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Tags donald trump , Ilhan Omar , immigration issues , racism incidents , racism issues , Trump controversies

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Old 21st July 2019, 10:26 AM   #441
GlennB
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why do you think it's more dangerous? So far, we've had violence against CBP. We haven't had violence against the squad.

Its possible that Trump could inspire violence with what he said, and it's also possible that AOC could inspire further violence with hers...
In which you try to establish that she at some point inspired some violence with her rhetoric.

Nice try. No cigar.
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Last edited by GlennB; 21st July 2019 at 10:29 AM. Reason: reworded for clarity
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Old 21st July 2019, 10:31 AM   #442
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Hannity Offers Most Ridiculous Defense of 'Send Her Back' Chant Yet

Again, racism isn't racism if you break it into its component parts and ignore racist components, amirite?
”...these views are repugnant.” Would that be the “views” that Dishonest Don largely plucked out of his Big Bag o’ Racism?
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Old 21st July 2019, 10:37 AM   #443
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
To be fair, the chief didn't think it was a serious threat.

I think he's right. It's inflammatory speech. The cop wasn't suggesting that he would shoot AOC. I'm not sure, but it may be protected speech.
It's not protected, it's against their department policy.

Do you really think it's OK for police to publicly advocate shooting legislators?
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Old 21st July 2019, 10:38 AM   #444
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
”...these views are repugnant.” Would that be the “views” that Dishonest Don largely plucked out of his Big Bag o’ Racism?
Careful, there is literally nothing worse than calling Trump a racist - it's really uncivil.

Although, calling a concentration camp "a concentration camp" is almost as bad.
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Old 21st July 2019, 10:40 AM   #445
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
This was a Facebook post on a private page, viewable by Friends and Friends of Friends. I don't as intimidation.

Grossly inappropriate, sure. Worth firing him over? Probably, though I'm not sure how social media policies and the First Amendment interact.

It was a terrible thing to write. I've probably said in private conversations that someone I find foolish or dangerous "oughta be shot". No one would've thought I was threatening or intimidating anyone.
And yet it became public so "private page" is an inaccurate description.

And yes, that kind of attitude suggests to me he's not fit to be carrying around a badge and gun.
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Old 21st July 2019, 10:40 AM   #446
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's not protected, it's against their department policy.

Do you really think it's OK for police to publicly advocate shooting legislators?
It is definitely against their department policy, but I don't know whether that policy is consistent with First Amendment rights.

It wasn't publicly advocating shooting legislators. (1) It wasn't public. (2) It was likely intended as hyperbole and read that way by most folk.

I don't think he oughta've done it. I won't claim that the private Facebook post was an act of violence or a threat.
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Old 21st July 2019, 10:44 AM   #447
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And yet it became public so "private page" is an inaccurate description.
Oh? So the DNC server was public too, because the emails on it became public?

It was a private page.

Quote:
And yes, that kind of attitude suggests to me he's not fit to be carrying around a badge and gun.
If he was serious, certainly you're right. I've said "he should be shot" in private settings, never intending anyone to take me seriously. I shouldn't be denied a job on those grounds. Now, private conversation and social media posts (private or not) aren't quite the same things, perhaps, but I think one can be too harsh regarding what is said privately.
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Old 21st July 2019, 11:10 AM   #448
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why do you think it's more dangerous?
Could you answer my question, please? Let's step down from bob-ish detachment and step into what we consider to be likely.

Quote:
We haven't had violence against the squad.
Don't change the subject. The question is whether Trump's rhetoric is more dangerous than AOC's. He's at least two to one for now.
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Old 21st July 2019, 11:11 AM   #449
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Oops, three to one.
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Old 21st July 2019, 11:14 AM   #450
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post


Sounds like Trump's Twitter response team.
Stop blaming others for your inability to read properly.

Quote:
es·sen·tial·ly
/əˈsen(t)SHəlē/
adverb
used to emphasize the basic, fundamental, or intrinsic nature of a person, thing, or situation.
There. You can thank me later.

Quote:
The worst part of this is that you got your feathers in a ruffle because we didn't read your mind post.
Fixed that for you.

Quote:
And it still means you didn't respond when I asked you, so then doesn't that mean the people in the populated states have zero representation?
First of all, I did respond. Second, it's a stupid question, since they don't have zero representation as you well know.

Quote:
As for not saying it was OK, if it's not OK for either side, then then what was your point?
The point was exactly what I said. If you take time to read it for comprehension this time I'm sure you'll get better results.
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Old 21st July 2019, 11:41 AM   #451
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Fake news. Our resident right wingers will be along to defend it, and claim that 'the left' is more violent.
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Old 21st July 2019, 11:48 AM   #452
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I thought we weren't "feeding" him.
I think we can make an exception if we're feeding him his own droppings.
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Old 21st July 2019, 12:41 PM   #453
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
To be fair, the chief didn't think it was a serious threat.
You'll forgive me if a cop covering for another cop's threats of violence with a casual dismissal doesn't give me comfort.

This isn't just some random yahoo spouting off on the internet. It's a law enforcement officer who we as a society grant the authority to carry a weapon and use deadly force saying that someone with whom he disagrees with politically should be shot.

That's scary stuff.

Quote:
I think he's right. It's inflammatory speech. The cop wasn't suggesting that he would shoot AOC. I'm not sure, but it may be protected speech.
That's some wildly wide of the point hair-splitting.
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Old 21st July 2019, 12:55 PM   #454
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
Fake news. Our resident right wingers will be along to defend it, and claim that 'the left' is more violent.
Already one winding up on how the cop is the real victim here.
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Old 21st July 2019, 01:34 PM   #455
GlennB
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Oops, three to one.
Three? Three what? Hundred? When did we start counting?

Factor in the level of vitriol and it's closer to 3 thousand.
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Old 21st July 2019, 01:50 PM   #456
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Three? Three what? Hundred? When did we start counting?

Factor in the level of vitriol and it's closer to 3 thousand.
Well let's keep it to known death threats and actual acts of violence, say.
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Old 21st July 2019, 02:06 PM   #457
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
You'll forgive me if a cop covering for another cop's threats of violence with a casual dismissal doesn't give me comfort.

This isn't just some random yahoo spouting off on the internet. It's a law enforcement officer who we as a society grant the authority to carry a weapon and use deadly force saying that someone with whom he disagrees with politically should be shot.

That's scary stuff.



That's some wildly wide of the point hair-splitting.
You're right to treat the Chief's comment with a grain of salt, of course.

I'm not too concerned about the cop's statement, I'm afraid. It was wildly inappropriate and I can certainly understand discipline, perhaps even loss of job, but I don't regard it as a threat unless other evidence proves that he was seriously advocating violence.
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Old 21st July 2019, 02:20 PM   #458
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
You're right to treat the Chief's comment with a grain of salt, of course.

I'm not too concerned about the cop's statement, I'm afraid. It was wildly inappropriate and I can certainly understand discipline, perhaps even loss of job, but I don't regard it as a threat unless other evidence proves that he was seriously advocating violence.
If a law enforcement official expressed the opinion that you or someone you loved should be shot, would you be as unconcerned?
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Old 21st July 2019, 02:58 PM   #459
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
If a law enforcement official expressed the opinion that you or someone you loved should be shot, would you be as unconcerned?
This is a comment on a private Facebook page and I tend to think it was hyperbole. It was grossly inappropriate. In the same circumstance, assuming that I believed that it was not a literal call to kill my loved one, my opinion ought to be the same.

Fallible human nature being what it is, I may well take greater offense than I do now. But that is simply a matter of emotions running higher when loved ones are involved.

The cop should be disciplined, presuming that there is no First Amendment issue involved. But at present, I doubt this was a serious threat. We should treat it seriously, but not exaggerate the offense. (Were this a public statement, I'd take it as considerably more threatening, since even if the cop didn't intend to provoke an attack, he would have been making one significantly more likely.)
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Old 21st July 2019, 03:08 PM   #460
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
It is definitely against their department policy, but I don't know whether that policy is consistent with First Amendment rights.

It wasn't publicly advocating shooting legislators. (1) It wasn't public. (2) It was likely intended as hyperbole and read that way by most folk.

I don't think he oughta've done it. I won't claim that the private Facebook post was an act of violence or a threat.
We just had this discussion in another thread.

I'm not sure a police department policy about conduct fits the definition of a law.
Quote:
Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech,
Nor is a police department the equivalent of Congress.


Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Oh? So the DNC server was public too, because the emails on it became public?

It was a private page.
It wasn't hacked. When you share a FB page you don't get a notice warning you about who or how you can share it.


Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
If he was serious, certainly you're right. I've said "he should be shot" in private settings, never intending anyone to take me seriously. I shouldn't be denied a job on those grounds. Now, private conversation and social media posts (private or not) aren't quite the same things, perhaps, but I think one can be too harsh regarding what is said privately.
He didn't have to be serious. All he had to do was influence a friend or a friend of a friend. And it's not a conversation.

Personally, I don't want any cop loosely talking about assassinating anyone. Those are the kind of cops we need to weed out.
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Old 21st July 2019, 03:12 PM   #461
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
We just had this discussion in another thread.

I'm not sure a police department policy about conduct fits the definition of a law. Nor is a police department the equivalent of Congress.
I am certainly not sure either. You're right that a police department is not Congress, but I don't know if the courts have interpreted the amendment more liberally.

I'm sure that if the First Amendment is relevant, we'll hear about a court case from this. If there is no such case, then I'd wager there's no clear legal issue at all.
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Old 21st July 2019, 03:16 PM   #462
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
[snipped irrelevant parts]
Nothing left.
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Old 21st July 2019, 03:16 PM   #463
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
This is a comment on a private Facebook page and I tend to think it was hyperbole. It was grossly inappropriate. In the same circumstance, assuming that I believed that it was not a literal call to kill my loved one, my opinion ought to be the same.

Fallible human nature being what it is, I may well take greater offense than I do now. But that is simply a matter of emotions running higher when loved ones are involved.

The cop should be disciplined, presuming that there is no First Amendment issue involved. But at present, I doubt this was a serious threat. We should treat it seriously, but not exaggerate the offense. (Were this a public statement, I'd take it as considerably more threatening, since even if the cop didn't intend to provoke an attack, he would have been making one significantly more likely.)
If a threat of violence is made against you or a loved one by a police officer, what specific indicators would you look for to let you know it was literal and therefore serious?
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Old 21st July 2019, 03:19 PM   #464
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
You're right to treat the Chief's comment with a grain of salt, of course.

I'm not too concerned about the cop's statement, I'm afraid. It was wildly inappropriate and I can certainly understand discipline, perhaps even loss of job, but I don't regard it as a threat unless other evidence proves that he was seriously advocating violence.
Again, it doesn't have to be him directly to lead to violence.

Trump does the same thing in his Tweets and at his rallies then denies culpability.
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Old 21st July 2019, 03:25 PM   #465
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Again, it doesn't have to be him directly to lead to violence.

Trump does the same thing in his Tweets and at his rallies then denies culpability.
White supremacists have a whole philosophy about deniably inciting "lone wolves" to do their dirty work.
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Old 21st July 2019, 03:28 PM   #466
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
If a threat of violence is made against you or a loved one by a police officer, what specific indicators would you look for to let you know it was literal and therefore serious?
Look, you may disagree with me that it was unlikely meant seriously that someone should shoot her, but you cannot ask me how to interpret written communication as if hyperbole is unknown to you.

The statement was made with a (dumb) joke in the middle of it. It does not strike me as a literal call to violence.

"She should be killed! Seriously! And also, she was a loser bartender!"

I just don't read it as a literal call to violence.
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Old 21st July 2019, 03:30 PM   #467
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Again, it doesn't have to be him directly to lead to violence.

Trump does the same thing in his Tweets and at his rallies then denies culpability.
And again, this was a comment on a private Facebook page, one accessible only to Friends and Friends of Friends. A public statement would have been much more serious to me.
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Old 21st July 2019, 03:39 PM   #468
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
This is a comment on a private Facebook page and I tend to think it was hyperbole. ...
You might see it differently but I don't think the word, hyperbole applies to an action like a threat except passively describing the threat.

But that's neither here nor there.

More importantly, FaceBook, by its nature, is not private and anyone who thinks it is hasn't been paying attention since about 2005.
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Old 21st July 2019, 03:45 PM   #469
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I am certainly not sure either. You're right that a police department is not Congress, but I don't know if the courts have interpreted the amendment more liberally.

I'm sure that if the First Amendment is relevant, we'll hear about a court case from this. If there is no such case, then I'd wager there's no clear legal issue at all.
That was rhetorical. I am sure.

And you'd be laughed out of your lawyer's office if you were that cop fighting this on a First Amendment basis. No doubt he'd claim it violated his union contract if he gets fired. But given his supervisor appears to think it's a non-issue, I can't see him getting fired.
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Old 21st July 2019, 03:45 PM   #470
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
We just had this discussion in another thread.

I'm not sure a police department policy about conduct fits the definition of a law. Nor is a police department the equivalent of Congress.
Courts have consistently ruled that the first amendment can apply to government institutions all the way down to local schools and their policy. Even thought the text literally refers to laws and congress, policies and other government entities are bound by it to some degree.

For instance:
Minarcini v. Strongsville (Ohio) City School District

Courts apply the first amendment to state laws and actions, towns, cities, school boards, libraries.

You're not wrong about the conclusion that this is not protected speech, but those aren't the reasons.
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Old 21st July 2019, 03:46 PM   #471
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You might see it differently but I don't think the word, hyperbole applies to an action like a threat except passively describing the threat.

But that's neither here nor there.

More importantly, FaceBook, by its nature, is not private and anyone who thinks it is hasn't been paying attention since about 2005.
This post was not easily accessible to the general public. I assume that a Friend or Friend of a Friend leaked the post.

That's private enough not to worry that he was likely to encourage violence, at least before this story.

Honestly, the proximate cause for his outburst isn't Trump's comments, by the way. It was a (literally) fake news story about AOC claiming soldiers are overpaid. This whole story has very little to do with the topic here.
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Old 21st July 2019, 03:47 PM   #472
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That was rhetorical, I am sure.
I don't know what you mean.

Quote:
And you'd be laughed out of your lawyer's office if you were that cop fighting this on a First Amendment basis. No doubt he'd claim it violated his union contract if he gets fired. But given his supervisor appears to think it's a non-issue, I can't see him getting fired.
You seem confident. I don't know. You could be right, but I can't claim to have an informed opinion.
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Old 21st July 2019, 03:56 PM   #473
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Courts have consistently ruled that the first amendment can apply to government institutions all the way down to local schools and their policy. Even thought the text literally refers to laws and congress, policies and other government entities are bound by it to some degree.

For instance:
Minarcini v. Strongsville (Ohio) City School District

Courts apply the first amendment to state laws and actions, towns, cities, school boards, libraries.

You're not wrong about the conclusion that this is not protected speech, but those aren't the reasons.
Would it have killed you to post a link?

https://www.acluohio.org/archives/ca...chool-district
Quote:
City School District refused to approve faculty recommendations for using Joseph Heller’s Catch-22 and Kurt Vonnegut’s God Bless You Mr. Rosewater as textbooks. Further, they ordered that Catch 22, along with Vonnegut’s Cat’s Cradle, be removed from the school library.
Banning a book from the school library isn't even close to employee conduct issues.


Look for a case where the employer is denying the speech of an employee and post a link or someone else is going to have to for you. I don't want to do your homework.
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Old 21st July 2019, 04:02 PM   #474
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
This post was not easily accessible to the general public. I assume that a Friend or Friend of a Friend leaked the post.

That's private enough not to worry that he was likely to encourage violence, at least before this story.
This is a no brainer, phi. No Reasonable Expectation of Privacy on Facebook, Judge Says

Quote:
Honestly, the proximate cause for his outburst isn't Trump's comments, by the way. It was a (literally) fake news story about AOC claiming soldiers are overpaid. ...
Why does that matter?

It's inciting violence that is the issue.
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Old 21st July 2019, 04:04 PM   #475
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
This is a comment on a private Facebook page and I tend to think it was hyperbole. It was grossly inappropriate. In the same circumstance, assuming that I believed that it was not a literal call to kill my loved one, my opinion ought to be the same.

Fallible human nature being what it is, I may well take greater offense than I do now. But that is simply a matter of emotions running higher when loved ones are involved.

The cop should be disciplined, presuming that there is no First Amendment issue involved. But at present, I doubt this was a serious threat. We should treat it seriously, but not exaggerate the offense. (Were this a public statement, I'd take it as considerably more threatening, since even if the cop didn't intend to provoke an attack, he would have been making one significantly more likely.)
No, this person does not belong in the force. Do these people go through psychological screening? These attitudes would be something you would want to prevent entering and to purge. The bar of standards everywhere in America seems to have been dropped in the muck. The American public deserves better from those who govern and police them.
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Old 21st July 2019, 04:19 PM   #476
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why do you think it's more dangerous? So far, we've had violence against CBP. We haven't had violence against the squad.

Its possible that Trump could inspire violence with what he said, and it's also possible that AOC could inspire further violence with hers. But we're dealing with the statistics of small numbers here. We can't get reliable statistics. And any analysis based on some principles of how speech affects actions is going to be subject to the biases of whoever is doing that analysis.

And at some point, we have to accept that crazy people are dangerous, and can be inspired to violence by just about anything. The Giffords shooter was motivated be the belief that grammar was a government mind control plot, although Palin was unfairly blamed for it. Absent actual calls for violence, we have to allow criticism, even when it's over the top of inflammatory. We can't clamp down of criticism because of hypothetical violence. It won't work, and it won't be applied fairly. There's room to criticize what Trump said without having to appeal to this hypothetical threat.
Just because you are ignorant doesn't mean the rest of us are ignorant, too.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...an/3379387002/

Quote:
'I’ll put a bullet in her': Trump supporter charged with threatening to kill Rep. Ilhan Omar
I would recommend fact checking before posting, bro. LMFAO!!
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Old 21st July 2019, 04:20 PM   #477
Cavemonster
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Would it have killed you to post a link?

https://www.acluohio.org/archives/ca...chool-district
Banning a book from the school library isn't even close to employee conduct issues.


Look for a case where the employer is denying the speech of an employee and post a link or someone else is going to have to for you. I don't want to do your homework.
One of us must have misread the other.

I interpreted your post that I was responding to as a claim that the first amendment does not apply to entities other than congress (or the equivalent) and actions other than making laws.

Here's the quote from you again:
Quote:
I'm not sure a police department policy about conduct fits the definition of a law. Nor is a police department the equivalent of Congress.
My example and many many others show the first amendment applies to many policies that are not laws and many entities that are not congress.

I'll say again, that I agree that this police conduct policy is not a first amendment issue. I am not arguing against your conclusion. I am pointing out what looks like a mistake in your reasoning to support it.
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Old 21st July 2019, 04:38 PM   #478
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Just because you are ignorant doesn't mean the rest of us are ignorant, too.



https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...an/3379387002/







I would recommend fact checking before posting, bro. LMFAO!!
No violence.

Try again.

Lmfso, rofk, etx, etx, etx durr
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Old 21st July 2019, 04:44 PM   #479
Cabbage
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
No violence.

Try again.

Lmfso, rofk, etx, etx, etx durr
Wrong.

Hell, it's already been established in this very thread that....Death Threats are Violence.

Duh!

LOL!

Quote:
18 U.S. Code § 16. Crime of violence defined

The term “crime of violence” means—
(a) an offense that has as an element the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against the person or prop*erty of another, or
(b) any other offense that is a felony and that, by its nature, involves a substantial risk that physical force against the person or property of another may be used in the course of committing the offense.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/16


Fact Check is your friend, bro. LOL!
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Old 21st July 2019, 04:59 PM   #480
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Can anybody explain how conservatives can call people antisemites while having a much higher bar for calling someone a racist?
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