ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags michael jackson , sex scandals

Reply
Old 11th March 2019, 10:02 PM   #801
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 21,487
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The problem is that both of them testified twice under oath in court that no abuse ever happened, and now are saying different for documentary where there is no consequences for not telling the truth.

So either they committed perjury, twice, or they are lying now. Either way it's not helpful for their credibility.

We also have to remember that a documentary crew can film and edit the testimony as much as they want to make sure it is convincing. Harder to do in a court of law with a lawyer questioning you.
Given the money making machine that grew around Michael a narrative of coercion is credible.
__________________
'The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.' - Richard Feynman
Sideroxylon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th March 2019, 10:52 PM   #802
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 6,898
Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
???? I'm not sure which is worse -that you made that claim, or that every person here with 10 gigs of porn hasn't called you on it. Some people collect warehouses of adult materials without ever allowing a child to see any of it under any circumstances.
I'm baffled - what do you think is wrong with my claim? I mean, if he wasn't using it himself, or showing it to someone else, why did he have it?
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th March 2019, 11:07 PM   #803
DragonLady
Illuminator
 
DragonLady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,319
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
I'm baffled - what do you think is wrong with my claim? I mean, if he wasn't using it himself, or showing it to someone else, why did he have it?
I'm sorry. I just re-read what you said and realize I misunderstood you the first time.
__________________
http://www.troubador.co.uk/book_info.asp?bookid=2499

“She would be half a planet away, floating in a turquoise sea, dancing by moonlight to flamenco guitar.” ~ Janet Fitch

The Gweat and Tewwible Winged One
DragonLady is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th March 2019, 11:08 PM   #804
DragonLady
Illuminator
 
DragonLady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,319
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Given the money making machine that grew around Michael a narrative of coercion is credible.
Is there any evidence of that?
__________________
http://www.troubador.co.uk/book_info.asp?bookid=2499

“She would be half a planet away, floating in a turquoise sea, dancing by moonlight to flamenco guitar.” ~ Janet Fitch

The Gweat and Tewwible Winged One
DragonLady is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th March 2019, 11:23 PM   #805
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 24,299
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
How can someone settle a criminal charge out of court?
Well you can't - technically. However, in this case, once Jackson gave the victim's family money, they stopped cooperating with the police's criminal investigation, forcing the authorities to end the investigation without charges.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th March 2019, 11:30 PM   #806
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 21,487
Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Is there any evidence of that?
I don’t think I need any for a general claim in the context of the post I was answering. And what would evidence look like? Would you accept the accounts of alleged victims? That probably exists.
__________________
'The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.' - Richard Feynman
Sideroxylon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th March 2019, 11:46 PM   #807
DragonLady
Illuminator
 
DragonLady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,319
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
I don’t think I need any for a general claim in the context of the post I was answering. And what would evidence look like? Would you accept the accounts of alleged victims? That probably exists.
I believe it's best to accept the accounts of alleged victims as a reason to investigate.

However, if no evidence is found to corroborate the stories, then it's just stories.

It's no different than ghost stories or bigfoot sightings or any other anecdote. It doesn't mean the person is lying; it just means there's no evidence.

Here in the USA one is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, and Jackson wasn't proven guilty of anything. He was investigated, prosecuted, and acquitted.
__________________
http://www.troubador.co.uk/book_info.asp?bookid=2499

“She would be half a planet away, floating in a turquoise sea, dancing by moonlight to flamenco guitar.” ~ Janet Fitch

The Gweat and Tewwible Winged One
DragonLady is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 12:00 AM   #808
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,686
Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
I believe it's best to accept the accounts of alleged victims as a reason to investigate.

However, if no evidence is found to corroborate the stories, then it's just stories.

It's no different than ghost stories or bigfoot sightings or any other anecdote. It doesn't mean the person is lying; it just means there's no evidence.

Here in the USA one is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, and Jackson wasn't proven guilty of anything. He was investigated, prosecuted, and acquitted.
All good

He is dead anyway so it ain't like it means much

It will end up being one of those times when 90% of people realise what a sick kiddy fiddler **** he was given the multiple allegations, testimony, from his victims and Jackson's own staff, and the other 10% arguing he wasn't found guilty.

And everyone will forget about it in a couple of years.
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 12:02 AM   #809
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
 
a_unique_person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 41,052
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The problem is that both of them testified twice under oath in court that no abuse ever happened, and now are saying different for documentary where there is no consequences for not telling the truth.

So either they committed perjury, twice, or they are lying now. Either way it's not helpful for their credibility.

We also have to remember that a documentary crew can film and edit the testimony as much as they want to make sure it is convincing. Harder to do in a court of law with a lawyer questioning you.
Victims of sexual assault often don't want the shame and humiliation that comes from making their story public.
__________________
Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable.
For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes
a_unique_person is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 02:28 AM   #810
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 87,616
Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Are you referring to me?



I never claimed he was pure in any form; only that the evidence he molested children was scant at best -and he was ACQUITTED in court.



So far as "He's dead, so let's forget about it" I'm saying that because He is NO LONGER ABLE TO DEFEND HIMSELF.
That seems rather a strange metric to use, we should only criticise living people and simply shut up about the dead? I really don't think that is going to happen.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 02:37 AM   #811
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 9,777
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
But if he really was asexual, he wouldn't have had any pornography in his house, would he? But he had loads - I know there was no child pornography, but there was enough adult pornography to a least conclude that he was either using it himself, or, as is alleged, showing it to the children he was sleeping with.
That's a bit like saying someone with steak knives in their house is either using them to eat steak, or stab people.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 02:53 AM   #812
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 9,777
Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
It was a minor, It's a totp episode, check it out.
She - Sylvia Edwards - was not a minor, she was 18 at the time. Did he touch her up? It certainly looks like it, but it's a classic example of reporting bait-and-switch. The footage "emerged" before she was identified, and because the programme had a minimum age limit of 16 for audiences, the media were free to claim the victim "could" have been "underage." However, by the time she was identified and confirmed she was actually 18 at the time, the story that "Savile abused underage girl live on Top of the Pops in 1976" stuck.

"Underage" is, of course, not as simple as it seems now. In 1976 not only was the AoC in the UK was 16 (as it still is), but 16 and 17 years olds were appearing topless on page 3, or even fully nude in softcore magazines like Mayfair (editions which are now retrospectively illegal), well into the 1980s. Different times.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 12th March 2019 at 03:41 AM.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 03:34 AM   #813
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 9,777
Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Thanks. On a phone so can't get to link.
Probably for the best, given that it doesn't actually show what was claimed.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 04:10 AM   #814
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 6,898
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
That's a bit like saying someone with steak knives in their house is either using them to eat steak, or stab people.
It's a false dichotomy? I put two choices because one is the common use of the item in question, and the other is what is alleged by several victims. If there is a third or fourth possibility, please feel free to suggest what they might be.
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 04:36 AM   #815
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 21,487
If we take a Pascals Wager look at this, given that Jackson is dead, the cost of disbelieving a living victim and joining in the efforts to raise issues with their credibility seems higher than wrongly believing a possible opportunist. Not that that our opinions here amount to much of anything anyway.
__________________
'The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.' - Richard Feynman

Last edited by Sideroxylon; 12th March 2019 at 05:36 AM. Reason: Meaning
Sideroxylon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 04:48 AM   #816
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 38,370
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
No, a minor is incapable of informed consent. It is an easy, well explored concept with no need to check out evidence.
You misunderstood my question. p0lka is claiming a video confession of a crime. I'm not asking if it's really a crime. I'm asking if it's really a confession. Do you have a link to the supposed video?
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 05:09 AM   #817
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
 
a_unique_person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 41,052
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
She - Sylvia Edwards - was not a minor, she was 18 at the time. Did he touch her up? It certainly looks like it, but it's a classic example of reporting bait-and-switch. The footage "emerged" before she was identified, and because the programme had a minimum age limit of 16 for audiences, the media were free to claim the victim "could" have been "underage." However, by the time she was identified and confirmed she was actually 18 at the time, the story that "Savile abused underage girl live on Top of the Pops in 1976" stuck.



"Underage" is, of course, not as simple as it seems now. In 1976 not only was the AoC in the UK was 16 (as it still is), but 16 and 17 years olds were appearing topless on page 3, or even fully nude in softcore magazines like Mayfair (editions which are now retrospectively illegal), well into the 1980s. Different times.
Ok. I'm sorry. He only sexually assaulted an 18 year old girl. That's perfectly acceptable.
__________________
Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable.
For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes
a_unique_person is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 05:47 AM   #818
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 9,777
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
It's a false dichotomy? I put two choices because one is the common use of the item in question, and the other is what is alleged by several victims. If there is a third or fourth possibility, please feel free to suggest what they might be.
Given the degree to which supposed evidence against Jackson has been misrepresented and even falsified, and testimony apparently manipulated, I would take such claims years after the fact with a pinch of salt.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 05:49 AM   #819
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 9,777
Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Ok. I'm sorry. He only sexually assaulted an 18 year old girl. That's perfectly acceptable.
Not sure how you jump to that appeal to incredulity. I already said that it looks like he's touching her up (specifically putting his hand on her arse). If the phrase and its implications are unfamiliar to you, that's your own problem.

It is the case, though, that sexually assaulting a minor is treated more seriously in law and in society, so people should be wary of making demonstrably false accusations of such (some sources actually say she was 19, rather than 18).

Last edited by Information Analyst; 12th March 2019 at 06:02 AM.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 05:54 AM   #820
p0lka
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,635
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You misunderstood my question. p0lka is claiming a video confession of a crime. I'm not asking if it's really a crime. I'm asking if it's really a confession. Do you have a link to the supposed video?
Oh, I wasn't claiming a video confession of a crime, I was claiming a video of an alleged crime.

I was incorrect about the girls age though, as Information Analyst said she was an adult.

I found a clip of it on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxSnQ6K4guA

Last edited by p0lka; 12th March 2019 at 05:55 AM.
p0lka is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 05:54 AM   #821
Dr.Sid
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic
Posts: 2,047
As for the balcony .. we have nice bridge in our town. There are fish in the river bellow. You can see some dad showing the fish to baby every day, MJ style. Stupid ? Sure. Rare ? Not at all.
Dr.Sid is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 06:02 AM   #822
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 6,898
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Given the degree to which supposed evidence against Jackson has been misrepresented and even falsified, and testimony apparently manipulated, I would take such claims years after the fact with a pinch of salt.
I don't think I'm familiar with all this.

Anyway, you seem to be disagreeing for the sake of it, and I'm not sure why. My point was that it seems unlikely that Jackson was asexual. I think I'll stand by that.
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 06:05 AM   #823
Dr.Sid
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic
Posts: 2,047
As for the whole thing .. MJ certainly ticks all the boxes.
What bothers me is: why now, why using a movie ? And both has one simple answer: money. Now is great time for story like that. And a movie like this is imho guaranteed profit.
If they really were after justice, it would be earlier, at a court.
Dr.Sid is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 06:05 AM   #824
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 9,777
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
I don't think I'm familiar with all this.
Then you should read the HP article I linked to yesterday.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 06:11 AM   #825
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 6,898
That's exactly what I was basing my position on!

I mean, that's where I found the huge list of porn he had in his house

https://lacienegasmiled.wordpress.co...jacksons-porn/

which rather gives the lie to him being "asexual" wouldn't you agree?

Last edited by Matthew Best; 12th March 2019 at 06:14 AM. Reason: added link
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 06:14 AM   #826
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Arcadia, Greece
Posts: 25,380
Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
As for the balcony .. we have nice bridge in our town. There are fish in the river bellow. You can see some dad showing the fish to baby every day, MJ style. Stupid ? Sure. Rare ? Not at all.
By dangling the baby over the parapet? Are you serious?
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 06:43 AM   #827
Cavemonster
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,734
Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
As for the whole thing .. MJ certainly ticks all the boxes.
What bothers me is: why now, why using a movie ? And both has one simple answer: money. Now is great time for story like that. And a movie like this is imho guaranteed profit.
If they really were after justice, it would be earlier, at a court.
I have some possible answers to both questions.

Why now and not earlier? Why did victims of Catholic priests, Bill Cosby, Jimmy Saville etc etc etc all wait decades? It should not seem like an implausible thing to do.

There was a lot of money swirling around Jackson, a lot of people making money off of his bankability. I imagine one possibility is that speaking out more when he was alive might trigger some of those many people with a lot of money to spend to spend some of it on public campaigns attacking the character of these alleged victims. Such attack might likely lead to some scary harassment and threats, like just about every victim coming forward gets. I might imagine that the current me too era which began in earnest after Jackson's death helps too. And finally I think watching someone be canonized in death might trigger a desire for victims to correct the legacy.

Why a movie? Since you can't have a legal trial after death, the only thing that could be achieved would be bringing facts into public knowledge. So it could only be some piece of public facing media. I suppose it might have been some kind of media other than a movie, but we're splitting hairs at this point.
__________________
The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon.
-G.K. CHESTERTON
Cavemonster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 06:54 AM   #828
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 20,468
People get that if you're a victim and greedy you're still a victim, right?

Are there no dollar signs anywhere in any of the eyes of anyone accusing Jackson of something? Let's be realistic here of course there are.

What does that change though?
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 08:24 AM   #829
DragonLady
Illuminator
 
DragonLady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,319
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That seems rather a strange metric to use, we should only criticise living people and simply shut up about the dead? I really don't think that is going to happen.
I don't think it's right to just spread lies about anyone, living or dead.

But at least the living can defend themselves. Jackson did -successfully. He was acquitted because there was almost NO EVIDENCE he molested anyone.

There is NO NEW EVIDENCE now.

If someone brings forth some new evidence this happened, they can take it to civil court for a rightful judgment against the estate.

But that's not what's happening. It's just another tour down the same ol' road in a new vehicle.
__________________
http://www.troubador.co.uk/book_info.asp?bookid=2499

“She would be half a planet away, floating in a turquoise sea, dancing by moonlight to flamenco guitar.” ~ Janet Fitch

The Gweat and Tewwible Winged One
DragonLady is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 08:29 AM   #830
DragonLady
Illuminator
 
DragonLady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,319
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
People get that if you're a victim and greedy you're still a victim, right?

(snip)
Absolutely. Further, if you're genuinely a victim, with convincing evidence, you have a civil right to recompense, whether you're "greedy" or not.
__________________
http://www.troubador.co.uk/book_info.asp?bookid=2499

“She would be half a planet away, floating in a turquoise sea, dancing by moonlight to flamenco guitar.” ~ Janet Fitch

The Gweat and Tewwible Winged One
DragonLady is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 08:30 AM   #831
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 38,370
Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Oh, I wasn't claiming a video confession of a crime, I was claiming a video of an alleged crime.

I was incorrect about the girls age though, as Information Analyst said she was an adult.

I found a clip of it on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxSnQ6K4guA
I made a mistake. Two, actually. It was AUP who made the claim, not you. I got confused somewhere along the way. That was the first mistake.

AUP made two claims in the same post. One about Savile, the other about Trump. You and Sideroxylon went after the Savile claim. I was actually asking about the Trump claim, but I wasn't very clear. That was the second mistake. I apologize for the confusion.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 08:30 AM   #832
Dr.Sid
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic
Posts: 2,047
Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I have some possible answers to both questions.

Why now and not earlier? Why did victims of Catholic priests, Bill Cosby, Jimmy Saville etc etc etc all wait decades? It should not seem like an implausible thing to do.

There was a lot of money swirling around Jackson, a lot of people making money off of his bankability. I imagine one possibility is that speaking out more when he was alive might trigger some of those many people with a lot of money to spend to spend some of it on public campaigns attacking the character of these alleged victims. Such attack might likely lead to some scary harassment and threats, like just about every victim coming forward gets. I might imagine that the current me too era which began in earnest after Jackson's death helps too. And finally I think watching someone be canonized in death might trigger a desire for victims to correct the legacy.

Why a movie? Since you can't have a legal trial after death, the only thing that could be achieved would be bringing facts into public knowledge. So it could only be some piece of public facing media. I suppose it might have been some kind of media other than a movie, but we're splitting hairs at this point.
I don't think it's splitting hair. No other victim made a movie. They made public statement. Via newspaper, TV, or even just social media post.
Movie, even if movie like this can be done cheaply, is a project. Investment. Seems really weird to me.
Dr.Sid is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 08:33 AM   #833
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,869
Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
They've been speaking out for years. Has there been any new EVIDENCE brought forth at all?
Well witnesses involved in your favorite case saying they perjured themselves on the stand that he did not sexually abuse them? If they had been truthful then the case might have been a bit different.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 08:37 AM   #834
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,869
Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
I believe it's best to accept the accounts of alleged victims as a reason to investigate.

However, if no evidence is found to corroborate the stories, then it's just stories.

It's no different than ghost stories or bigfoot sightings or any other anecdote. It doesn't mean the person is lying; it just means there's no evidence.

Here in the USA one is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, and Jackson wasn't proven guilty of anything. He was investigated, prosecuted, and acquitted.
Yep the same kind of slander as the Pennsylvania's Roman Catholic Church report. Supposedly a thousand "victims" and only 3 indictments? Totally an effort to slander the reputation of the catholic church by those out to get money. Good people like priests and Michael Jackson don't sexually assault kids.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 08:40 AM   #835
DragonLady
Illuminator
 
DragonLady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,319
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Well witnesses involved in your favorite case saying they perjured themselves on the stand that he did not sexually abuse them? If they had been truthful then the case might have been a bit different.
Maybe they WERE truthful.

That's the problem with telling lies. After, no one knows what to believe, so we're all forced to disregard all the words & examine the EVIDENCE instead.
__________________
http://www.troubador.co.uk/book_info.asp?bookid=2499

“She would be half a planet away, floating in a turquoise sea, dancing by moonlight to flamenco guitar.” ~ Janet Fitch

The Gweat and Tewwible Winged One
DragonLady is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 08:41 AM   #836
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 51,315
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Well witnesses involved in your favorite case saying they perjured themselves on the stand that he did not sexually abuse them? If they had been truthful then the case might have been a bit different.
And to be fair you should factor in past witnesses who testified that they were abused, but later recanted and admitted they had committed perjury.

Assuming fairness is actually desired, of course. If the point of this thread is still assume guilt and discount all evidence to the contrary, then by all means let's continue with the 'but everybody knows!' and 'but look how weird he was!' and 'if you don't think he's guilty it's because you're a brainwashed fan!'
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 08:42 AM   #837
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,869
Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Maybe they WERE truthful.

That's the problem with telling lies. After, no one knows what to believe, so we're all forced to disregard all the words & examine the EVIDENCE instead.
Yep just like with the catholic church. I mean no one would credibly believe that someone wouldn't have reported their sexual abuse for decades, that is how we know that the catholic abuse didn't happen.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 08:43 AM   #838
DragonLady
Illuminator
 
DragonLady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,319
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yep the same kind of slander as the Pennsylvania's Roman Catholic Church report. Supposedly a thousand "victims" and only 3 indictments? Totally an effort to slander the reputation of the catholic church by those out to get money. Good people like priests and Michael Jackson don't sexually assault kids.
Three indictments because there is enough evidence for three.
If the evidence supported 300, there would be 300.
If the evidence supported 3000, there would be 3000.

But how many of these thousands of "victims" have previously had a day in court and claimed nothing happened?
__________________
http://www.troubador.co.uk/book_info.asp?bookid=2499

“She would be half a planet away, floating in a turquoise sea, dancing by moonlight to flamenco guitar.” ~ Janet Fitch

The Gweat and Tewwible Winged One
DragonLady is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 08:46 AM   #839
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,869
Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Three indictments because there is enough evidence for three.
If the evidence supported 300, there would be 300.
If the evidence supported 3000, there would be 3000.
Allow me to introduce you to a concept called Statute of Limitations. See in Pennsylvania once the victim turns 50 all the child rape in the world becomes totally legal. The priests could brag about how many kids they raped back in the day and it would not cause a single indictment. This is why the catholic church fights attempts to extend the statute of limitations on child rape, very successfully so far.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 08:48 AM   #840
DragonLady
Illuminator
 
DragonLady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,319
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Allow me to introduce you to a concept called Statute of Limitations. See in Pennsylvania once the victim turns 50 all the child rape in the world becomes totally legal. The priests could brag about how many kids they raped back in the day and it would not cause a single indictment. This is why the catholic church fights attempts to extend the statute of limitations on child rape, very successfully so far.
Conceded.

But, my point stands: the victims of the Catholic priests did not sit in a courtroom and claim nothing happened under oath, only to repeatedly put themselves in the spotlight later by selling sordid tales to the contrary for thousands of dollars.
__________________
http://www.troubador.co.uk/book_info.asp?bookid=2499

“She would be half a planet away, floating in a turquoise sea, dancing by moonlight to flamenco guitar.” ~ Janet Fitch

The Gweat and Tewwible Winged One
DragonLady is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:49 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.