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Tags 2020 elections , democratic party , presidential candidates

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Old 8th August 2019, 09:12 PM   #241
Venom
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He's just as magnetic in the small room as in a gymnasium or town hall.
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Old 8th August 2019, 11:37 PM   #242
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https://twitter.com/SteveGuest/statu...000347136?s=20

Video of Biden.

"We choose unity over division,
we choose science over fiction,
we choose truth over facts"

*record scratch* wait, what?

:biden:
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Old 9th August 2019, 07:43 AM   #243
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Sounds like a lies, damn lies, and statistics type thing.

We're all familiar with the rhetorical technique of cherry picking facts to misrepresent or obscure the truth.
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Old 9th August 2019, 07:53 AM   #244
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Perhaps he was supposed to say "fantasy" rather than "facts". As the brain ages sometimes it gets hard to get quite the word you meant, so you land on one that starts the same. My grandparents all did that in their nineties and hundreds. The charitable view is that Biden isn't an idiot, he's merely withered mentally from the vast age of his dusty brain, perhaps it was structurally weakened by all that hypocrisy and self-serving jerkishness that imbued his every action long ago when he was alive.
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Old 9th August 2019, 08:22 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Perhaps he was supposed to say "fantasy" rather than "facts". As the brain ages sometimes it gets hard to get quite the word you meant, so you land on one that starts the same. My grandparents all did that in their nineties and hundreds. The charitable view is that Biden isn't an idiot, he's merely withered mentally from the vast age of his dusty brain, perhaps it was structurally weakened by all that hypocrisy and self-serving jerkishness that imbued his every action long ago when he was alive.
I think the charitable view is that Biden is talking about cherry-picking rather than honest representation of the truth.

Kind of like how you're spouting facts about senility, without actually getting to anything true about Biden.
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Old 9th August 2019, 08:36 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think the charitable view is that Biden is talking about cherry-picking rather than honest representation of the truth.

Kind of like how you're spouting facts about senility, without actually getting to anything true about Biden.
Sure, I didn't. Biden's as mentally nimble as the first time he ran for president decades ago. In 1988. What a great year that was! I was in sixth grade. Biden was older then than I am now, and I'm in my forties. He certainly doesn't constantly misspeak himself into embarrassing gaffes, usually along racial lines like this week when he contrasted "white" against "poor" when talking about students to a room full of non-white people. Biden's clean and articulate, one of the good ones.
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Old 9th August 2019, 08:47 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Sure, I didn't. Biden's as mentally nimble as the first time he ran for president decades ago. In 1988. What a great year that was! I was in sixth grade. Biden was older then than I am now, and I'm in my forties. He certainly doesn't constantly misspeak himself into embarrassing gaffes, usually along racial lines like this week when he contrasted "white" against "poor" when talking about students to a room full of non-white people. Biden's clean and articulate, one of the good ones.
This seems to be more about personal hatred for Biden, than about any question of truth versus facts.

I don't mind if you want to continue your rant, but could you at least take a moment to acknowledge the problem of cherry picking versus accurately representing the truth?
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Old 9th August 2019, 08:56 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This seems to be more about personal hatred for Biden, than about any question of truth versus facts.

I don't mind if you want to continue your rant, but could you at least take a moment to acknowledge the problem of cherry picking versus accurately representing the truth?
It's a post-truth world now, all that matters is "facts" by which we mean "sound bites". I urge unity over hatred! Let's agree to covfefe, bigly covfefe.
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Old 9th August 2019, 09:27 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's a post-truth world now, all that matters is "facts" by which we mean "sound bites". I urge unity over hatred! Let's agree to covfefe, bigly covfefe.
I'm asking a serious question. Do you not have a serious answer?

---

ETA: This, on the other hand, is gonna take a lot more serious explainin' than I can muster:

https://twitter.com/AndrewHClark/sta...30998667239425

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Old 9th August 2019, 09:34 AM   #250
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A couple of things I've read recently:

Bazillionaire Tom Steyer recently hit 3% in a poll of likely Iowa caucus-goers. He needs a couple more polls like that and (ironically enough) some donors in order to get to the next debate.

Here's a pretty interesting graphic showing who's qualified and who isn't.

Fully qualified: Biden, Sanders, Warren, Buttigieg, Harris, Booker, Beto, Klobuchar and Yang. Tulsi and Castro have met the donor requirement but not the polling hurdle. The irony is that Beto is probably only in because of old polls showing him being competitive; most of the recent polling shows him at 1% or less.

Mike Gravel has officially dropped out. Here's an overly-sympathetic look at him from Vox. A few weeks ago, Marianne Williamson tried to get some donations for Gravel to help him get to the debate stage. It didn't work, and he didn't return the favor; on dropping out he endorsed Sanders.
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Old 9th August 2019, 10:51 AM   #251
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“poor kids are just as bright, just as talented, as white kids.” Joe Biden
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Old 9th August 2019, 10:55 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
A couple of things I've read recently:

Bazillionaire Tom Steyer recently hit 3% in a poll of likely Iowa caucus-goers. He needs a couple more polls like that and (ironically enough) some donors in order to get to the next debate.

Here's a pretty interesting graphic showing who's qualified and who isn't.

Fully qualified: Biden, Sanders, Warren, Buttigieg, Harris, Booker, Beto, Klobuchar and Yang. Tulsi and Castro have met the donor requirement but not the polling hurdle. The irony is that Beto is probably only in because of old polls showing him being competitive; most of the recent polling shows him at 1% or less.

Mike Gravel has officially dropped out. Here's an overly-sympathetic look at him from Vox. A few weeks ago, Marianne Williamson tried to get some donations for Gravel to help him get to the debate stage. It didn't work, and he didn't return the favor; on dropping out he endorsed Sanders.
I'm liking Williamson more and more every day.
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Old 9th August 2019, 11:02 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm liking Williamson more and more every day.
She has a few good ideas, mixed in with the rest.

It's a pity we can't select only the good ideas from each candidate and program them into an AI robot candidate (insert Al Gore joke here). That way we coukd get the best and eschew the crazy bits they each seem to harbor. Like eating only the marshmallow layer of the sweet potatoes.
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Old 9th August 2019, 11:09 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
She has a few good ideas, mixed in with the rest.

It's a pity we can't select only the good ideas from each candidate and program them into an AI robot candidate (insert Al Gore joke here). That way we coukd get the best and eschew the crazy bits they each seem to harbor. Like eating only the marshmallow layer of the sweet potatoes.
Oh, that could go wrong in so many ways...
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Old 9th August 2019, 11:33 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm liking Williamson more and more every day.


Is that your way of insulting the crop of Democratic candidates? Like you would seriously vote for anyone but a Republican and that means Trump as much as you deny it.
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Old 9th August 2019, 11:45 AM   #256
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Biden gaffes like 'poor kids are as smart as white kids' give the Trump campaign incredible ammo to turn blacks away from him the same way they did with Clinton. He immediately corrected himself yet what is echoing around the news media? The gaffe.

Vox
Quote:
But attention around the comment had already escalated. President Donald Trump’s 2020 campaign even highlighted the remarks in an email, saying, “This is not a gaffe. This is part of a pattern.” Trump has a long history of racist comments, and has repeatedly questioned the intelligence of black leaders. Biden delivered a speech in Iowa this week emphasizing the importance of the “words of a president,” calling out Trump for assigning “a moral equivalence between those spewing hate and those with the courage to stand against it.”

“As we approach the two year anniversary of Trump calling neo-Nazis and Klansmen ‘very fine people,’ Donald Trump is desperate to change the subject from his atrocious record of using racism to divide this country,” Bedingfield added.
Desperate, sure, but let's not downplay successful.

Quote:
In the room, the moment was only a blip in the nearly two-hour event, where Biden gave rambling responses to fairly straightforward questions on immigration, unions, criminal justice, climate change, and gun control.

The moderator twice asked the former vice president to be more direct in his answers — and generally talk less. At one point, Biden gave a 10-minute response to a question on criminal justice that included the standard Democratic positions on gun control, like background checks and requiring safety locks, and the geography of the Delmarva Peninsula.
Blah blah blah, canned answers are not impressing anyone.

Quote:
Biden has always been known for going off the cuff and saying things that get him into trouble (like when he waxed nostalgic about working with segregationist senators).
Off the cuff is a polite way of saying stepped in it.

Quote:
“I don’t apologize for my passion,” Biden said, defending his speaking style to the group, then closing off the event with, “You’re all thinking, ‘Joe, go the hell home’. I’m leaving.”
WTF?
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Old 9th August 2019, 11:47 AM   #257
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Old 9th August 2019, 11:58 AM   #258
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I figure the truth/facts thing was meant to be truth/fiction.

What's worse than the verbal bumbling about Biden is what he thinks about politics & people and what he cares about doing in that arena. For example, his latest version of his famous attack on younger adults is that what he was "really" talking about was their disinterest in politics and the fact that what they should do is not just complain about the problems that his generation dumped on them but "fix it... fix it... fix it" (because everything is more motivating & inspiration if you say it three times). Nevermind whether the number of young adults who are politically involved is actually lower now than before or not or whether the world his generation created gives them any reason to be or how haughty and judgemental it is even in this latest form... this new lie comes nowhere near the actual context in which he originally said "I have no empathy... gimme a break", nor does it backtrack from having said that... which means it's a way of functionally telling us he's sticking with it.

* * *

I heard a commercial on the radio a few days ago that listed some examples of inflation by comparing amounts of money from today and a certain date years ago, as in "a new car was $x, a new house was $y, and a year of college was $z! And the average income was $w." I know they weren't looking at it this way, but that part of the commercial could just as easily have been in a political ad from a Democrat (the kind that actually tries to do stuff, not the cowering loser kind), because the changes they listed weren't by anywhere near the same factor: the expenses (x, y, z) were all up by a factor of at least 5 and maybe as much as 20, and w, the income with which to pay for those expenses, had only doubled.

And a guy who looks at that world and says that it's just fine, and that the people who have to deal with it complaining about it is just a problem with their character, is still #1 in a poll about Democrats? As Gropey Grandpa himself would put it, gimme a break.
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Old 9th August 2019, 12:17 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm liking Williamson more and more every day.
How about her connection to Scientology?

I saw her interview with Anderson Cooper and my impression of her was that she is a nutcase. We have enough of those.
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Old 9th August 2019, 12:20 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
“poor kids are just as bright, just as talented, as white kids.” Joe Biden
Do you ever have something interesting or informative to post? We know what he said.
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Old 9th August 2019, 12:23 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
Do you ever have something interesting or informative to post? We know what he said.
You should definitely do more of this. Challenging applecorped's posts is guaranteed to be time well spent.
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Old 9th August 2019, 12:53 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
How about her connection to Scientology?

I saw her interview with Anderson Cooper and my impression of her was that she is a nutcase. We have enough of those.
Precisely - for a Republican, there's a lot to like.
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Old 9th August 2019, 01:24 PM   #263
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time well spent
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Old 9th August 2019, 02:15 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
How about her connection to Scientology?
What connection? Specifics please.

Quote:
I saw her interview with Anderson Cooper and my impression of her was that she is a nutcase. We have enough of those.
My impression too. I say this gratuitously (though truthfully) because one must be careful not to get pegged as a Williamson supporter just because one asks for evidence, present company excluded of course.
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Old 9th August 2019, 02:50 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
: rolleyes :
LOL.

Quote:
Is that your way of insulting the crop of Democratic candidates
Nope. If I wanted to insult them as a group, I'd just point out that they're all Democrats. Williamson I sincerely like.

Quote:
Like you would seriously vote for anyone but a Republican and that means Trump as much as you deny it.
You are very wrong. I plan to vote for Williamson or Gabbard in the primary. If either of them happens to get the nomination, I'll happily vote for them over Trump. I'd rather either of them over any of the other Dems, and over Trump Himself (PBUH, SPQR, Esq. Etc.). I know you don't believe me, and sadly there's no practical way to prove it, but hopefully we can at least agree that you don't have to keep harping on it.

Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
How about her connection to Scientology?
How about it?

Depending on the nature of the connection, it might be a dealbreaker for me. I draw the line somewhere around Mormonism.

Quote:
I saw her interview with Anderson Cooper and my impression of her was that she is a nutcase. We have enough of those.
I'm on the Douglas Adams end of the spectrum: Anyone with the will to seek the presidency is probably too much of a nutcase to really be trusted with it. Unfortunately, we don't have any alternatives. At least we've proven that our system of government is strong enough to survive a nutcase without any serious damage.
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Old 9th August 2019, 03:00 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
What connection? Specifics please.

My impression too. I say this gratuitously (though truthfully) because one must be careful not to get pegged as a Williamson supporter just because one asks for evidence, present company excluded of course.
I do't know about the Scientoogy claim, but any review of Williamson past shows she is a classic New Age Nutjob.
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Old 9th August 2019, 03:08 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I do't know about the Scientoogy claim, but any review of Williamson past shows she is a classic New Age Nutjob.
And apparently Gabbard has a history of pandering to nutjob-douchebag wing of the party. But her takedown of Harris in the debates was probably the debatiest thing I've seen in recent campaigns. Both in terms of delivery and content, it really impressed me.

But Williamson is probably the closest thing to a unifying figure in American politics today, on either side of the aisle.
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Old 9th August 2019, 03:18 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I do't know about the Scientoogy claim, but any review of Williamson past shows she is a classic New Age Nutjob.
Basically, she supported the groups views on psychiatry and supported no medication for those with mental health issues. Radically against anti-depressants.
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Old 9th August 2019, 03:21 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
Basically, she supported the groups views on psychiatry and supported no medication for those with mental health issues. Radically against anti-depressants.
Basically, did she endorse the Scientology views?

Or does she just happen to have similar views on that subject, without having any connection to them?
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Old 9th August 2019, 03:47 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You are very wrong. I plan to vote for Williamson or Gabbard in the primary. If either of them happens to get the nomination, I'll happily vote for them over Trump. I'd rather either of them over any of the other Dems, and over Trump Himself (PBUH, SPQR, Esq. Etc.). I know you don't believe me, and sadly there's no practical way to prove it, but hopefully we can at least agree that you don't have to keep harping on it.
Are you still considering voting for Bernie Sanders.
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Old 9th August 2019, 04:00 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
Do you ever have something interesting or informative to post? We know what he said.
I think there was one time -- can't remember what it was, but I remember thinking "Huh! Didn't see that one coming."
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Old 9th August 2019, 04:04 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Are you still considering voting for Bernie Sanders.
Still? I haven't done that since Hillary won the 2016 primaries.
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Old 9th August 2019, 04:10 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Basically, did she endorse the Scientology views?

Or does she just happen to have similar views on that subject, without having any connection to them?
How is that different?
Obviously membership and supporting the organization isn't true, but yes, is the answer to your first question.

This has an in-depth discussion of the issue: Anderson Cooper interview
Quote:
...Then you [Williamson] linked to this article that was clearly suggesting antidepressants played a role in his [Robin Williams] death. Do you know who wrote that article? That was by an organization funded by the Church of Scientology, which doesn’t even believe in psychiatry, doesn’t believe in psychiatric medicine for even serious mental illness. They even have a museum in Hollywood called psychiatry, an industry of death,’ Cooper said.

Williamson said she is not “some Tom Cruise about antidepressants,” alluding to the actor’s disapproval of medication, a tenet of his Church of Scientology beliefs.
So Williamson has been citing a Scientology paper but otherwise has no connection to promoting Scientology. Seems clear enough including how Wasapi's mistake happened.

Instead of trying to change the subject to Wasapi's comment (which needed to be addressed mind you but now has been), perhaps we can get back to all the reasons supporting Williamson is either trolling, or impossible to honestly and intelligently support given she's a nut-case.
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Old 9th August 2019, 04:15 PM   #274
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On Williamson and her views, that article I linked to shows that the reason she thinks depression is mostly bogus is because of her personal anecdotes. How uncritically thought out is that?
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Old 9th August 2019, 06:43 PM   #275
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chain....yanked
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Old 9th August 2019, 08:49 PM   #276
Venom
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Still? I haven't done that since Hillary won the 2016 primaries.
Pretty sure I remember you saying you'd vote for Sanders over Trump.
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Old 10th August 2019, 03:35 AM   #277
Aridas
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Warren Plan - My Plan to Invest in Rural America.

Mmm. An actual plan to address many of the needs of rural America.
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Old 10th August 2019, 04:43 AM   #278
applecorped
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Warren Plan - My Plan to Invest in Rural America.

Mmm. An actual plan to address many of the needs of rural America.

You obviously didn't read it because there's no plan there just the usual rail against big business and the promise of medicare-for-all and hopefully that'll help rural America ..........somehow
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Last edited by applecorped; 10th August 2019 at 04:45 AM.
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Old 10th August 2019, 05:48 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
You obviously didn't read it because there's no plan there just the usual rail against big business and the promise of medicare-for-all and hopefully that'll help rural America ..........somehow
Firstly, may I congratulate you for managing more than twenty words. However, I now see why you tend to stick to emojis.

67% of Americans filing for bankruptcy cited illness and medical bills as a contributing factor. Universal healthcare would address that, as well as improving workforce mobility. As Medicare is an established system in the US, expanding it would be possible, and if everyone is covered, then you don't need the administrative costs associated with determining entitlement. Medicare is already one of the more cost-effective systems of US health funding. It could be better by allowing the government to negotiate bulk discounts, which is currently banned by law.

Look at my signature - the UK government spends a smaller proportion of its GDP on healthcare than the US government. That is due to the inherent inefficiencies of the US system.

Tackling healthcare issues would directly address a major cause of poverty, as well as improving the lives of most of the population. It would thus have a positive impact on many aspects of the economy.

But coming back to your claim that Warren has no plan beyond medicare for all:

True medicare for all is part of the plan. But she lays out other parts that are complementary to that:
  • I will create a new designation that reimburses rural hospitals at a higher rate, relieves distance requirements, and offers flexibility of services by assessing the needs of their communities.
  • As President, I will direct the FTC to block all future mergers between hospitals unless the merging companies can show that the newly-merged entity will maintain or improve access to care.
  • I’ll also put forward a set of reforms to strengthen FTC oversight over health care organizations, including establishing new federal regulations and guidance to require that all mergers involving health care centers be reported to the FTC.
  • That’s why I will increase funding for Community Health Centers by 15 percent per year over the next five years. I will also establish a $25 billion dollar capital fund to support a menu of options for improving access to care in health professional shortage areas

Then there are her non-medical aspects:
  • My plan for Universal Child Care will provide access to high-quality child care in every community that is free for millions and affordable for everyone.
  • My housing plan invests $523 million to create 380,000 affordable rental homes in rural communities and provides an additional $2 billion to help homeowners with underwater mortgages still struggling to recover from the financial crisis. It also invests $2.5 billion to build or rehabilitate 200,000 homes on tribal lands, where overcrowding, homelessness, and substandard housing have reached crisis levels.
  • My plan to cancel up to $50,000 in student loan debt will mean that recent graduates won’t need to flock to urban centers to find jobs that will help them pay down these loans. And my plan to provide universal free technical, two-year, and four-year public college will make sure that no student is ever put in this situation again.
ETA: The highlighted - this compares to an estimated $107-Million for Trump's golf trips to date.

She also lists broadband access as key, which it is for many rural businesses in the UK, and there is no reason why the US should be different. Again, these don't look particularly extreme from a European perspective.
  • And why I will spend $2 trillion in green research, manufacturing, and exporting to create more than a million new jobs, reversing the manufacturing losses that many rural communities have experienced over the last two decades.
  • I’ve also called for a $400 billion commitment in clean energy research and development — funding that will go to land grant universities, rural areas, and areas that have seen the worst job losses in recent years. I’ll dramatically scale up worker training programs, spending $20 billion on apprenticeships and instituting new sectoral training programs to boost job opportunities for people across Rural America.
  • My immigration plan will raise wages for everyone and make sure that businesses won’t be able to get away with dirty tricks that undercut pay.
  • That’s why I’ve proposed allowing the U.S. Postal Service to partner with local community banks and credit unions to provide access to low-cost, basic banking services online and at post offices.
And again, a similar model has been used in the UK, as rural access to banking facilities is vital.
  • That’s why I will establish a $7 billion fund to close the gap in startup capital for entrepreneurs of color, which will support 100,000 new minority-owned businesses, provide over a million new jobs, and further boost economic development in rural areas.
  • I’ll rein in Wall Street to hold private equity firms accountable and keep them from destroying businesses that bring economic opportunity — and jobs — to small towns and rural
This last one, there are ways that work in Germany.
  • That’s why I’ve pledged to address consolidation in the agriculture sector by reviewing — and reversing — anti-competitive mergers and breaking up big agribusinesses that have become vertically integrated.
  • And I’ll take it one step further — charting a new farm economy that replaces our government’s failed approach with one that guarantees farmers a fair price and protects our environment.

I'm not sure how these last two would work, or indeed if it would actually be a good idea, but that is indeed more than just "medicare for all".
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

Last edited by jimbob; 10th August 2019 at 05:52 AM.
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Old 10th August 2019, 06:03 AM   #280
varwoche
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
You obviously didn't read it because there's no plan there just the usual rail against big business and the promise of medicare-for-all and hopefully that'll help rural America ..........somehow
I didn't follow the link -- it wants a sign-in. So I located another source. The central point of this plan involves high speed broadband. You're foisting misinformation, and perhaps you didn't read the plan.
Quote:
Warren’s broadband plan would grant $85 billion in federal money to subsidize building out broadband networks in rural communities.
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