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Tags donald trump , Ilhan Omar , immigration issues , racism incidents , racism issues , Trump controversies

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Old 19th July 2019, 02:29 PM   #281
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The whole idea of each state having two senators was to prevent the big states from being able to trample over the small states.
The idea was to get the small states to ratify the Constitution by tacking on part of the New Jersey Plan to the Virginia Plan, and people realized the problems even back then.

Quote:
Such an equality will enable the minority to controul in all cases whatsoever, the sentiments and interests of the majority. Seven States will controul six: Seven States, according to the estimates that had been used, composed 24/90 . of the whole people. It would be in the power then of less than 1/3 to overrule 2/3 whenever a question should happen to divide the States in that manner. Can we forget for whom we are forming a Government? Is it for men, or for the imaginary beings called States? Will our honest Constituents be satisfied with metaphysical distinctions? Will they, ought they to be satisfied with being told that the one third compose the greater number of States?
Linky.

It's practical for forming a federal government from existing states, but it is still undemocratic and setting up for conflict in the long-term.
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Old 19th July 2019, 02:32 PM   #282
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I wish a reporter would challenge Trump when he states that Omar has expressed hatred for the US by asking him exactly what she said. And when the Orange Baboon lies, and you know he will, call him on it.
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Old 19th July 2019, 02:44 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The electoral college is proportional.

And I would argue that the senate is proportional as well, but by a different metric than central-government parliamentarians are used to.
Quote:
Proportional representation (PR) characterizes electoral systems in which divisions in an electorate are reflected proportionately in the elected body.[1] If n% of the electorate support a particular political party as their favorite, then roughly n% of seats will be won by that party.[2] The essence of such systems is that all votes contribute to the resultónot just a plurality, or a bare majority. The most prevalent forms of proportional representation all require the use of multiple-member voting districts (also called super-districts), as it is not possible to fill a single seat in a proportional manner. In fact, the implementations of PR that achieve the highest levels of proportionality tend to include districts with large numbers of seats.[3]

The most widely used families of PR electoral systems are party list PR, the single transferable vote (STV), and mixed member proportional representation (MMP).[4]
The wiki link.

- The US should do X.
- The US does X, if I define X to mean !X.
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Old 19th July 2019, 02:55 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
The wiki link.

- The US should do X.
- The US does X, if I define X to mean !X.
And once again we find my copulatory reserves depleted. Feel free to return to your regularly scheduled thread already in progress.
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Old 19th July 2019, 02:58 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
It doesn't matter to you.
It shouldn't matter to anyone. Thought crimes are the stuff of totalitarian dystopias. If your thoughts cannot be held privately, without recrimination, then you are not merely a slave, you are damned.
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Old 19th July 2019, 03:00 PM   #286
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Broadcasting your thoughts to the planet via the internet is not keeping them private.
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Old 19th July 2019, 03:01 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
However, inciting your supporters with racist statements is damaging and does threaten violence.
And that's a good argument for why civility matters. But that's rather my point, actually: The Great Zaganza was wrong to say that calls for civility are bogus.
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Old 19th July 2019, 03:11 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
We all know what he meant. And everyone here knows the point you are trying to make. Go argue the EC and Senate seats in the thread it belongs in.
Already addressed.
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Old 19th July 2019, 03:30 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It shouldn't matter to anyone. Thought crimes are the stuff of totalitarian dystopias. If your thoughts cannot be held privately, without recrimination, then you are not merely a slave, you are damned.
What, like accusing people of hating America when they have never said as much?
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Old 19th July 2019, 04:18 PM   #290
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Fact is the hardline ideologues on both sides would love to surpress the opinions of those who oppose them.
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Old 19th July 2019, 05:17 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It shouldn't matter to anyone. Thought crimes are the stuff of totalitarian dystopias. If your thoughts cannot be held privately, without recrimination, then you are not merely a slave, you are damned.
In order to not be concerned about the president's racist mind, I would need to accept the proposition that actions are not informed by beliefs. This would obviously be extremely stupid, so you're on your own.
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Old 19th July 2019, 06:59 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
that must be fake
No. He's quoting Diamond & Silk and they are just that stupid to think this grade school argument is effective.
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Old 19th July 2019, 09:45 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Fact is the hardline ideologues on both sides would love to surpress the opinions of those who oppose them.
I had to re-read this due to the lack of a comma. I was initially trying to grok how a hardline could be "fact".

Should read:

"Fact is, the hardline ideologues..."
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Old 19th July 2019, 10:10 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
- "You murdered him!"
- "And how did I murder him? By punching him. You're condeming me to life in prison for punching a man!"
Thatís not at all whatís going on here at all. The closer equivalent would be The Great Zaganza claiming that we donít need to worry about punching, we only need to worry about murder. And Iím saying no, we should still worry about punching.

But itís still a stupid analogy since punching is a method and murder is a result, whereas incivility is a method but racism is a motive. Analogies are lazy ways to make arguments that canít actually stand on their own.
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Old 19th July 2019, 10:24 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Thatís not at all whatís going on here at all. The closer equivalent would be The Great Zaganza claiming that we donít need to worry about punching, we only need to worry about murder. And Iím saying no, we should still worry about punching.

But itís still a stupid analogy since punching is a method and murder is a result, whereas incivility is a method but racism is a motive. Analogies are lazy ways to make arguments that canít actually stand on their own.
I don't agree with your potrayal of my point.
Furthermore, it makes no sense to distinguish in an elected official between his actions and motives unless they have given compelling reason to do so. Racism is NOT a thought crime. Neither is it being uncivil.
Whether something is uncivil depends on the society.
Whether something is racist does not.
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Old 20th July 2019, 01:36 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And that's a good argument for why civility matters. But that's rather my point, actually: The Great Zaganza was wrong to say that calls for civility are bogus.
There is a difference between incivility and inciting racial hatred.

It's not very polite to call Trump a sexual predator, but he's previously claimed to have sexually assaulted women.
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Old 20th July 2019, 01:44 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And once again we find my copulatory reserves depleted. Feel free to return to your regularly scheduled thread already in progress.
You did this over in the Tommy Robinson Thread.

Made a statement that you later accepted was untenable but acted snarky, and ironically given some of your other posts, in an uncivil manner, when people point that out to you.
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Old 20th July 2019, 02:22 AM   #298
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The problem isn't incivility. Trump, and many other politicians, have been uncivil many times. You can make an argument that it's demeaning to the office of president, and/or that politics would be better if people remained polite, but that's not what's happening here.

What's happening here is that the most powerful man in the United States is using his platform to tell racist lies about political opponents in order to stir up hated of them and whip adoring crowds into a frenzy - all in an age when more than 1 terrorist has cited Trump as the impetus behind their actions or their intended actions.
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Old 20th July 2019, 02:42 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
The problem isn't incivility. Trump, and many other politicians, have been uncivil many times. You can make an argument that it's demeaning to the office of president, and/or that politics would be better if people remained polite, but that's not what's happening here.

What's happening here is that the most powerful man in the United States is using his platform to tell racist lies about political opponents in order to stir up hated of them and whip adoring crowds into a frenzy - all in an age when more than 1 terrorist has cited Trump as the impetus behind their actions or their intended actions.
Bingo
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Old 20th July 2019, 02:42 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Might be worse for fear mongering conservatives that believe their own fear mongering.

But for the rest of us, sanity would return.
I'm sure rural Americans having essentially no representation on the Federal level would be quite ok for you, but not for them. You do understand that this is what the Senate and EC were supposed to address, correct?
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Old 20th July 2019, 02:43 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Fact is the hardline ideologues on both sides would love to surpress the opinions of those who oppose them.
Absolutely. Both love to shout "fascist!" at the other but at the slightest opportunity, they'll prove that said other is right.
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Old 20th July 2019, 02:45 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Thatís not at all whatís going on here at all. The closer equivalent would be The Great Zaganza claiming that we donít need to worry about punching, we only need to worry about murder. And Iím saying no, we should still worry about punching.

But itís still a stupid analogy since punching is a method and murder is a result, whereas incivility is a method but racism is a motive. Analogies are lazy ways to make arguments that canít actually stand on their own.
I think you might be over-analysing the analogy, Zig, and missing the point in the process.
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Old 20th July 2019, 03:02 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I wish a reporter would challenge Trump when he states that Omar has expressed hatred for the US by asking him exactly what she said. And when the Orange Baboon lies, and you know he will, call him on it.
And then what? There doesn't seem to be any Trump lies that his supporters aren't willing to either defend or ignore.
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Old 20th July 2019, 03:15 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And how was he racist? By being uncivil.

It doesn't matter if someone sits there thinking racist thoughts in their heads but doing nothing. What matters is actions. And the action in question was just incivility. The alleged motive is racism, but why would the motive even matter if the action itself weren't a problem?
No, it wasn't "just incivility"; your turd-polishing skills have failed you. The "action in question" is race-baiting demagoguery promoted by a fountain of lies and ********, aimed squarely at the prejudices, fears, resentments, and gullibility of "half" of his base, in hopes of stirring up enough hatred to win another election for "Your Favorite President."

(ETA: In other words, what Squeegee said. )

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Old 20th July 2019, 04:02 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
No, it wasn't "just incivility"; your turd-polishing skills have failed you. The "action in question" is race-baiting demagoguery promoted by a fountain of lies and ********, aimed squarely at the prejudices, fears, resentments, and gullibility of "half" of his base, in hopes of stirring up enough hatred to win another election for "Your Favorite President."

(ETA: In other words, what Squeegee said. )
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
The problem isn't incivility. Trump, and many other politicians, have been uncivil many times. You can make an argument that it's demeaning to the office of president, and/or that politics would be better if people remained polite, but that's not what's happening here.

What's happening here is that the most powerful man in the United States is using his platform to tell racist lies about political opponents in order to stir up hated of them and whip adoring crowds into a frenzy - all in an age when more than 1 terrorist has cited Trump as the impetus behind their actions or their intended actions.
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Old 20th July 2019, 04:05 AM   #306
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Trump Tweets

As you can see, I did nothing to lead people on, nor was I particularly happy with their chant. Just a very big and patriotic crowd. They love the USA!

https://twitter.com/i/status/1151738558501330945
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Old 20th July 2019, 04:08 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

As you can see, I did nothing to lead people on, nor was I particularly happy with their chant. Just a very big and patriotic crowd. They love the USA!

https://twitter.com/i/status/1151738558501330945
Did you add that link or was it part of the original?
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Old 20th July 2019, 04:29 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

As you can see, I did nothing to lead people on, nor was I particularly happy with their chant. Just a very big and patriotic crowd. They love the USA!

https://twitter.com/i/status/1151738558501330945
So first he supported them, then says he tried to stop them, now he wants to have it both ways. Classy.

Even his cultists must feel the slightest bit of betrayal when he said he disagreed with them, and tried to stop them chanting?
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Old 20th July 2019, 05:11 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Did you add that link or was it part of the original?
Part of the original, he was commenting on it.
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Old 20th July 2019, 05:18 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Part of the original, he was commenting on it.
Those two twits are saying opposite things.
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Old 20th July 2019, 06:11 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
If you express hatred for the United States and you are an immigrant legal or not the response is acceptable. Go back to where you came from. If you were born and raised here and express hatred for the United States then find somewhere else to live.
I have a hook/line/sinker image for these situations. I'm afraid it won't suffice here, lacking the rod and reel.
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Old 20th July 2019, 06:17 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I think you might be over-analysing the analogy, Zig, and missing the point in the process.
Then make your point directly so it is comprehensible.
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Old 20th July 2019, 06:19 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
The problem isn't incivility. Trump, and many other politicians, have been uncivil many times. You can make an argument that it's demeaning to the office of president, and/or that politics would be better if people remained polite, but that's not what's happening here.

What's happening here is that the most powerful man in the United States is using his platform to tell racist lies about political opponents in order to stir up hated of them and whip adoring crowds into a frenzy - all in an age when more than 1 terrorist has cited Trump as the impetus behind their actions or their intended actions.
Given that AOCís own rhetoric just inspired actual terrorist violence, it seems a bit odd that youíre only complaining about potential violence inspired by Trump.
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Old 20th July 2019, 06:36 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Given that AOCís own rhetoric just inspired actual terrorist violence
Wow, that's wild. You should start another thread about it, where you actually back up your point rather than attempting to impotently distract from Trump's racism in this thread... again..
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Old 20th July 2019, 07:37 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Given that AOCís own rhetoric just inspired actual terrorist violence, it seems a bit odd that youíre only complaining about potential violence inspired by Trump.
Leaving aside the "Look! A squirrel!" of your post, I've not heard of a terrorist citing Ocasio-Cortez as the inspiration for their actions, and googling turns up nothing. Can you provide a citation, please?

But, yes, if Ocasio-Cortez has incited hatred with her speech and that hatred has incited people to violence I will condemn her for it in the strongest terms. Why wouldn't I?
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Old 20th July 2019, 07:38 AM   #316
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If it makes you feel any better, those Trump supporters don't just hate blacks, Muslims, and Hispanics. They also hate anyone not their flavor of Christian, Childless Europeans, women who don't know their place, and, if they were being honest, Jews.
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Old 20th July 2019, 07:57 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
What, like accusing people of hating America when they have never said as much?

Trump considers anyone who criticizes him to be his enemy.
They criticized Trump.
This makes them Trump's enemies.
Trump IS America.
This makes them enemies of America.
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Old 20th July 2019, 08:10 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Then make your point directly so it is comprehensible.
Ok. The invivility is completely irrelevant to the accusation of racism.
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Old 20th July 2019, 08:11 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Given that AOCís own rhetoric just inspired actual terrorist violence
Ok stop.

Where?
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Old 20th July 2019, 08:19 AM   #320
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Trump said so, so it must be true.
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