ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags donald trump , Ilhan Omar , immigration issues , racism incidents , racism issues , Trump controversies

Reply
Old 21st July 2019, 03:41 AM   #401
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 25,512
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
The point that needs to be repeated is that the person he's retweeting and in whose support he's wallowing is generally tied for first in the UK vote for "Who's the Most Xenophobic Bigot in the Country". Some polls she finishes in first. But then Tommy Robinson will get into the news for a few days and he wins the next poll.
Tommy Robinson is at least sincere. Katie Hopkins just says whatever she thinks will get the loudest reaction. That means that perhaps she really is racist, but there's no real way to tell whether she is or whether she's just pretending to be one because doing so is how she makes her money.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 04:30 AM   #402
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 24,100
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm sure rural Americans having essentially no representation on the Federal level would be quite ok for you, but not for them. You do understand that this is what the Senate and EC were supposed to address, correct?

Not really, no.

At that time all of the nascent states were essentially rural. There were only a handful of "cities", and their influence was focussed mostly as economic centers of activity, not as centers of population.

It wasn't' anything "rural" which the EC and Senate were meant to address, and it didn't have much to do with size for that matter. It was for states which were were small in population. The Wyomings and Dakotas of today didn't exist yet. It was the New Hampshires and Rhode Islands that were concerned about equal representation.

Sure, they were "rural", but so was nearly everyone else for all practical purposes. How rural? The reason Tuesday was chosen as the day for national elections was because so many voters needed a day to travel to the polls by horse and buggy, and they didn't want to have to do that on a Sunday, the Sabbath.

What they were, more significantly, was underpopulated.

Where this actually became most involved wasn't about the Senate, but about the way populations were counted for the proportional House of Representatives.

If taxes from the states to the Fed were based on straight population, then the Southern slave states would have to pay taxes based on non-voting "property".

They didn't like that idea.

If the number of members of the House of Representatives allocated to a given state was based on the number of people and not the number of "citizens" then the Northern non-slave states would lose representation to states with a large population which had no civil rights and weren't allowed to vote for those Representatives.

They didn't like that idea.

Tough luck for them. The Three Fifths Compromise, which cut that baby into two pieces, still gave the Southern States a lock on the Electoral College which wasn't really broken to any significant degree until after the Civil War and the 13th and 14th Amendments.

Even if that hadn't happened they still would have had voting representation in the House far in excess of those small states, just not as much. Not enough to overwhelm the non-slave states the way they ended up doing for decades.

"Rural" really didn't have much to do with it. At the time "rural" was not a synonym for "underpopulated". It was just the way nearly everyone lived.

This didn't really change all that much until the close of the 19th century. As late as 1900 60% of the U.S was still considered to live in "rural" areas. 40% lived on farms.

The rural/urban dichotomy you describe is a comparatively recent political issue. It wasn't anything the Founding Fathers lost much sleep over.
__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."

"Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

Last edited by quadraginta; 21st July 2019 at 04:34 AM.
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 04:33 AM   #403
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 31,754
Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Wrong. Still here, but still waiting for intelligent discussion to comment on. So far all I see is two entrenched sides talking past one another.
Do you?

How would you describe the positions of those two entrenched sides?
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 05:00 AM   #404
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 84,992
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
The rural/urban dichotomy you describe is a comparatively recent political issue. It wasn't anything the Founding Fathers lost much sleep over.
You are correct. I meant the smaller states vs the larger ones, which now happen to be rural.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 05:16 AM   #405
WilliamSeger
Philosopher
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,016
Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Wrong. Still here, but still waiting for intelligent discussion to comment on. So far all I see is two entrenched sides talking past one another.
That's some Grade A ********, unless you're seriously trying to decide between trumpism and basic human decency.
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 05:59 AM   #406
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 25,638
Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Wrong. Still here, but still waiting for intelligent discussion to comment on. So far all I see is two entrenched sides talking past one another.
Instead of waiting for intelligent discussion, why not show everyone the way. Maybe you could start by explaining the intelligent way that conservatives should respond to Donald Trump’s naked bigotry, assuming you have an intelligent response to it.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 06:03 AM   #407
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 22,214
Trump Tweets

I don’t believe the four Congresswomen are capable of loving our Country. They should apologize to America (and Israel) for the horrible (hateful) things they have said. They are destroying the Democrat Party, but are weak & insecure people who can never destroy our great Nation!
Captain_Swoop is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 06:15 AM   #408
Regnad Kcin
Philosopher
 
Regnad Kcin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 9,440
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump supporting Diamond and Silk®

Tweeted this support for the presidents 'words'
Quote:
Nancy Pelosi said the WORDS that the President used were racist. But those same words are in the Dictionary. Does that mean that the Dictionary is now racist? Should all Dictionaries be banned since Democrats are offended by words? #TDS
Send. Them. Back.*



*To. School.
__________________
My heros are Alex Zanardi and Evelyn Glennie.
Regnad Kcin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 06:21 AM   #409
Red Baron Farms
Illuminator
 
Red Baron Farms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,836
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Instead of waiting for intelligent discussion, why not show everyone the way. Maybe you could start by explaining the intelligent way that conservatives should respond to Donald Trump’s naked bigotry, assuming you have an intelligent response to it.
I already made that response

Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
I am not so sure actually. No doubt it was rude crude and socially unacceptable, but I am not at all so sure it actually is racist. I am fairly certain is is more nationalism/patriotism than actually racism. I do believe that if anyone of any race were to take similar political positions having immigrated from a European country, Trump would have the same type of things to say. He is easily capable of telling a German to go back to his country if he doesn't like America, or a Frenchman, or even a Canadian, as he would those 4. It's just not many German or French Americans have politics anywhere near as radical as them.

The crowd on the other hand? I am sure there are many many Americans in this country that just don't like Muslims. Seeing as how we have been at war with Muslim countries for decades now, it is certainly there just under the surface. I personally don't think it is wise to tap into that, but Trump is after all at his core a New York Elitist Liberal who until snubbed by Hilary actually was most his life a Democrat. About the only way he can possibly get the conservative vote is to tap into something to distract voters from realizing that he actually represents what most of them don't like at all. And how do you do that? By focusing on something they dislike even more.
__________________
Scott
"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison
Biome Carbon Cycle Management

Last edited by Red Baron Farms; 21st July 2019 at 06:24 AM.
Red Baron Farms is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 06:22 AM   #410
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State.
Posts: 18,786
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

I don’t believe the four Congresswomen are capable of loving our Country. They should apologize to America (and Israel) for the horrible (hateful) things they have said. They are destroying the Democrat Party, but are weak & insecure people who can never destroy our great Nation!
The magascum will eat that up at the next rally.
__________________
A MAGA hat = a Swastika arm band.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 06:30 AM   #411
WilliamSeger
Philosopher
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,016
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

I don’t believe the four Congresswomen are capable of loving our Country. They should apologize to America (and Israel) for the horrible (hateful) things they have said. They are destroying the Democrat Party, but are weak & insecure people who can never destroy our great Nation!
And for those who insist on losing the plot: All this began when Trump expressed his outrage that these women whose "countries of origin" were crime-infested ****-holes are telling the "people of the United States" how to run "our" government. If you can convince yourself that that isn't blatantly racist and blatantly un-American, then you will have lied to yourself several times along the way.

Last edited by WilliamSeger; 21st July 2019 at 07:03 AM. Reason: typo
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 06:40 AM   #412
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State.
Posts: 18,786
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

I don’t believe the four Congresswomen are capable of loving our Country. They should apologize to America (and Israel) for the horrible (hateful) things they have said. They are destroying the Democrat Party, but are weak & insecure people who can never destroy our great Nation!
Well, Trump would be the expert on disloyalty being as he's a filthy Russian whore.
__________________
A MAGA hat = a Swastika arm band.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 06:54 AM   #413
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 31,754
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

I don’t believe the four Congresswomen are capable of loving our Country. They should apologize to America (and Israel) for the horrible (hateful) things they have said.
As Zig points out, the President of the United States is accusing popularly elected state representatives of committing thought crimes against the country. Scary stuff, there.

Right, Zig?
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 07:03 AM   #414
Delphic Oracle
Illuminator
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 3,547
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It IS a fact. Oracle has said this directly. If it's insulting to point out a fact, that's no my problem.
Nowhere did I ever challenge the idea that 4 is greater than 2.

I challenged you calling "FACT" (which you seem to think means "I am really emphatic about this right now") a proportional system that hasn't even been fully described or settled on resulting in "essentially no representation."

Basically this entire exercise is you declaring we may not have this discussion any further unless we first agree that it will result in crushing the rural people under our callous urban boots.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 07:03 AM   #415
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Arcadia, Greece
Posts: 25,368
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
The magascum will eat that up at the next rally.
I read that as some obscure and quite impressive Latin word for a moment
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 07:04 AM   #416
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 20,332
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
As Zig points out, the President of the United States is accusing popularly elected state representatives of committing thought crimes against the country. Scary stuff, there.

Right, Zig?
I thought we weren't "feeding" him.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 07:06 AM   #417
newyorkguy
Penultimate Amazing
 
newyorkguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: NY
Posts: 10,173
What I find interesting is, late last week Trump seemed to be responding to criticism of the "Send her back" chants and distancing himself from it. That was very surprising to me, it seemed out of character, and I wondered why he was doing it.
Quote:
President Donald Trump said Thursday that he isn’t happy with his supporters’ “send her back” chant directed at progressive Rep. Ilhan Omar, D-Minn., that erupted at his North Carolina rally on Wednesday. “I was not happy with it — I disagree with it,” Trump told reporters at the White House. Link
But just a day later he reversed himself.
Quote:
Donald Trump broadly declared on Friday that no one should criticise the United States while he is president, part of a renewed attack on four minority congresswomen whom he has targeted as un-American. Mr Trump also praised his supporters at a rally where they chanted, “Send her back!”, a refrain directed at one of the lawmakers, Somali-born Ilhan Omar. The president called the campaign crowd “incredible patriots” – a day after saying he disagreed with the chant. Link
It looks like the immediate condemnations of the chanting spooked Donnie. "I disagree with it." But then the polling they do must've shown a lot of his base -- most of his base, all of his base? -- loved it and he quickly changed course.
newyorkguy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 07:07 AM   #418
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 44,118
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
This. Is. Pathetic.

Personally, I think he's a Travis follower (Travis called 'em concentration camps in a thread starter in November, last year.)
If you take seriously the concept that inflammatory rhetoric can lead to violence, then AOCs rhetoric is a problem. But I don't think you do take it seriously. I think you only take it when it's convenient for your partisan interests.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 07:08 AM   #419
Delphic Oracle
Illuminator
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 3,547
Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
I already made that response
Trump has had all the time in the world to tell Bernie to "go back" and hasn't.

There goes your theory that nobody but these 4 women are soooooo radical.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 07:09 AM   #420
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 31,754
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I thought we weren't "feeding" him.
I thought we weren't feeding trolling arguments.

Is mocking trolling arguments really feeding them?
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 07:13 AM   #421
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 20,332
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I thought we weren't feeding trolling arguments.

Is mocking trolling arguments really feeding them?
Near as I can tell at this point is only "feeding" the trolls when I talk to them, everybody else seems to be able to without getting the mother hen act.

I think some people are mistakenly thinking they are engaging the trolls on some functionally different level from other people.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 07:23 AM   #422
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 31,754
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Near as I can tell at this point is only "feeding" the trolls when I talk to them, everybody else seems to be able to without getting the mother hen act.
Perception and memory are funny, imperfect things. I admonished two other people* before you questioned the wisdom of not feeding trolls. Only then did I ever address you specifically** about the topic and, then, more of on a meta level.


* page 4
** page 5
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 07:47 AM   #423
Armitage72
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 3,276
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Well, Trump would be the expert on disloyalty being as he's a filthy Russian whore.

He's also an expert on being weak and insecure.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
Armitage72 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 08:03 AM   #424
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 21,428
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If you take seriously the concept that inflammatory rhetoric can lead to violence, then AOCs rhetoric is a problem. But I don't think you do take it seriously. I think you only take it when it's convenient for your partisan interests.
The conditions in the camps is inhumane and not dissimilar to those of the Japanese internment camps during the second world war - when at least there was more reason to believe that there was a threat.
children in cages, no bedding, forced to sleep on concrete floors, no facilities for brushing their teeth, forcible separation from their parents
It's reasonable to call the camps what they are, which is concentration camps, of the model as introduced by the British in the Boer War and the Americans in WWII to inter Japanese Americans.

If AOC had called them "death camps" I would indeed say that would be inflammatory language. She hasn't.
Of course, for added fun, InfoWars promoted the completely imaginary "FEMA Death Camps" and Trump was perfectly happy with supporting them and receiving their support.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 08:06 AM   #425
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 84,992
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Nowhere did I ever challenge the idea that 4 is greater than 2.
Not literally, obviously. But you called "speculation" the idea that in a proportional system, the larger group gets the say and the smaller group doesn't. I mean, that's exactly what "proportional" means, but there you have it.

Quote:
Basically this entire exercise is you declaring we may not have this discussion any further unless we first agree that it will result in crushing the rural people under our callous urban boots.
Say what?

We're discussing a statement by another poster which I've addressed. Who the hell said we can't "have this discussion any further" until this is resolved? Did you miss the part where I was arguing with theprestige and Ziggurat that the statement was clearly racist?

This is at least the third time in this discussion where you've stepped right into the Twilight Zone and pretended that things have unfolded completely differently than what happened in reality. You've either got your wires crossed or you're so combative that you can't tell your 'opponents' apart.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 08:06 AM   #426
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 11,879
Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
I already made that response
Farting is rude, crude and socially unacceptable.

Let's leave the racism issue aside. At the least, this is a matter of xenophobia. Trump has more or less suggested that immigrants (whether citizens or not) and children of immigrants (and children of Puerto Rico and maybe African Americans) should not criticize the U.S and the president. They should go back to where they "came from".

This is rather more concerning than merely socially unacceptable. These are not folk who come here and take advantage of the U.S. while complaining and doing nothing. Omar is contributing. She's an elected representative. She's working on changing things for the better (as she sees it), not destroying the nation.

Even when we disagree with our political opponents, we should see that it is almost always a difference of opinion about how to best benefit the nation. Rarely will we find someone working to destroy our nation. Even Trump doesn't hate America. He perhaps cares less than he pretends with all the flag humping, but he's not out to destroy the nation. He is at worst indifferent to its long-term welfare, more interested in his own personal benefit.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 08:09 AM   #427
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 84,992
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If you take seriously the concept that inflammatory rhetoric can lead to violence, then AOCs rhetoric is a problem.
That may be the case. But do you really think calling these places concentration camps can reasonably be expected to incite violence? And how do you think it compares to Trump calling these same persons anti-American and vile and somesuch? Isn't that a whole lot more dangerous?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 08:09 AM   #428
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 25,638
Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
I already made that response
That's a ridiculous response. Three of them were born in the United States. Why is he telling them to "go back" when that's where they are from?

And as for your claim that Trump has to appeal to the basest motives of his supporters, that doesn't even reach the level of a try, let alone a nice one.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 08:45 AM   #429
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 41,410
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If you take seriously the concept that inflammatory rhetoric can lead to violence, then AOCs rhetoric is a problem. But I don't think you do take it seriously. I think you only take it when it's convenient for your partisan interests.
You'll be able to show me:

A) Where AOC has said something actually exhorting violence.
B) Where I've approved it.

Of course, you will, but you'll find some obvious nitpick that you can turn into a "You first!" distraction and penalize me for not being kind and helpful in showing that your arguments are pitiful and painfully partisan.

Hint: Calling a concentration camp a concentration camp is not an exhortation to violence. It is accurate reporting.
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 08:53 AM   #430
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 22,855
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Snip...
If AOC had called them "death camps" I would indeed say that would be inflammatory language. She hasn't.
Snip...
Which is not to say no one has died in them, because they have.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 09:52 AM   #431
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 12,220
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If you take seriously the concept that inflammatory rhetoric can lead to violence, then AOCs rhetoric is a problem. But I don't think you do take it seriously. I think you only take it when it's convenient for your partisan interests.
I'd like to thank Zig for lowering the bar on what qualifies as violence-provoking inflammatory rhetoric, thus making it that much easier to demonstrate just how much the Right embraces violence, a task that was already laughably easy.

*Post bookmarked*
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 09:53 AM   #432
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 21,428
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Snip...
If AOC had called them "death camps" I would indeed say that would be inflammatory language. She hasn't.
Snip...
Which is not to say no one has died in them, because they have.
True, unlike the FEMA Death Camps that InfoWars promoted, during the 2016 campaign, and Trump (then and after his inauguration) was happy to endorse Alex Jones.
That's the thing about being a Trump apologist; if one has something that could have the slightest validity as a criticism of his opponents, he, or his supporters, will have done something along those lines but worse and utterly clear-cut, with his approval
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 10:00 AM   #433
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 44,118
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That may be the case. But do you really think calling these places concentration camps can reasonably be expected to incite violence? And how do you think it compares to Trump calling these same persons anti-American and vile and somesuch? Isn't that a whole lot more dangerous?
Why do you think it's more dangerous? So far, we've had violence against CBP. We haven't had violence against the squad.

Its possible that Trump could inspire violence with what he said, and it's also possible that AOC could inspire further violence with hers. But we're dealing with the statistics of small numbers here. We can't get reliable statistics. And any analysis based on some principles of how speech affects actions is going to be subject to the biases of whoever is doing that analysis.

And at some point, we have to accept that crazy people are dangerous, and can be inspired to violence by just about anything. The Giffords shooter was motivated be the belief that grammar was a government mind control plot, although Palin was unfairly blamed for it. Absent actual calls for violence, we have to allow criticism, even when it's over the top of inflammatory. We can't clamp down of criticism because of hypothetical violence. It won't work, and it won't be applied fairly. There's room to criticize what Trump said without having to appeal to this hypothetical threat.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 10:04 AM   #434
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 12,220
Police officer non-hypothetically threatens Ocasio-Cortez.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 10:07 AM   #435
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 76,006
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this, but it sounds bad - do you want some smelling salts?
__________________
That new avatar is cuteness overload.
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 10:11 AM   #436
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 11,879
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why do you think it's more dangerous? So far, we've had violence against CBP. We haven't had violence against the squad.
A bizarre comparison.

Trump's statements strongly suggest that immigrant citizens, children of immigrants and maybe African Americans[1] should not criticize the U.S. or him. They should instead go back where they came from. This, to folk elected to Congress, whose job includes calling for changes and improvements to the government.

Even if Trump's rhetoric leads to no literal violence, it is terrible for the good of the nation. Omar is a citizen and has every right to criticize the government. Indeed, she has a right to hate the U.S., not that there is any reason to believe she does. The same is true for the remainder of the squad. They are full-fledged citizens and indeed representatives of their districts. Yet Trump is echoing the Know-Nothings of old (not my observation, comes from a WaPo editorial), strongly suggesting that they have no right to speak freely about the faults of the U.S. or the president.

Now, frankly, I believe that Trump's words will lead to negative effects. Others will feel emboldened to visible bigotry to those appearing foreign. Real violence may occur as well, but you will dismiss it as just a crazy guy who woulda been crazy anyway.


[1] He's dropped down to three congresspersons lately, so maybe he realizes that Pressley isn't remotely an immigrant and she's off the list. Or maybe he can't count. Or whatever.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 10:15 AM   #437
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 11,879
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
To be fair, the chief didn't think it was a serious threat.

Quote:
Lawson said he does not think the comment constitutes an actual threat, but it appears to violate the department's social media policy, which he said all officers have read and signed.
I think he's right. It's inflammatory speech. The cop wasn't suggesting that he would shoot AOC. I'm not sure, but it may be protected speech.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 10:15 AM   #438
Delphic Oracle
Illuminator
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 3,547
Threats of physical harm and intimidation are violent.

They violate a person's freedom to engage in lawful actions and maintain their beliefs without repression.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 10:18 AM   #439
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 76,006
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
My use of "essentially" should be a hint that it's not actually zero. ....


Sounds like Trump's Twitter response team.

The worst part of this is that you got your feathers in a ruffle because we didn't read your mind.

And it still means you didn't respond when I asked you, so then doesn't that mean the people in the populated states have zero representation?

As for not saying it was OK, if it's not OK for either side, then then what was your point? Still trying to educate us about the EC?
__________________
That new avatar is cuteness overload.
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 21st July 2019 at 10:25 AM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 10:19 AM   #440
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 11,879
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Threats of physical harm and intimidation are violent.

They violate a person's freedom to engage in lawful actions and maintain their beliefs without repression.
This was a Facebook post on a private page, viewable by Friends and Friends of Friends. I don't as intimidation.

Grossly inappropriate, sure. Worth firing him over? Probably, though I'm not sure how social media policies and the First Amendment interact.

It was a terrible thing to write. I've probably said in private conversations that someone I find foolish or dangerous "oughta be shot". No one would've thought I was threatening or intimidating anyone.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:26 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.