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Tags michael jackson , sex scandals

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Old 12th March 2019, 04:42 PM   #881
a_unique_person
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Opinion: The psychological reason some people can't believe the evidence against Pell and Jackson
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-1...nance/10892948
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Old 12th March 2019, 04:44 PM   #882
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
The USA version of justice demands that if someone isn't guilty beyond reasonable doubt, they're not guilty. Period.

I think I'm most upset because it seems so very, very unjust. I know the man was wealthy beyond words, and I know there are many who think he deserved an equal amount of pain and heartbreak as counter balance.

But I just never did, and if I'm really honest, I guess I don't want to think that if one of my children or grandchildren ever see his kind of success the world will pull them down the same way -just because it can.
Well, as long as they don't molest anyone they will be fine, don't worry about it.
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Old 12th March 2019, 04:46 PM   #883
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Maybe you could deign to offer some miserable enlightenment.
Certainly. It's patently obvious that you and a number of others need some: As DragonLady noted in post 766, it's trivially easy to construct a false narrative by intentionally or unintentionally leaving out a few key facts or points of context. I wasn't even really trying previously. Here, I can do better:

Some things I've done: Rubbed the penis of a non-consenting old man; who was visibly uncomfortable with the experience. Watched several young, underage girls masturbate. Inserted foreign objects into the vaginas of several young, underage girls. Sent pictures of a naked little boy to a friend of mine. Sounds pretty terrible, right? It's all true...

The fact of the matter is that if you believe something along the lines of Arcade22's assertions in post 711:
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
It's perfectly nice and wholesome to sleep in the same bed as a young boy. Not out of necessity mind you, but simply because it's so nice to touch, smell and feel them. No one should hesitate to leave their kids completely alone with a person who admitted doing so. Just like i wouldn't suspect someones wife or husband of infidelity if they were to sleep together with someone other than their spouse. There's no reason to assume that it isn't perfectly innocent.
...then, given that 1) the accusations against Jackson were widely publicized and span more than a decade, 2) a fair few of Jackson's guests were wealthy and powerful themselves or had wealthy and powerful guardians and 3) the fact that no parent in their right mind would stand for behavior such as described in the above quote...

...the obviously and overwhelmingly likely conclusion is that you're missing important details. Not that Jackson must clearly have used his position and influence to extort compliance or thwart the cause of justice.

Contrast this to the number of fictions the public has commonly held regarding Jackson. Some examples: Jackson "bleaching" his face to look more white as opposed to having a skin disorder (despite photographic proof of the latter); exaggeration of Jackson's supposed facial surgery. Jackson being asexual; or whatever William Parcher seems to think in post 715 (presuming that's not intentional hyberbole) - as several of his former employees describe him has having had frequent relationships or at least liasons with adult, heterosexual women. IIRC someone linked to a bodyguard's account of this somewhere in this thread prior to it's most recent resurrection.

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Old 12th March 2019, 04:47 PM   #884
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Imagine that you were raped, the case went to trial, and because it couldn't be proved beyond reasonable doubt, your rapist was acquitted.

Would you believe that he was not, in any meaningful sense of the term, guilty of raping you?
No; but I would not expect the entire rest of the world to treat that person as if he had been convicted.

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There is a legal construct of guilt, which allows governments to levy punishment, and there is the social, everyday notion of guilt, which asks the question of what we have good reason to believe has happened.
Okay.

Do you believe both constructs should require at least some kind of real evidence?
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Old 12th March 2019, 04:52 PM   #885
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
First, I'm not sure how this relates to my point. I was simply addressing that Dragonlady was equivocating between layperson's use of "guilty" and the legal status.

But to answer your question, while "know" may be an overly strong word, I can find it highly likely that someone committed a crime they were acquitted for. In fact, the people who acquitted any particular accused person may well agree that it is highly likely the accused committed the crime, but that it didn't rise to "beyond a reasonable doubt".

Acquittal does not mean they disagree on that point.

Do some folks hyperbolize a situation they find highly likely into something they "know"? Yes, it happens and I find it annoying.
Jackson was tried for 12? counts? (Ugh. I guess I really have to go reread a lot of the details because I've forgotten so much), and a couple of them were misdemeanors. If the jury thought he was guilty of something they could've at least found him "guilty" of one of them. But they didn't. He was acquitted on all the counts.
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Old 12th March 2019, 04:52 PM   #886
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Do you believe both constructs should require at least some kind of real evidence?
I think that some crimes, like rape and molestation can easily leave no physical evidence available to the public and law enforcement, so testimony, credibility and patterns of behavior may be what we have to work with.

I believe that in some cases it is reasonable to believe testimony and that failing to meet the very high standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt" should not mean we throw up our hands and ignore the testimony available.
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Old 12th March 2019, 04:54 PM   #887
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Well, as long as they don't molest anyone they will be fine, don't worry about it.
Sorry, but for your post to work you have to accept Jackson is guilty as charged.

If he did not, in fact, do the things he's been accused of, then every person on the planet should be worried about it.
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Old 12th March 2019, 04:54 PM   #888
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Jackson was tried for 12? counts? (Ugh. I guess I really have to go reread a lot of the details because I've forgotten so much), and a couple of them were misdemeanors. If the jury thought he was guilty of something they could've at least found him "guilty" of one of them. But they didn't. He was acquitted on all the counts.
Their instructions are to find him guilty only if there is no reasonable room for doubt. The number of charges are irrelevant, the standard applies to all of them and it's a much higher standard than we use to feel pretty strongly that someone did something terrible.
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Old 12th March 2019, 04:56 PM   #889
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I think that some crimes, like rape and molestation can easily leave no physical evidence available to the public and law enforcement, so testimony, credibility and patterns of behavior may be what we have to work with.

I believe that in some cases it is reasonable to believe testimony and that failing to meet the very high standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt" should not mean we throw up our hands and ignore the testimony available.
Okay. I think we're on the same page.

So what happens when the testimony is found to lack credibility and the people testifying fall apart on cross examination?

I admit: I never read the trial transcripts. But I did pay enough attention when all this was happening to know that by the time it was over the jury believed the only people telling the truth were some guys from the phone company.
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Old 12th March 2019, 04:59 PM   #890
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Opinion: The psychological reason some people can't believe the evidence against Pell and Jackson
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-1...nance/10892948
I'll read your link later.

The trouble is: I do believe the evidence. I believe the evidence exonerates Jackson.

(I don't know about Pell, and really don't care much)

ETA:

I believe the evidence, as it has been presented, fails to prove Jackson did anything wrong. However, someone, somewhere could change my mind by presenting new or better (more credible) evidence to the contrary.

I don't think we can ever truly know what happens between other people behind closed doors, or the inner workings of the relationships between other people. We have to rely on the physical, tangible proofs that are put in front of us, and on the testimonies of those who have previously shown themselves to be honest -or at least have not said or done things to make them appear to be untruthful. In this case, as presented, I don't think Jackson was guilty.
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Old 12th March 2019, 05:05 PM   #891
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Okay. I think we're on the same page.

So what happens when the testimony is found to lack credibility and the people testifying fall apart on cross examination?

I admit: I never read the trial transcripts. But I did pay enough attention when all this was happening to know that by the time it was over the jury believed the only people telling the truth were some guys from the phone company.
I'll be honest, I'm not really commenting on the specifics of the case, I'm still reading up on it. Take my comments as pertaining to the tools we're using to evaluate the case.
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Old 12th March 2019, 05:08 PM   #892
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Sorry, but for your post to work you have to accept Jackson is guilty as charged.

If he did not, in fact, do the things he's been accused of, then every person on the planet should be worried about it.
Oh, ok well as long as they don't get themselves in a position where they are saying (as an adult) that it's ok to sleep with minors in a bed together, then they will probably be fine.
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Old 12th March 2019, 05:14 PM   #893
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Oh, ok well as long as they don't get themselves in a position where they are saying (as an adult) that it's ok to sleep with minors in a bed together, then they will probably be fine.
I have long maintained Jackson had boundary issues. I think that interview really brought out all of his eccentricities, and left people feeling completely unable to relate to him.

If he did not, in fact, molest anyone talking to that reporter was probably the worst mistake of his life.
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Old 12th March 2019, 05:28 PM   #894
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
The fact of the matter is that if you believe something along the lines of Arcade22's assertions in post 711:
...then, given that 1) the accusations against Jackson were widely publicized and span more than a decade, 2) a fair few of Jackson's guests were wealthy and powerful themselves or had wealthy and powerful guardians and 3) the fact that no parent in their right mind would stand for behavior such as described in the above quote...
Go ahead and watch the documentary "Leaving Neverland".

Michael Jackson isn't accused of just a one time "inappropriate" and "easily misunderstood" act that can be excused by childhood trauma or lack of mental maturity, rather his behavior comes off as a perfect example of grooming.

I'd be shocked if there's an innocent explanation for his strong desire to have a young boy remain with him at the Neverland Ranch, while sleeping together in the same bedroom, when the rest of his family were about to go back home to Australia. He maintained close telephone contact with his "boyfriend" when they finally left and even faxed written letters where he said he loved him, wanted him to come visit again very soon and so forth.
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Old 12th March 2019, 05:32 PM   #895
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Quote:
even faxed written letters where he said he loved him,

Are those letters available somewhere?
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Old 12th March 2019, 06:12 PM   #896
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
The USA version of justice demands that if someone isn't guilty beyond reasonable doubt, they're not guilty. Period.
You are talking about criminal justice where everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, even if they stabbed someone to death in-front of 20 witnesses.

I don't have to wait until they are legally found guilty before i conclude that they killed someone. If they died before a trial was held i wouldn't somehow convince myself to declare that they didn't kill someone because they weren't convicted of it. Hell even if they were formally declared innocent of murder because they are totally insane and can't be held legally accountable for their actions i still would say they killed someone.

Quote:
I think I'm most upset because it seems so very, very unjust. I know the man was wealthy beyond words, and I know there are many who think he deserved an equal amount of pain and heartbreak as counter balance.

But I just never did, and if I'm really honest, I guess I don't want to think that if one of my children or grandchildren ever see his kind of success the world will pull them down the same way -just because it can.
This isn't about justice for me. It's not about "righting wrongs" or holding people to account for their actions. Michael Jackson is dead and he's not going to be resurrected anytime soon and even if he was i could hardly care if he got punished. What i care about is the truth. People need to take some incredible leaps of faith to conclude that he likely didn't, or even that he certainly did not, sexually abuse children. Not unlike how people somehow convince themselves that Trump's "locker-room talk" was just innocent banter.
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Old 12th March 2019, 06:19 PM   #897
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
You are talking about criminal justice where everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, even if they stabbed someone to death in-front of 20 witnesses.

I don't have to wait until they are legally found guilty before i conclude that they killed someone. If they died before a trial was held i wouldn't somehow convince myself to declare that they didn't kill someone because they weren't convicted of it. Hell even if they were formally declared innocent of murder because they are totally insane and can't be held legally accountable for their actions i still would say they killed someone.



This isn't about justice for me. It's not about "righting wrongs" or holding people to account for their actions. Michael Jackson is dead and he's not going to be resurrected anytime soon and even if he was i could hardly care if he got punished. What i care about is the truth. People need to take some incredible leaps of faith to conclude that he likely, or even that he certainly did not, sexually abuse children. Not unlike how people somehow convince themselves that Trump's "locker-room talk" was just innocent banter.
On the other hand, it looks like people are taking some leaps of faith to declare he likely, or even certainly, did abuse children. Because what evidence there is points the other way. A msssive, well-funded, well-run prosecution couldn't prove it. Yet some random people who know only what they've read know better than the jury who actually received all the evidence?

People were pretty damn certain Alfred Dreyfus was guilty. It seemed so obvious at the time, based on what they heard, based on what they believed "likely".
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Old 12th March 2019, 06:19 PM   #898
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Quote:
I don't have to wait until they are legally found guilty before i conclude that they killed someone. If they died before a trial was held i wouldn't somehow convince myself to declare that they didn't kill someone because they weren't convicted of it.
As a matter of your individual opinion, I'm fine with that. But in MJ's case, it's every mainstream news outlet jumping on every chance to report whatever lurid details they find, without presenting much -or even any- of the rebuttal evidence.

Quote:
What i care about is the truth.
Good. Something we can agree on. The truth is important.
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Old 12th March 2019, 06:24 PM   #899
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All people involved in this discussion here are faced with a situation where certain knowledge is impossible and must make a “faith” judgment, being of a standard of evidence much less than we would hold scientific claims to. For me the cost of denying the testimony of an accuser is much greater.
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Old 12th March 2019, 06:27 PM   #900
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
As a matter of your individual opinion, I'm fine with that. But in MJ's case, it's every mainstream news outlet jumping on every chance to report whatever lurid details they find, without presenting much -or even any- of the rebuttal evidence.
Literally. The press left the court before the cross-examinations, because they wanted to report the lurid testimony asap. Then when the witnesses fell apart it wasn't reported. Those who actually stayed in court to hear the whole thing weren't surprised at the verdict.
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Old 12th March 2019, 06:29 PM   #901
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
All people involved in this discussion here are faced with a situation where certain knowledge is impossible and must make a “faith” judgment, being of a standard of evidence much less than we would hold scientific claims to. For me the cost of denying the testimony of an accuser is much greater.
Does God exist? If you're willing to guess on "faith" in criminal matters, why not theological ones? I assume you don't require any more proof for God's existence than you do for Jackson's guilt. Or do you? Do you pick and choose which assertions you believe without evidence?
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Old 12th March 2019, 06:31 PM   #902
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Does God exist? If you're willing to guess on "faith" in criminal matters, why not theological ones? I assume you don't require any more proof for God's existence than you do for Jackson's guilt. Or do you? Do you pick and choose which assertions you believe without evidence?
We all pick and choose in situations like this, including on God. #existentialism

ETA: And not in an absence of evidence either. We choose from competing narratives. i have suggested before that the cost of disbelief in an victims testimony comes with a higher cost.

In addition, pointing out the accusations were once retracted or cynical assertions that the accusations have been made for financial gain are no evidence at all to not belive the accusers. It wont stop them being used here or by those interested in his estate or reputation.
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Old 12th March 2019, 06:39 PM   #903
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
We all pick and choose in situations like this, including on God. #existentialism
No, we don't all do that. Some of us have no problem admitting we do not know something. If there isn't evidence for something of importance I don't guess whether it's true or false, I withhold judgment until evidence becomes available. I would have thought that would be the natural skeptical position. And that claiming knowledge where one doesn't have it is intellectually dishonest.

Guessing based on feelings is as valid as flipping a coin.
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Old 12th March 2019, 06:52 PM   #904
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
No, we don't all do that. Some of us have no problem admitting we do not know something. If there isn't evidence for something of importance I don't guess whether it's true or false, I withhold judgment until evidence becomes available. I would have thought that would be the natural skeptical position. And that claiming knowledge where one doesn't have it is intellectually dishonest.

Guessing based on feelings is as valid as flipping a coin.
We do. Not one of us in this discussion has any privileged knowledge that could answer the question of his innocence or guilt with “certainty”. I do think accusations should carry a great deal of weight in circumstances like this. Rapists and abusers, particularly those greatly advantaged by social power differencials (child/adult, wealthy celebrity/ordinary public), thrive in the doubt set by an environment of an evidence bar that can never be reached.

The varying standards of evidence we demand for belief are contextual in practice and necessarily.
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Old 12th March 2019, 07:00 PM   #905
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
We do. Not one of us in this discussion has any privileged knowledge that could answer the question of his innocence or guilt with “certainty”. I do think accusations should carry a great deal of weight in circumstances like this. Rapists and abusers, particularly those greatly advantaged by social power differencials (child/adult, wealthy celebrity/ordinary public), thrive in the doubt set by an environment of an evidence bar that can never be reached.

The varying standards of evidence we demand for belief are contextual in practice and necessarily.
I see. Evidence doesn't matter if the accusation is dreadful enough. Ever read "The Crucible"? Lies thrive in the doubt set by an environment of an evidence bar that is nonexistent.
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Old 12th March 2019, 07:09 PM   #906
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I see. Evidence doesn't matter if the accusation is dreadful enough. Ever read "The Crucible"? Lies thrive in the doubt set by an environment of an evidence bar that is nonexistent.
I think these kind of restatments of your interlocutor’s opions traditionally start with “so” around here.
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Old 12th March 2019, 07:10 PM   #907
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
I think these kind of restatments of your interlocutor’s opions traditionally start with “so” around here.
Tradition, for skeptics, also used to privilege evidence over feelings and guessing. Things have changed, apparently.
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Old 12th March 2019, 07:20 PM   #908
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One of the problems with this whole story now is that so much has been written and said it's hard to weed through it all now to make a cogent case.

Here is a page fairly succinctly detailing many problems with the claims being made in the documentary (which I still haven't seen) that are being repeated all over the internet.
https://www.lipstickalley.com/thread...chuck.2212533/

I'm not sure how many hours I really want to devote to trying to reacquaint myself with the facts of the case, or the newest allegations. I do have a few links I'll try to read through, and I will try to watch the show (I don't have HBO anymore), and then decide if anything really causes me new doubts.
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Old 12th March 2019, 07:42 PM   #909
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Tradition, for skeptics, also used to privilege evidence over feelings and guessing. Things have changed, apparently.
I have not suggested we should privilege feelings over evidence.
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Last edited by Sideroxylon; 12th March 2019 at 08:06 PM. Reason: Meaning reversed
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Old 12th March 2019, 08:09 PM   #910
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
I have not suggested we should privilege evidence over feelings.
And, tbf, there ARE some new wrinkles. Jackson starts to visit Jimmy Safechuck at home just to hang out with him and (presumably) make the parents trust him more. Safechuck's mother, on their first trip to Hawaii with Jackson, did not allow Jimmy to sleep with Jackson.

https://screenrant.com/leaving-never...ntary-reveals/
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Old 12th March 2019, 08:30 PM   #911
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Here’s where I stand. I think that the two men in the documentary lay out a pretty credible story of a relationship they had with Michael Jackson. I cannot know for sure that MJ abused them. What I can say is that he was allowed to have a highly unusual and intimate relationship with prepubescent boys. It’s a pattern he repeated over and over. It’s true that he has been accused and acquitted. But so was OJ.

MJ had creepy relationships with boys that were only possible because he was MJ. I believe that the nature and frequency of those relationships makes it more likely than not that his accusers were actually telling the truth. I think the details and documentation of this particular documentary make it even more likely.


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Old 12th March 2019, 09:10 PM   #912
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I don't think repeating something over and over makes it any more -or less- likely to be true.

There are two sides to every story, each just as credible as the other.
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Old 12th March 2019, 09:20 PM   #913
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
I don't think repeating something over and over makes it any more -or less- likely to be true.

There are two sides to every story, each just as credible as the other.
I find it hard to think that anything Michael Jackson said in his later years was credible. The man was a drug addled fantasist surrounded by grifters who fawned over him.
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Old 12th March 2019, 09:28 PM   #914
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I'm of two minds about this. We can certainly say that MJ was very odd, and suspect many things. And he would not be the first person to get away with outrageous behavior through a combination of money, litigiousness, bravado, lies and confusion. But one can also imagine variations. Imagine for example that you're MJ. You're surpassingly, flamboyantly peculiar, rich, so popular you can do almost anything you want, immature, emotionally needy, etc. etc. - definitely not an ordinary guy. You might even be a pedophile, in your inner self, and wish like anything that you could get away with having sex with boys. But you also might know you can''t, and know where the boundaries are, and figure that it's enough not to cross them even if you come close, and to be fairly open and public about what you're doing. Unfortunately for him, his situation makes things look different. I think it remains possible that the reason no charges stuck is that he did not actually cross the line, even though outside observers might easily be right in believing that he would have liked to.

It's not that far fetched. We judge much behavior by our assumptions. Often our fears are warranted, and our assumptions reasonable or at least forgiveable even if they turn out to be wrong.

It's a well trodden path, for example, in the literature of psychology, where the behavior of a person is seen entirely differently when that person is first presumed to be insane. Things we normally do are interpreted as symptomatic of abormality.

When a mother acts in a certain way with a child, it's seen differently from when a strange man does the very same thing, and we're well advised to be suspicious, but every once in a while it's not what it seems.

I still wouldn't let any kid of mine spend the night in Michael Jackson's bedroom, and I wouldn't be surprised if he turned out to be a just plain child molester and as awful as many believe. But I wouldn't rule out the possibility that he was not.
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Old 12th March 2019, 09:41 PM   #915
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
I haven't read it yet, but this site has been touted as a fairly detailed rebuttal to many of the claims made in the new documentary, for those who are interested:

https://themichaeljacksonallegations...ing-neverland/
I read a bit and glanced through the site. It uses ample and cited documents pointing out at least some troubling inconsistencies in the men’s stories.
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Old 12th March 2019, 09:43 PM   #916
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Quote:
I still wouldn't let any kid of mine spend the night in Michael Jackson's bedroom,
I think, no matter which side of this debate one is on, it all starts right there. None of this would be under discussion if parents had insisted on drawing reasonable limits and prevented the kids from spending time alone with a man they did not know.
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Old 12th March 2019, 09:49 PM   #917
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
I read a bit and glanced through the site. It uses ample and cited documents pointing out at least some troubling inconsistencies in the men’s stories.
I'm reading through that page now. It's actually part of a much larger site, with a LOT of information about all the different cases.

It does seem to only present the one side (pro Jackson).
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Old 12th March 2019, 09:56 PM   #918
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
I think, no matter which side of this debate one is on, it all starts right there. None of this would be under discussion if parents had insisted on drawing reasonable limits and prevented the kids from spending time alone with a man they did not know.
Why do you think they didn’t?
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Old 12th March 2019, 10:09 PM   #919
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Why do you think they didn’t?

Well, the human in me says they might have just been star struck. I'm not, really, so I can't speak to how that might feel or cause one to behave, but can imagine it might lead to poor judgement.

The parent in me says it was because the kids begged to be allowed to stay, there were other people in the room, and pedophiles are pretty rare despite constantly being in the news.

The cynic in me says they saw the potential for a golden goose egg in the future.

Why do YOU think they did that?
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Old 12th March 2019, 10:09 PM   #920
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
On the other hand, it looks like people are taking some leaps of faith to declare he likely, or even certainly, did abuse children. Because what evidence there is points the other way.
I can't agree with that. What evidence there is heavily suggests that Jackson was a pedophile who knowingly crossed many boundaries and engaged in textbook grooming behavior with his alleged victims. It is a fact that molestation couldn't be proven to a court standard, but it's a stretch to go from that to "the evidence points the other way". It doesn't - it points right at Jackson being an abuser, it was just too circumstantial to support a conviction.
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