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Tags donald trump , Ilhan Omar , immigration issues , racism incidents , racism issues , Trump controversies

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Old 19th July 2019, 10:29 AM   #241
Delphic Oracle
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Diamond and Silk are hosted on FoxNation streaming service. They are very pro-Trump. They've testified before Congress about social media censorship of conservatives.

Steve King has a "Diamond and Silk Act" to abolish sanctuary cities. When asked about King retweeting white supremacist content, the reply was, "I’m tired of you all playing the race card."

ETA: Their twitter feed is a series of whataboutisms...

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 19th July 2019 at 10:33 AM.
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Old 19th July 2019, 10:42 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Let's cut to the chase.
Sorry that option is not available during the Fractal Shuffletm jabba inc..
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Old 19th July 2019, 10:43 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And how was he racist? By being uncivil.

It doesn't matter if someone sits there thinking racist thoughts in their heads but doing nothing. What matters is actions. And the action in question was just incivility. The alleged motive is racism, but why would the motive even matter if the action itself weren't a problem?



These are not separate categories, they are overlapping ones, obviously. Lynching is racism, but it's also violence, not incivility. Saying the n-word is racism and uncivil. Other forms of incivility may not be racist. For the purposes of this sub-discussion, it doesn't matter if Trump was also racist, it was still incivility. It wasn't violence, for example.

So complaints about what Trump said are still just complaints about incivility, whether or not the motive behind that incivility is racism, and whether or not your motive for complaining about that incivility is because of racism.

And because you'll likely misunderstand this if I don't make it explicit, note that I'm not even saying it's wrong to complain about incivility. I'm not even claiming that it's wrong to have a special interest in racist incivility in particular. But the claim was made, and not by me, that if you're arguing about incivility then you've conceded the "actual case", whatever that may be. I'm merely pointing out the implication of such a position. Feel free to not agree about incivility being irrelevant.
This pretzel logic justification of your claim that this discussion is really just about Trump's "incivility" literally made me face palm.
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Old 19th July 2019, 11:03 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And how was he racist? By being uncivil.

It doesn't matter if someone sits there thinking racist thoughts in their heads but doing nothing. What matters is actions. And the action in question was just incivility. The alleged motive is racism, but why would the motive even matter if the action itself weren't a problem?


However, inciting your supporters with racist statements is damaging and does threaten violence.
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Old 19th July 2019, 11:19 AM   #245
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Hannity Offers Most Ridiculous Defense of 'Send Her Back' Chant Yet

Originally Posted by the link above
“I don’t think they were saying ‘send her back’ as much as they’re saying ‘these views are repugnant,’” Hannity insisted during a segment on Omar, as the furor over the president’s ongoing racist attacks on her and the other members of the progressive Squad of House freshmen continues unabated.
Again, racism isn't racism if you break it into its component parts and ignore racist components, amirite?
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Old 19th July 2019, 11:20 AM   #246
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Because the human brain can comprehend the shift in what is permissive when dozens of cameras sending the behavior to millions of people watching results in no observable harm and perhaps even accrue some benefit to the person who performed the behavior.

Now layer on the social dynamics of what wealth and power the people engaging in the behavior have attached to themselves.

But yeah, there's an unsettling wrinkle in the inexplicable need to laboriously peel the onion back this far.
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Old 19th July 2019, 11:21 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Diamond and Silk are hosted on FoxNation streaming service. They are very pro-Trump. They've testified before Congress about social media censorship of conservatives.

Steve King has a "Diamond and Silk Act" to abolish sanctuary cities. When asked about King retweeting white supremacist content, the reply was, "I’m tired of you all playing the race card."

ETA: Their twitter feed is a series of whataboutisms...
I don't think whataboutism is their role in the Trump World.
It seems to me that
a. they are supposed to to show that Trump has Black supporters
and
b. that African Amercians are kind of stupid

I really hope that the two are just playing an act, in which case I hope they cash in big time.
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Old 19th July 2019, 11:21 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Next, Trump will call a black person the N-word, and his apologists will tell us that it's not racist if a white person has at some point been called the N-word.
No, when he does finally use the n-word, they will use the old trope of "why isn't it racist when black people use the word" to excuse it / confuse the issue. Fox news probably already has a bunch of clips of scary looking rappers saying it lined up and ready to go. Guarantee it.
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Old 19th July 2019, 11:24 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Hannity Offers Most Ridiculous Defense of 'Send Her Back' Chant Yet


Quote:
“I don’t think they were saying ‘send her back’ as much as they’re saying ‘these views are repugnant,’”
Really amazing how denial of plain reality has taken off since 2016.

I mean, it's one thing to say someone misspoke, but in this instance?
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Old 19th July 2019, 11:24 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
Here is the frustrating thing for me. Trump, again, is being evil, uncivil, outrageous. Another thing to add to the list of his 'most-vile'.

And, what will come of it? Nothing. It will just add to the list of disgusting comments. Next week, or today, he will open his mouth and his twitter again to another inappropriate comment. And then, another. But nothing will really change.
Things will change, just for the worse. Words precede actions.

For another example, look at the words around Iran. If they launched an attack on Iran back in 2017, even a lot of Republicans would have trouble supporting it. But notice the ramped up rhetoric, which I predict will continue.

These terrible policies need ideological support from their base. And regardless of how much they seem like blind followers, they need to be stoked. And the part of the GOP who weren't always in the deplorable basket need to be dragged along.

I'm not saying Trump is actually going to try to deport those congresswomen, (we're a little too early in the downward slide for that) but the idea that citizenship is revokable for enemies of the President is an idea that they're selling. Ending birthright citizenship is an explicit goal. The message is that not everyone who is legally a citizen really belongs here and there will be policy consequences as that idea gains volume.
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Old 19th July 2019, 11:28 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
The same people as last time, the stupid dumb ***** in the rust belt states.
You know, getting a form of proportional representation in USA would make a lot of problems disappear.
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Old 19th July 2019, 11:33 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
You know, getting a form of proportional representation in USA would make a lot of problems disappear.
It would create others, but it's debatable whether it would be worse.
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Old 19th July 2019, 11:39 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Because you haven't paid attention.
I was offering MrsB 1-10 that you'd say something like that. She didn't have a clue what I was talking about but bet 10 anyway and took a Euro from me.

You have become a parody of yourself.
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Old 19th July 2019, 11:45 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
You know, getting a form of proportional representation in USA would make a lot of problems disappear.
The US has two forms of proportional representation, though.
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Old 19th July 2019, 11:48 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Hannity Offers Most Ridiculous Defense of 'Send Her Back' Chant Yet



Again, racism isn't racism if you break it into its component parts and ignore racist components, amirite?
Send: A message. So what?
Her: Mothers, sisters, and daughters.
Back: America, built on the backs of every day hard working, loyal Americans, not the monsters who side with Al Queda
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Old 19th July 2019, 11:57 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The US has two forms of proportional representation, though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propor...representation

The US doesn't have it for the electoral college or the Senate. It doesn't have it for congress either, although it is less disproportionate.
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Old 19th July 2019, 12:14 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propor...representation



The US doesn't have it for the electoral college or the Senate. It doesn't have it for congress either, although it is less disproportionate.
The electoral college is proportional.

And I would argue that the senate is proportional as well, but by a different metric than central-government parliamentarians are used to.
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Old 19th July 2019, 12:21 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The electoral college is proportional.

And I would argue that the senate is proportional as well, but by a different metric than central-government parliamentarians are used to.
Proportional with very large error bars, maybe, but not in any meaningful sense.
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Old 19th July 2019, 12:27 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The electoral college is proportional.

And I would argue that the senate is proportional as well, but by a different metric than central-government parliamentarians are used to.
Oh, I thought the senate was two seats from each state.

I also thought that Wyoming had about 600k populaiton but three electoral college votes, whilst California had about 67 times the population, but only 55 electoral college votes?

I also thought that citizens of Washington DC had no senate or Congress representatives with voting powers?

ETA: For comparison, the UK parliamentary system is generally considered to not be proportional although it has a boundary commission redrawing the constituency boundaries to try and even out the number of voters per MP.
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Old 19th July 2019, 12:28 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Surely you have heard about it. I find it so disturbing I don't even want to link to youtube videos of it. Trump decided to go after Congresswoman Ilhan Omar and his crowd, ever lowering themselves to new levels of deplorable, started chanting "Send her back! SEND HER BACK!..."


And here we now are. They want to deport legal immigrants. Because it was never about immigrants being legal or illegal. It was about them being immigrants that are not white.


How is the Republican party going to spin this? Or do they even try? Maybe they just double down on this, clearly that is where the party is headed, and just burn some crosses at the next rally.
If you express hatred for the United States and you are an immigrant legal or not the response is acceptable. Go back to where you came from. If you were born and raised here and express hatred for the United States then find somewhere else to live.
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Old 19th July 2019, 12:29 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Quote:
Diamond and Silk are hosted on FoxNation streaming service. They are very pro-Trump.
I don't think whataboutism is their role in the Trump World.
It seems to me that
a. they are supposed to to show that Trump has Black supporters
and
b. that African Amercians are kind of stupid

I really hope that the two are just playing an act, in which case I hope they cash in big time.
Why would you hope that?

They have thrown their 'support' (even if its an act) to someone who is: 1) a racist/bigot, 2) a con-artist, 3) harming many US citizens by attacking Obamacare, increasing taxes on lower classes, and relaxing pollution controls. Why would you hope that they would get rewarded for that, even if they weren't true believers?

Its like saying "I hope IBM cashed in big time over their collaboration with Nazi Germany".
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Old 19th July 2019, 12:32 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
He is paying attention. He’s just trolling you. It’s a more subtle form of Bob-ing.

Don’t feed the troll.
When someone claims a person cares about a subject when that person merely pointed out it wasn't relevant, (post #154) it confirms your observation.
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Old 19th July 2019, 12:32 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
If you express hatred for the United States and you are an immigrant legal or not the response is acceptable. Go back to where you came from. If you were born and raised here and express hatred for the United States then find somewhere else to live.
The individuals in question never expressed hatred for the United states. They expressed hatred/contempt for the current sitting president of the United states. Which of course is not the same thing. There is no requirement that all residents must express loyalty to the president.
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Old 19th July 2019, 12:33 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I don't think whataboutism is their role in the Trump World.
It seems to me that
a. they are supposed to to show that Trump has Black supporters
and
b. that African Amercians are kind of stupid

I really hope that the two are just playing an act, in which case I hope they cash in big time.
It's like a lot of things in orbit of Trump, it plays on our rubbernecker driving past the car crash tendencies.
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Old 19th July 2019, 12:37 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propor...representation

The US doesn't have it for the electoral college or the Senate. It doesn't have it for congress either, although it is less disproportionate.
If you look at statewide votes cast for Congressional candidates vs. the proportions sent by party, some divergences are just stupefying. Yay, dems locked into 3 or 4 districts sending up 80+% blowouts and a whole swathe of red skating by at 55% with a few strongholds posting up to 60% or so.
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Old 19th July 2019, 12:39 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
The individuals in question never expressed hatred for the United states. They expressed hatred/contempt for the current sitting president of the United states. Which of course is not the same thing. There is no requirement that all residents must express loyalty to the president.
Moreover, "love it or leave it" is a false dichotomy. For example, there is a third option: work to change it. Among the ways to do that is to become part of the government, where you gave the direct ability to affect change.

Just a reminder, we are talking about a duly elected member of congress.
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Old 19th July 2019, 12:42 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I also thought that citizens of Washington DC had no senate or Congress representatives with voting powers?
DC, and the various territories have "Shadow Congresspeople" which can show up, debate, talk, argue their points but can't vote on anything which is either the best job in the world or the worst job depending on how you look at it.
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Old 19th July 2019, 12:44 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
The individuals in question never expressed hatred for the United states. They expressed hatred/contempt for the current sitting president of the United states. Which of course is not the same thing. There is no requirement that all residents must express loyalty to the president.
Whenever I hear this "you don't respect the office of President " it makes me think of Captain Kirk in Trouble with Tribbles. To paraphrase

"I have a lot of respect for the office of the President. It's the person doing the job that I don't respect."

I would argue it's because of my "respect for the office of the President" that I have no respect for the idiot in it. If you have any respect for the office, how can you accept a fool doing it?
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Old 19th July 2019, 12:47 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Holy cow. Is that the incident Zig is yammering on about?

"Go home" in that situation meant "return to your country of origin"?

That's just pathetic.
The incident I just looked at, Gorka tells the reporter to go home and the reporter tells Gorka to get a job.

If someone wants to find a different version, that's fine but I think this is straying off topic.
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Old 19th July 2019, 12:49 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Just a reminder, we are talking about a duly elected member of congress.
Who actually won the popular vote for their election.
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Old 19th July 2019, 12:56 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Who actually won the popular vote for their election.
That, too
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Old 19th July 2019, 12:57 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The electoral college is proportional.

And I would argue that the senate is proportional as well, but by a different metric than central-government parliamentarians are used to.
No it isn't

Wyoming is represented by 2% of the Senate but it has 0.18% of the US population
Pop 578,000
2 Senators
289,000 per Senator

Alabama is represented by 2% of the Senate but it has 1.5% of the US population
Pop 4,900,000
2 Senators
2,450,000 per Senator

California is represented by 2% of the Senate but it has 12% of the US population
Population 39,600,000
2 Senators
19,800,000 per Senator

The Senate is not proportional by any stretch. It is very badly skewed because of disproportionate representation and gerrymandering.
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Old 19th July 2019, 01:00 PM   #273
Minoosh
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
The individuals in question never expressed hatred for the United states. They expressed hatred/contempt for the current sitting president of the United states. Which of course is not the same thing. There is no requirement that all residents must express loyalty to the president.
And also, criticism = hatred, don't you know.
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Old 19th July 2019, 01:03 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The electoral college is proportional.

And I would argue that the senate is proportional as well, but by a different metric than central-government parliamentarians are used to.
Not by any commonly accepted use of the term, and *certainly* not in the sense that The Atheist was using it, which was the conventional way.

Successful derail, though.
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Old 19th July 2019, 01:26 PM   #275
theprestige
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
No it isn't

Wyoming is represented by 2% of the Senate but it has 0.18% of the US population
Pop 578,000
2 Senators
289,000 per Senator

Alabama is represented by 2% of the Senate but it has 1.5% of the US population
Pop 4,900,000
2 Senators
2,450,000 per Senator

California is represented by 2% of the Senate but it has 12% of the US population
Population 39,600,000
2 Senators
19,800,000 per Senator

The Senate is not proportional by any stretch. It is very badly skewed because of disproportionate representation and gerrymandering.
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Not by any commonly accepted use of the term, and *certainly* not in the sense that The Atheist was using it, which was the conventional way.

Successful derail, though.
Good points. I was considering an argument that the representation of the Senate is proportional to the statehood of the states, but you're right that this is not a good way to look at it.

It's more accurate to think of the Senate as anti-proportional. Which is relevant and appropriate to the US system of government, but you're right that it's not proportional.

Also, it's kind of silly to complain about a derail in a sidebar you're actively contributing to, but if you insist you should probably blame The Atheist, who actually started the sidebar.

Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Oh, I thought the senate was two seats from each state.

I also thought that Wyoming had about 600k populaiton but three electoral college votes, whilst California had about 67 times the population, but only 55 electoral college votes?

I also thought that citizens of Washington DC had no senate or Congress representatives with voting powers?

ETA: For comparison, the UK parliamentary system is generally considered to not be proportional although it has a boundary commission redrawing the constituency boundaries to try and even out the number of voters per MP.
This, on the other hand, is entirely silly.
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Old 19th July 2019, 01:29 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
ETA: For comparison, the UK parliamentary system is generally considered to not be proportional although it has a boundary commission redrawing the constituency boundaries to try and even out the number of voters per MP.
And this is the essential difference between your and our electoral commissions, and the US equivalents, which are mostly the State Legislatures and Commissions. Only one state (Iowa) has Non-partisan staff develop the maps, but then they are voted on by the State Legislature anyway. Some states don't have commissions as the whole state is one district - Alaska, Montana, Wyoming, the Dakotas, Vermont, Delaware and DC.

Here, and in the UK, the Electoral Commission operate in the blind as to who the voters are and who they vote for. They only have population figures, and have no information on the demographic makeup of those populations. As a result, they must base their boundary settings and adjustment purely on the numbers.

In the US, the system is corrupt. You have partisan hacks drawing boundaries, using demographic and vote preference information to arrange their voting districts in such a way that "the other party" voters are lumped together in huge majorities in a small number of districts, while "our party voters" are all spread out in small majorities in a large number of districts. The end result is that one party might get, say, 40% of the votes, but 60% of the seats.

And it ain't just Republicans who do this, Democrats do it too.
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Old 19th July 2019, 01:47 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Because the human brain can comprehend the shift in what is permissive when dozens of cameras sending the behavior to millions of people watching results in no observable harm and perhaps even accrue some benefit to the person who performed the behavior.

Now layer on the social dynamics of what wealth and power the people engaging in the behavior have attached to themselves.

But yeah, there's an unsettling wrinkle in the inexplicable need to laboriously peel the onion back this far.
In addition to this, target key people like Omar (she's the easiest because she looks the most other) and start tagging her with key words or claims. Repeat them over and over.
Omar said bad words
Omar hates this country
Corrupt
Commie
Israel hater
Muslim
Pals around with terrorists

Bloomberg OpEd:
Quote:
After all, the hosts at Fox and Friends contributed on Sunday by just having a few laughs about the president’s tweets. Meanwhile, Matt Wolking, the self-described “Deputy Director of Communications - Rapid Response” for the president’s 2020 campaign, did his part by responding so rapidly to the widespread criticism that he simply pretended the media misrepresented what Trump tweeted. And by my count only one Republican legislator criticized Trump all day. Representative Chip Roy of Texas crossed lines to offer what was ultimately a tepid critique of Trump’s Twitter storm. Other than Roy, crickets.
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Old 19th July 2019, 01:50 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It would create others, but it's debatable whether it would be worse.
Might be worse for fear mongering conservatives that believe their own fear mongering.

But for the rest of us, sanity would return.
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Old 19th July 2019, 01:52 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The US has two forms of proportional representation, though.
We all know what he meant. And everyone here knows the point you are trying to make. Go argue the EC and Senate seats in the thread it belongs in.
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Old 19th July 2019, 02:06 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
No it isn't

Wyoming is represented by 2% of the Senate but it has 0.18% of the US population
Pop 578,000
2 Senators
289,000 per Senator

Alabama is represented by 2% of the Senate but it has 1.5% of the US population
Pop 4,900,000
2 Senators
2,450,000 per Senator

California is represented by 2% of the Senate but it has 12% of the US population
Population 39,600,000
2 Senators
19,800,000 per Senator

The Senate is not proportional by any stretch. It is very badly skewed because of disproportionate representation and gerrymandering.
The whole idea of each state having two senators was to prevent the big states from being able to trample over the small states.
Also how the hell does gerrymandering impact a senate election? I think you are confusing it with the House of Representatives where Gerrymandering congressional districts does have a negative impact. But not Senate elections where districts are irrevelent.
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