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Tags Congressional hearings , donald trump , impeachment , Trump administration , Trump controversies

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Old 31st July 2019, 11:42 AM   #81
JoeMorgue
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People are getting blinded by the Nixon comparison.

This isn't the 1970s. Nixon's approval dropped like a rock when what he did got out into public eye.

Everybody already knows what Trump has done. "Oh yeah well you can't prove it!" is a radically different standard.
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Old 31st July 2019, 11:59 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
People are getting blinded by the Nixon comparison.

This isn't the 1970s. Nixon's approval dropped like a rock when what he did got out into public eye.

Everybody already knows what Trump has done. "Oh yeah well you can't prove it!" is a radically different standard.
So, what? **** it? I mean, what is the logical point in saying this?

It's like you're trying to teach the polar opposite of everything that was taught when we were younger. "If you see something, report it." Well, we're all seeing it, and I just have no ******* clue for the life of me what your point is?

So, what? Like, what do you want?

ETA: Or is this like a "I don't want anything, I just want you to know that what you're doing is wrong, and you'll never achieve something worthwhile." I'm asking sincerely. I just don't know what the next direction would be then.
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Old 31st July 2019, 12:04 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
So, what? Like, what do you want?
Make political gains and then take on Trump. This ain't rocket science.

The part everyone keeps glossing over is that the Dems had a 56-42 majority in the Senate when Nixon was impeached (or well pulled his "You can't fire me I quit" for the pedants out there).

If the Republicans had had the majority, even if everything else was the same, Nixon would not have been impeached.

Clinton was impeached and not convicted because the Republicans held the House and the Dems held the Senate.

If Trump isn't President you can just like... arrest him and put him on trial If the Dems control the Senate you can Impeach. You can't do anything until one of those two things happens.
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Old 31st July 2019, 12:10 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Make political gains and then take on Trump. This ain't rocket science.
Great! I mean, if the Dems take the White House in the next election that's a pretty useless suggestion, but ok. How? When?

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The part everyone keeps glossing over is that the Dems had a 56-42 majority in the Senate when Nixon was impeached (or well pulled his "You can't fire me I quit" for the pedants out there).
His terrible **** started coming to light after the impeachment proceedings started. That's what brought a lot of America to face the stuff Nixon had done. You're saying here, "Yeah, but you have to make gains BEFORE you can bring that information to light or else it won't matter." I find that to be a bit circular.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If the Republicans had had the majority, even if everything else was the same, Nixon would not have been impeached.
You straight up have no way of knowing that.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Clinton was impeached and not convicted because the Republicans held the House and the Dems held the Senate.
Very well might be, but this situation isn't the same as those either. Sitting on your ******* thumbs while you wait to, hopefully, make some gains in the next election before you do everything in your power to bring every single crime committed by this administration to light is cowardice. That's just my opinion of course.
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Old 31st July 2019, 12:12 PM   #85
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It's not cowardice to wait for an actual victory we have an actual chance of getting instead of throwing everything away on a meaningless bit of feel good symbolism now because we need the ego boost.

Sitting on your hands doing nothing is what you are suggesting. You just want us to take our hands out and wave them around and pretend like we did something.

Impeaching Trump now will go nowhere and high odds will hand him 2020 on a silver platter. That means no touching Trump until 2022, 2024 at the earliest. Think of the damage he could do in that time. Think of how entrenched he could get. Think of how much he could stack the decks.

That's not what either of us want.
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Old 31st July 2019, 12:15 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's easy to have hearings. It's easy to proclaim "victory" according to some metric at the conclusion.
So easy, in fact, that both sides do it simultaneously on the same hearing.
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Old 31st July 2019, 12:17 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's not cowardice to wait for an actual victory we have an actual chance of getting instead of throwing everything away on a meaningless bit of feel good symbolism now because we need the ego boost.

Impeaching Trump now will go nowhere and high odds will hand him 2020 on a silver platter. That means no touching Trump until 2022, 2024 at the earliest. Think of the damage he could do in that time. Think of how entrenched he could get. Think of how much he could stack the decks.

That's not what either of us want.
I don't believe that's true.

It's not an ego boost to impeach a man that has blatantly committed crimes. That's an extremely ****** up to way of portraying it if you ask me. That's what I'm actually under the impression part of the House's job is, would be to oversee the President.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Sitting on your hands doing nothing is what you are suggesting. You just want us to take our hands out and wave them around and pretend like we did something.
No, I don't. Impeachment proceedings aren't "pretending like we did something". It's actually doing something. Maybe you should familiarize yourself with the options available when they move forward. It might help.

I'm not going to tell the government to back off taking on a criminal, and an ******* for no other reason than it's might, maybe, give him a slight advantage. Especially considering the myriad of ways Dem's could go into it. They could openly say it's not going to go anywhere but they want the public educated. As I stated before, the Mueller testimony got the "NO OBSTRUCTION" **** to quiet down from Trump and even made a few fox hosts confront Trump staff.
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Old 31st July 2019, 12:21 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
It's not an ego boost to impeach a man that has blatantly committed crimes.
It is when the impeachment has zero chance of leading to conviction.

Please, sell me on a scenario where our current Senate is going to vote to convict Trump. It would pretty much have to involve the Infinity Gauntlet at this point.

I don't need you to asterisk-scream a list of all the reasons Trump is bad at me. Trust me, I'm aware and I agree. I need you to understand that at this point in time all the people currently in a position to take him out of power do not agree with your or me and nothing being said on any level right now has a fly's fart in a hurricane of changing their mind. Trump and Putin could double team the average Republican's wife on top of the Constitution and they wouldn't vote against the leader of their tribe.

Outside of breaking out the guillotine the 2020 election is the only route we have. I can't make that not true.
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Old 31st July 2019, 12:26 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It is when the impeachment has zero chance of leading to conviction.

Please, sell me on a scenario where our current Senate is going to vote to convict Trump. It would pretty much have to involve the Infinity Gauntlet at this point.
I never said they would. Had you included my whole statement, I even gave a scenario where they could openly say they, also, know it won't succeed; however, in the name of being transparent with the public they are moving forward anyway.

They could, in the House, bring up absolutely every possible thing that Trump has done since getting in office. There is plenty we don't know that impeachment proceedings could make public. That could cause even a few Republicans, or Fox news cycles to be skeptical of Trump.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't need you to asterisk-scream a list of all the reasons Trump is bad at me. Trust me, I'm aware and I agree. I need to understand that the people currently in a position now to take him out of power do not agree with your or me.

Outside of breaking out the guillotine the 2020 election is the only route we have. I can't make that not true.
You also can't make it true. It's completely and entirely your conjecture. That doesn't make it factual, you're just pissing in the dark. Same as all of us. Nothing you've said here is based on any fact, it's not even based on history. It's just your random collection of conjecture that could easily be as much ******** as reality.

Also, for like the millionth time. Asterisks don't mean I'm mad, screaming, or yelling. I swear. I swear all of the time.
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Old 31st July 2019, 12:29 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post

They could, in the House, bring up absolutely every possible thing that Trump has done since getting in office. There is plenty we don't know that impeachment proceedings could make public. That could cause even a few Republicans, or Fox news cycles to be skeptical of Trump.


I think there is value in this, even though we know Republicans won't vote to convict.

It's an open secret that Trump and Co. are engaged in a variety of petty and major corruption. It's an administration of grifters, top to bottom, stealing everything that isn't nailed down. So far, they have been largely successful in stonewalling Congressional oversight by refusing to answer questions.

I could see a very public impeachment hearing being an effective piece of politics. Making these people answer questions under oath could be very powerful. Showing that the Republican party has no interest in dealing with open corruption could also be useful.
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Old 31st July 2019, 12:45 PM   #91
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Moving things from an "Open Secret" to just "Open" doesn't have the value to me it seems it does to other people. I just don't get the percentage in it. "Hey the thing everybody already knew they now... still know."

This whole "Well it we get all his dirty laundry out in the open" isn't going to work against who is proudly wearing his dirty laundry out to eat everyday. We've got to drop this "Okay the next horrible thing about Trump that gets put on the table is finally going to be the thing that erodes his base" that has been the party line since like 7 seconds after he got the election.

Most of the public doesn't want to go through an Impeachment right now. No Republican outside of one or two weird fringe cases in anything short of outright hostile to the idea. Hell barely half the Democrats are even onboard with it.

So from a legal/government perspective impeaching Trump would barely rise to the level of a Dog and Pony show and politically it's unpopular.

What are we winning or gaining in this scenario?
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Old 31st July 2019, 12:54 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
So easy, in fact, that both sides do it simultaneously on the same hearing.
Exactly. Which is why I don't hold out much hope for the "let's have more hearings and get more facts before the American people" strategy.

Also, of course, "facts".

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Old 31st July 2019, 01:04 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I think there is value in this, even though we know Republicans won't vote to convict.
My take as well. Quarterbacking is as effective on a Friday morning as on a Monday.

Possible outcomes if the House impeaches Trump (list not exhaustive, and this is assuming Senate acquittal in each case):
  1. We learn nothing else, partisanship deepens, more people buy into Trump's martyr narrative, and he skates to re-election with ~50% of popular vote.
  2. We learn nothing else, partisanship does not substantively change, Trump's 42% come out to vote, but so do the 2016 disaffected Obama voters+new voters+never Trumpsters and he's defeated by ~49% of the vote with narrow electoral victory for Democrats.
  3. We do learn new and damaging things about Trump & Co. (doesn't even have to be the alleged pee-pee tape), it becomes more obvious how cautious and restricted Mueller had been, Wall St. looks like it's going a bit pear-shaped, Trump's foaming-at-the-mouth support slips to ~39%, and the Democrats win in a landslide of ~57%. President Warren's first act upon her inauguration is to instruct Attorney General Kamala Harris to issue arrest warrants for Trump, Trump, Jr., Mrs. Trump (Ivanka), Kuschner, Miller, etc.

Fantasy editorial bits notwithstanding, I see #1 as the least likely outcome of impeachment hearings.
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Old 31st July 2019, 01:06 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
We don't even know what's going on with some of the other investigations. I think Mueller's being downplayed by the GOP and blown up by the Dem's.

It was good. Some decent soundbytes, Mueller confirmed that Trump wasn't innocent, and it actually got Trump to shut the **** up about it a little bit, I think.

That being said, I think the taxes will be just as damning, and hopefully more so. Mueller basically said that he didn't know if Trump and his idiots were smart enough to know they were breaking the law intentionally. Which, sadly, I kind of agree with. I think Trump was completely ignorant of how the law works up until he made his statement about taking help again and got his ass firmly handed to him from multiple people. Then he learned, 'Oh, I actually can't take information'. That caused him to backpedal.

When it comes to taxes I really and truly don't feel that defense will work. Sure, the Trump Tower meeting was sketchy, but you can feign ignorance. A few decades of tax fraud\evasion is not as easy to skate on. Those investigations also aren't being handled by the DOJ, they're being handled by the House.
Do you think anyone from the IRS will have to go to prison, when it turns out that they could have prevented a Trump presidency by actually doing their job and auditing an example of money laundering so obvious that any rando off the street could pick up on it if they just saw his tax returns?
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Old 31st July 2019, 01:09 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Fantasy editorial bits notwithstanding, I see #1 as the least likely outcome of impeachment hearings.
I see it as practically inevitable given the fact that a majority of... nobody wants impeachment. Not Republicans, not Democrats (especially their leadership), not the general public. Right now the only group in power talking about Impeachment are lame duck Democrats.

Like I keep having to say so I don't get branded the enemy and just have "BUT THE ORANGE MAN IS BAD! DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND BAD!" shouted at me, I hope I'm wrong. I'd like nothing else then to see Trump impeached and thrown in prison and for the entire Republican party to be damaged to the point it can't survive long term. I'll plop my "This is how much I hate Trump!" member down on the table and compare it to anyone's if that's what it takes.

But hope isn't a strategy.
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Old 31st July 2019, 01:09 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Moving things from an "Open Secret" to just "Open" doesn't have the value to me it seems it does to other people. I just don't get the percentage in it. "Hey the thing everybody already knew they now... still know."
There is a reason things are "read into the record". As stated before, impeachment can force people to speak under oath. That can be interpreted differently by the public.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This whole "Well it we get all his dirty laundry out in the open" isn't going to work against who is proudly wearing his dirty laundry out to eat everyday. We've got to drop this "Okay the next horrible thing about Trump that gets put on the table is finally going to be the thing that erodes his base" that has been the party line since like 7 seconds after he got the election.
I don't remember anyone here saying that anything Trump does would "erode his base". In fact, all I see here are people saying the exact opposite. That being said, Trump's base didn't win him the election. Fence sitters, and people that wanted to "give him a shot" (that and Russian interference) won him the election. The ability to show those people every single corrupt thing he's done, and force his people to speak about it under oath, can encourage those people to vote.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Most of the public doesn't want to go through an Impeachment right now. No Republican outside of one or two weird fringe cases in anything short of outright hostile to the idea. Hell barely half the Democrats are even onboard with it.
Did they want to go through it when Nixon was impeached? Forcing the Republican party to own the stuff Trump does, as they'd either have to defend him or start separating themselves from him, and the way he acts could cause more of a rift in the party. Again, testifying under oath and seeing that information would be potent.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So from a legal/government perspective impeaching Trump would barely rise to the level of a Dog and Pony show and politically it's unpopular.

What are we winning or gaining in this scenario?
I get it, to you, we're winning\gaining nothing. I don't know what we're winning\gaining by NOT doing it either. But hey, it is what it is.
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Old 31st July 2019, 01:12 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Did they want to go through it when Nixon was impeached? Forcing the Republican party to own the stuff Trump does, as they'd either have to defend him or start separating themselves from him, and the way he acts could cause more of a rift in the party. Again, testifying under oath and seeing that information would be potent.
The Republicans now are a looooooooong way from the Republicans of '74.

Again... I hope you're right. If you believe absolutely nothing else I say believe that. I'll eat all the crow in the world if it gets rid of Trump.

ETA: And let's not forget a Trump impeachment would be the second or even third impeachment a lot of the voting public would be going through in their lifetime and neither of those was pleasant or fun. When Nixon was impeached we hadn't done it... I ain't going to do the math a long ass time.
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Old 31st July 2019, 01:33 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Do you think anyone from the IRS will have to go to prison, when it turns out that they could have prevented a Trump presidency by actually doing their job and auditing an example of money laundering so obvious that any rando off the street could pick up on it if they just saw his tax returns?
Jesus, theprestige. Could you have fit more nonsensical ******** into one statement? Do you think "randos" would be looking at his taxes or do you think they'd hire people with relevant knowledge?

If people from the IRS looked at it and willfully overlooked it? Yes. I think they should go to jail. Do I think that happened? I don't know how granular they get but we can find out. I know that there is no way they're going to catch all of the fraud that happens on taxes in a year.

ETA: I also know Trump is working pretty damn hard to keep eyes off of the taxes and people have testified to him being shady. There is easily enough cause, as AOC established in her questioning of Cohen, to dig into them as much as possible.
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Old 31st July 2019, 02:08 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Right now the only group in power talking about Impeachment are lame duck Democrats.
Correct, but the reason for their hesitancy is the same mistake Democrats always make: they're worried about polling, optics, etc. The Democrats tight-lipped at the moment on impeachment are only holding out because they're worried about re-election by this mythical centrist voter. They don't get that mobilizing their base (which actually does represent mainstream views on a lot of issues) is the key.

This is not what Republicans do to get stuff done. They stake out some space and then proclaim to the voters "this is where you should be if you love America!" All the voters shout "YEAH!" and stampede to that position. It's the reason they get their constituents to vote for stuff they don't actually want.

Imagine if Democrats came out with a full-throated "We're Democrats and we're the real patriots because x, y, and z. If you want to defeat the enemies of America, then join us in this fight, etc."

It was the mealy-mouthed, hand-wringing safety of seeking the middle that led to the Hillary Clinton campaign and, ultimately of course, to President Trump. Pussy-footing around on impeachment is straight out of the losing Democratic playbook.
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Old 31st July 2019, 02:10 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I think it's imperative that the Dems either take the White House or make major gains in the Senate in 2020 or they are gonna impeach Trump all the way into a Dictatorship gift wrapped for him.

Impeachment is nothing (worse then nothing since there will be a backlash) without conviction and a conviction would require getting 2/3s of a 53-45 Republican majority Senate to vote against the President. Not going to happen and it will hand jump a major victory narrative to role into 2020 with.

I get that I'm like the lone voice in this but an impeachment that goes nowhere is more dangerous then no impeachment at all.
Sadly, the Dems seem determined to hand Trump reelection on a silver platter.
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Old 31st July 2019, 02:12 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Correct, but the reason for their hesitancy is the same mistake Democrats always make: they're worried about polling, optics, etc. The Democrats tight-lipped at the moment on impeachment are only holding out because they're worried about re-election by this mythical centrist voter. They don't get that mobilizing their base (which actually does represent mainstream views on a lot of issues) is the key.

This is not what Republicans do to get stuff done. They stake out some space and then proclaim to the voters "this is where you should be if you love America!" All the voters shout "YEAH!" and stampede to that position. It's the reason they get their constituents to vote for stuff they don't actually want.

Imagine if Democrats came out with a full-throated "We're Democrats and we're the real patriots because x, y, and z. If you want to defeat the enemies of America, then join us in this fight, etc."

It was the mealy-mouthed, hand-wringing safety of seeking the middle that led to the Hillary Clinton campaign and, ultimately of course, to President Trump. Pussy-footing around on impeachment is straight out of the losing Democratic playbook.

A variation on "Who Needs Moderates and Centrists"?
Keep that up, you are doing Trump a huge favor.
The Dems now have their own version of the Tea Party, sadly.
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Old 31st July 2019, 02:15 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
A variation on "Who Needs Moderates and Centrists"?
Keep that up, you are doing Trump a huge favor.
The Dems now have their own version of the Tea Party, sadly.
Is there anything the Dems can do that WON'T be considered, by you, to be doing Trump a huge favor? It would appear there are certain members of this forum that have made up their mind. There is nothing the Dems will do that's right.

Thank God, that's really helping the cause. What a joke.
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Old 31st July 2019, 02:35 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Is there anything the Dems can do that WON'T be considered, by you, to be doing Trump a huge favor?
Here's my list:
- Ignore Trump.
- Dismiss attempts to make the campaign about Trump as a distraction.
- Run on the issues. What issues? Any issues. If you have a policy to propose, do that.
- Talk to Americans about their concerns. Not to Democrats. Not to Republicans. Americans.

That last one is tricky, but if you can figure it out, you'll crush Trump in the general regardless of whether you're a (D) or an (R).

Dunno how that helps you get the nomination, though.

Probably your best bet is to run the standard primary "more extreme than the rest of them" primary playbook. And then when Trump tries to throw that back in your face:
- Ignore Trump
- Dismiss attempts to make the campaign about Trump as a distraction.

I figure, a good chunk of the electorate won't remember what you said to win the primaries anyway. Another good chunk will understand that what you said was just political expedience. Another good chunk will start out suspicious but be brought around by:
- Run on the issues. What issues? Any issues. If you have a policy to propose, do that.
- Talk to Americans about their concerns. Not to Democrats. Not to Republicans. Americans.

Add it all up, and I think the total comes out to... a violent kick in the crotch for Donald Trump in 2020.
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Old 31st July 2019, 02:36 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Is there anything the Dems can do that WON'T be considered, by you, to be doing Trump a huge favor?
Clearly, actually doing him favors would qualify.
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Old 31st July 2019, 03:46 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's the only strategy that isn't political suicide....
Not everyone believes this GOP narrative, you know.
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Old 31st July 2019, 03:50 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Not everyone believes this GOP narrative, you know.
Yes. Everything that isn't the Dem party line (not even the Dem Party line but basically the "Dems with nothing to lose" Party Line) is automatically the GOP Party line.

*Puts on my Maga Hat, NRA shirt, and... and... I have no idea what kind of pants Republicans wear*
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Old 31st July 2019, 03:50 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Sadly, the Dems seem determined to hand Trump reelection on a silver platter.
It's a year and a half until the election.

What a premature conclusion this is.
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Old 31st July 2019, 03:52 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yes. Everything that isn't the Dem party line (not even the Dem Party line but basically the "Dems with nothing to lose" Party Line) is automatically the GOP Party line.

*Puts on my Maga Hat, NRA shirt, and... and... I have no idea what kind of pants Republicans wear*
Just because it's a GOP narrative doesn't mean others aren't repeating it. That's the point of injecting the narrative into public discourse, to influence how people view a thing.
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Old 31st July 2019, 03:54 PM   #109
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I'm don't give a **** about "narratives." Narratives aren't a thing. Reality is the narrative, it doesn't have a separate distinct story being written on top of it.
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Old 31st July 2019, 04:01 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Here's my list:
- Ignore Trump.
- Dismiss attempts to make the campaign about Trump as a distraction.
- Run on the issues. What issues? Any issues. If you have a policy to propose, do that.
- Talk to Americans about their concerns. Not to Democrats. Not to Republicans. Americans.

That last one is tricky, but if you can figure it out, you'll crush Trump in the general regardless of whether you're a (D) or an (R).

Dunno how that helps you get the nomination, though.

Probably your best bet is to run the standard primary "more extreme than the rest of them" primary playbook. And then when Trump tries to throw that back in your face:
- Ignore Trump
- Dismiss attempts to make the campaign about Trump as a distraction.

I figure, a good chunk of the electorate won't remember what you said to win the primaries anyway. Another good chunk will understand that what you said was just political expedience. Another good chunk will start out suspicious but be brought around by:
- Run on the issues. What issues? Any issues. If you have a policy to propose, do that.
- Talk to Americans about their concerns. Not to Democrats. Not to Republicans. Americans.

Add it all up, and I think the total comes out to... a violent kick in the crotch for Donald Trump in 2020.
...Nancy?
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Old 31st July 2019, 04:01 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Two-way street, evidently.

I'm not predicting what House Dems will do, I'm suggesting the route they should take to pursue impeachment while minimizing backlash of partisanship.
Then you have changed your argument. You originally stated that impeachment was mandated by the constitution and that there is precedent for this.

Now you are only saying that congress is morally obliged to impeach. It turns out that the "precedent" was Bill Clinton. If you think that was anything other than base politics by a Republican dominated congress then you should have your stock broker examine the shares in the Brooklyn bridge that you bought.
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Old 31st July 2019, 04:05 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I think there is value in this, even though we know Republicans won't vote to convict.
There is - for the Republicans. An impeachment trial in the Senate won't focus on Trump's misdeeds. It will instead focus on the sore losers who are trying all the tricks in the book to deny Trump the presidency. It will be a massive boost for Trump come 2020.
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Old 31st July 2019, 04:06 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Correct, but the reason for their hesitancy is the same mistake Democrats always make: they're worried about polling, optics, etc. The Democrats tight-lipped at the moment on impeachment are only holding out because they're worried about re-election by this mythical centrist voter. They don't get that mobilizing their base (which actually does represent mainstream views on a lot of issues) is the key.

This is not what Republicans do to get stuff done. They stake out some space and then proclaim to the voters "this is where you should be if you love America!" All the voters shout "YEAH!" and stampede to that position. It's the reason they get their constituents to vote for stuff they don't actually want.

Imagine if Democrats came out with a full-throated "We're Democrats and we're the real patriots because x, y, and z. If you want to defeat the enemies of America, then join us in this fight, etc."

It was the mealy-mouthed, hand-wringing safety of seeking the middle that led to the Hillary Clinton campaign and, ultimately of course, to President Trump. Pussy-footing around on impeachment is straight out of the losing Democratic playbook.
Listen you're preaching to the choir. The Dems being Milquetoast goobers who can't say water is wet without running it through a focus group is the very reason a madman talked his way into the White House.

The one thing Trump understands in that deformed misplaced third testicle that passes for his brain is there was a sizable number of Americans who thought "Insult me, lie to me, just don't be a pussy."

The problem, and I get a feeling this is where we are going to start to differ, is that I see a HUGE (YUGE even) difference between "Be more assertive" and "Just be more Democrat."

The Dems are on the majority of American's side on most things. Most Americans want abortions to be legal, most Americans want gay marriage to be legal, most Americans want paths for citizenship for immigrants, most Americans agree Trump needs to wear longer ties, etc. So you know they could just do those things but.... like with some balls instead of jumping into their unpopular pet projects.
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Old 31st July 2019, 04:07 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
A variation on "Who Needs Moderates and Centrists"?
Centrist in the US = center/right, ignoring huge segments of the population to the left of "almighty dollar, but slightly less of a jerk about it." This is why voters don't show up. This is why so many people said in 2016 "they're both bad" and either stayed home or voted for the weird guy.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Keep that up, you are doing Trump a huge favor.
How so? There's no way his cult isn't showing up at the polls no matter what. You can't mobilize his base, it's pre-mobilized and immune to reason.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The Dems now have their own version of the Tea Party, sadly.
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Old 31st July 2019, 04:20 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
...Nancy?
Grace, Reagan, Pelosi, or Drew?
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Old 31st July 2019, 06:08 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Grace, Reagan, Pelosi, or Drew?
Pelosi.

I don't find your advise crazy, but as a whole the Dems currently in government can't ignore the President and his administration's continuing crimes and malfeasance. Even limiting it to just elections (a quick check of the thread title confirms that this line of discussion might be better suited for another thread), they can't completely ignore him, but they shouldn't get stuck chasing down every claim or outrage he throws out.

Running largely on the issues (like with the historic gains in the midterms) can work, especially on things like healthcare. It also would likely work with wages and the economy, because you can't actually lie to most people and tell them they are doing good. They know that they aren't doing good. It happens to them every day, and no matter how the GOP could crow about Wallstreet, they know that metric has almost nothing to do with how they are doing.

Some policies need a contrast too. Running on 'we won't break the law to waste money, burnout our employees, and be stupidly cruel to refugees' doesn't make sense without pointing out that this is currently what is happening.
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Old 31st July 2019, 11:01 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm don't give a **** about "narratives." Narratives aren't a thing. Reality is the narrative, it doesn't have a separate distinct story being written on top of it.
Oh my! Yes they are real things.

For example where's your evidence that impeachment proceedings will benefit Trump? Who are you repeating? Who benefits from injecting the narrative out there that impeachment will hurt the Democrats?

The news media have implied Nancy Pelosi believes that, yet she never directly said it. But even if she did, where did she get her information from? I believe she said at one point she believed Trump wanted the impeachment because he could use it against the Democrats. I think if you look a little closer you'll find Trump is afraid of impeachment proceedings. He spouts bravado of course, but that isn't truthful.
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Old 31st July 2019, 11:08 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Then you have changed your argument. You originally stated that impeachment was mandated by the constitution and that there is precedent for this.

Now you are only saying that congress is morally obliged to impeach. It turns out that the "precedent" was Bill Clinton. If you think that was anything other than base politics by a Republican dominated congress then you should have your stock broker examine the shares in the Brooklyn bridge that you bought.
Everyone keeps repeating this false equivalence.

Ken Starr hunted and hunted for something to get on Clinton and finally got an unrelated thing to what he started with.

Trump and his family are corrupt, the Russians helped him get elected, and an investigation has turned up multiple attempts at obstructing the investigation.

There is no political equivalence here except the Republicans in the Senate are protecting Trump.
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Old 31st July 2019, 11:13 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
There is - for the Republicans. An impeachment trial in the Senate won't focus on Trump's misdeeds. It will instead focus on the sore losers who are trying all the tricks in the book to deny Trump the presidency. It will be a massive boost for Trump come 2020.
And before that time, during the House investigation, the Democrats will plaster Trump's crimes over and over in the media.

What makes you think the false narrative (GOP'S) will be more influential in the long run?

And you know what? I believe it was Buttigieg who said, the GOP will do all that if the Democrats move to impeach and guess what? The GOP will do all that if the Democrats don't move to impeach. He's absolutely right.
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Old 31st July 2019, 11:37 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And before that time, during the House investigation, the Democrats will plaster Trump's crimes over and over in the media.

What makes you think the false narrative (GOP'S) will be more influential in the long run?

And you know what? I believe it was Buttigieg who said, the GOP will do all that if the Democrats move to impeach and guess what? The GOP will do all that if the Democrats don't move to impeach. He's absolutely right.
This is the reason why I don't belive there's any real risk to impeaching Trump. I do think there's a risk in not doing it, as that would piss of a lot of the voters who came out in 2018. People want Trump to be held accountable. The reason polling for impeachment is low (it's growing) is that the narrative of how dangerous it would be for Democrats is being fed by mainly centrists and Republicans.

I think the Democrats either impeach Trump, or they lose in 2020.
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