30 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Do you have any studies to show? You provided a figure, and you say it comes from studies. Surely, you shouldn't be so coy. Which studies?
Remember upthread when I said:

Originally Posted by 12AX7 View Post
See, they've been on the defensive. Everytime a child is shot with a gun, everytime two gunnutters end up shooting each other at a car wash, everytime someone shoots up a school, they're the first to squeal "What about DGUs!?"

Yet when pressed for real numbers on these DGUs, they get sketchy.
This is what I meant.
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Old 25th April 2015, 02:03 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
I get truly tired of the constant causal oversimplification that gets expressed here (sometimes with a generous portion of the psychologist's fallacy to boot).
Which part did you think I casually oversimplified?
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Old 25th April 2015, 02:06 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by 12AX7 View Post
I'm just glad you guys have a successful CCW use to hang your hats on. A real hero for you guys! Everybody wins!



When concrete examples of DGU matches the numbers of accidents, lemme know.
Not sure what DGU is, but I didn't shoot anyone today, or yesterday. Does that count?
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Old 25th April 2015, 02:20 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by 12AX7 View Post
Yay.

Now you guys can add another "hero CCW" story to the pro-gun portfolio.
Man with concealed carry license stops gunman

This should have read:
Responsible gun owner with concealed carry license stops gunman
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Old 25th April 2015, 02:22 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Do you have any studies to show? You provided a figure, and you say it comes from studies. Surely, you shouldn't be so coy. Which studies?
You can find cites in the study Obama had the CDC do for him: http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=18319&page=R1

Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
It's bollocks.
Your cite is bollocks, politically motivated tripe.

Please cite your studies that show DGUs at fewer than 300,000 per year, again the low end of the available studies.
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Old 25th April 2015, 02:26 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
You can find cites in the study Obama had the CDC do for him: http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=18319&page=R1
Have you purchased that study?
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Old 25th April 2015, 02:28 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by 12AX7 View Post
I'm just glad you guys have a successful CCW use to hang your hats on. A real hero for you guys! Everybody wins!



When concrete examples of DGU matches the numbers of accidents, lemme know.
http://www.reddit.com/r/dgu

[Various] The Armed Citizen: Without Firing A Shot

(americas1stfreedom.org)

submitted 1 day ago by pongo000


CCW[2015/04/24] "Ark. shopper defends elderly man by pulling gun" (Little Rock, AR)


[2015/04/25] Jewelry store employee fires shot during robbery attempt (Grand Rapids Twp., MI)

(mlive.com)


[2015/04/23] Would-be burglar shot to death in Arlington (TX) home


[2015/04/23] Homeowner shoots burglar running from neighbor's backyard (Lake Charles, LA)


Bad Form[2015/04/23] Store clerk shoots would-be chainsaw thief in head (Taylorsville, NC)



Bad Form[2015/04/22] Gas station clerk shot armed robber (St. Louis, MO)

This is just a taste of what's listed.
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Old 25th April 2015, 02:32 PM   #55
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WaPO:

The study that gun-rights activists keep citing but completely misunderstand


Quote:

But gun-rights supporters zeroed on in a few statements to make their case. One related to the defensive use of guns. The New American Magazine article noted that "Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year, in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008."

So it would appear the "good use" of guns outweighs the "bad use." That may be true, except the study says all of those statistics are in dispute -- creating, in the study authors' eyes, a research imperative.

The study (available as a PDF) calls the defensive use of guns by crime victims "a common occurrence, although the exact number remains disputed." While it might be as high as 3 million defensive uses of guns each year, some scholars point to the much lower estimate of 108,000 times a year. "The variation in these numbers remains a controversy in the field," the study notes.
Be sure you guess high.
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Old 25th April 2015, 02:32 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by jakesteele View Post
[2015/04/23] Homeowner shoots burglar running from neighbor's backyard (Lake Charles, LA)
Shot in the back. Sweet.
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Old 25th April 2015, 02:42 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla Sama View Post
Shot in the back. Sweet.
It's the shot in the back part that makes it defensive. Somehow.
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Old 25th April 2015, 02:46 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
It's the shot in the back part that makes it defensive. Somehow.
Oops. My bad, I thought it was the "let's skip due process" part.
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Old 25th April 2015, 02:51 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by 12AX7 View Post
On a related note:


This 1-Year-Old Is Already the 24th U.S. Child Killed by Accidental Gun Violence in 2015




But Yay!

The blind CCW pig found the occasional truffle. I know you guys were upset that Joseph Robert Wilcox didn't have a chance to be a CCW hero,

So now you can celebrate!

Have there been 24 verifiable successful DGUs in the US this year?

More guns!
Many, many more than that: I've already posted this but it bears repeating. http://www.reddit.com/r/dgu.
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Old 25th April 2015, 02:59 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by jakesteele View Post
Many, many more than that: I've already posted this but it bears repeating. http://www.reddit.com/r/dgu.
Awesome! There are 300,000 DGUs on that page?

Cool!
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Old 25th April 2015, 03:00 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla Sama View Post
Oops. My bad, I thought it was the "let's skip due process" part.
Why do you hate America?
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Old 25th April 2015, 03:02 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by 12AX7 View Post
Why do you hate America?
Because America made me defender her all these years. Hated that. If the money wasn't so good I would have quit when they offered me a medical.
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Old 25th April 2015, 04:45 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by 12AX7 View Post
Where do these figures come from?
What do you care?


Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Do you have any studies to show? You provided a figure, and you say it comes from studies. Surely, you shouldn't be so coy. Which studies?
The ones done by the federal government.


Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
It's bollocks.
LOL Okay.


Originally Posted by Amazer View Post
Which part did you think I casually oversimplified?
By attributing more murders to gun ownership. You just happened to be the first to say it but it's been said time and time and time again as if it were fact.

Now, I betting you're gonna nitpick and claim that you're right when you limit violence and murders to gun violence and gun murders but there is still no causal relationship, especially extrapolated to the United States.
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Old 25th April 2015, 04:56 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post

By attributing more murders to gun ownership. You just happened to be the first to say it but it's been said time and time and time again as if it were fact.
That's a cross gunners are going to have to bear while guns keep killing people.
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Old 25th April 2015, 05:33 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
What do you care?


I don't. I know they're pulled from the collective gun community's ass.

So do others.
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Old 25th April 2015, 05:42 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
What do you care?

The ones done by the federal government.
Do you understand how conversation and argument work?

Wildcat at least provided a link when asked a second time. I couldn't quite find the relevant passage in the link and I'm still not sure how they came up with the number or what the precise claim is. I'd appreciate a clarification from anyone who knows.

But you really must realize that if you claim studies show such-and-such is the right figure, then you have to be prepared to tell us which studies or else give up the claim as unsupported when challenged. That's just how it goes.
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Old 25th April 2015, 05:46 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Do you understand how conversation and argument work?

Wildcat at least provided a link when asked a second time. I couldn't quite find the relevant passage in the link and I'm still not sure how they came up with the number or what the precise claim is. I'd appreciate a clarification from anyone who knows.

But you really must realize that if you claim studies show such-and-such is the right figure, then you have to be prepared to tell us which studies or else give up the claim as unsupported when challenged. That's just how it goes.

Check out the Washington Post article on post #55.
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Old 25th April 2015, 05:47 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
It's bollocks.
I didn't read the whole article, but it seems to be attacking the claim that there are between one and 2.5 million defensive uses per year, due to a study from Florida State.

Since Wildcat mentioned 300,000, I don't think this is the study he's referring to, so this article appears to be irrelevant (unless we know whether his study has the same methodology as the FSU study).
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Old 25th April 2015, 05:54 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by 12AX7 View Post
Check out the Washington Post article on post #55.
Thanks. Per that article (and the excerpt you quoted) the CDC study doesn't seem confident in any of the estimates published so far.

So, it doesn't really seem like this paper is a good citation for the figure of 300,000 defensive uses per year.
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Old 25th April 2015, 06:05 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post

So, it doesn't really seem like this paper is a good citation for the figure of 300,000 defensive uses per year.
It's not.

Like I said, when you press gun owners for evidence of this number they get kinda sketchy at best.
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Old 25th April 2015, 06:11 PM   #71
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Brilliant

Thankfully everyone was carrying guns
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Old 25th April 2015, 07:12 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
By attributing more murders to gun ownership. You just happened to be the first to say it but it's been said time and time and time again as if it were fact.
From the following article
http://www.theguardian.com/news/data...hip-world-list

In 60% of all homicides in the USA a gun is used. Compared to The Netherlands 31%
Homicide by firearm rate 2.97 vs 0.33 per 100.000
Average firearms per 100 people 88.8 vs 3.9

And from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._homicide_rate
Intentional homicide rate 4.7 vs 0.9 per 100.000

So all in all I'm pretty confident that a higher rate of gun ownership, coupled with ease of access to those firearms does indeed lead to a higher murder rate.


Quote:
Now, I betting you're gonna nitpick and claim that you're right when you limit violence and murders to gun violence and gun murders but there is still no causal relationship, especially extrapolated to the United States.
I don't need to nitpick... the numbers speak for themselves.

That said, I'm open to the idea that I've interpreted the data incorrectly but then you'll need to do a bit better then just claiming that without any corroborating evidence. The ball is in your court.
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Old 26th April 2015, 08:22 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla Sama View Post
That's a cross gunners are going to have to bear while guns keep killing people.
Pro-gunners don't have to bear the burden of criminals, just as you do not have to bear the burden of a rapist because you're male.


Originally Posted by 12AX7 View Post
I don't.
Exactly. You are convinced of your position regardless of what the facts may say and it seems there's nothing that will convince you otherwise.


Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Do you understand how conversation and argument work?

Wildcat at least provided a link when asked a second time. I couldn't quite find the relevant passage in the link and I'm still not sure how they came up with the number or what the precise claim is. I'd appreciate a clarification from anyone who knows.

But you really must realize that if you claim studies show such-and-such is the right figure, then you have to be prepared to tell us which studies or else give up the claim as unsupported when challenged. That's just how it goes.
There are a few honest anti-gunners here and I don't mind engaging them and producing evidence. These studies and papers and numbers have been produced over and over again and every new thread that pops up, the anti's all rush in breathless and clamoring for evidence that's out there and accessible; and any response is used as victory.


Originally Posted by Amazer View Post
From the following article
http://www.theguardian.com/news/data...hip-world-list

In 60% of all homicides in the USA a gun is used. Compared to The Netherlands 31%
Homicide by firearm rate 2.97 vs 0.33 per 100.000
Average firearms per 100 people 88.8 vs 3.9

And from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._homicide_rate
Intentional homicide rate 4.7 vs 0.9 per 100.000

So all in all I'm pretty confident that a higher rate of gun ownership, coupled with ease of access to those firearms does indeed lead to a higher murder rate.



I don't need to nitpick... the numbers speak for themselves.

That said, I'm open to the idea that I've interpreted the data incorrectly but then you'll need to do a bit better then just claiming that without any corroborating evidence. The ball is in your court.
It's exactly as I said; you're taking an incredibly complicated sociological phenomenon and attributing a direct correlation to a simple idea of mere gun ownership. I say this because of all of the other exceptions to this "low gun ownership/low crime" meme. Or how do you explain them under your theory?
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Old 26th April 2015, 08:24 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Pro-gunners don't have to bear the burden of criminals, just as you do not have to bear the burden of a rapist because you're male.
Well, I used to teach women how to handle themselves if they were attacked. I felt it was something I should do. YMMV
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Old 26th April 2015, 08:43 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Exactly. You are convinced of your position regardless of what the facts may say and it seems there's nothing that will convince you otherwise.
I'm convinced the gun community has pulled that figure from their collective asses and used the higher-end of estimates.

Show me these "studies" that solidly confirm the number of DGUs you guys claim. Should be really simple to do.

Last edited by 12AX7; 26th April 2015 at 08:46 AM.
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Old 26th April 2015, 08:44 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Studies.

Do you have any studies to show?
I accept such may well exist, but it is not my job to find them. You are quoting /saying they exist, you just need to tell us where. Specifically. So we can A) compare them against each other as well as counter studies and B) verify they are from legitimate sources and C) verify you were not misinterpreting them.
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Old 26th April 2015, 08:45 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
There are a few honest anti-gunners here and I don't mind engaging them and producing evidence. These studies and papers and numbers have been produced over and over again and every new thread that pops up, the anti's all rush in breathless and clamoring for evidence that's out there and accessible; and any response is used as victory.
Well, I don't usually participate in gun threads, and as an occasional reader of such threads, your reluctance to state explicitly the source of these numbers comes off as a forfeiture of the argument. At the least, you should perhaps provide a link to prior discussions.
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Old 26th April 2015, 08:47 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
I accept such may well exist, but it is not my job to find them. You are quoting /saying they exist, you just need to tell us where. Specifically. So we can A) compare them against each other as well as counter studies and B) verify they are from legitimate sources and C) verify you were not misinterpreting them.
You're mistaken. If somebody demands links that doesn't mean they have to provide links. It's not a two way street.
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Old 26th April 2015, 09:45 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by 12AX7 View Post
Have you purchased that study?
You don't need to purchase it, you can read it from the link I provided. I was wrong though with my figure of 300,000. According to that report (page 15) the low end of DGUs per year is 500,000.

Now, please provide your evidence.
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Old 26th April 2015, 09:47 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by 12AX7 View Post
The 108,000 figure is completely made up. Here's what the CDC study says about it: "The former estimate of 108,000 is difficult to interpret because respondents were not asked specifically about defensive gun use."

It comes from a survey in which the question wasn't even asked!
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