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Tags donald trump , Mueller investigation , Robert Mueller , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections , William Barr

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Old 25th April 2019, 03:24 PM   #241
newyorkguy
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
...Most Republicans do not accept that Trump is corrupt...
I think this is the big problem here. While I think most Republicans know Donald Trump is pretty much as corrupt as they come, most Republicans won't say that and most Republicans will not accept it, even when they know in their proverbial "heart of hearts" it's true. It's tribal, it's payback, it's cultural. It is.
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Old 25th April 2019, 03:26 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
"Could make"? You mean the Executive branch could be less functional than it is now?
That was my thought. He spends all day on Twitter, watching fox, eating junk food, then he's off to play golf.
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Old 25th April 2019, 03:31 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Actually, the current Executive branch can be quite functional when it wishes to do so.



After all, just take a look at how Trump has radically changed the make-up of the court system with a large series of expedited appointees. Also, please review the recent Trump tax-cuts which got pushed through in short order.
That all happened because the Congress was controlled by republicans who just voted yes to everything without any real scrutiny. Tax cuts and judge's don't need to take a lot of thought for them.

Now look at something that takes some real work. Where is it? Health care, for example.
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Old 25th April 2019, 04:43 PM   #244
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CJ Hopkins does his best to keep up-to-date: Obstructiongate!

Originally Posted by CJ Hopkins
[...] The point is, now they’ve got him! His justice obstructing days are numbered! Break out the pussyhats and vuvuzelas, because next stop is Impeachment City! So what if he’s not a Russian agent and didn’t conspire or collude with anyone? He got elected without permission, and insulted a lot of powerful people, and … well, who cares what they impeach him for, as long as they impeach him for something!

They kind of have to, at this point, don’t they? They just spent most of the last three years rolling out an official narrative in which the Russians are running around attacking democracy, poisoning ducks with Novichok perfume, fomenting populist uprisings in France, and just generally being the evil enemies that the Islamic terrorists used to be, before they turned into freedom fighters and helped us try to take over Syria.

If the Democrats don’t impeach Donald Trump, that official narrative might fall apart. Liberals might have to face the fact that Americans elected Donald Trump president, not because they were brainwashed by Russians, or had any illusions about what a thuggish, self-aggrandizing buffoon he is, but because they were so disgusted with the neoliberal Washington establishment, and the global capitalist elites that own it, that they leapt at the chance to vote against it, and probably would have elected anyone who promised to even marginally disrupt it … but there I go drifting off into my crazy conspiracist thinking again. [...]
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Old 25th April 2019, 06:07 PM   #245
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Hopkins might have a point if his essay wasn't riddled with Gish Gallops about things outside the U.S. he apparently knows nothing about.

To pretend essentially that there are no other actors operating here than the Democratic establishment is attractive to the populist drones but completely dishonest.
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Old 25th April 2019, 06:25 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
CJ Hopkins does his best to keep up-to-date: Obstructiongate!
There's no "gate" there. There's no controversy. It's plain that Trump attempted to obstruct justice.
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Old 25th April 2019, 07:31 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
There's no "gate" there. There's no controversy. It's plain that Trump attempted to obstruct justice.
Pish-tosh! Why, I think these obstruction-related accusations against Trump are every bit as groundless as those Watergate break-in cover-up accusations against Nixon. A -gate indeed!
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Old 25th April 2019, 07:49 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

As has been incorrectly reported by the Fake News Media, I never told then White House Counsel Don McGahn to fire Robert Mueller, even though I had the legal right to do so. If I wanted to fire Mueller, I didn’t need McGahn to do it, I could have done it myself. Nevertheless,....

....Mueller was NOT fired and was respectfully allowed to finish his work on what I, and many others, say was an illegal investigation (there was no crime)
Do tell!

Quote:
headed by a Trump hater who was highly conflicted, and a group of 18 VERY ANGRY Democrats. DRAIN THE SWAMP!
Snort.
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Old 25th April 2019, 07:55 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
It seems like Trump spends his time watching TV instead of actually presidenting.
It also seems to be challenging to fly a kite at the bottom of the ocean.
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Old 25th April 2019, 08:28 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
That was my thought. He spends all day on Twitter, watching fox, eating junk food, then he's off to play golf.
You say that as if it's a bad thing. Imagine how badly off we'd be if he was even half competent.
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Old 26th April 2019, 01:19 AM   #251
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[url#=https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/25/opinion/mueller-trump-campaign-russia-conpiracy-.html]Law professor Jed Handelsman Shugerman explains the different standards of evidence for counterintelligence and criminal prosecution and how the Mueller report supports impeachment because of the former[/url]
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Old 26th April 2019, 01:28 AM   #252
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The Mueller report says next to nothing about Counter-intelligence, except by making it clear that everyone associated with Trump would never get a legit security clearance because of the obvious levels of compromise.

In fact, Mueller has stated in the report that everything of counter-intelligence relevance was passed along to FBI agents embedded in the Mueller team, who passed it on to investigators in the Bureau.
Mueller wanted to work as a criminal prosecutor, not as a mole hunter.

But the fact that Kushner still has a security clearance is indeed an impeachable offense.
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Old 26th April 2019, 06:28 AM   #253
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We've already seen, repeatedly, that Mr. You're Fired is actually too cowardly to fire people face-to-face. Still, he took the cake when he instructed private citizen Corey Lewandowski to fire AG Sessions if Sessions wouldn't recuse.
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Old 26th April 2019, 06:30 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
We've already seen, repeatedly, that Mr. You're Fired is actually too cowardly to fire people face-to-face. Still, he took the cake when he instructed private citizen Corey Lewandowski to fire AG Sessions if Sessions wouldn't recuse.
Varwoche, would you do me a favour? Could you fire Kim Jong Un if he doesn't dismantle his nuclear armament? That'd be great.
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Old 26th April 2019, 06:45 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
We've already seen, repeatedly, that Mr. You're Fired is actually too cowardly to fire people face-to-face. Still, he took the cake when he instructed private citizen Corey Lewandowski to fire AG Sessions if Sessions wouldn't recuse.
Right, because Presidents fire people face-to-face all the time, and so do billionaires. Therefore Trump having someone else do it, is wrong.
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Old 26th April 2019, 06:52 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Right, because Presidents fire people face-to-face all the time, and so do billionaires. Therefore Trump having someone else do it, is wrong.
Trump normalization attempt on steroids, per usual.

How about you cite one instance of a POTUS instructing a private citizen to fire a cabinet member. Or one instance of a cabinet member learning they were fired via social media. Bet you can't.

Like many bullies, Trump is a rank coward at heart.
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Old 26th April 2019, 07:15 AM   #257
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Scared people hiding scary people, as Michelle Obama put it.
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Old 26th April 2019, 07:44 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Right, because Presidents fire people face-to-face all the time, and so do billionaires. Therefore Trump having someone else do it, is wrong.
Yep, it's wrong. If someone the Chairman of the Board hires a CEO or a CFO, he's the one who needs to fire them. In other words, one step down, then its their job. Otherwise, they are just gutless cowards. Which Trump has proven to be over and over.
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Old 26th April 2019, 08:10 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Yep, it's wrong. If someone the Chairman of the Board hires a CEO or a CFO, he's the one who needs to fire them. In other words, one step down, then its their job. Otherwise, they are just gutless cowards. Which Trump has proven to be over and over.
Moreover, as varwoche pointed out, Lewandowski had no authority to fire Sessions. That's like the Chairman of the Board having someone who walked into the lobby go fire the CEO.
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Old 26th April 2019, 08:18 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Right, because Presidents fire people face-to-face all the time, and so do billionaires. Therefore Trump having someone else do it, is wrong.
I know everyone's already pointed out your fail here. I just wanted to ask, do you understand what a Cabinet position is?
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Old 26th April 2019, 08:32 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
We've already seen, repeatedly, that Mr. You're Fired is actually too cowardly to fire people face-to-face. Still, he took the cake when he instructed private citizen Corey Lewandowski to fire AG Sessions if Sessions wouldn't recuse.
I read the link. It doesn't actually support this claim. It says Trump told Lewandowski to tell Sessions that Sessions was at risk of being fired. But there's no indication that Lewandowski was ever told to fire Sessions. Which, well, duh, because Lewandowski didn't have the authority to fire Sessions, even if Trump had ordered him to do so (which it looks like he never did).
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Old 26th April 2019, 08:44 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I read the link. It doesn't actually support this claim. It says Trump told Lewandowski to tell Sessions that Sessions was at risk of being fired. But there's no indication that Lewandowski was ever told to fire Sessions. Which, well, duh, because Lewandowski didn't have the authority to fire Sessions, even if Trump had ordered him to do so (which it looks like he never did).
A more careful reading on your part, of my post and the linked article, would show my claim is accurate. Regardless, pardon that link and this one as I don't have time at the moment to find it and cite it directly in the Mueller report.

Originally Posted by Wapo
The president told his former campaign manager that if Sessions refused, Lewandowski should simply tell the attorney general he was fired, according to the special counsel’s report.
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Old 26th April 2019, 08:44 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I read the link. It doesn't actually support this claim. It says Trump told Lewandowski to tell Sessions that Sessions was at risk of being fired. But there's no indication that Lewandowski was ever told to fire Sessions. Which, well, duh, because Lewandowski didn't have the authority to fire Sessions, even if Trump had ordered him to do so (which it looks like he never did).
This is cute. "At risk of being fired" is not the same as:
Quote:
...At a second one-on-one Oval Office meeting July 19, Trump again told Lewandowski to deliver his message to Sessions, and fire Sessions if he refused to comply;
Maybe you didn't read that far down the page.


ETA: I see Varoche found a similar quote.
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Old 26th April 2019, 09:24 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
A more careful reading on your part, of my post and the linked article, would show my claim is accurate. Regardless, pardon that link and this one as I don't have time at the moment to find it and cite it directly in the Mueller report.
Actually, it's not. You're trusting too much in second-hand characterizations. The Mueller report itself doesn't make that claim. It says that Trump asked Lewandowski to ask Sessions for his resignation, but that's still not firing. It would have been firing if Trump had ordered Sessions to resign, but as I already pointed out, and as the reporter should know, Lewandowski did not have the authority to fire Sessions.
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Old 26th April 2019, 09:26 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
There's no "gate" there. There's no controversy. It's plain that Trump attempted to obstruct justice.
From: https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2019/0...truct-justice/
Prosecutors working for Special Counsel Robert Mueller concluded last year that they had sufficient evidence to seek criminal charges against President Donald Trump for obstruction of justice over the president’s alleged pressuring of then FBI Director James Comey...Privately, the two prosecutors, who were then employed in the special counsel’s office, told other Justice Department officials that had it not been for the unique nature of the case—the investigation of a sitting president of the United States, and one who tried to use the powers of his office to thwart and even close down the special counsel’s investigation—they would have advocated that he face federal criminal charges.
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Old 26th April 2019, 09:37 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Actually, it's not. You're trusting too much in second-hand characterizations. The Mueller report itself doesn't make that claim. It says that Trump asked Lewandowski to ask Sessions for his resignation, but that's still not firing. It would have been firing if Trump had ordered Sessions to resign, but as I already pointed out, and as the reporter should know, Lewandowski did not have the authority to fire Sessions.
Your tap dance is a fail. But I'll give you an A for effort.

We know Lewandowski didn't have the authority, that was the point. If Trump ordered Sessions to resign, that also would make this moot.

But Trump told Lewandowski to make demands and fire Sessions if said demands were not meant. Pretty straight forward.
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Old 26th April 2019, 09:39 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Actually, it's not. You're trusting too much in second-hand characterizations. The Mueller report itself doesn't make that claim.
Well,

Originally Posted by Mueller report, page 305 (Part II, page 93)
Lewandowski recalled that the President told him that if Sessions did not meet with him, Lewandowski should tell Sessions he was fired.
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Old 26th April 2019, 09:43 AM   #268
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Trump also send his bodyguard, Keith Schiller, to fire Comey.
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Old 26th April 2019, 09:48 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
How about you cite one instance of a POTUS instructing a private citizen to fire a cabinet member.
Corey Lewandowski comes pretty close:
Quote:
The president said Sessions would be fired if [Sessions] didn’t take the meeting. Lewandowski told Trump that the message would be delivered soon and later joked with White House adviser Hope Hicks about the idea that Sessions would be fired for not meeting with him, a private citizen.


Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Or one instance of a cabinet member learning they were fired via social media.
Rex Tillerson.


ETA: Ninja'ed by multiple posts. These questions must have been too easy---although it appears Ziggurat couldn't have answered them.

Last edited by W.D.Clinger; 26th April 2019 at 09:50 AM. Reason: added ETA
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Old 26th April 2019, 09:50 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
You say that as if it's a bad thing. Imagine how badly off we'd be if he was even half competent.

On another forum that I frequented, the reaction after the election was a frightened "Oh God, what's he going to do?" It transformed into an exasperated "Oh God, what's he done now?" when the level of incompetence in the administration became clear.
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Old 26th April 2019, 09:51 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by W.D.Clinger View Post
Not counting Trump, who does it constantly, which is the point of contention.
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Old 26th April 2019, 09:52 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by W.D.Clinger View Post


Rex Tillerson.


ETA: Ninja'ed by multiple posts. These questions must have been too easy---although it appears Ziggurat couldn't have answered them.
I thought it was clear varwoche meant other than Trump.

ETA: which he apparently made clear while I was typing.
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Old 26th April 2019, 09:54 AM   #273
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You know all the "Trump Digs Coal" campaigning that Stubby McBonespurs did?

From: https://thinkprogress.org/russia-coa...-ad5a583fd32e/
In October 2016, Pennsylvania social media accounts promoted “Miners for Trump” rallies around the state with a picture of a gritty coal miner.... the social media promotions were not created by U.S. coal miners, however. Instead, they were the work of the Internet Research Agency (IRA), a Russian troll farm, according to special counsel Robert Mueller’s recently released report...

The best part of the article?

...the image that the Russians selected for their poster as representative of American coal miners was Lee Hipshire, who died from black lung disease. His son, also a coal miner, told NPR, “My dad was one of the most staunch Democrats that you’ll ever see in your life, and he never would have even thought about putting his face on something like that.”
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Old 26th April 2019, 10:01 AM   #274
W.D.Clinger
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Not counting Trump, who does it constantly, which is the point of contention.
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I thought it was clear varwoche meant other than Trump.

ETA: which he apparently made clear while I was typing.
Ziggurat was still denying that Trump had done it, so I thought there might be some purpose to stating a correct (hence non-Ziggurat) answer to varwoche's question as though Trump's actions were eligible.
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Old 26th April 2019, 10:12 AM   #275
jimbob
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
...The point of the Nixon comparison is that the argument that Trump shouldn't be impeached because "it would divide the country" is spurious, at best...
I'm not sure I agree with that and I have read opinions of people who do not agree at all. The Republican-elected president previous to Nixon was Dwight Eisenhower. The Republican-elected president after Nixon was Ronald Reagan. I think it can be argued that Watergate -- and Nixon essentially being forced out of office -- left a bitterness and a resentment among Republicans that continues to this day. I think it can be argued that post-Nixon/Watergate the Republican Party became noticeably more callous and cynical. Some of the most partisan Republicans, like Gingrich, Cheney, Rumsfeld, all entered politics in that era.

Below is a quote from Geoffrey Kabaservice, an author and research director of the Republican Main Street Partnership.

Quote:
Nixon was, despite the popular conception of him today, a centrist Republican—and because of Watergate, he may have been the last one. Nixon’s sensibilities were populist-conservative, but operationally he acted as a moderate and even occasionally as a progressive, for example when he created the Environmental Protection Agency and proposed national health insurance that would have covered more people than Obamacare. In 1997, I interviewed Elliot Richardson, who as attorney general played a key role in bringing down Nixon but felt history had wrongly remembered the 37th president. “Most people don’t really get the fact that the Nixon administration was to the left of the Clinton administration,” Richardson told me. Politico link
Whilst I agree about your views about the policies of Nixon, I'd argue his dirty tricks were pretty cynical as was his Southern Strategy.

An alternative view is that the Southern Strategy, by giving a new home to the old Democrat Segregationalists, Nixon's Republicans worsened their party and improved the Democrats. After all, gerrymandering, and voter suppression were pretty normal practice in the South before desegregation, and the proponents of that have kept up the effective work.

Who knows how bad it would have been if Nixon hadn't been forced out in disgrace. Maybe it's taken a couple of generations for the Republican establishment to feel empowered enough to be as blatant as they now are?
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Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 26th April 2019, 10:36 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
Well,
Oops.
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Old 26th April 2019, 12:05 PM   #277
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Fox News judicial analyst Judge Andrew Napolitano:

"When the president asked Corey Lewandowski ... to get Mueller fired, that's obstruction of justice. When the president asked his then-White House counsel to get Mueller fired & then lie about it, that's obstruction of justice."


https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/sta...785716224?s=21
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Old 26th April 2019, 12:28 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
That all happened because the Congress was controlled by republicans who just voted yes to everything without any real scrutiny. Tax cuts and judge's don't need to take a lot of thought for them.

Now look at something that takes some real work. Where is it? Health care, for example.
Actually, I think that the health care issue does speak to my point.

After all, Trump admitted that 'he did not know that the health care would be so difficult to deal with' even though he often promised to 'repeal and replace' Obamacare with something that would be much better and cheaper. However, Trump never even bothered to look into the details of health care reform until he was actually forced to do so, but his lack of vision clearly did not deter him from making all kinds of big promises as to how he alone would fix things.
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Old 26th April 2019, 12:37 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
Well,
To be fair, the original post said Lewandowski was instructed to fire Sessions if Sessions refused to recuse himself, not if he refused to meet. A minor point, but Zig has a habit of being coy about his objections to such links. He waits for about five iterations before pointing out the minor misleading detail that justified his claim that a source was irrelevant.

Last edited by phiwum; 26th April 2019 at 12:42 PM.
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Old 26th April 2019, 12:39 PM   #280
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Actually, I think that the health care issue does speak to my point.

After all, Trump admitted that 'he did not know that the health care would be so difficult to deal with' even though he often promised to 'repeal and replace' Obamacare with something that would be much better and cheaper. However, Trump never even bothered to look into the details of health care reform until he was actually forced to do so, but his lack of vision clearly did not deter him from making all kinds of big promises as to how he alone would fix things.
And he still makes promises he can't keep and people keep believing this will be the one he keeps.

A current lie is he's going to put Democrats that persecuted him in jail.
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