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Tags Iowa politics , racism charges , racism issues , republicans , Steve King , white nationalism , white nationalists

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Old 12th November 2018, 08:35 AM   #201
baron
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Well, one thing you're not doing is "propagating a logical argument."



Why?
Why would you imagine? **** hole nations are often war-torn and host to terrorists, militias and other groupings with criminal motives, and those who have little concept of how to exist as a part of civilised culture. Therefore checks on people wanting to immigrate from such countries need to be more stringent, and the implications of said immigration closely scrutinised.

3...2...1...
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Old 12th November 2018, 08:52 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Why would you imagine? **** hole nations are often war-torn and host to terrorists, militias and other groupings with criminal motives, and those who have little concept of how to exist as a part of civilised culture. Therefore checks on people wanting to immigrate from such countries need to be more stringent, and the implications of said immigration closely scrutinised.

3...2...1...
In other words, chauvinistic and xenophobic discrimination toward stereotyped people. Thanks for clearing that up.
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Old 12th November 2018, 08:58 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Why would you imagine? **** hole nations are often war-torn and host to terrorists, militias and other groupings with criminal motives, and those who have little concept of how to exist as a part of civilised culture. Therefore checks on people wanting to immigrate from such countries need to be more stringent, and the implications of said immigration closely scrutinised.

3...2...1...
1. The two countries Trump specifically referred to were Haiti and El Salvador. Then generally about "African countries." Neither Haiti nor El Salvador is war torn, nor are they host to terrorists by any standard that you cannot also apply to the US. So the specific value of Trump's declaration is zero

2. As to the general claim you make here,i.e., that "******** countries" applies to countries that are war-torn or host terrorists, etc...", you might have a point, though a limited one, but it is a strawman. "We don't want anyone from Country X" is entirely different from "Country X has Problems A, B, and C; therefore we need to ensure those problems do not follow with potential immigrants; therefore we need stringent security measures."

I would argue greatly about the details of that second statement, but it's a legitimate position. The first, however, is not, and it is what is being decried here.
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Old 12th November 2018, 08:58 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
In other words, chauvinistic and xenophobic discrimination toward stereotyped people. Thanks for clearing that up.
People may not believe me, but I have not paid WilliamSeger a penny to validate everything I have said in this thread prior to my last post.
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Old 12th November 2018, 09:03 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Why would you imagine? **** hole nations are often war-torn and host to terrorists, militias and other groupings with criminal motives, and those who have little concept of how to exist as a part of civilised culture. Therefore checks on people wanting to immigrate from such countries need to be more stringent, and the implications of said immigration closely scrutinised.

3...2...1...
so, the most enterprising people in a war-torn country who want to break out of the circle of violence and actual create something constructive and lasting are the ones you want to prevent from leaving?
The kind of people who can create some wealth to later rebuild their nation and in the meantime help us understand how to best support peace efforts?

You haven't thought this through.
More importantly, you have zero clue about how incredibly stringent and thorough US screening already is.
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Old 12th November 2018, 09:08 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
1. The two countries Trump specifically referred to were Haiti and El Salvador. Then generally about "African countries." Neither Haiti nor El Salvador is war torn, nor are they host to terrorists by any standard that you cannot also apply to the US. So the specific value of Trump's declaration is zero
I don't care about Trump, he's an idiot, but El Salvador is the murder capital of the world. Whilst you're correct it's not war torn the gang warfare produces a body count in excess of most countries that are. This is exactly the kind of country from which immigrants should be put under serious scrutiny before being allowed in.

Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
2. As to the general claim you make here,i.e., that "******** countries" applies to countries that are war-torn or host terrorists, etc...", you might have a point, though a limited one, but it is a strawman. "We don't want anyone from Country X" is entirely different from "Country X has Problems A, B, and C; therefore we need to ensure those problems do not follow with potential immigrants; therefore we need stringent security measures."
I don't agree with the idea that "We don't want anyone from Country X", it's a broadly unproductive mindset. However, I do know that countries have limited resource, even (especially?) the US, and that if a country is to help refugees as opposed to migrants with other motivations then it needs to make those choices deliberately and carefully.
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Old 12th November 2018, 09:10 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
so, the most enterprising people in a war-torn country who want to break out of the circle of violence and actual create something constructive and lasting are the ones you want to prevent from leaving?
Maybe someone else said this, but I did not.

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The kind of people who can create some wealth to later rebuild their nation and in the meantime help us understand how to best support peace efforts?
Nope, still not me.

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
More importantly, you have zero clue about how incredibly stringent and thorough US screening already is.
Why would you make that random assumption? Is this another thing you made up?
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Old 12th November 2018, 09:22 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I don't care about Trump, he's an idiot, but El Salvador is the murder capital of the world. Whilst you're correct it's not war torn the gang warfare produces a body count in excess of most countries that are. This is exactly the kind of country from which immigrants should be put under serious scrutiny before being allowed in.
That falls under your "criminal groupings" then. Got it. And your fear is that it is the members of those groupings who are seeking access to the United States through attempts at legal immigration, that we do not want people from those groupings because they have no idea how to conduct themselves in a civilized society, and that current immigration screening is insufficient to detect them?


Originally Posted by baron
I don't agree with the idea that "We don't want anyone from Country X", it's a broadly unproductive mindset. However, I do know that countries have limited resource, even (especially?) the US, and that if a country is to help refugees as opposed to migrants with other motivations then it needs to make those choices deliberately and carefully.
No problem with that as a concept; I've said it myself before. The difficulty is in the details which are too often simply an implementation of that unproductive mindset even if purportedly not motivated by it.
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Old 12th November 2018, 09:57 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
However, I do know that countries have limited resource, even (especially?) the US, . . .
The loudest xenophobes here in the States are also the loudest champions of our booming economy. If we can't absorb a few thousand refugees now then when can we?

(Note that we've taken in nowhere near our share from Syria, etc. compared to our NATO allies.)
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Old 12th November 2018, 10:00 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
The loudest xenophobes here in the States are also the loudest champions of our booming economy. If we can't absorb a few thousand refugees now then when can we?

(Note that we've taken in nowhere near our share from Syria, etc. compared to our NATO allies.)
And the West takes in very few compared to neighbouring countries that are far poorer.
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Old 12th November 2018, 11:30 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by baron View Post

Why would you make that random assumption? Is this another thing you made up?
If you knew about US refugee procedures, you would know that they are possibly the toughest in the world.
And we can see that in the fact that of all demographics, they are by far the least likely to commit crimes in the US.

But hey, you know best, right?
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Old 12th November 2018, 12:13 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
People may not believe me, but I have not paid WilliamSeger a penny to validate everything I have said in this thread prior to my last post.
You're welcome! I thought you were denying being a racist.
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Old 12th November 2018, 12:14 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
If you knew about US refugee procedures, you would know that they are possibly the toughest in the world.
What has that got to do with what I wrote?

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
And we can see that in the fact that of all demographics, they are by far the least likely to commit crimes in the US.
Really?

2010. Inmates in adult facilities, by race and ethnicity. Jails, and state and federal prisons.
Race ethnicity%US population% U.S. incarcerated population% of racial group
White (non-Hispanic)64390.45
Hispanic16190.831
Black13402.306

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
But hey, you know best, right?
Looks that way.
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Old 12th November 2018, 12:16 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
You're welcome! I thought you were denying being a racist.
Did you? That's fascinating.
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Old 12th November 2018, 12:19 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
What has that got to do with what I wrote?



Really?

2010. Inmates in adult facilities, by race and ethnicity. Jails, and state and federal prisons.
Race ethnicity%US population% U.S. incarcerated population% of racial group
White (non-Hispanic)64390.45
Hispanic16190.831
Black13402.306



Looks that way.
Try again. This time without something that tends to confirm the diagnosis of racist by suggesting that all Hispanics are immigrants.
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Old 12th November 2018, 12:22 PM   #216
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another one who doesn't know the difference between refugee, migrant and people with a migratory background ...
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Old 12th November 2018, 12:23 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
Try again. This time without something that tends to confirm the diagnosis of racist by suggesting that all Hispanics are immigrants.
Refugees.
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Old 12th November 2018, 12:24 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Did you? That's fascinating.
Yes, my mistake -- I see now that what you are really arguing is that racism is perfectly logical.
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Old 12th November 2018, 12:24 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Refugees.
I'll accept an either/or, sure.
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Old 12th November 2018, 12:31 PM   #220
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I wasn't quibbling with you; it's baron that conflated an ethnic background with a political immigration status.

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
If you knew about US refugee procedures, you would know that they are possibly the toughest in the world.
And we can see that in the fact that of all demographics, they are by far the least likely to commit crimes in the US.

But hey, you know best, right?
Originally Posted by baron View Post
What has that got to do with what I wrote?



Really?

2010. Inmates in adult facilities, by race and ethnicity. Jails, and state and federal prisons.
Race ethnicity%US population% U.S. incarcerated population% of racial group
White (non-Hispanic)64390.45
Hispanic16190.831
Black13402.306



Looks that way.
Refugees are not necessarily Hispanic.
People of Hispanic descent are not necessarily (or even most often) immigrants.
Immigrants are not necessarily (or even mostly) refugees.
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Old 12th November 2018, 12:36 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
Try again. This time without something that tends to confirm the diagnosis of racist by suggesting that all Hispanics are immigrants.
You just couldn't resist. Well done on the two previous posts, though, someone with less experience of this forum might have imagined you were interested in discussion.

But wait, I'll tell you what just might be racist...

The assumption that newly immigrated Hispanics commit crime at a vastly lower rate than settled Hispanics.

Yeah, now that sounds like a contender.
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Old 12th November 2018, 12:39 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I wasn't quibbling with you; it's baron that conflated an ethnic background with a political immigration status.
First, those figures are not available so I went with a more generic set.

Second, what about the original claim that 'they' (people from violent and war torn countries) are by far the least likely to commit crime in the US.

Apparently such brazen statements can be made and accepted without a shred of evidence.
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Old 12th November 2018, 12:42 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
You just couldn't resist. Well done on the two previous posts, though, someone with less experience of this forum might have imagined you were interested in discussion.

But wait, I'll tell you what just might be racist...

The assumption that newly immigrated Hispanics commit crime at a vastly lower rate than settled Hispanics.

Yeah, now that sounds like a contender.
The inability to resist was yours, but if it was only a mistake I will accept a correction. Did your posted table, in the context in which you posted it, imply or not imply that all Hispanics are refugees (or immigrants or combination thereof)?

If not, then why post it?

If so, then how is my response wrong?

If you think my response is wrong because I assumed "that newly immigrated HIspanics commit crime at a vastly lower rate than settled Hispanics" your attempted refutation here fails. This isn't my first rode on this topic, and I had numbers easily to hand. Care to take a whack at finding them yourself?

As to legitimate discussion and my desires for it: I'm always up for it. Still am, even here, but what's really going in is that you are taking any reasoning that looks bad for your position as a biased attack.
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Old 12th November 2018, 12:56 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
First, those figures are not available so I went with a more generic set.

Second, what about the original claim that 'they' (people from violent and war torn countries) are by far the least likely to commit crime in the US.

Apparently such brazen statements can be made and accepted without a shred of evidence.
Here are some crime stats on cities which accepted the most refugees from such areas for a decade or so. The city in Massachusetts was apparently experiencing some other factors which drove violent crime rates up. We don't have any evidence for refugees being prone to crime in America. If you have some evidence, please post it.

http://research.newamericaneconomy.o...merate-fb3.png



I regularly used to interact with many refugees from war-torn Bosnia, and they weren't known for much of a crime problem.
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Old 12th November 2018, 12:57 PM   #225
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So I guess the answer to the OP is "Yes."
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Old 12th November 2018, 01:12 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
First, those figures are not available so I went with a more generic set.
Not strictly from USG, but there are closer versions available both from there and from private organizations. Even if they were not available, posting numbers that are obviously not relevant and obviously implying that Hispanics are all immigrants/refugees does no good for your position.


Originally Posted by baron
Second, what about the original claim that 'they' (people from violent and war torn countries) are by far the least likely to commit crime in the US.
See above.


Originally Posted by baron
Apparently such brazen statements can be made and accepted without a shred of evidence.
When used as a counterpoint to an outrageous claim that is not only unevidenced but empirically untrue, then its contextual acceptance is a bit less dramatic than you make out here.
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Old 12th November 2018, 01:16 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Seems the answer to the question why almost nobody from the right is calling out Steve King's racism is because they agree with his racism. At least if Baron and CaptainHowdy are representative of right wing thought.
At least you provided some poor reasoning for your silly conclusion.
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Old 12th November 2018, 01:18 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
When used as a counterpoint to an outrageous claim that is not only unevidenced but empirically untrue, then its contextual acceptance is a bit less dramatic than you make out here.
I plan to recycle this paragraph on industrial scale.

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Old 12th November 2018, 01:22 PM   #229
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Old 12th November 2018, 01:33 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
At least you provided some poor reasoning for your silly conclusion.
I know that many conservatives have condemned Steve King.

However in this thread, there are several right wingers (probably not traditional conservatives, but then the GOP isn't traditionally conservative at the moment) who seem to support him, or at least prefer to attack any criticism of him.

What about you? As you are right of centre, and are active in this thread - do you condemn him?
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Old 12th November 2018, 01:47 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I regularly used to interact with many refugees from war-torn Bosnia, and they weren't known for much of a crime problem.
Will or won't we see a retort about Bosnians being white? Stay tuned . . .
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Old 12th November 2018, 02:22 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
What about you? As you are right of centre, and are active in this thread - do you condemn him?
I don't know much about him and am not aware of what he's done or said that is supposed to be condemned. (Haven't followed much of the thread and haven't seen any quotes).
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Old 12th November 2018, 02:26 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I know that many conservatives have condemned Steve King.

However in this thread, there are several right wingers (probably not traditional conservatives, but then the GOP isn't traditionally conservative at the moment) who seem to support him, or at least prefer to attack any criticism of him.

What about you? As you are right of centre, and are active in this thread - do you condemn him?
I am right of center, and I condemn his words and actions. However I am so conservative I go way back to the greats of the past for my guidance on this matter.

You know - greats like Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther King.
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Old 12th November 2018, 02:43 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I don't know much about him and am not aware of what he's done or said that is supposed to be condemned. (Haven't followed much of the thread and haven't seen any quotes).
I can see why dudalb didn't bother quoting - he's been spewing hate for a long time.

And continues to do so - most recently describing Hispanic immigrants as dirt - which he denied, but the (conservative) magazine that reported the story has put the recording up at this link


One could ask why he thought it appropriate to have a Confederate flag in his office, as, although my US history isn't that good - I'm pretty sure it was on the Union side.

In the context of all his other actions, it shows where his sympathies lie.

You should look at the people he's endorsed - the Toronto Mayoral candidate he endorsed claims that there is a white genocide.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
If you didn't know if there was anything defensible or not, why make a comment that indicates the reason you're not going defend King is that it would be an internet slap fest?

The entire 'I'm not going to discuss this with you, but let me discuss discussing this with you' right from the second post is just weird.

This article links to many other articles about what King has said and done.

Some highlights: Retweeted white supremacists tweets expressing white supremacists ideas (not like not knowing it was a white supremacist because the tweet was about cat pictures or something), more than once.

Supported a white supremacist candidate for Toranto's mayor.

On a trip organized by a Holocaust memorial group to teach about Jewish and Holocaust history, he met with and was supportive of literal, honest to goodness neo-Nazis.

At that meeting he opined that diversity wasn't worth the cost, even factoring in Mexican food and Chinese food (not even joking). He also made the point that the ******* Neo-Nazis wouldn't be considered 'far-right' in the US like they are in Europe, and would fit right in with the Republican party.

You know, the very claim you've decried before when it's coming from progressives, or liberals, or Democrats, or former Republicans, or independents. So I doubt you do want to defend him. He really is awful in exactly the ways the OP asserts and ways you're not a fan of either.
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
They probably have me on ignore, as I already spoon-fed some. But hell, I'll do some more.

Say 'ahh', here comes the train! "Diversity is not our strength."

“What does this diversity bring that we don’t already have? Mexican food, Chinese food, those things — well, that’s fine. But what does it bring that we don’t have that is worth the price? We have a lot of diversity within the U.S. already.” - said supporting the arguments of neo-nazis while being interviewed on a neo-nazis show.

Latinos “calves the size of cantaloupes because they’re hauling 75 pounds of marijuana across the desert.” he vomited forth.

“We add to our population approximately 1.8 million of ‘somebody else’s babies’ who are raised in another culture before they get to us. We are replacing our American culture 2 to 1 every year.” - talking about brown babies.

“This whole ‘white people’ business, though, does get a little tired, Charlie. I mean, I’d ask you to go back through history and figure out, where are these contributions that have been made by these other categories of people that you’re talking about? Where did any other subgroup of people contribute to civilization?" on the concept of non-whites contributing to our culture.

And it goes on.
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Old 12th November 2018, 02:47 PM   #235
jimbob
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
I am right of center, and I condemn his words and actions. However I am so conservative I go way back to the greats of the past for my guidance on this matter.

You know - greats like Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther King.


Yes but if I remember your posts correctly, you wouldn't be unhappy to be described as socially liberal and financially conservative?

Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I know that many conservatives have condemned Steve King.

However in this thread, there are several right wingers (probably not traditional conservatives, but then the GOP isn't traditionally conservative at the moment) who seem to support him, or at least prefer to attack any criticism of him.

What about you? As you are right of centre, and are active in this thread - do you condemn him?
With reference the highlighted part - for the last two decades at least, the GOP seems to have been a radical right party rather than a conservative-right party.

ETA: And I don't think that the OP has ever described himself as left-wing.
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Old 12th November 2018, 03:01 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post


Yes but if I remember your posts correctly, you wouldn't be unhappy to be described as socially liberal and financially conservative?



With reference the highlighted part - for the last two decades at least, the GOP seems to have been a radical right party rather than a conservative-right party.

ETA: And I don't think that the OP has ever described himself as left-wing.
The GOP is reactionary right. I credit Limbaugh for finding the Magic Buttons.
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Old 12th November 2018, 03:02 PM   #237
sir drinks-a-lot
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I can see why dudalb didn't bother quoting - he's been spewing hate for a long time.
OK. Give me your top five actual quotes of his.
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Old 12th November 2018, 03:07 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post


Yes but if I remember your posts correctly, you wouldn't be unhappy to be described as socially liberal and financially conservative?



With reference the highlighted part - for the last two decades at least, the GOP seems to have been a radical right party rather than a conservative-right party.

ETA: And I don't think that the OP has ever described himself as left-wing.
True. Why I left the GOP, Trump was the final straw.
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Old 12th November 2018, 03:24 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
OK. Give me your top five actual quotes of his.
https://www.weeklystandard.com/adam-...grants-as-dirt



Quote:
I guess I’m going to have to go and get some dirt from Mexico to grow the next batch.”

[Laughs]

Audience member: Trust me, it’s already on its way.

Steve King: Well, yeah, there’s plenty of dirt, it’s coming from the West Coast, too. And a lot of other places, besides. This is the most dirt we’ve ever seen.
Quote:
“We add to our population approximately 1.8 million of ‘somebody else’s babies’ who are raised in another culture before they get to us. We are replacing our American culture 2 to 1 every year.”
Quote:
“This whole ‘white people’ business, though, does get a little tired, Charlie. I mean, I’d ask you to go back through history and figure out, where are these contributions that have been made by these other categories of people that you’re talking about? Where did any other subgroup of people contribute to civilization?"
Quote:
Faith Goldy, an excellent candidate for Toronto mayor, pro Rule of Law, pro Make Canada Safe Again, pro balanced budget, &...BEST of all, Pro Western Civilization and a fighter for our values. @FaithGoldy will not be silenced. https://t.co/uqkeaUjm7i
Faith Goldy has appeared on podcasts by the Daily Stormer. She is more explicit in her idea of white genocide

For every DREAMer
Quote:
“who’s a valedictorian, there’s another 100 out there who weigh 130 pounds and they’ve got calves the size of cantaloupes because they’re hauling 75 pounds of marijuana across the desert.”
He also likes European white supremacists. Mark Collett who previously stated that AIDS is a “friendly disease because blacks, drug users and gays have it,” and "Jews have been thrown out of every country" and that it's "not just persecution: there's no smoke without fire."

Now maybe King is less careful about his political fellow travellers than I am, but if I wanted to defend myself from accusations of white supremacy, I wouldn't tweet support for so many.
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OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 12th November 2018, 03:51 PM   #240
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That there are non-racists reasons to want very limited immigration is in now way on any level an argument that King holds the non-racist reasons nor that the reasons he has given are not racist. That's just poor reasoning.

And yes, King's reasons are racist. He's using the very old 'primitive people' and 'won't become American' arguments. To say that babies raised in the US won't add too nor be part of 'our culture', if they are brown babies, is racist. Full stop. It's the same arguments used against the Irish, and the Italians, and many other groups. 'They're not capable of it.' That is racist. That is stupid. That has so much evidence against it that anyone with even a passing knowledge of such things would have to work very, very hard to maintain that moronic belief. It has no merit. Provably.

We do not have to pretend it does just because some are upset that it's called out as being racist on top of being stupid.

It is entertaining though. 'You libs will call anything racist, you'll even call *racist thing* racist!'

'That is racist.'

'See! I was right!'

ETA: Also, 'If I oversimplify my views and oversimplify King's views that I have maintained my deep ignorance of intentionally, they match, therefore his views aren't racist' is also pretty damn funny.
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