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Tags donald trump , E. Jean Carroll , rape charges , Trump controversies

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Old 27th June 2019, 05:42 PM   #41
theprestige
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
She might want to consult with a few women who actually have been raped before making that kind of generalisation.





Yeah, these things would only have weight if the accused was anyone other than Trump.


ETA:

Did I report it to the police?

No.

Did I tell anyone about it?

Yes. I told two close friends. The first, a journalist, magazine writer, correspondent on the TV morning shows, author of many books, etc., begged me to go to the police.

“He raped you,” she kept repeating when I called her. “He raped you. Go to the police! I’ll go with you. We’ll go together.”


My second friend is also a journalist, a New York anchorwoman. She grew very quiet when I told her, then she grasped both my hands in her own and said, “Tell no one. Forget it! He has 200 lawyers. He’ll bury you.” (Two decades later, both still remember the incident clearly and confirmed their accounts to New York.)


That's enough weight for me - two contemporaneous witnesses to her statement.

And legally, her statements to her friends could be construed as "excited utterances" which means their testimony would be valid as an exception to the hearsay rule. Of course, if this was not a 1st degree rape, 1st degree criminal sexual act or a 1st degree aggravated sexual abuse, then its not a class A felony and the statute of limitations has expired.
Allegedly contemporaneous. Neither of them spoke up before now, either.
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Old 27th June 2019, 05:43 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Considering that her allegation is the 22nd against this President, it'd be nice to see the Republicans living up to the standards which they demanded about Bill Clinton during the 90's.
These are not remotely equivalent accusations.
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Old 27th June 2019, 05:46 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Why should the number of allegations matter?
Yes. Some are likely to be less credible than others. If you have a large number and feature the most credible, the less credible accusations become gospel truth.
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Old 27th June 2019, 05:49 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Allegedly contemporaneous. Neither of them spoke up before now, either.
But they're broadly supported by the "Access Hollywood" audio. He said he did it; women came forward and confirmed what he said. A plus B equals C.
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Old 27th June 2019, 05:51 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I suspect Carroll did not, and still may not, really admit to herself that she was raped. Her odd response that she prefers to call it a "fight" and not a "rape" is enlightening. She is still minimizing it by saying she wasn't "thrown on the ground and 'ravished'". She can't even use the word "raped". "Ravished" has a different connotation; it's a word that paperback novels use for what happened to Scarlett O'Hara and those Victorian heroines who are 'ravished' by the sexy bad boys- really good guys whom they later marry and become duchesses.



Notice again that she refers to it not as a 'rape', but as "the situation" and blames herself.
After training and working at a Rape Crisis Center and on a Sexual Assault Hotline, every thing she described, including the minimization of what happened. Women have been made to feel guilty for sexual assaults against them for so long, that I understood what she was saying and describing. I feel she is very believable.
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Old 27th June 2019, 05:54 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Yes. Some are likely to be less credible than others. If you have a large number and feature the most credible, the less credible accusations become gospel truth.
That's insane.
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Old 27th June 2019, 05:55 PM   #47
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When you are a star don’t have to even wait for consent - you can do anything.
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Old 27th June 2019, 05:55 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Carroll has a point. A lot of people (men as well as women) do have 'rape' fantasies as dann said. Think of Rhett Butler carrying a kicking and screaming Scarlett up the stairs to the bedroom. The next morning, she wakes up smiling and as content as a kitten who just lapped a bowl of milk thinking about the wonderful night she had with him. In the TV series Billions, Chuck is into masochism but he still has a 'safe word' whereby he maintains control. There's a common belief that women really want to be overpowered by a sexy man. The difference between these fantasies and reality is that in the fantasies control is still maintained by the woman. In real life, it is taken away from her.
Rhett Butler was good-looking.
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Old 27th June 2019, 05:58 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Rhett Butler was good-looking.
Right so as a good looking bloke I know she deep down really wants it no matter how much she protests. Or maybe I am just average but inherently desirable because of my celebrity.
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Old 27th June 2019, 05:58 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Why should the number of allegations matter?
Because is speaks to something called "a pattern of behaviour". Its what made the accusations against Cosby, Winestain and Harris credible. One person accusing a celebrity of a bad act might not be worth looking into, but when its 5, 6, 7, 8 .....22, that becomes a pattern. If just one person accused a those three, and no others came forward, I don't think anything would have come of it (evidence Robert Mueller, William Roache, Cliff Richard)


Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Allegedly contemporaneous. Neither of them spoke up before now, either.
The is just another example of the ridiculous, arbitrary hurdles created by rape deniers and misogynists.

If a woman close to you, say, a work colleague, told you (of all people) that they had been raped, would you speak up publicly about it?

Perhaps I should rephrase that...

Do you believe most decent people would break such a confidence?

Can you point to any cases where a person who was told by a friend that they were raped, and who then took it to the newspapers?

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
She doesn't call it actual rape.
No, she calls it sexual assault... its still a crime! (in New York, its a Class A felony with no statute of limitations).
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Old 27th June 2019, 06:02 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That's insane.
No, it's dishonest.
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Old 27th June 2019, 06:04 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Because is speaks to something called "a pattern of behaviour". Its what made the accusations against Cosby, Winestain and Harris credible. One person accusing a celebrity of a bad act might not be worth looking into, but when its 5, 6, 7, 8 .....22, that becomes a pattern. If just one person accused a those three, and no others came forward, I don't think anything would have come of it (evidence Robert Mueller, William Roache, Cliff Richard)




The is just another example of the ridiculous, arbitrary hurdles created by rape deniers and misogynists.

If a woman close to you, say, a work colleague, told you (of all people) that they had been raped, would you speak up publicly about it?

Perhaps I should rephrase that...

Do you believe most decent people would break such a confidence?

Can you point to any cases where a person who was told by a friend that they were raped, who then took it to the newspapers?
I immediately think of the Geoffrey Rush debacle. Norvill’s experience speaks to the point you are making.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-...court/10473138
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Old 27th June 2019, 06:11 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Because is speaks to something called "a pattern of behaviour".
Begging the question.

You can't have a pattern of behavior without documented instances of that behavior.

The only documented pattern of behavior we have so far is the pattern of Trump haters to make unsubstantiated allegations.
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Old 27th June 2019, 06:12 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
I immediately think of the Geoffrey Rush debacle. Norvill’s experience speaks to the point you are making.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-...court/10473138

Yep, and its exceedingly rare for that to happen, AND Eryn wasn't named in the newpaper article, so that doesn't really speak to what I am saying.

theprestige implies that if the witnesses do not voluntarily take their information to the newspapers, that this some how diminishes their credibility when they are asked abut it later and confirm it.
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Old 27th June 2019, 06:13 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
When you are a star don’t have to even wait for consent - you can do anything.
When you're a star they'll consent to anything. Even Carroll doesn't say she was raped.
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Old 27th June 2019, 06:15 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
When you're a star they'll consent to anything. Even Carroll doesn't say she was raped.
Such is the beauty of the phrase "sexual assault". There's just so much room to maneuver there.

ETA: and many people equate it with rape.
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Old 27th June 2019, 06:29 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
She doesn't call it actual rape.
She said there was vaginal penetration without consent.

We have a word for that, whether Ms. Carroll uses it or not.
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Old 27th June 2019, 06:33 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Begging the question.
Not at all

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You can't have a pattern of behavior without documented instances of that behavior.
There are documented instances of that behavior going back almost 50 years...

Jessica Leeds (early 1970s)
Ivana Trump (1990)
Kristin Anderson (early 1990s)
Jill Harth (early 1990s)
Lisa Boyne (1996)
Maria Billado (1997)
Victoria Hughes (1997)
Temple Taggart (1997)
Kathy Heller (late 1990s)
E. Jean Carroll (late 1990s)
Karena Virginia (1998)
Tasha Dixon (2001)
Bridget Sullivan (2001)
Melinda McGillivray (2003)
Natasha Stoynoff (2005)
Rachel Crooks (2005)
Jennifer Murphy (2006)
Juliet Huddy (2006)
Samantha Holvey (2006)
Ninni Laaksonen (2006)
Jessica Drake (2006)
Summer Zervos (2007)
Cassandra Searles (2013)
Alva Johnson (2016)

That is quite a pattern of documented behaviour

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The only documented pattern of behavior we have so far is the pattern of Trump haters to make unsubstantiated allegations.
Spoken like a true simpering sycophant.
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Old 27th June 2019, 06:35 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
When you're a star they'll consent to anything. Even Carroll doesn't say she was raped.
Did Carroll consent?
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Old 27th June 2019, 06:36 PM   #60
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Cultists will defend the cult leader without limit.
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Old 27th June 2019, 06:47 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Because is speaks to something called "a pattern of behaviour". Its what made the accusations against Cosby, Winestain and Harris credible. One person accusing a celebrity of a bad act might not be worth looking into, but when its 5, 6, 7, 8 .....22, that becomes a pattern. If just one person accused a those three, and no others came forward, I don't think anything would have come of it (evidence Robert Mueller, William Roache, Cliff Richard)
Also why if someone accuses a Catholic priest of abusing a child, I find the accusation very credible. I mean, of course it's probably true: he's a Catholic priest!


As to E. Jean Carroll's accusation against Trump, I was a bit skeptical at first for a variety of reasons. Now that the women she confided in have come forth publicly, I think it makes the claim more credible. I don't think it passes the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard necessary to convict in a court of law. It's an allegation; neither proven nor disproven.
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Old 27th June 2019, 06:51 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Really? Is that a serious question?
We have it now established, that, according to at least one Trump supporter, it does not matter how many rape accusations there are against.

They will support him regardless.
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Old 27th June 2019, 07:06 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
When you're a star they'll consent to anything. Even Carroll doesn't say she was raped.
I don't know why you keep claiming this. In the Anderson Cooper interview she states that she didn't consent ("It was against my will.") Cooper asks her if there was penetration, to which she nods and says "Yes", and then he says, "That is the definition of Rape, one definition" to which she nods again and says "That's the definition."

You are either woefully misinformed, or you are lying, either way, please stop with this baseless claim.

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Old 27th June 2019, 07:32 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Cultists will defend the cult leader without limit.
I see this complaint on any number of message forums -they also will not take part in a discussion. Trump supporters don't discuss, they communicate talking points. Talking points they pick up from right wing media sites, right wing social media or from one another.

I'm sure the members defending Trump in this thread probably think -- just as the rest of us do -- he probably behaved just as Jean Carroll described. It's who he is! We all know it. But pretending not to know what kind of a man Trump is, is part of the attraction of being a Trump defender in the first place. At least for a certain type person. That pretending they "don't get it," being deliberately dense, gives them a feeling of power over other people.

Or something like that. Maybe I'm not explaining it very well. I just know it's weird!
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Old 27th June 2019, 07:53 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Because it's a train wreck Trump.
ftfy.

Who will the next partisan apologist to stick their oar into this thread be? Don't be shy, we need it to keep the debate going.

And don't think you can't come up with something (no matter how ridiculous) to defend Trump - it's all grist for the mill. Who knows, perhaps you will bamboozle the other side with some outlandish theory they can't disprove!
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Old 27th June 2019, 08:00 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Did Carroll consent?
Consent?

She was asking for it!
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Old 27th June 2019, 09:04 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You are either woefully misinformed, or you are lying
Why do you discount the possibility that it is both?
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Old 27th June 2019, 09:27 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
This standard is only a standard in a Court of Law. Unless you are on a Jury that is deciding the case, you are under exactly zero requirement to consider someone innocent until they are proven guilty.
I disagree, or at most I would change the wording a bit.

If an accusation is brought forth, you have a moral obligation, in my opinion, to consider evidence for that accusation, and reject it if you find that evidence lacking. It doesn't have to follow the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard used in a courtroom, but I think it is wrong to vilify someone based on an accusation unless there's enough evidence to support that accusation that it could be considered "proven", or at least shown to be very likely.


Is that what we have here? Well, we have an allegation against a man. We know that the man is promiscuous, narcissistic, and sexually aggressive, at least in his younger days. There is certainly nothing in Donald Trump's character that we would say rules out the possibility that he raped a woman. We also have two women who say that the story was shared with them at the time that it happened, decades ago, when Donald Trump was a celebrity, but not a politician. So, that's some good evidence.


On the other hand, we have an allegation that is being made as part of a book promotion. Hmmm.....that's not necessarily a reason to dismiss the allegation, but it's enough to introduce some doubt. Then there's her, "It wasn't rape because...." interview where, frankly, she said some bizarre things.


I don't know. If it weren't for the contemporaneous stories, I would say that the story could be dismissed for lack of evidence. With those stories, I would have to say the allegation is credible, but far from a sure thing. I wouldn't insult anyone who believed it based on what evidence we have, but I don't think it's enough.


ETA: But I just watched the portion of the interview linked in an earlier post. She's pretty credible.

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Old 27th June 2019, 10:12 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I disagree, or at most I would change the wording a bit.

If an accusation is brought forth, you have a moral obligation, in my opinion, to consider evidence for that accusation, and reject it if you find that evidence lacking. It doesn't have to follow the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard used in a courtroom, but I think it is wrong to vilify someone based on an accusation unless there's enough evidence to support that accusation that it could be considered "proven", or at least shown to be very likely.


Is that what we have here? Well, we have an allegation against a man. We know that the man is promiscuous, narcissistic, and sexually aggressive, at least in his younger days. There is certainly nothing in Donald Trump's character that we would say rules out the possibility that he raped a woman. We also have two women who say that the story was shared with them at the time that it happened, decades ago, when Donald Trump was a celebrity, but not a politician. So, that's some good evidence.


On the other hand, we have an allegation that is being made as part of a book promotion. Hmmm.....that's not necessarily a reason to dismiss the allegation, but it's enough to introduce some doubt. Then there's her, "It wasn't rape because...." interview where, frankly, she said some bizarre things.


I don't know. If it weren't for the contemporaneous stories, I would say that the story could be dismissed for lack of evidence. With those stories, I would have to say the allegation is credible, but far from a sure thing. I wouldn't insult anyone who believed it based on what evidence we have, but I don't think it's enough.
That's about where I fall on this right now, given what I've heard so far.

The proverbial "elephant in the room" which you refer to is the question of how much money she stands to make by making this accusation. I.e., how many more copies of this book are going to sell because it contains a rape accusation against Donald Trump, and how much money does that translate into? Since I am not an expert on the book publishing business I'm not really sure what the answer to that question is, but I imagine that it will be a very significant sum of money. I mention this not to discredit her accusation, but because I think it is still a factor that needs to be considered carefully. It could be that it's both true and that the reason she's only just now finally going public with it is to cash in on it.

If it did happen, is it possible that the reason she won't use the word "rape" to describe it is because it wasn't entirely nonconsensual? Why would she be reluctant to say "rape"?
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Old 27th June 2019, 10:29 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
That's about where I fall on this right now, given what I've heard so far.

The proverbial "elephant in the room" which you refer to is the question of how much money she stands to make by making this accusation. I.e., how many more copies of this book are going to sell because it contains a rape accusation against Donald Trump, and how much money does that translate into? Since I am not an expert on the book publishing business I'm not really sure what the answer to that question is, but I imagine that it will be a very significant sum of money. I mention this not to discredit her accusation, but because I think it is still a factor that needs to be considered carefully. It could be that it's both true and that the reason she's only just now finally going public with it is to cash in on it.

If it did happen, is it possible that the reason she won't use the word "rape" to describe it is because it wasn't entirely nonconsensual? Why would she be reluctant to say "rape"?
Raising a motive for lying does just what you claim you are not. It is just something that the Trump cultists will cling to and brandish. Everything we know about Trump tallies with the twenty(?) accusations to date being a pattern of behaviour.
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Old 27th June 2019, 10:40 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
On the other hand, we have an allegation that is being made as part of a book promotion. Hmmm.....that's not necessarily a reason to dismiss the allegation, but it's enough to introduce some doubt.
Except that this isn't really true. It has been taken up by the media because it has value politically, but it wasn't used in any of the promotion material or being used as part of the promotion itself. She considers it to be a very minor part of the book and since she claims to have moved on, she was reluctant to talk about it at first

Quote:
Then there's her, "It wasn't rape because...." interview where, frankly, she said some bizarre things.
From the interviews I have seen she doesn't want to call it rape because that would make her a victim, and she doesn't want to think of herself as a victim. I can understand that thought process, but what she describes is clearly rape, and she did acknowledge that when interviewed by Anderson Cooper.

Quote:
ETA: But I just watched the portion of the interview linked in an earlier post. She's pretty credible.
Having watched a few of her interviews, I agree. And considering the credibility of the accused....
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Old 27th June 2019, 10:50 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
The proverbial "elephant in the room" which you refer to is the question of how much money she stands to make by making this accusation. I.e., how many more copies of this book are going to sell because it contains a rape accusation against Donald Trump, and how much money does that translate into? Since I am not an expert on the book publishing business I'm not really sure what the answer to that question is, but I imagine that it will be a very significant sum of money. I mention this not to discredit her accusation, but because I think it is still a factor that needs to be considered carefully. It could be that it's both true and that the reason she's only just now finally going public with it is to cash in on it.
As I noted above, it's the media that pulled out the story from the book, it was never promoted and Trump's name apparently only appears once in the entire thing. I believe that it was the New York Times Book Reviewer that broke the story. If it's supposed to have been a publicity stunt for the book, it seems a really odd way to do it. Even more so that she was reluctant to discuss it at first.

Quote:
If it did happen, is it possible that the reason she won't use the word "rape" to describe it is because it wasn't entirely nonconsensual? Why would she be reluctant to say "rape"?
Also as noted above, she says that she doesn't want to be thought of as a victim, which that word would do. What she describes is very much non-consensual however, and while I don't agree with her thought process as she explains it, I won't argue that she isn't allowed to feel that she doesn't want to be considered a victim as a woman forced at knife point would be. Personally I think that her views are a little harmful, sort of for it to be a "real" rape there has to be violence and threats of harm, though at the same time I would note that this is also a very commonly held belief. A lot of people don't think that Date Rape is real rape, or if the victim didn't scream, or.... yeah.

She does acknowledge that it was rape when interviewed by Anderson Cooper though.
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Old 27th June 2019, 11:21 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Why should the number of allegations matter?
It's a measure of how much of a gullible sucker you are. If you disbelieve one of these women, fine. If you disbelieve all of them, you've drank the Kool-Aid and probably can't return from the rabbit hole at this point.

Sorry.
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Old 27th June 2019, 11:27 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Except that this isn't really true. It has been taken up by the media because it has value politically, but it wasn't used in any of the promotion material or being used as part of the promotion itself. She considers it to be a very minor part of the book and since she claims to have moved on, she was reluctant to talk about it at first
You are being extremely naive if you really believe that.
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Old 27th June 2019, 11:27 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Did you see her interview on CNN where she said she wouldn't call it rape, and said that she thinks most women find the idea of rape sexy?
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Much like many rapists, theprestige doesn't seem to distinguish between the two things:
1) finding the idea of rape sexy, i.e. the sexual fantasy where the woman actually decides for herself who is 'raping' her and how since it's all in her head, and
2) finding actual rape sexy.
No wonder it was so important to him to ruin the thread about the motivation of sexual coercers.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
She doesn't call it actual rape.

No, she doesn't call what Trump did to her rape, and in legal terms it probably wouldn't be considered consummated rape.
But she also doesn't call what Trump did to her sexy, does she?!


ETA: I didn't know about this:

Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
She said there was vaginal penetration without consent.

We have a word for that, whether Ms. Carroll uses it or not.

I think that would be considered consummated rape.
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Old 27th June 2019, 11:30 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
When you're a star they'll consent to anything. Even Carroll doesn't say she was raped.

You really don't get it, do you?!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 27th June 2019, 11:39 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
I see this complaint on any number of message forums -they also will not take part in a discussion. Trump supporters don't discuss, they communicate talking points. Talking points they pick up from right wing media sites, right wing social media or from one another.

I'm sure the members defending Trump in this thread probably think -- just as the rest of us do -- he probably behaved just as Jean Carroll described. It's who he is! We all know it. But pretending not to know what kind of a man Trump is, is part of the attraction of being a Trump defender in the first place. At least for a certain type person. That pretending they "don't get it," being deliberately dense, gives them a feeling of power over other people.

Or something like that. Maybe I'm not explaining it very well. I just know it's weird!

I think you're right. It's the feeling of power that drives all trolls.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 27th June 2019, 11:47 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
You are being extremely naive if you really believe that.
Why? None of the promotion for the book itself says anything about the incident, and it entered the media via a book reviewer, the story being published in the book review section of the NYT. Not exactly your typical way to use something so explosive to promote the book. If the Book reviewer had not mentioned it, we'd still be none the wiser on the story.

Care to explain why you think it is promotion, or are you just assuming it?
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Old 27th June 2019, 11:50 PM   #79
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The issue of "corroborating evidence" has a long history in sex crimes:

https://newrepublic.com/article/1523...sexual-assault
https://time.com/5413814/he-said-she...ford-mitchell/
https://abcnews.go.com/US/kavanaugh-...ry?id=58254664

TL;DR Credible testimony is sufficient. The type of "corroborating evidence" people seem to be wanting is rare, and though helpful not a requirement even for conviction in a court of law, let alone a conclusion of a layperson.
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Old 28th June 2019, 12:10 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
ftfy.

Who will the next partisan apologist to stick their oar into this thread be? Don't be shy, we need it to keep the debate going.

And don't think you can't come up with something (no matter how ridiculous) to defend Trump - it's all grist for the mill. Who knows, perhaps you will bamboozle the other side with some outlandish theory they can't disprove!
Yeah, that totally makes sense. The press is dropping this story because they want to protect Trump.
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